Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00AND IT ALSO HELPS ME BRAINSTORM
00:00:01WHEN WHEN I'M STUCK MY WRITING,
00:00:04I SOMETIMES LIKE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT WRITER'S BLOCK
00:00:08AND I GET STUCK SOMETIMES AND I
00:00:12JUST GO AND I MAKE A QUILT AND AS I'M QUILTING, I'M WORKING MY
00:00:16ESSAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE I WAS WRITING HORROR STORY.
00:00:20YEAH, IT'S A BRAIDED ESSAY. I WAS GETTING REALLY STUCK WITH
00:00:23THE SECTIONS I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ORDER IT. AND THEN I STARTED MAKING A
00:00:28QUILT WHERE ALL THE I WAS USING
00:00:30PURPLE AS A THEME AND SO
00:00:33DIFFERENT SHADES OF PURPLE, DIFFERENT FABRIC THAT HAD
00:00:36DIFFERENT TEXTURES AND PRINTS BUT THEY WERE DIFFERENT SHADES
00:00:39OF PURPLE AS I WAS ARRANGING MY LITTLE SQUARES ON MY QUILT, I
00:00:45REALIZE THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO DO WITH THE ESSAY.
00:00:47OH, I'M MAKING A QUILT, THAT ESSAY.
00:00:50AND SO IT'S LIKE, WHAT'S THE
00:00:54THEME THAT'S THAT'S BRINGING ALL
00:00:54THESE LITTLE SQUARES TOGETHER. AND SO THEN AFTER I MADE MY
00:00:59QUILT, I WENT AND I FIXED THE ESSAY, THEN IT WORKED.
00:01:16MOBILE APP, OR ONLINE AT C-SPAN.ORG.
00:01:24♪
00:01:43>> IN YOUR NEW BOOK, REGIME
00:01:46CHANGE, YOU DESCRIBE PRESIDENT
00:01:47TRUMP AS "THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL
00:01:50PRESIDENT OF OUR LIFETIMES."
00:01:59>> IT SEEMS PRETTY INDISPUTABLE. WE ARE COVERING A PRESIDENCY
00:02:03COMPLETELY UNRECOGNIZABLE TO TERM ONE.
00:02:07WE CANNOT THINK OF A HISTORICAL ANALOGUE OF ANOTHER AMERICAN
00:02:10PRESIDENT USING POWER THIS WAY. EXPANDING POWER THIS WAY.
00:02:15IGNORING AN EXTREMELY PLIANT
00:02:18BRANCH OF CONGRESS, LARGELY IGNORING THE SENATE.
00:02:24HE HAS USED THREATS AND BULLYING OF VARIOUS INDUSTRIES.
00:02:26HE HAS SHOWN THE POST-WORLD WAR
00:02:30II WORLD ORDER IS ON ITS LAST
00:02:33LEGS, IF IT WILL SURVIVE AT ALL AND WE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.
00:02:38I CANNOT THINK OF A MORE CONSEQUENTIAL AND IMPACTFUL PERSON OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.
00:02:43I THINK YOU WILL BE, BASED ON EVERYTHING WE KNOW, GOING
00:02:47FORWARD FOR YEARS TO COME.
00:02:53>> THE PREMISE OF THE TITLE WAS,
00:02:55WE EARLY ON COVERING THIS SECOND
00:02:58TERM FELT LIKE WE WERE COVERING A FORM OF REGIME CHANGE IN OUR
00:03:02OWN COUNTRY. WE WERE SO USED TO TALKING ABOUT
00:03:04REGIME CHANGE OVERSEAS AND IT IS
00:03:08WRITTEN ABOUT ALL THE TIME USUALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF,
00:03:11SHOULD THE U.S. BE INVOLVED IN TRYING TO BRING ABOUT REGIME
00:03:14CHANGE OVERSEAS.
00:03:16IT IS MUCH MORE UNCOMFORTABLE
00:03:21AND MORE CHALLENGING TO COVER IT WHEN IT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.
00:03:28JUST TO GO A LITTLE DEEPER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WAY HE HAS USED
00:03:32POWER AND COMPARE IT TO HIS RECENT PREDECESSORS, IT IS QUITE STRIKING.
00:03:42TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, FOREIGN POLICY. WHEN GEORGE H.W. BUSH WENT
00:03:46THROUGH SECURITY COUNCIL, THERE WAS CONGRESS, THE BRANCH OF
00:03:50CONGRESS -- GOVERNMENT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION RESPONSIBLE FOR DECLARING WORK.
00:03:54THEN THEY WENT TO WORK.
00:03:58WHEN HIS SON TOOK AMERICA TO WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, IT WENT TO CONGRESS.
00:04:02TRUMP DID NOT TALK TO CONGRESS BEFORE HE TOOK AMERICA TO WAR IN IRAN.
00:04:06HE DIDN'T TALK TO CONGRESS BEFORE HE AUTHORIZED DELTA
00:04:10FORCED TO GO TO TAKE CARE OF
00:04:11HEAD OF STATE AND REGIME CHANGE
00:04:16IN VENEZUELA. HE UNILATERALLY STARTED A GLOBAL
00:04:18TRADE WORTH AND ONE THING WE READ ABOUT IN THE BOOK THAT I
00:04:22THINK IT IS -- AN IMPORTANT
00:04:24DYNAMIC IS EVEN WHEN HE IS
00:04:27CHECKED BY THE SUPREME COURT,
00:04:30AND THAT IS REALLY THE ONLY
00:04:32INSTITUTION THAT HAS SHOWN ANY
00:04:34ABILITY TO CHECK IN, THE ONLY INSTITUTION THEY HAVE REALLY
00:04:37RESPECTED, IT TAKES A WHILE.
00:04:41THE FACTS ON THE GROUND GET
00:04:44CHANGED IN THE COURT SYSTEM, NOT BUILT FOR SOMEONE LIKE DONALD
00:04:47TRUMP WHO ACTS QUICKLY ON MANY FRONTS, NOT REALLY BUILT FOR HIM. THE TRADE WAR IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.
00:04:54HE USED TARIFF AUTHORITY AS THE
00:04:56SUPREME COURT DEEMED LEGITIMATE, BUT A LOT OF ECONOMIC TURMOIL
00:05:00AND CHAOS WAS UNLEASHED BEFORE
00:05:04THE PROCESS COULD CATCH UP TO DONALD TRUMP.
00:05:08PETER: HIS AND HIS ACTIONS IN
00:05:12THE SECOND TERM A REACTION TO WHAT HE LEARNED IN HIS FIRST TERM?
00:05:17MAGGIE: LARGELY, YEAH.
00:05:21THIS HAS BECOME CLEAR TO US. WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT AND
00:05:24REPORTING ON THIS BOOK IN 2023. AT THAT POINT, WE WERE IN THE
00:05:28MIDDLE OF A PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN
00:05:31WHICH DONALD TRUMP WAS INDICTED FOUR TIMES.
00:05:34HE WAS BEING SUED IN CIVIL COURT
00:05:37FOR FRAUD BY THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL AND BY A NEW
00:05:41YORK WRITER WHO HAD ACCUSED HIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE.
00:05:48HE WAS WRITTEN OFF BY A LOT OF
00:05:49HIS PARTY, EXCEPT FOR THE MOST
00:05:53HARDENED MEMBERS OF THE PARTY
00:05:59WHO REALIZED IN ORDER TO WIN PRIMARIES.
00:06:01HE DIDN'T ACT AS A PARIAH.
00:06:05THEY WERE HOPING TO NONPERSON HIM. HE WAS KICKED OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA WEBSITES.
00:06:11HE IS ALSO UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS LAST TERM.
00:06:16IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL -- HE WAS
00:06:21FIRED AS FBI DIRECTOR. THAT DEARLY -- IMPACTED A LOT OF
00:06:25WHAT HE DID GOING FORWARD. THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HAD NEVER
00:06:27RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL, SO MUCH AS PRESIDENT BEFORE. AND HE WINS THE FIRST TIME.
00:06:32HE HAS A THEORY OF THE CASE IN
00:06:33HIS MIND OF HOW EXECUTIVE POWER
00:06:37WORKS.
00:06:37IT LOOKS MUCH MORE LIKE A
00:06:42DEMOCRATIC PARTY MACHINE BOSS IN
00:06:44NEW YORK CITY, WHICH IS WHERE HE
00:06:46LEARNED ABOUT POWER AND BECAME THIS MULTI-DECADE STUDENT OF
00:06:50POWER THAN HE DOES WHAT WE HAVE
00:06:54SEEN OVER MANY YEARS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THE FEDERAL
00:06:58GOVERNMENT AND PROXIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN PLACE.
00:07:00WHAT HE AND A SMALL GROUP OF
00:07:03AIDS, STEPHEN MILLER, THE MOST POWERFUL DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER
00:07:06WE CAN THINK OF ARGUABLY OF THE
00:07:07LAST MANY DECADES, AND NOW THE
00:07:12HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, AND A HANDFUL OF
00:07:14OTHER ADVISORS, LOOK FOR POCKETS
00:07:16OF INDEPENDENCE THAT THEY COULD ELIMINATE.
00:07:20THEY LEARNED THEY COULD DECLARE, PARTICULARLY STEPHEN MILLER ON
00:07:23THIS ONE, IF YOU DECLARE
00:07:27EMERGENCIES, YOU CAN UNLOCK SWEEPING POWERS VERY QUICKLY. THEY DO NOT GO THROUGH THE
00:07:32PROCESS OF THE AGENCY.
00:07:36AND THEY LEARNED THE TERM LOYALTY. THAT IS A REALLY KEY FACTOR WE
00:07:40WRITE ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
00:07:45TRUMP WAS STYMIED THROUGHOUT HIS TERM IN TERM ONE BY A FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY HE NOT UNDERSTAND.
00:07:52HE WAS CONVINCED, AND SOMETIMES THERE WERE PEOPLE TRYING TO SLOW
00:07:55DOWN ACTIONS HE WAS TAKING, BUT
00:07:57HE ALSO WAS INFURIATED BY
00:08:02SENIOR-LEVEL AIDES LIKE JOHN KELLY OR JIM MATTIS, WHO REALLY
00:08:06OPPOSED HIS WORLD AND BELIEVED OF THE COUNTRY NEEDED TO BE
00:08:09PROTECTED FROM TRUMP. ALL OF THESE LESSONS COMBINED
00:08:12WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS
00:08:14PERIOD INFORMED THIS PRESIDENCY
00:08:18USA NOW. I WANT TO ADD TO WHAT JONATHAN WAS SAYING ABOUT CONGRESS.
00:08:22NOT TAKING ANY OF THESE POLICY MATTERS TO CONGRESS FOR A VOTE.
00:08:26CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO ENGAGE IN OVERSIGHT.
00:08:29THIS IS A CONGRESS WITH VERY
00:08:33RARE EXCEPTIONS, EPSTEIN,
00:08:34JEFFREY EPSTEIN, THE PRESIDENT'S
00:08:38PERSONAL MONEYMAKING, THIS
00:08:43CONGRESS HAS GENERALLY -- TREATS
00:08:46ITSELF AS SOMETHING OF AN APPENDAGE TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
00:08:48PETER: WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT PERSONAL MONEYMAKING?
00:08:52MAGGIE: THIS PRESIDENT, FAMILY
00:08:56MEMBERS, AND SOME MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION, HAVE MADE A LOT
00:08:59OF PERSONAL WEALTH DURING THE COURSE OF HIS PRESIDENCY.
00:09:02PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS SON,
00:09:07STEVE WITKOFF, SET UP A
00:09:13CRYPTOCURRENCY COMPANY IN 2024, WHICH IS UNHEARD OF TO DO IN THE
00:09:16MIDDLE OF A CAMPAIGN. WHENEVER THOSE CONVERSATIONS
00:09:20STARTED, IT GETS UNVEILED IN THE FALL OF 2024 AND AS PRESIDENT
00:09:22TRUMP IS TAKING ACTIONS INVOLVING REGULATING THAT VERY
00:09:28INDUSTRY, THERE WAS A SECRET DEAL THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
00:09:33UNEARTHED WHERE FOREIGN
00:09:36NATIONALS FROM THE GULF NATIONS,
00:09:37ONE IN PARTICULAR, TOOK A 49%
00:09:40STAKE IN THE COMPANY A FEW DAYS
00:09:44BEFORE THE INAUGURATION.
00:09:48THERE HAVE BEEN PRESIDENTIAL RELATIVES WHO HAVE MADE MONEY
00:09:51AND EMBARRASSED WHITE --
00:09:56EMBARRASSED WHITE HOUSES. HUNTER BIDEN IS AN OBVIOUS EXAMPLE. THERE WERE VARIOUS BUSH FAMILY
00:10:00MEMBERS WHO HAD PROBLEMS. THIS IS A SCALE UNLIKE ANYTHING WE'VE EVER SEEN.
00:10:05TO LISTEN TO REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS, YOU WOULD THINK IT IS NOT HAPPENING.
00:10:13PETER: IS THERE SOMETHING ILLEGAL GOING ON IN YOUR VIEW? JONATHAN SWAN?
00:10:15JONATHAN: IT IS AN INTERESTING
00:10:18QUESTION BECAUSE TRUMP HIMSELF WAS GRANTED SWEEPING IMMUNITY AS
00:10:21ALL PRESIDENTS WERE WITH THE SUPREME COURT IMMUNITY WORLD --
00:10:23RULING IN 2024.
00:10:27TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY BEYOND THE
00:10:29REACH IN TERMS OF ACTIONS.
00:10:31IT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED. SO WE DO NOT EXACTLY KNOW WHAT
00:10:35THE BOUNDARIES ARE, BUT IT IS
00:10:38HARD TO IMAGINE SOMETHING HE HAS
00:10:40DONE SO FAR THAT WOULD DEFY THE BOUNDS OF THAT RULING.
00:10:44WE ALSO HAVE REPORTING IN THE
00:10:46BOOK THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS TOLD
00:10:49SENIOR ADVISERS IN THE OVAL OFFICE THAT HE IS GOING TO
00:10:52PARDON ANYONE WHO CAME WITHIN
00:10:56250 FEET OF THE OVAL OFFICE. HE SOMETIMES SAYS 200 FEET,
00:11:01SOMETIMES 29 FEET. SOME NUMBER OF FEET.
00:11:03SO THERE IS A SENSE AMONG TRUMP
00:11:07AND HIS ALLIES IN HIS INNER CIRCLE THAT, WITH A VERY
00:11:12FRIENDLY JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RUN BY TRUMP'S OWN FORMER PERSONAL
00:11:15LAWYER, WITH SWEEPING IMMUNITY
00:11:16FROM THE SUPREME COURT, WITH AN
00:11:19INTENTION TO USE PARDON POWER
00:11:20MORE EXTENSIVELY POTENTIALLY
00:11:23THAN ANY PRESIDENT HAS EVER USED IT, I DO NOT THINK THEY FEEL ANY
00:11:27REAL CONCERN ABOUT ILLEGALITY.
00:11:31PETER: WHAT IS THE RULE -- ROLE
00:11:38OF BORIS EPSTEIN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIFE?
00:11:39MAGGIE: IT IS A GREAT QUESTION.
00:11:44A LOT OF REPORTING ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN IN THE BOOK.
00:11:49--TRUMP HISTORICALLY LIKES
00:11:54HAVING PEOPLE AROUND WHO WILL
00:11:56FIX A PROBLEM, WHETHER IT IS
00:11:59STEPHEN MILLER WHO SAYS I CAN GET THIS DONE REALLY FAST,
00:12:02WHETHER IT IS PEOPLE WHO WORK
00:12:04FOR TRUMP AND HIS COMPANY, WHO
00:12:07WILL TALK TO AN OFFICIAL, OR AN
00:12:10ELECTED OFFICIAL WITH WHOM TRUMP
00:12:14IS ENGAGING ON A PROJECT, BORIS
00:12:17EPSTEIN -- BORIS EPSHTEYN IS NOT
00:12:30A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE BUT IS AT THE WHITE HOUSE A LOT.
00:12:33WE LEARNED TRUMP, AS PART OF HIS
00:12:38RETRIBUTION AGENDA, AND WE WILL
00:12:43TALK ABOUT THIS, HE HAS A LIST
00:12:43OF PEOPLE WHO HE BELIEVES ARE
00:12:49HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES AND HE WANTS HIS POWERS TO GO TO.
00:12:52BEING A DRIVING FACTOR IN THIS
00:12:56ADMINISTRATION IS PAYBACK AND THE FEELING THEY WERE PROSECUTED
00:12:59UNFAIRLY, TRUMP AND HIS ADVISORS .
00:13:05TRUMP SAID IT HIMSELF. I WAS THE HUNTED AND NOW I AM THE HUNTER.
00:13:13THERE IS A REMARKABLE MOMENT
00:13:14WHERE BORIS EPSHTEYN IS THERE AN
00:13:18STEPHEN MILLER IS THERE. AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
00:13:22VARIOUS THINGS AND THEY START
00:13:23TALKING ABOUT CHRIS KREBS, WHO
00:13:26RAN THE CYBER SECURITY AGENCY
00:13:29THAT OVERSAW THE AGENCY IN 2020
00:13:31AND IN TRUMP'S MIND, HIS SIN WAS SAYING ELECTION SYSTEMS WERE SAFE.
00:13:35TRUMP CANNOT EVEN REMEMBER HIS NAME. WHO WAS THAT GUY?
00:13:38BORIS EPSHTEYN LOOKS HIM UP AND IT IS CHRIS KREBS.
00:13:42AND THEN THERE IS A PRESIDENTIAL
00:13:44MEMORANDA TARGETING CHRIS KREBS DIRECTLY THAT TRUMP READS OUT
00:13:48DURING AN OVAL OFFICE EVENT.
00:13:52THAT SPOKE TO HOW AD HOC A LOT OF THIS IS, BUT IT WAS REALLY
00:13:55REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS INSIDE
00:13:56OUTSIDE GAME -- NOT GAME,
00:14:00APPROACH, THAT TRUMP PASSED. IN TERMS OF TARGETING
00:14:04INDUSTRIES. STEPHEN MILLER IS ON THE INSIDE.
00:14:09HE OVERSEES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
00:14:16OF POLICY, EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHAT ULTIMATELY WILL GO THROUGH
00:14:19THE PAPER OFFICE AND THEN TRUMP'S DESK.
00:14:23BORIS EPSHTEYN HANDLES THE OUTSIDE CASE.
00:14:26BORIS EPSHTEYN, AT LEAST WE DEMONSTRATE IN ONE SCENE, HE CAN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF ABOUT HOW HE
00:14:30WOULD CHARACTERIZE IT, WORKS OR
00:14:32HAS WORKED WITH BOB, WHO IS WITH
00:14:38A STORIED FIRM REPRESENTING
00:14:40TRUMP IN HIS APPEAL OF HIS
00:14:43CRIMINAL CONDITION IN 2024, AND ONE OF THE AREAS YOU SEE THE
00:14:47INSIDE OUTSIDE FACTOR WAS EARLY
00:14:49ON WITH EXECUTIVE OR --
00:14:53EXECUTIVE ORDERS TARGETING LAW FIRMS, WHICH HAS NOT FARED WELL,
00:14:58BUT THEY DID ENOUGH DAMAGE TO
00:14:59THESE FIRMS IN TERMS OF PR OR
00:15:02THEIR ABILITY TO REPRESENT CLIENTS. WHAT WE TRIED REPORTING IN THE
00:15:07BOOK WAS LAYING OUT HOW TRUMP
00:15:10USES THESE VARIOUS LEVERS TO HSN
00:15:15ESSENTIALLY A BULLYING CAMPAIGN, WHETHER AGAINST PEOPLE HE DOESN'T LIKE, INDUSTRIES LIKE
00:15:20MEDIA, ABC NEWS, CBS, AND
00:15:25OTHERS.
00:15:28THEY HAVE FOUND WAYS WHERE IF THERE IS SOME KIND OF GOVERNMENT
00:15:30OVERSIGHT OR LEVER OVER
00:15:36EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, HARVARD, AND WE LAY THIS OUT,
00:15:39THEY ARE WILLING TO USE IT AND PRESS AND SQUEEZE.
00:15:44TRUMP HAS VARIOUS MECHANISMS HE HAS SHOWN HE HAS NO COMPUNCTION ABOUT DEPLOYING.
00:15:47PETER: HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU
00:15:51SPEND LOOKING AT THE LEGITIMACY
00:15:54OF SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GRIEVANCES?
00:15:56A LOT OF THIS CAN GO BACK TO
00:15:59RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA, IN 20, CAN'T IT?
00:16:02JONATHAN: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
00:16:05LAW FORMS -- LAW FIRMS THAT
00:16:10MAGGIE WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE GRIEVANCE WAS HIRING SOMEONE
00:16:15LIKE ROBERT MULLER, POINTED
00:16:16SPECIAL COUNSEL TO OVERSEE THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION.
00:16:21OR MARKET, WHO WAS HIRED TO HELP
00:16:23INVESTIGATE TRUMP IN NEW YORK. PEOPLE TRUMP DOESN'T LIKE.
00:16:32SO, THERE IS NOT A GREAT MYSTERY
00:16:34TO BE DISCERNED HERE ABOUT THE SELECTION PROCESS OF HOW THEY
00:16:37WENT AFTER VARIOUS LAW FIRMS. LAW FIRMS PEOPLE THAT ARE
00:16:41REPRESENTED PEOPLE HE DIDN'T LIKE LIKE JACK SMITH, APPOINTED
00:16:45AS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE TRUMP OVER
00:16:49CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, AND THE
00:16:54JANUARY 6 CONSPIRACY, OR BECAUSE THEY EMPLOY PEOPLE HE DIDN'T LIKE AND HE USED GOVERNMENT
00:16:58POWER TO COERCE THEM INTO MAKING
00:17:04SIGNIFICANT PRO BONO COMMITMENTS TO THE GOVERNMENT.
00:17:06PETER: I WANT TO QUOTE FROM A
00:17:10BOOK ABOUT DECISION-MAKING PROCESS, DAILY SCHEDULE.
00:17:12BY MIDWAY THROUGH THE YEAR, A PICTURE WAS EMERGING --
00:18:01PETER: HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE
00:18:06DECISION-MAKING PROCESS IN THE OVAL OFFICE?
00:18:07JONATHAN: WE WRITE THAT SORT OF,
00:18:11IT IS AN INTERESTING JUXTAPOSITION.
00:18:13WE WRITE THAT TIME IS A FLEXIBLE
00:18:16CONCEPT IN TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE. PREVIOUS PRESIDENT, GEORGE W.
00:18:19BUSH BEING ONE EXAMPLE AND BARACK OBAMA BEING ANOTHER, PREVIOUS PRESIDENCIES TO
00:18:23SCHEDULE THEIR TIME IN 10 OR 15 MINUTE INCREMENTS.
00:18:26THAT IS HOW ORGANIZED THEY WORK. THE ADAGE THAT A PRESIDENT'S
00:18:30MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY IS HIS TIME.
00:18:33THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE, TO THE OUTSIDE, LOOKS LIKE THIS HIVE OF
00:18:38ACTIVITY, AN INCREDIBLE MACHINE THAT IS JUST PUMPING OUT
00:18:42ACTIVITY. FOR PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY GO IN AND SEE HIM, IT CAN SEEM LIKE HE
00:18:46HAS ALL THE TIME OF THE WORLD. WHEN WE WENT IN TO SEE HIM FOR
00:18:50AN INTERVIEW MARCH 16, PERFECT
00:18:56EXAMPLE, UNHURRIED.
00:18:58IT WAS THE 17TH DAY DURESS AND
00:19:11STRESS AND WHATEVER. HE WAS THE PICTURE OF
00:19:15RELAXATION. WHEN WE WALKED INTO THE OVAL
00:19:18OFFICE, ON TOP OF THE RESOLUTE DESK WERE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MAPLE TREES.
00:19:22HE HELD IT UP AND SAID, I AM
00:19:25BUYING MAPLE TREES FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:19:26IT TURNS OUT I AM GOOD AT BUYING TREES.
00:19:29UNDERNEATH WERE MORE PICTURES OF
00:19:31HIS BALLROOM, BUT COLUMNS, HE
00:19:36SPENDS CONSIDERABLE AMOUNTS OF
00:19:38HIS TIME ON DECORATION, DESIGN,
00:19:43REBUILDING MONUMENTS, REFURBISHING WASHINGTON, D.C.
00:19:46THE MEETINGS ARE UNSTRUCTURED.
00:19:49AND ROLLING, AS WE SAY. THERE IS OFTEN A DELINEATED ENDPOINT.
00:19:55THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING ELSE WE WRITE IN THE BOOK.
00:19:58FOR IMPORTANT TOPICS, THINGS THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO KEEP
00:20:04SECRET, THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT KEEPING SECRETS, MUCH BETTER
00:20:08THAN THE FIRST TERM. I THINK PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND
00:20:11WHEN THEY READ THE BOOK IS, THIS
00:20:14IS NOTHING LIKE THE FIRST TERM.
00:20:16THIS COUNTRY IS BEING RUN BY FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE.
00:20:19A TINY GROUP.
00:20:23MOST PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT,
00:20:25EVEN AT A SENIOR LEVEL AT VARIOUS AGENCIES, STATE
00:20:29DEPARTMENT, PENTAGON, HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHAT IS BEING SAID
00:20:33IN THIS ROOM AND WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED AND PLANNED.
00:20:38SO WE TRY. ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS WE HAD
00:20:41TO ACCOMPLISH AS REPORTERS WITH THIS BOOK WAS BREAKING INTO
00:20:45THOSE ROOMS AND TRYING TO GET OUT THAT INFORMATION.
00:20:48IF THIS WAS THE FIRST TERM, IT WAS LIKE ANYONE COULD GET A LEAK.
00:20:52IT WAS LEAKING STORIES EVERY DAY.
00:20:56HE NOW HAS TRUE LOYALISTS AROUND
00:20:58HIM, AND THE LEAKING IS FAR LESS PREVALENT.
00:21:02PETER: YOU HAVE GOT THE CORE
00:21:06GROUP OF TRUMP INTIMATES AS YOU SAY.
00:21:09STEPHEN MILLER, MARCO RUBIO, JD VANCE, STEVE WITKOFF, NATALIE
00:21:13HARP, WHO MY MISSING ON THAT LIST?
00:21:16JONATHAN: PETE HEGSETH, JOHN
00:21:20RATCLIFFE. IT DOESN'T GO MUCH BEYOND THAT.
00:21:22MAGGIE: I WOULD NOT CALL ALL OF
00:21:27THEM INTIMATES.
00:21:30THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND CHRIS
00:21:32WRIGHT WHO TRUMP HAS AS THE
00:21:37ENERGY SECRETARY, TRENT HAS HAD A LUKEWARM APPROACH, THEY WERE
00:21:41NOT EVEN IN THESE MEETINGS THAT WE DESCRIBED ABOUT THE LEAD UP
00:21:45TO THE IRAN WAR. THE PEOPLE WHO MANAGE THE FALLOUT OF A GLOBAL ENERGY
00:21:48CRISIS FROM THIS WAR WERE NOT
00:21:51PART OF THE PLANNING MEETINGS, BECAUSE THIS WHITE HOUSE IS SO
00:21:54CONCERNED ABOUT LEAKS. .
00:21:59PETER: BUT THAT IS TYPICAL OF ANY WHITE HOUSE.
00:22:02MAGGIE: NOT LIKE THIS.
00:22:04JONATHAN: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
00:22:08THE TREASURY SECRETARY NOT INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE PLANNING
00:22:10MEETINGS TO TALK ABOUT THE POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ QUESTION MARK THAT IS
00:22:14NOT NORMAL. MAGGIE: THE CONCERN ABOUT LEAKS IS NOT UNUSUAL.
00:22:18IT IS THE EXTREME MEASURES THAT THEY TAKE TO TRY TO AVOID THEM,
00:22:22WHICH IS ALSO PART OF WHAT MADE REPORTING THIS, IN ADDITION TO
00:22:26THE FACT THAT JONATHAN SAID THIS IS NOT TERM ONE WHERE YOU HAD TO
00:22:30BE, TO PARAPHRASE A COLLEAGUE OF OURS, ABSENT YOUR SENSES TO NOT
00:22:33GET A STORY AT SOME POINT.
00:22:37BECAUSE THEY HAVE SET UP ALL OF THE EFFORTS TO TRY TO AVOID
00:22:40LEAKS, THIS WAS A REALLY HARD BOOK TO REPORT.
00:22:43WE ARE HUMBLE ABOUT THE FACT THERE IS PROBABLY MORE TO LEARN
00:22:46ABOUT CERTAIN EPISODES HERE, BUT THIS WAS OUR BEST ATTEMPT.
00:22:50PETER: "THOSE WHO KNEW HER WELL --
00:23:08PETER: WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
00:23:09MAGGIE: THAT WOULD BE SUSIE WILES.
00:23:13NOT MUCH TO ADD TO THE DESCRIPTION WE HAD IN THE BOOK. ONE THING ABOUT SUSIE WILES IS
00:23:16SHE WAS WITH TRUMP AT TRUMP'S
00:23:19LOWEST POINT, WHICH WAS 2021. BUT HE WAS WITH HER AND HER
00:23:23LOWEST POINT. AND I THINK THAT GETS MISSED IN
00:23:25TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING THE
00:23:29DYNAMIC BETWEEN THEM.
00:23:31IN 2018, AT TRUMP'S REQUEST,
00:23:33SUSIE WILES IS A LONGTIME FLORIDA OPERATIVE, LOBBYIST,
00:23:37VERY WELL KNOWN, HAS BIPARTISAN
00:23:41RESPECT AND ADMIRATION IN FLORIDA.
00:23:47SHE WAS VERY INVOLVED IN RICK
00:23:50SCOTT SENATE CAMPAIGN IN 2010, THE SAME TICKET MARCO RUBIO RAN ON.
00:23:53SO SHE HAS HAD A FIRSTHAND LOOK AT HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS
00:23:57CHANGED OVER TIME. SHE WAS NOT SOMEONE HE WOULD
00:24:01ORGANICALLY THINK ABOUT AS A
00:24:05FLAMETHROWER OF THE MAGA
00:24:09VARIETY. BUT SHE IS HARDER TO PUT IN A BOX THAN PEOPLE THINK.
00:24:13HOWEVER, JUST IN A NEAT CLEAN
00:24:14POLITICAL BATH -- BOX.
00:24:18BUT SHE HELPED RON DESANTIS SAVE
00:24:21WHAT WAS A FLAILING GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN. HE WON.
00:24:29DESANTIS STARTED TARGETING HER AND MAKING ACCUSATIONS ABOUT
00:24:33LEAKS AND MONEY, ALL OF WHICH HE
00:24:35DENIED, BUT DISSENT IS SET OUT TO TRY TO RUIN HER CAREER
00:24:39ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING AND ACCORDING TO PEOPLE IN FLORIDA.
00:24:42PETER: WHAT WAS THE ISSUE THEY HAD?
00:24:44MAGGIE: I DO NOT KNOW THAT WE
00:24:47WILL TOTALLY KNOW THE BREAKDOWN
00:24:49HERE, BUT WE KNOW THEY ACCUSED HER OF VARIOUS TYPES OF IMPROPRIETY.
00:24:55THE DESANTIS'S ARE PARANOID IN
00:24:58OUR EXPERIENCE OF COVERING THEM IN EVERYONE'S EXPERIENCE OF
00:25:01GOVERNING THEM. BUT SHE DID THAT AT TRUMP'S REQUEST.
00:25:06DESANTIS WENT AFTER WILES TO
00:25:10TRUMP AHEAD OF THE 2020 CAMPAIGN, SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T
00:25:14HIRE HER. SO TRUMP DID NOT. SOME MEMBERS OF TRUMP'S STAFF
00:25:18PROTESTED AND HE BROUGHT HER ON OVER OBJECTIONS.
00:25:22HE CREDITS SUSAN WILES WITH WHY
00:25:26HE WANTED 2016 AND HAS FOR A LONG TIME.
00:25:28THERE IS A FAMOUS STORY IN A
00:25:31SMALL STORY -- SMALL CIRCLE ABOUT HIM BEING PRETTY ABUSIVE
00:25:35TO HER ONE NIGHT IN OCTOBER 2016 IN FRONT OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE AND SHE TOOK IT AND DID NOT FLINCH IN HIS PRESENCE.
00:25:41PART OF THE WHOLE ICE MAIDEN THING.
00:25:46BUT HE STUCK BY HER OVER TO
00:25:48SANTOS'S OBJECTIONS TO 2020. IN EARLY 2021 WHEN HE ASKED HER
00:25:52TO RUN WHAT WAS A PRETTY SHAPELESS POST PRESIDENTIAL
00:25:56PERIOD AT MAR-A-LAGO, SHE SAID YES.
00:26:00IT WAS A TIME THAT MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO BE AROUND HIM FROM HIS OLD WORLD.
00:26:04EVERYONE NOW WOULD SAY I WAS
00:26:05ALWAYS WITH HIM, I NEVER LEFT, I
00:26:09ALWAYS BELIEVED HE WOULD WIN, AND WE CAN CONFIDENTLY TELL YOU THAT IS NOT TRUE.
00:26:16BUT SHE WAS WITH HIM AND SHE DID
00:26:18ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR PATH FOR WINNING.
00:26:21PETER: YOU STARTED THIS BOOK IN
00:26:242023 WHEN HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE. WHAT WAS THE SHAPE OF THE BOOK?
00:26:28DID YOU THINK HE WAS GOING TO WIN AGAIN? JONATHAN: I DID.
00:26:32SHE CAN VOUCH FOR THAT. MAGGIE: HE NEVER WAVERED ON IT.
00:26:35JONATHAN: BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER.
00:26:39WHEN WE DECIDED TO DO THE BOOK, WE DECIDED WE WANTED TO COVER
00:26:42THE FINAL ACT OF TRUMP, WHATEVER THAT ACT LOOK LIKE.
00:26:45SO THE BOOK EVOLVED A LOT. WE JUST STARTED REPORTING. THAT IS ALL WE COULD DO WAS TO
00:26:49REPORT. WASN'T GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN
00:26:53BOOK IF YOU LOST THE CAMPAIGN? COULD IT END WITH HIM GOING TO
00:26:57PRISON? WE WERE JUST FOLLOWING A STORY WITH AN OPEN MIND AS TO WHERE COULD GO.
00:27:02WE HAVE BOTH COVERED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME. THIS IS MY 11TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR
00:27:06OF TRUMP -- COVERING DONALD TRUMP.
00:27:08MAGGIE HAS COVERED HIM WITHIN THAT. SO WE JUST FOLLOW THE STORY.
00:27:12WHEN HE GOT INTO POWER, CAME
00:27:15BACK TO THE PRESIDENCY, I WOULD SAY ABOUT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS
00:27:19IN, WE REALIZED THIS WAS A
00:27:23CONSEQUENTIAL FIRST YEAR OF A PRESIDENCY LIKE NOTHING THAT HAS
00:27:26HAPPENED IN OUR LIFETIME, THAT THE FOCUS OF THE BOOK REALLY
00:27:29NEEDED TO BE HIS RETURN TO THE PRESIDENCY. WE MADE A PRETTY PAINFUL
00:27:35DECISION, WHICH STILL HURTS ME
00:27:38DEEP INSIDE, WHICH WAS, WE
00:27:45JETTISONED, WE THROUGHOUT, METAPHORICALLY, IT STILL EXISTS
00:27:48SOMEWHERE, THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF REPORTING AND WORK FROM ABOUT A
00:27:51YEAR AND A HALF ALL THROUGH
00:27:582024.
00:28:00THIS IS US WORKING, KILLING
00:28:04OURSELVES, TONS OF BEHIND-THE-SCENES STUFF, BECAUSE WE DECIDED THAT REPORTING JUST
00:28:08DID NOT MEET THE BAR THAT WE WANTED. THE ONLY MATERIAL YOU WILL FIND
00:28:12IN THE BOOK FROM THE 2024
00:28:14PERIOD IS THE MATERIAL WE FEEL HELPS ILLUMINATE WHAT WE ARE
00:28:18LIVING THROUGH THROUGH THIS PRESIDENCY.
00:28:20WE WERE INCREDIBLY RUTHLESS ABOUT WHAT WE DID AND DID NOT INCLUDE.
00:28:25SO THE CUTTING ROOM, EVERY BOOK HAS A BIG CUTTING ROOM FLOOR.
00:28:28MAGGIE: IT IS A PRETTY BIG ONE.
00:28:30JONATHAN: THIS WAS A PRETTY
00:28:33FREAKING WAREHOUSE OF THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR AND IT STILL
00:28:37HURTS ME AS YOU CAN SEE. PETER: YOU HAVE BOTH INTERVIEWED HIM IN THE PAST.
00:28:41BUT MIKE ASKED -- BUT MY GUESS
00:28:45IS YOU BOTH HAVE HIS CELL PHONE NUMBER.
00:28:48IF YOU CALLED, AND WE WILL NOT MAKE YOU DO IT, TRUST ME. MAGGIE: I WOULD NOT DO IT.
00:28:52PETER: WOULD YOU PICK UP?
00:28:55MAGGIE: -- WOULD HE PICK UP?
00:28:59MAGGIE: I DON'T THINK SO. MAYBE.
00:29:03WE PERSONALLY HAVE NOT TALKED TO HIM VERY MUCH RATHER THAN DAY-TO-DAY WHICH WE WRITE ABOUT.
00:29:07PETER: BECAUSE OF THE BOOK?
00:29:10MAGGIE: BECAUSE OF A COUPLE OF THINGS.
00:29:13WE MADE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO GET HIM TO SIT WITH US FOR THIS BOOK.
00:29:18IT DID NOT LOOK LIKE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND IT WAS
00:29:20BECOMING CLEAR TO US WE WERE
00:29:23GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO HIM
00:29:25DIRECTLY TO ASK BECAUSE WE HAD TRIED THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR OF
00:29:28THE WHITE HOUSE AND THAT WAS NOT GETTING US ANYWHERE FAR.
00:29:32THIS IS A BOOK WHERE HE IS THE SUBJECT. WE WANTED TO GIVE HIM THE
00:29:36OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS. WE ALSO DID NOT WANT TO HAVE IT
00:29:40JUST BE OPEN MIC NIGHT, HAVE HIM SIT DOWN, HOW WAS THE NEWS OF
00:29:43THE DAY, SIR.
00:29:45CLEARLY, NEWS HAS COME FROM PEOPLE CALLING HIM IN THE LAST
00:29:49HOWEVER MANY MONTHS IT HAS BEEN.
00:29:51NEVER BEEN VERY REVEALING
00:29:55COMMENTS HE MADE, THE ONE ABOUT
00:29:56HOW HE TALKED AT THE ATLANTIC
00:30:00ABOUT HOW AMERICA FIRST MEANS WHATEVER I SAY IT MEANS.
00:30:03LAST YEAR WHEN HE WAS FIRST
00:30:06INVOLVED IN AN INCURSION INTO IRAN, THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER
00:30:10PIECES OF NEWS THAT EMERGED BUT
00:30:10IN GENERAL, THESE CALLS WHEN
00:30:15PEOPLE MAKE THEM, THEY LAST ABOUT TWO AND A HALF MINUTES.
00:30:19HE DICTATES THE TERMS OF THE DISCUSSION, AND IT IS A WAY TO
00:30:23APPEAR A DISPLAY OF
00:30:27TRANSPARENCY.
00:30:33THE MOST TRANSPARENT PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, WHICH IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
00:30:41THIS IS NOT A TRANSPARENT ADMINISTRATION.
00:30:44SO THOSE CALLS ALLOW HIM TO
00:30:45MAINTAIN THAT THE NEAR WHILE --
00:30:49VENEER WHILE REALLY NOT ANSWERING MUCH AT ALL.
00:30:56PETER: WHEN HE HAS AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING, AND SAYS DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, YOU CAN ASK HIM ANYTHING YOU WANTED?
00:30:59JONATHAN: THE WHITE HOUSE DECIDES WHO IS IN THE POOL.
00:31:04SO IF I'M SELECTED IN THE POOL, SURE.
00:31:09BUT THE COMPOSITION OF THE POOL HAS CHANGED FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE. THERE ARE MORE FRIENDLY
00:31:12REPORTERS THERE.
00:31:14IT IS TRUE, LET ME BE CLEAR.
00:31:18HE ANSWERS MORE QUESTIONS THAN JOE BIDEN.
00:31:21HE IS MORE AVAILABLE, THERE ARE REPORTERS ASKING HIM QUESTIONS WHEN THEY ARE IN THE POOL.
00:31:26BUT MAGGIE AND I FIND THE TYPE
00:31:29OF REPORTING WE DO IN THIS BOOK, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT TYPES
00:31:32OF REPORTING BUT WHEN WE GOT --
00:31:35WANT TO GET INSIDE A ROOM FOR
00:31:37THE SENSITIVE CONVERSATIONS, THE
00:31:39WAY TO GET THAT IS NOT TO CALL DONALD TRUMP ON HIS CELL PHONE FOR THREE MINUTES.
00:31:43IT'S NOT THAT USEFUL.
00:31:44PETER: JONATHAN AND MAGGIE, IN
00:31:49"REGIME CHANGE," YOU ARE IN THE
00:31:52OVAL OFFICE AND YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON.
00:31:56ARE WE LOOKING AT AUDIO TAPES OR TRANSCRIPTS?
00:31:59IS A LEGAL FOR YOU TO HAVE
00:32:03POTENTIALLY NATIONAL SECURITY TRANSCRIPTS IN YOUR POSITION? MAGGIE: WE ARE NOT GOING TO
00:32:06DISCUSS SOURCING.
00:32:07WE HAVE AN EXTENSIVE BIT ABOUT
00:32:12SOURCING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK AND WE DESCRIBE HOW WE CONDUCTED OVER 1000 INTERVIEWS
00:32:16AND MADE DECISIONS ABOUT USING DIRECT QUOTES, HOW WE DECIDED TO
00:32:20USE THINGS THAT, AS BACKGROUND
00:32:22DISCUSSIONS, AND WE DESCRIBE THE
00:32:25PROCESS BY WHICH WE DID
00:32:27INTERVIEWS WHICH IS ON THE JOURNALISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF
00:32:30DEEP BACKGROUND. PETER: THE PRESIDENT HAD A REACTION TO YOUR BOOK AS I'M
00:32:34SURE YOU HAVE SEEN BUT WE WANT TO SHOW OUR AUDIENCE.
00:32:38BASED ON A VERY QUICK AND BORING BRIEFING CONCERNING THE "MAGOT"
00:32:41HAGERMAN BOOK ABOUT ME, IT IS
00:32:46MOSTLY MADE UP, FAKE NEWS, LARGELY FICTION, AS HAVE BEEN
00:32:50MOST OF THE THINGS SHE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT ME FOR SO MANY YEARS.
00:32:53SHE IS A THIRD RATE WRITER AND INTELLECT TO HAS MADE A FIRST
00:32:56RATE INCOME BECAUSE OF YOUR
00:32:59FAVORITE PRESIDENT, ME.
00:33:01THEY DON'T HAVE THE AUDIOTAPES THEY IMPLY THEY HAVE.
00:33:06IRAN WILL NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON. PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP.
00:33:10DO YOU THINK HE TYPED THIS OUT HIMSELF ON HIS PHONE?
00:33:13MAGGIE: THE MARGOT IT IS A
00:33:19CONFUSING ADD BUT THAT WAS
00:33:21EITHER HIM, OR THERE IS A SMALL
00:33:24GROUP OF AIDES WHO IT COULD HAVE BEEN.
00:33:28NATALIE HARP WOULD BE ONE OF
00:33:32THEM. SHE SENSITIVE MATERIAL AND POSTINGS ON HIS BEHALF ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING.
00:33:36SOMETIMES WITHOUT OTHER AIDES KNOWING IT SO I DON'T KNOW.
00:33:39PETER: OUR SUSIE WILES, STEPHEN
00:33:44MILLER, AVAILABLE TO YOU ON A REGULAR BASIS IS NEW YORK TIMES REPORTERS?
00:33:46MAGGIE: WE AREN'T GOING TO DISCUSS SOURCING.
00:33:49PETER: WHAT MOTIVATES STEPHEN
00:33:53MILLER ON THE ISSUES HE CARES ABOUT, PARTICULARLY IMMIGRATION?
00:33:55JONATHAN: IT RUNS PRETTY DEEPLY
00:33:58FOR STEPHEN MILLER, MORE DEEPLY THAN IT DOES FOR THE PRESIDENT.
00:34:02WHAT WE TRY TO DO IN THE BOOK FOR ALL THE MAIN PLAYERS IN THE
00:34:05ADMINISTRATION IS GIVE READERS A
00:34:08DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF THEM AND THEIR CHARACTER AND HOW THEY GREW UP.
00:34:13STEPHEN MILLER WAS AN INTERESTING EXAMPLE. HE GREW UP IN CALIFORNIA. PETER: SANTA MONICA.
00:34:17JONATHAN: VERY LIBERAL ENVIRONMENT.
00:34:20IN HIS VIEW OPPRESSIVELY SO.
00:34:23AND FROM A VERY EARLY AGE, HE
00:34:26WAS HIGHLY IDEOLOGICAL.
00:34:28HE WAS OBSESSED WITH THE RIGHT
00:34:31WING RADIO HOST RUSH LIMBAUGH. HE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM ALL THE TIME.
00:34:37HE WOULD CALL INTO ANOTHER
00:34:39RIGHT-WING RADIO HOST, LARRY ELDER, HE WOULD CALL INTO HIS
00:34:42RADIO SHOW WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.
00:34:45HE WAS A SORT OF PROVOCATEUR AT HIS HIGH SCHOOL.
00:34:50THERE'S A CLIP ONLINE YOU WILL SEE IF YOU LOOK IT UP WHERE HE IS GIVING A SPEECH ABOUT WHY
00:34:55CAN'T THE JANITORS CLEAN UP OUR TRASH, YOU GET THE IDEA.
00:35:01HE CAME TO HIS ANTI-IMMIGRATION VIEWS AT A TIME IN CALIFORNIA
00:35:05WHERE EVEN THOUGH CALIFORNIA WAS
00:35:09OVERWHELMINGLY LIBERAL, THE POLITICS OF IMMIGRATION DURING
00:35:11HIS HIGH SCHOOL YEARS WERE VERY
00:35:14EXPLOSIVE IN CALIFORNIA.
00:35:18SO HE KIND OF GREW UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.
00:35:21AND STIRRING UNIVERSITY, HE GOT
00:35:24HIS FIRST TASTE OF REAL NATIONAL
00:35:28CELEBRITY, CELEBRITY IN THAT SMALL WORLD. HE WAS AT DUKE UNIVERSITY.
00:35:33AND YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER, THERE WERE LACROSSE PLAYERS ACCUSED OF
00:35:37RAPE.
00:35:39YOU KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, STEPHEN MILLER BECAME ONE OF
00:35:42THEIR MOST VOCAL ADVOCATES AND DEFENDERS. TURNS OUT STEPHEN MILLER WAS RIGHT.
00:35:47THEY WERE FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE AND VINDICATED LATER.
00:35:53BUT THAT GOT STEPHEN MILLER ON FOX AND HE BECAME THIS
00:35:58AGGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
00:36:00IDEOLOGUE ON FOX AND THAT SENT
00:36:03HIM TO CAPITOL HILL WHERE HE WAS
00:36:04THIS SORT OF FRINGE, AT THE
00:36:09TIME, ALMOST A GADFLY TYPE FIGURE. HE WOULD CALL REPORTERS LATE AT
00:36:13NIGHT, VERY FOCUSED ON HIS
00:36:16FASHION, HE USED TO WEAR A SILVER PINKY RING WITH BLACK DIAMONDS.
00:36:22VERY FOCUSED ON HIS TIES AND THE
00:36:26FABRICS OF HIS SUITS AND ALL OF THIS STUFF.
00:36:29BUT WHEN TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2015, STEPHEN MILLER
00:36:33DESCRIBED TO OTHERS BEING ELECTRIFIED BY THAT FIRST SPEECH
00:36:37TRUMP GAVE WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT
00:36:39MEXICANS BEING RAPISTS AND THE HORDES COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.
00:36:45BASED ON OUR REPORTING, IT SEEMS LIKE STEPHEN MILLER IN THAT
00:36:49MOMENT, HE HAD BEEN LOOKING FOR
00:36:51A VESSEL FOR HIS IDEOLOGY.
00:36:55AND HE SAW I THINK IN DONALD TRUMP, SOMEBODY THAT HAD THE
00:36:59CHARISMA AND THE STAR POWER TO
00:37:02TAKE STEPHEN MILLER'S IDEAS AND REALLY ELEVATE THEM.
00:37:07AND FRANKLY, TO CRUSH THE OLD
00:37:10REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH STEPHEN MILLER HAS CONTEMPT FOR.
00:37:17THE GEORGE W. BUSH COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE, WELCOMING IMMIGRANTS.
00:37:20HE HAS A CONTEMPT FOR THAT PARTY AND WANTS IT TO BE GONE.
00:37:23HE SOUGHT TRUMP AS A VEHICLE AND BECAME ONE OF HIS MOST VALUED AIDS.
00:37:30VERY SMART GUY, RELENTLESS.
00:37:32HAS A VISION AND STICKS TO IT.
00:37:38WAS AS WELL-PREPARED AS ANYONE FOR THE SECOND TERM.
00:37:39PETER: WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE ON
00:37:43THE RECEIVING END OF A TRUTH SOCIAL POST LIKE THIS OR A
00:37:47CALLOUT IN THE OVAL OFFICE TELLING YOU YOU ARE TERRIBLE AND AWFUL?
00:37:52MAGGIE: I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD LIKE IT.
00:37:58BUT SECONDLY, THIS IS NOT THE
00:37:59FIRST TIME, THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH
00:38:03TIME HE HAS ATTACKED ME.
00:38:05JONATHAN HAS ALSO BEEN ATTACKED. BY HIM IT DOESN'T IMPACT HOW WE
00:38:09DO OUR JOB.
00:38:09THE ATTACKS COME FAR MORE
00:38:13FREQUENTLY AND SIMILARLY TO MOST OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AT THIS
00:38:17POINT. AND NOT MAINSTREAM MEDIA. IT'S JUST WHAT HE DOES.
00:38:22THAT HE ONCE. HE IS PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO.
00:38:26PETER: FROM YOUR BOOK, POLICY IS
00:38:30WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT SAID LAST. MAGGIE: ACCURATE.
00:38:33IN FACT, YOU ARE SEEING IT MUST
00:38:36VISIBLY RECENTLY, ON THIS BIPARTISAN HOUSING BILL WHERE
00:38:40THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I
00:38:42THINK -- WE HAVE BEEN STRUCK AND
00:38:46WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT OVER
00:38:49THE PAST HOUR, OR HOWEVER LONG WE HAVE BEEN HERE, PART OF THE
00:38:53IMPETUS IN WRITING THE BOOK IS
00:38:56HOW DIFFERENT THIS TERM, UNRECOGNIZABLE THIS TERM IS FROM THE FIRST TERM.
00:39:00THERE WAS A MOMENT OF
00:39:03FAMILIARITY IN RECENT DAYS WHEN YOU HAD TOP ADVISERS TO THE
00:39:06PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT, THEY HAVE
00:39:09BEEN TRYING TO GET HIM TO FOCUS ON AFFORDABILITY AND COST OF
00:39:14LIVING FOR AVERAGE VOTERS FOR SOME TIME. ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT WE GOT
00:39:18OUR HANDS ON IN THE REPORTING OF
00:39:20THE BOOK WAS PRIVATE POLLING
00:39:23INSIDE TRUMP'S WORLD WHERE --
00:39:25PETER: TONY FABRIZIO.
00:39:27MAGGIE: WHO HAS PULLED FOR TRUMP
00:39:32SINCE THE 1990'S, WHICH IS A
00:39:33SIDE STORY BUT TRUMP'S TEAM
00:39:36REALLY BELIEVES IN THOSE NUMBERS WITH REASON.
00:39:40HE ACCURATELY CALLED TO THE
00:39:43MARGIN OF ERROR OF THE SWING STATES IN TERMS OF TRUMP'S VICTORY MARGIN.
00:39:49THAT WAS PRETTY REMARKABLE.
00:39:51WHEN I SAY ON-AIR THAT RUMP WON
00:39:55OVERWHELMINGLY, HE DIDN'T WIN THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE.
00:40:00HE IS THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO WIN THE POPULAR VOTE IN 20 YEARS.
00:40:05AS WELL AS A SIZABLE ELECTORAL
00:40:08COLLEGE VICTORY. SO IT WAS A DEFINITIVE WIN THAT
00:40:12HE DIDN'T HAVE AN 2016.
00:40:13FABRIZIO HAS A MEMO THAT HE
00:40:19CIRCULATES, AND HE CIRCULATES POLLING TO A SMALL GROUP OF
00:40:23PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS.
00:40:25THIS ONE WE GOT WAS IN DECEMBER
00:40:28OF 2025, AFTER TRUMP HAD DONE A SPEECH THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
00:40:32ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.
00:40:33AND INSTEAD TRUMP REFERRED TO
00:40:38AFFORDABILITY AS I THINK A CON JOB IN THAT SPEECH.
00:40:42IF I'M DESCRIBING WORDS HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY AT THAT EVENT.
00:40:45FABRIZIO'S POLLING MEMO SAYS
00:40:49UNLESS THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE
00:40:51GOP ARE HONEST, HONEST IN ALL
00:40:53CAPS, WITH VOTERS, THEY WILL
00:40:57HAVE REAL PROBLEMS WITH THE MIDTERMS. SO YOU HAVE SEEN AN EFFORT BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO TRY TO GET
00:41:02TRUMP TO FOCUS ON THIS AS OPPOSED TO HIS REDECORATING
00:41:06PROJECTS, AS OPPOSED TO
00:41:07MONUMENTS TO HIMSELF, OR
00:41:12BEAUTIFICATION PROJECTS AROUND D.C. OR REVAMPING A GOLF COURSE
00:41:15THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY BELONG TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL.
00:41:19BUT HE -- THERE WAS A BIPARTISAN
00:41:24HOUSING BILL THAT WAS WIDELY
00:41:27SEEN AS SOMETHING THAT WOULD
00:41:30ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW IN THEIR FINANCIAL CRISES.
00:41:35AND TRUMP AFTER HIS OWN AIDES
00:41:39TOUTED IT AS PROMISES MADE,
00:41:41PROMISES KEPT, TORPEDOED SIGNING IT BECAUSE HE WANTS INSTEAD THE
00:41:44SENATE TO PASS A BILL THAT THE
00:41:49REPUBLICAN SENATORS MADE CLEAR THERE IS NO MAJORITY TO PASS,
00:41:52WHICH IS A VOTING BILL CALLED,
00:41:55HE CALLS IT THE SAVE AMERICA
00:41:57ACT, THAT WOULD PUT MASSIVE RESTRICTIONS ON WHO CAN VOTE AND
00:42:01HOW.
00:42:01THERE ARE ALREADY LAWS ABOUT
00:42:05ONLY AMERICANS CAN VOTE IN ELECTIONS. THAT FELT LIKE TERM ONE, WHERE
00:42:08THE AIDES WOULD SAY SOMETHING
00:42:10AND HE WOULD PULL IT BACK BUT
00:42:13YOU HAVE SEEN A LOT LESS OF THAT THIS TIME IN PART BECAUSE HIS
00:42:17AIDES ARE RELUCTANT TO GET AHEAD OF HIM.
00:42:21IT'S A IS WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT
00:42:22SAYS IT IS -- SO POLICY IS WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT SAYS IT
00:42:26IS. PETER: IS JD VANCE USUALLY IN THE ROOM FOR DECISIONS?
00:42:30MAGGIE: YES. PETER: HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE RELATIONSHIP?
00:42:33JONATHAN: SO TRUMP LOVES A
00:42:38CONVERT. AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF THEM AROUND HIM.
00:42:42IT'S FUNNY.
00:42:43THE PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP, A
00:42:47COUPLE OF THEM IN SENIOR ROLES, ALMOST NO ONE HAS SAID WORSE THINGS.
00:42:51RUBIO CALLED HIM A CON ARTIST.
00:42:54VANCE PRIVATELY COMPARED HIM TO HITLER.
00:42:58LOVES A CONVERT SO THAT IS NUMBER ONE.
00:43:01NUMBER TWO, HE CAME INTO TRUMP'S
00:43:03ORBIT LARGELY THROUGH THE DONALD
00:43:06TRUMP, JR. TUCKER CARLSON
00:43:09FRAMEWORK AS AN ANTIWAR,
00:43:13POPULIST, MAGA TO THE NTH
00:43:18DEGREE, MORE MAGA THAN TRUMP IN
00:43:22TERMS OF BELIEVING AND
00:43:26ANTI-INTERVENTIONISM, MORE HARD-CORE ON IMMIGRATION.
00:43:30HE GOT TRUMP'S BLESSING FOR THE
00:43:30SENATE RACE AND THEN RAN A
00:43:35PRETTY AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN WITH HIS ALLIES TO BECOME THE VICE PRESIDENT. PETER: INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP, JR.
00:43:39JONATHAN: HE WAS HUGE.
00:43:41AND ELON MUSK AND CHARLIE KIRK
00:43:43AND TUCKER CARLSON. . TRUMP THOUGHT HE WAS BRILLIANT
00:43:47ON TELEVISION. HE WOULD SEE HIM IN THE DEBATES,
00:43:50HE WOULD SEE HIM GO TO COMBATIVE
00:43:54ENVIRONMENTS LIKE WHEN HE GOES ON CNN.
00:43:57TRUMP WOULD COMMENT HOW HANDSOME
00:44:00, GOOD-LOOKING GUY AS HE OFTEN DOES.
00:44:03AND TRUMP WAS IMPRESSED HE GOT
00:44:08INTO YALE WITHOUT HAVING A RICH DADDY. THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE
00:44:11PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO HAVE OBSERVED THAT TRUMP HAS A
00:44:14WARMER PERSONAL CHEMISTRY WITH
00:44:16MARCO RUBIO AND TRUMP AS WE DOCUMENT IN THE BOOK, REALLY
00:44:20LIKES TO MESS WITH VANCE.
00:44:23AND BRING RUBIO IN.
00:44:28WHEN HE SELECTS THIS YOUNG GUY AS HIS VICE PRESIDENT, COURSE
00:44:32THE NATURAL OBSERVATION IS,
00:44:35WELL, HE HAS ANOINTED HIS HEIR, THE 2028 CANDIDATE.
00:44:40BUT TRUMP HAS GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO MAKE CLEAR THAT HE
00:44:43DOESN'T NECESSARILY VIEW IT THAT WAY.
00:44:46HE IS OFTEN PITTING THEM AGAINST EACH OTHER, ASKING PEOPLE WHO THEY PREFER.
00:44:51HAVE A WILD SCENE IN THE BOOK
00:44:53WHERE RUPERT MURDOCH COMES TO
00:44:57THE WHITE HOUSE FOR DINNER. THAT WAS LAST YEAR.
00:45:00THEY ARE IN THE BLUE, WHICH IS
00:45:02THIS VERY ORNATE, OPULENT ROOM
00:45:06IN THE WHITE HOUSE. THEY ARE SITTING AROUND THE TABLE.
00:45:10AND IT IS RUPERT MURDOCH, TRUMP,
00:45:12A FEW AIDES, VANCE AND RUBIO AT THE TABLE.
00:45:17TRUMP SAYS, RUPERT, I LIKE BOTH OF THEM. THEY ARE BOTH GREAT.
00:45:22WHAT DO YOU THINK OF JD?
00:45:24AND MURDOCH, MURDOCH -- WHO HAD
00:45:29GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO TRY TO PREVENT VANCE FROM BEING THE
00:45:33VICE PRESIDENT, HE SAYS YOU KNOW , JD HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE GREAT.
00:45:39AND VANCE IS THANKS, RUPERT. SORT OF THIS FUNNY MOMENT.
00:45:44VERY LOADED, AWKWARD MOMENT. TRUMP SAYS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT MARCO?
00:45:47AND MURDOCH STONE COLD, DOESN'T
00:45:50MISS A BEAT. HE SAYS MARCO IS BRILLIANT.
00:45:55SO THAT WAS A MOMENT WHERE TRUMP
00:45:58LITERALLY IN FRONT OF THEM WHILE THEY WERE SITTING THERE WITH THE
00:46:00MOST POWERFUL PROPRIETOR OF
00:46:04CONSERVATIVE MEDIA AND AMERICAN HISTORY, GETS HIM TO ESSENTIALLY
00:46:07DO A BEAUTY PAGEANT OF HIS SUCCESSOR. THAT IS THE DYNAMIC.
00:46:11LET'S SAY IT'S COMPLICATED. PETER: YOU REPORT ALSO THAT
00:46:15MARCO RUBIO HAS BASICALLY MOVED INTO THE WHITE HOUSE SO HE CAN
00:46:19BE THE LAST ONE IN THE ROOM IN A SENSE.
00:46:20MAGGIE: MARCO RUBIO PRIMARILY
00:46:24WORKS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE IN OUR EXPERIENCE. I THINK THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM
00:46:27MIGHT CONTEST THE EXACT NUMBER OF HOURS HE SPENDS THERE VERSUS
00:46:31THE STATE DEPARTMENT. HE HAS TOLD SOME ADVISORS, HE
00:46:36TRIES TO START HIS DAYS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT BUT I CAN TELL
00:46:39YOU BASED ON EXPERIENCE, JONATHAN HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE
00:46:41AS WE COVERED THIS WHITE HOUSE, BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU COULD
00:46:45WALK UP TO UPPER PRESS, WHERE
00:46:48THE PRESS SECRETARY'S OFFICE IS, IT IS NO LIMITED BUT -- UNLESS YOU HAVE AN APPOINTMENT.
00:46:54RUBIO WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND FROM ONE OFFICE TO THE NEXT.
00:46:57WHAT WAS STRIKING WAS HE CLEARLY
00:47:01SEEMED TO BE ENJOYING HIS ROLE,
00:47:04ENJOYING THE AND THIS PARTICULAR ONE MILLION.
00:47:11--MILIEU. WHAT RUBIO WANTS LONG-TERM WE
00:47:15CAN'T SAY. HE ISN'T DOING ANY OF THE THINGS
00:47:19ONE WOULD DO IF ONE WERE RUNNING
00:47:20FOR PRESIDENT.
00:47:24WE WRITE ABOUT HOW SUPPORTIVE HE WAS OF VANCE IN 2024 WHEN VANCE HAD THAT, WHAT HE DESCRIBES AS
00:47:28AN ILL ADVISED SINGLE CAP LADIES
00:47:32COMMENT OR WHATEVER IT WAS HE SAID.
00:47:33CHILDLESS CAT LADIES.
00:47:37RUBIO WAS SUPPORTIVE AND THEY DO HAVE AN ACTUAL FRIENDSHIP.
00:47:41DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IN POLITICS BUT RUBIO IS AROUND TRUMP A LOT.
00:47:47TRUMP LIKES TALKING TO RUBIO. IT IS NOT JUST THE PERSONAL
00:47:51CHEMISTRY, IT IS THE WAY HE PRESENTS INFORMATION TO HIM. JONATHAN: THAT'S ANOTHER THING.
00:47:57HE'S THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO BARELY TRAVELS, WHICH IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL.
00:48:01BUT IT IS ALSO SMART BECAUSE HE
00:48:03UNDERSTANDS, RUBIO UNDERSTANDS THAT IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE ROOM
00:48:07WITH TRUMP, IF YOU AREN'T LITERALLY THERE, YOU ARE OUT OF
00:48:10THE LOOP. THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS IN THAT LITTLE OVAL OFFICE.
00:48:16TRUMP MAKES THE DECISIONS.
00:48:19I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO SWEEPING, BUT THERE IS NOT MUCH OF AN INTERAGENCY PROCESS.
00:48:24THERE IS NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF COORDINATION ACROSS AGENCIES. IT'S A VERY SMALL GROUP.
00:48:28IF YOU AREN'T IN THE ROOM, NOT
00:48:31ONLY DO YOU NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN ON THE
00:48:35ISSUE, YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW ABOUT A DECISION THAT IS MADE.
00:48:39HE MAKES DECISIONS VERY QUICKLY, IN MANY CASES IMPULSIVELY ON THE
00:48:43SPOT. IF YOU ARE THERE, YOU AREN'T THERE.
00:48:46PETER: THE TARIFF ISSUE SEEMED TO BE AD HOC IN A SENSE.
00:48:49MAGGIE: NOT ALMOST.
00:48:52A COLLEAGUE OF OURS TEXTED ME, I
00:48:57WAS READING THE BOOK, TEXTED ME LAST NIGHT AND SAID I WAS GOING
00:49:01TO WAIT UNTIL THEY FINISHED THE BOOK TO TELL YOU WHAT I THOUGHT BUT I JUST FINISHED THE TARIFF
00:49:05SEEN AND I CAN'T GET OVER THIS. MY JAW IS ON THE FLOOR ABOUT HOW REVEALING THIS WAS.
00:49:12AND WE HAVE THIS VERY DETAILED INSIDE THE ROOM REPORTING ABOUT
00:49:17HOW THIS FORMULA FOR THE GLOBAL
00:49:18TRADE WAR THAT TRUMP WAS ABOUT
00:49:21TO BRING HIM TO THE WORLD, AND TRUMP -- HIS ADVISORS WILL SAY
00:49:25AND THEY ARE RIGHT, HE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS FOR
00:49:29DECADES. BUT LITERALLY THE WORD TARIFF. IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF OTHER
00:49:32COUNTRIES RIPPING US OFF. IT'S NOT A LONG-HELD ECONOMIC
00:49:35THEORY AND HOW IT MIGHT WORK.
00:49:39IT SOMETHING HE WANTED TO DO IN HIS FIRST TERM AND HE DIDN'T FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, BUT ONE OF
00:49:43THEM WAS HE HAD AIDES LIKE GARY
00:49:45COHEN WHOSE ECONOMIC
00:49:50CREDENTIALS, HIS ECONOMIC ADVISOR WHOSE CREDENTIALS TRUMP
00:49:53RESPECTED OR AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGED WERE SUBSTANTIAL.
00:49:57GARY COHEN WAS WILLING TO GET IN
00:50:01TRUMP'S FACE AND SAY DON'T DO THIS. AS WE HAVE SAID, THERE IS LESS
00:50:04OF THAT THIS TIME. THIS IS SOMETHING TRUMP WANTED
00:50:08TO TRY FOR A LONG TIME. THIS FORMULA FOR TARIFFS WAS
00:50:11ESSENTIALLY DONE THE NIGHT BEFORE.
00:50:15IT WAS LARGELY, NOT ENTIRELY BUT
00:50:18LARGELY TRUMP'S PROTECTIONIST
00:50:20ADVISOR, WHO TRUMP LIKES A LOT FOR A LOT OF REASONS.
00:50:25THE FORMULA BECAME UNEXPLAINABLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
00:50:28WE DESCRIBE HOW TWO THINGS WENT.
00:50:33TRUMP WAS IN MANY CASES JUST COMING UP WITH AN INCREASED
00:50:36TARIFF RATE OFF THE TOP OF HIS HEAD. PUT THEM IN FOR 10 IN MANY
00:50:40CASES, AS IF THIS WAS A LEDGER AS OPPOSED TO A TRADE FORMULA.
00:50:44THE OTHER IS, IT WAS STUNNING TO
00:50:48US AS WE WERE REPORTING AND WE REPORTING IT IN PREPARATION FOR
00:50:51THE BOOK, TO STRESS TEST
00:50:56INFORMATION, THE PEOPLE AROUND
00:50:56TRUMP WERE SO ALARMED AT HOW
00:51:01THIS WAS GOING, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MANY OF THEM, EITHER THEY
00:51:04DIDN'T THINK HE WAS GOING TO REALLY GO THROUGH WITH THE
00:51:07TARIFF REGIME, OR THEY THOUGHT HE WOULD ALLOW MORE CARVEOUTS.
00:51:11THEY STARTED TO GET ANGRY. BUT HE REALLY TOOK THE GLOBAL ECONOMY TO THE BRINK.
00:51:16AND IT WAS REALLY ONLY WHEN THE BOND MARKETS WERE AT THE POINT
00:51:18OF MELTDOWN THAT HE PULLED BACK.
00:51:23SO LIBERATION DAY, THE TARIFF WAR DAY BEGINS APRIL 2.
00:51:27A FEW DAYS LATER, APRIL 6 I
00:51:32THINK, THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND COMMERCE SECRETARY IN THE
00:51:36CABIN OF AIR FORCE ONE ON THE FLIGHT FROM FLORIDA SAID WE NEED TO PULL BACK. THERE ARE WARNING SIGNS.
00:51:40IT TOOK ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF DAYS.
00:51:43PETER: STEVE WITKOFF SEEMS TO
00:51:47HAVE SEVERAL JOBS IN THE WHITE
00:51:49HOUSE BUT IT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL
00:51:53GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, IS THAT CORRECT? JONATHAN: HE IS. MAGGIE: HE IS AN ENVOY.
00:51:58I DON'T THINK HE IS A SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE. . HE COULDN'T BE IN THIS LONG.
00:52:02PETER: HE IS WORKING ON RUSSIA, THE MIDDLE EAST? MAGGIE: HE IS AN ENVOY FOR
00:52:06EVERYTHING. PETER: A LONGTIME FRIEND OF PRESIDENT TRUMP?
00:52:09MAGGIE: GOING BACK TO THE 1980'S.
00:52:13HIS FORMER LAWYER WHO BECAME A REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER HIMSELF. PETER: THERE IS ANOTHER
00:52:17CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, NATALIE HARP.
00:52:20WHO IS NATALIE HARP AND WHAT IS
00:52:22HER ROLE IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE?
00:52:25JONATHAN: SHE IS A YOUNG WOMAN
00:52:27WHO USED TO BE A TV HOST ON
00:52:32OANN, WHICH IS A FAR RIGHT
00:52:34NETWORK, VERY INVOLVED IN THE
00:52:37POST-2020 CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT THE ELECTION. EXTREMELY DEVOTED TO TRUMP.
00:52:42AND HE HIRED HER WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE.
00:52:45SHE BECAME THIS SORT OF EVER PRESENT AIDE.
00:52:50SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND, THEY CALL HER THE HUMAN PRINTER
00:52:53BECAUSE SHE CARRIES A PORTABLE PRINTER IN HER BACKPACK. SHE IS ALWAYS PRINTING HIM
00:52:57STORIES THAT ARE GOOD NEWS, STORIES TO MAKE HIM FEEL GOOD.
00:53:01THAT WAS DURING HIS LOW AND
00:53:05AFTER LEAVING OFFICE. SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND ON
00:53:09THE GOLF COURSE WITH A PRINTER. MAGGIE: ON FOOT SOMETIMES.
00:53:11JONATHAN: SOMETIMES ON FOOT.
00:53:14WE OBTAINED REPORTING FOR THE
00:53:17BOOK, SOME LETTERS THAT SHE HAD
00:53:20WRITTEN TO THE PRESIDENT DURING THE CAMPAIGN.
00:53:24THEY WERE VERY UNUSUAL LETTERS, VERY PERSONAL.
00:53:28AND THEY WERE LEFT IN SOME OF HIS PRIVATE SPACES.
00:53:33AND THEY WERE INCLUDED, THEY INCLUDED LINES LIKE YOU ARE ALL
00:53:36THAT MATTERS TO ME, WAS ONE OF THE QUOTES.
00:53:41SECRET SERVICE BECAME AWARE OF
00:53:42IT, AND SOME OF THE SECRET
00:53:46SERVICE AGENTS BECAME QUITE ALARMED BY THE BEHAVIOR, BUT TRUMP WASN'T.
00:53:50HE WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE, SHE IS
00:53:52THE ONLY ONE, HE WOULD JOKE BUT
00:53:56IT IS NEVER QUITE A JOKE, SHE IS
00:53:58THE ONLY ONE WHO LOVES ME. SHE WILL BE WITH ME, YOU WILL
00:54:02ALL GO MAKE MONEY BUT SHE WILL BE WITH ME. I THINK HE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE
00:54:05HER DEVOTION AND LOYALTY AND THAT SHE WILL DO THINGS VERY
00:54:09QUICKLY. SHE REPRESENTS SOMETHING LARGER
00:54:12IN HIS WORLD, SOMETHING THAT, HE
00:54:16ALWAYS HAD PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHO ARE DEVOTED, SYCOPHANTS OR WHATEVER.
00:54:20SHE IS OF A DIFFERENT ORDER.
00:54:24AND SHE IS ALSO A CONDUIT.
00:54:26WHEN PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WANT TO GET INFORMATION TO DONALD
00:54:30TRUMP AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO GO THROUGH ANY TYPE OF
00:54:34VETTING FOR THE CHIEF OF STAFF, THEY CAN GO THROUGH NATALIE AND
00:54:38SHE WILL SHOW IT TO HIM. SHE IS A CONDUIT, SHE IS A
00:54:43PROVIDER OF GOOD NEWS, SHE IS
00:54:44SOMEONE WHO IS ALWAYS THERE.
00:54:49SHE SITS IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH HER LAPTOP UP AND BACK AGAINST THE WALL. PETER: IN EVERY MEETING?
00:54:51MAGGIE: ALMOST EVERY MEETING. JONATHAN: JUST ABOUT EVERY MEETING.
00:54:56THAT IS NATALIE HARP. MAGGIE: YOU ASKED ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN.
00:55:01WHEN YOU WERE TALKING, PART OF
00:55:03NATALIE HARP'S REMIT IS
00:55:09ESTABLISHED BY HERSELF IN THE PRESIDENT, IS PROVIDING HIM WITH GOOD NEWS.
00:55:12THE WAY THAT TRUMP DESCRIBES
00:55:17BORIS EPSTEIN IN PRIVATE, NO I
00:55:20CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHICH IS THE
00:55:23ACCURATE PRONUNCIATION, HE WOULD
00:55:24SAY THINGS LIKE, HE IS MY
00:55:28PSYCHIATRIST. HOW MUCH HE LIKES HOW BORIS IS NEUROTIC.
00:55:32HE WILL CLAIM THE BORIS, HE
00:55:33WOULD SAY IN 2023 WHEN TRUMP WAS
00:55:38FACING A DIET HENCE, IF I WAS
00:55:40ABOUT TO GET INDICTED BORIS WOULD SAY IT IS GREAT FOR ME.
00:55:44BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY TRUMP LIKES HAVING BORIS AROUND.
00:55:50SOMETIMES YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD.
00:55:53AND SOMEONE DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
00:55:58AND THOSE TWO PEOPLE, THERE
00:56:00REALLY IS -- THERE ARE FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE ACTUAL
00:56:04GOVERNMENT WHO WILL DO LITERALLY WHATEVER TRUMP WANTS.
00:56:07THERE ARE SOME AND SO FAR I
00:56:10WOULD SAY BASED ON A REPORTING,
00:56:11BILL POSEY -- BILL PULTE, ACTING
00:56:16DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, IS
00:56:21POSITIONING HIMSELF THAT WAY. HARP IS IN THE GOVERNMENT BUT
00:56:24SHE IS IN A DIFFERENT CATEGORY. PETER: THE BOOK HAS BEEN THE
00:56:28HARDEST THING EITHER OF US HAS EVER DONE PROFESSIONALLY. WHY YOU SAY THAT?
00:56:31MAGGIE: ACCURATE.
00:56:33JONATHAN: GET A BETTER ANSWER IF YOU SAT DOWN WITH MY WIFE.
00:56:37MAGGIE: OR MY HUSBAND.
00:56:38JONATHAN: SHE PROHIBITED ME FROM
00:56:42EVER WRITING OF THE BOOK. WE HAVE FOLLOWED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME.
00:56:47WE ARE BOTH UNBALANCED IN OUR APPROACH TO WORK I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY. PETER: UNBALANCED?
00:56:50MAGGIE:. A LITTLE OBSESSIVE. JONATHAN: I HAVE WORKED SEVEN
00:56:54DAYS A WEEK, 12 HOUR DAYS FOR A
00:56:58VERY LONG TIME IN MY CAREER. BUT THIS BOOK I THINK TOOK IT TO A DIFFERENT LEVEL.
00:57:04BY THE END OF IT, IT IS HARD TO
00:57:09EXPLAIN TO A READER HOW HARD IT IS TO GET INSIDE THESE ROOMS AND
00:57:12TO ACTUALLY GET VERIFIED INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE CONFIDENT ABOUT INSIDE THESE
00:57:16ROOMS. TO DO THAT PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER
00:57:19PAGE IS JUST AN IMMENSE EFFORT
00:57:22OF REPORTING THAT BASICALLY KILLED BOTH OF US.
00:57:25MAGGIE: I HAVE CHILDREN WHO ARE
00:57:28OLDER THAN JONATHAN'S CHILDREN
00:57:30BUT THEIR WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN A VERSION OF THIS.
00:57:35THIS WAS NOT A PERIOD WHERE IT LET UP.
00:57:38PETER: THE COLOR OF GOLD FOR THE COVER ON PURPOSE?
00:57:41MAGGIE: IT WASN'T OUR CALL. IT WAS THE DESIGN TEAM AT SIMON
00:57:45& SCHUSTER. GOD LOVE THEM BECAUSE IT IS BRILLIANT. JONATHAN: IT IS GENIUS.
00:57:49PETER: IF YOU COULD SIT DOWN
00:57:52WITH ONE MEMBER OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FOR ONE HOUR UNFETTERED, WHO WOULD IT BE?
00:57:55JONATHAN: WE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T ANSWER THAT.
00:57:59I DON'T WANT TO NARROW IT DOWN.
00:58:03PETER: MAGGIE HABERMAN, JONATHAN
00:58:07SWANN, NEW YORK TIMES WHITE HOUSE REPORTERS, THE AUTHOR OF
00:58:11"REGIME CHANGE: INSIDE THE
00:58:15IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY OF DONALD
00:58:17TRUMP." THANKS FOR SPENDING AN HOUR WITH US ON C-SPAN.
00:58:20JONATHAN: THANK YOU. MAGGIE: WE ENJOYED IT.
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