Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:01TO YOURSELF, UH, YOU EVER DAYDREAM, YOU EVER LOSE YOUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT? YOU'RE, YOU'RE
00:00:04THINKING ABOUT IT, OR YOU JUST TUNNEL VISIONED ON WHAT YOU'RE WRITING?
00:00:09>> I DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. I TUNNEL VISION, I LET MY IMAGINATION RUN, YOU KNOW,
00:00:13BECAUSE I FOUND THAT WHEN I TRIED TO KEEP MY IMAGINATION IN
00:00:14CHECK, I MISS OPPORTUNITIES. AND I DON'T WANT TO MISS
00:00:18OPPORTUNITIES. PEOPLE ASK, WHERE
00:00:22DO I GET MY IDEAS FROM? I GET UP
00:00:26EVERY DAY AND I WALK OUT THE DOOR AND I SEE WHAT'S IN FRONT
00:00:29OF ME. I'M NOT ON MY IPHONE.
00:00:32LOOKING AT MY IPHONE. I'M
00:00:34LOOKING AT PEOPLE, AND I'VE
00:00:43GOTTEN IDEAS FOR PLOT POINTS JUST BY WALKING DOWN THE STREET AND SEEING TWO PEOPLE TALKING.
00:00:45AND I'M WONDERING, WHAT ARE THEY
00:00:47TALKING ABOUT? MAYBE I CAN
00:00:51ANSWER THAT MYSELF. OR I SEE A
00:00:52GUY WITH A BOX GET ON A BUS. I
00:00:59WONDER WHAT'S IN THE BOX AND
00:01:04WHERE IS THE BUS GOING WITH THE GUY? AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I
00:01:06HAVE A STORY IDEA FROM THAT. THE
00:01:10IDEAS ARE ALL AROUND YOU ALL THE TIME. IT'S JUST THAT YOU'RE NOT
00:01:14RECEPTIVE TO SEIZING OPPORTUNITIES. ONCE YOU DO THINK ABOUT SEIZING THOSE
00:01:17OPPORTUNITIES, AND ALL OF A
00:01:18SUDDEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TOO
00:01:21MANY IDEAS, TOO MANY THINGS TO
00:01:23WRITE ABOUT.
00:01:26>> WATCH AMERICA'S BOOK CLUB WITH DAVID BALDACCI SUNDAY AT 6
00:01:29P.M. AND 9 P.M. EASTERN AND
00:01:32PACIFIC. ONLY ON C-SPAN. >> [MUSIC]
00:01:38>> OUR 2026 IN REVIEW. LOOKING
00:01:45BACK AT CURRENT SUPREME COURT
00:01:48JUSTICES PUBLIC REMARKS
00:01:53CONTINUES. KETANJI BROWN JACKSON
00:01:56SAT DOWN AT YALE UNIVERSITY TO
00:02:00DISCUSS THE EMERGENCY DOCKET AND
00:02:05OTHER PRESSING ISSUES AT THE
00:02:07COURT. HERE'S A LOOK.
00:02:17>> THANK
00:02:32YOU SO MUCH, JUSTICE JACKSON, FOR SPENDING THAT TIME WITH US. YOU'VE BEEN SAYING SOME OF
00:02:34THESE THINGS IN YOUR WRITINGS
00:02:40FROM THE BENCH, BUT IT'S AN
00:02:46EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO GET TO HEAR YOU SPELL THEM OUT WITH SUCH RIGOR AND SUCH
00:02:49PASSION ABOUT THE INTEGRITY OF
00:02:51OUR SYSTEM.
00:02:57>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
00:03:00FOR, AGAIN, FOR THIS
00:03:05EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT.
00:03:12>> SO WE WE HAVE ABOUT 20 TO 25
00:03:13MINUTES FOR
00:03:22SOME QUESTIONS. SO I THOUGHT I
00:03:24WOULD ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS
00:03:34THAT FOLLOW THE STRUCTURE OF YOUR SPEECH. AND THEN MAYBE WE
00:03:36CAN VEER BEYOND THAT. IF WE HAVE
00:03:42THE TIME. SO THE YOU START OUT
00:03:46BY DESCRIBING THE STANDARDS
00:04:01THAT APPLY WHEN PARTIES ARE
00:04:02SEEKING AN INJUNCTION OR A STAY.
00:04:10AND THERE ARE TWO THAT THEN
00:04:12BECOME RELEVANT TO YOUR PROPOSAL
00:04:14FOR REFORM. SO I WANT TO
00:04:18UNDERSTAND EACH OF THOSE AND HOW
00:04:23YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THEM A LITTLE BIT BETTER. BUT SO LET'S
00:04:27START WITH THE CONCEPT OF HARM.
00:04:33AND THAT'S WHERE YOU REALLY PLACE THE EMPHASIS AND FIGURING OUT WHAT THE REAL WORLD HARM IS.
00:04:38YES. SO HOW DO YOU EVALUATE REAL
00:04:44WORLD HARM? BECAUSE FOR THOSE OF
00:04:44US WHO ARE READING, UH, EITHER
00:04:50THE GOVERNMENT'S BRIEFS IN A LOT OF THE CASES THAT ARE COMING
00:04:53THROUGH THE EMERGENCY DOCKET OR
00:04:55THE COURT'S OPINIONS, THERE'S A
00:04:58CONCEPT OF HARM THAT THE INABILITY OF THE PRESIDENT TO BE
00:05:01ABLE TO UTILIZE HIS POWER. YES.
00:05:08IS ITSELF A HARM THAT IS A
00:05:13CONSTITUTIONAL HARM FOR A
00:05:17PRESIDENT NOT TO BE ABLE TO
00:05:22EXERCISE HIS RIGHTFUL POWER.
00:05:28WHAT WHAT RELEVANCE DOES THAT
00:05:32HAVE IN THE CALCULUS OF HARM?
00:05:40>> SO IN THE CALCULUS OF HARM,
00:05:45AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AND LET ME
00:05:46START BY SAYING I WAS A DISTRICT
00:06:00COURT JUDGE FOR THE LONGEST
00:06:01PERIOD OF MY TENURE, SEVEN AND A
00:06:06HALF YEARS IN THE DISTRICT OF
00:06:10COLUMBIA. AND SO I HAVE HAD TO
00:06:17RESPOND TO PARTIES WHO RUN INTO
00:06:20COURT. UH, THE DAY BEFORE SOME
00:06:33CATASTROPHIC EVENT AND ASK FOR
00:06:36INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. AND WHAT YOU
00:06:43LEARN VERY QUICKLY WHEN YOU'RE
00:06:46IN THAT POSITION IS THAT HARM
00:06:54HAS TO BE EVALUATED RELATIVE TO
00:06:56WHAT IS HAPPENING IN A CONCRETE
00:07:00WAY WITH RESPECT TO FACTS ON THE
00:07:04GROUND. SOMETHING LIKE
00:07:09CONSTITUTIONAL HARM IS TOO
00:07:14ABSTRACT TO DRIVE THIS KIND OF
00:07:19ANALYSIS. WHY DO I SAY THAT?
00:07:24BECAUSE CONSTITUTIONAL HARM IS
00:07:25ACTUALLY LITTLE MORE THAN, UH,
00:07:34IN A LEGAL CONCEPT. AND WE HAVE
00:07:43AN UNDERLYING LEGAL PROCESS THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT THE PRESIDENT OR
00:07:46WHOMEVER HAS VIOLATED THE LAW.
00:07:56UM, I TRY TO, I'M TRYING TO
00:08:00FIGURE OUT AN EASIER WAY OF
00:08:10SAYING THIS. THE, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, ALTHOUGH
00:08:13HE MAY BE IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL
00:08:19THAT YOU'VE POSED, UM, HARMED
00:08:25IN AN ABSTRACT WAY BY NOT DOING
00:08:32WHAT HE WANTS TO DO, HE
00:08:35CERTAINLY ISN'T HARMED IF WHAT
00:08:37HE WANTS TO DO IS ILLEGAL.
00:08:42RIGHT. HE DOESN'T HAVE THE
00:08:45ABILITY TO DO SOMETHING
00:08:47UNLAWFUL. AND THE POINT OF THE
00:08:52MERITS PROCEEDING IS TO
00:08:56DETERMINE WHETHER THE THING HE
00:08:57WANTS TO DO IS UNLAWFUL. SO THE
00:09:05INTERIM RELIEF PROCEEDING REALLY
00:09:06HAS TO BE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE,
00:09:16AND THE SOMETHING ELSE IS, ARE
00:09:20WE GOING TO ALLOW HIM TO DO THIS
00:09:26THING, THIS THING THAT IS BEING
00:09:30CHALLENGED IN THE INTERIM, WHILE
00:09:36WE ARE EVALUATING WHETHER OR NOT
00:09:40THAT THING IS LAWFUL, AND THE
00:09:42ONLY WAY TO MAKE THAT
00:09:44DETERMINATION WITHOUT HAVING IT
00:09:49JUST COMPLETELY COLLAPSE INTO
00:09:55FORECASTING THE MERITS, IS TO
00:09:58FOCUS ON WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN
00:10:03IF HE DOES THIS THING CONCRETELY
00:10:06IN THE REAL WORLD, VERSUS NOT.
00:10:12AND SO, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE
00:10:16THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES THAT
00:10:24KIND OF ARGUMENT, BUT WHAT I WOULD BE LOOKING FOR AS A
00:10:26DISTRICT COURT JUDGE IS THE
00:10:33GOVERNMENT EXPLAINING TO ME THE
00:10:36NEED FOR THEM TO IMPLEMENT THIS
00:10:39POLICY RIGHT NOW IN CONCRETE
00:10:45WAYS, AND THEREFORE, THE HARMS THAT WOULD BEFALL THE GOVERNMENT
00:10:48OR THE PUBLIC IF THEY DON'T DO
00:10:56IT NOW. THAT'S WHAT THE INTERIM
00:11:00RELIEF DETERMINATION IS REALLY
00:11:05ABOUT.
00:11:12>> SO, IN A SENSE, THEN OUR OUR SYSTEM, THE WAY THAT YOU
00:11:14ENVISION IT, HAS A VERY STRONG
00:11:18STATUS QUO BIAS, OR OUGHT TO
00:11:26HAVE A VERY STRONG STATUS QUO
00:11:29BIAS. AND IT HAS.
00:11:33>> TO, IT HAS TO, BECAUSE THE
00:11:38CHALLENGE IS ABOUT THE
00:11:43LAWFULNESS OF THE CHANGE. SO I
00:11:46DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN
00:11:54DECIDE THAT WITHOUT HAVING A
00:11:58LEGAL PROCEEDING. THAT TELLS US
00:12:02WHAT THE ANSWER IS. I MEAN, ONE
00:12:09OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF
00:12:13THE SPEECH, I THINK, IS WHEN I
00:12:18SAID, THE COURT DOES NOT KNOW,
00:12:25WALKING IN THE DOOR,
00:12:38WHETHER OR NOT THE PERSON WHO IS
00:12:43MAKING THIS CLAIM HAS THE BETTER
00:12:48LEGAL ARGUMENT. THE POINT IS
00:12:53THAT IT TAKES TIME TO FIGURE
00:12:55THAT OUT. WE WANT OUR JUSTICE
00:13:06SYSTEM TO HAVE JUDGES LOOK AT
00:13:11EVIDENCE, RESEARCH THE LAW, YOU
00:13:14KNOW, GO TO THE JURY IF THAT'S
00:13:24NECESSARY. THAT'S PART OF THE
00:13:29LEGAL PROCESS. AND ALL OF THAT
00:13:33TAKES TIME. SO I JUST CAN'T
00:13:46ABIDE A SCENARIO IN
00:14:03WHICH WE ARE SOMEHOW FORECASTING
00:14:04WHO'S GOING TO WIN ON THE
00:14:09MERITS WITHOUT DOING ALL OF
00:14:16THOSE THINGS.
00:14:24>> SO IT'S VERY CLARIFYING WHEN
00:14:29YOU SAY THAT THERE'S NOT AN
00:14:33ENTITLEMENT TO DO SOMETHING
00:14:34ILLEGAL, ESSENTIALLY. AND SO THE
00:14:39HARM CAN ARISE FROM EXERCISING A
00:14:44POWER THAT COULD BE AN ILLEGAL
00:14:49EXERCISE OF POWER.
00:14:55>> HOW COULD YOU BE HARMED FROM
00:15:06BEING STOPPED, FROM DOING
00:15:07SOMETHING YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO
00:15:14DO?
00:15:18>> SO THEN THAT, THAT LEADS TO
00:15:22THE SECOND QUESTION ABOUT WHAT
00:15:30THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS ON THE
00:15:36MERITS ELEMENT OF THE STANDARD
00:15:39REQUIRES. AND YOU'RE SUGGESTING
00:15:48IN YOUR PROPOSAL THAT WE LOOK AT
00:15:49THE HARMS FIRST, IRRESPECTIVE OF
00:15:55THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS ON THE
00:16:02MERITS,
00:16:09AND THEN ENTERTAIN THE
00:16:10POSSIBILITY THAT THE LEGAL
00:16:15CLAIMS MIGHT BE COMPLETELY
00:16:18UNFOUNDED. UM, SO IF I HAVE THAT
00:16:20RIGHT, WHAT, WHAT ALLOWS A COURT
00:16:37IN THIS INTERIM POSITION TO SAY
00:16:41THAT THE CLAIMS ARE COMPLETELY
00:16:49UNFOUNDED, SUCH.
00:16:56>> THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO
00:17:03QUICKLY ASSESS THE PLAUSIBILITY
00:17:04OF THE CLAIM? THERE'S A
00:17:14DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAYING, YOU
00:17:18KNOW, I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW
00:17:23WHO'S GOING TO WIN THIS ISSUE.
00:17:30AND I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW
00:17:35THAT THIS PARTICULAR CLAIM HAS
00:17:40NO CHANCE. I MEAN, THIS IS THE
00:17:48POINT OF BRINGING UP THE CAPITAL
00:17:52CASES, THAT THERE ARE
00:18:00MANY TIMES WHEN PEOPLE MAKE
00:18:02CLAIMS THAT THE THIS, YOU KNOW,
00:18:04THE SUPREME COURT HAS ALREADY
00:18:09FORECLOSED THIS ISSUE. UM,
00:18:13THERE, THERE YOU CAN MORE
00:18:19QUICKLY ELIMINATE, UM, CLAIMS,
00:18:23THEN YOU CAN EVALUATE AND
00:18:37DETERMINE WHO'S GOING TO BE THE
00:18:44WINNER. AND I ACTUALLY THINK
00:18:46THAT IF YOU READ THE WINTER
00:18:50CASE, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE
00:18:53WAY THIS WORKS, THAT THAT'S
00:19:06REALLY WHAT THEY MEANT WHEN THEY
00:19:14SAID THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS
00:19:15ON THE MERITS, THAT IT WAS
00:19:24REALLY ABOUT, IS THIS A
00:19:29POSSIBILITY? NOT WHO IS ACTUALLY
00:19:32GOING TO WIN? BECAUSE IT CAN'T
00:19:38WORK THAT WAY. IF YOU HAVE AN
00:19:44UNDERLYING MERITS PROCEEDING
00:19:44THAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE
00:19:49FIGURING THAT OUT.
00:20:03>> SO THEN, UM, THE SECOND PART
00:20:10OF YOUR SPEECH, YOU, YOU TALK
00:20:22ABOUT THE WAY THE SUPREME COURT
00:20:23HAS BEEN HANDLING THESE,
00:20:34THESE PETITIONS AND CONTRAST THE
00:20:43CURRENT PRACTICE WITH WHAT YOU
00:20:45SAW AS A CLERK 27 YEARS AGO. AND
00:20:55THE WAY UP UNTIL VERY RECENTLY.
00:20:59YES. WE THOUGHT ABOUT THE
00:21:04EMERGENCY DOCKET AND YOUR, UM,
00:21:15FORMULATION OF IT WAS EVOCATIVE.
00:21:19YOU TALKED ABOUT THE COURT
00:21:26HISTORICALLY WANTING TO STEER
00:21:27AWAY FROM POLITICALLY
00:21:34CONTROVERSIAL DECISIONS. BUT I
00:21:38WOULD NOT DESCRIBE WHAT IT'S
00:21:43BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST YEAR AS
00:22:06STEERING AWAY FROM POLITICALLY CONTROVERSIAL
00:22:08DECISIONS. AND SO WHAT DO YOU
00:22:12THINK ACCOUNTS FOR THE COURT'S
00:22:18WILLINGNESS TO JUMP INTO THESE
00:22:24CASES? IS IT SOMETHING
00:22:27PARTICULAR ABOUT OUR MOMENT,
00:22:33ABOUT THE THE RISE OF
00:22:42PRESIDENTIAL ACTION OVER THE
00:22:43LAST 2 TO 3 ADMINISTRATIONS? IS
00:22:49IT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS
00:22:57PARTICULAR COURT AND ITS
00:22:58UNDERSTANDING OF EXECUTIVE
00:23:03POWER, OR IS IT SOMETHING ABOUT
00:23:10OUR POLITICS MORE GENERALLY?
00:23:15THAT IS.
00:23:18>> THE COURT? I DON'T KNOW THE
00:23:24ANSWER TO THE WHY. I REALLY
00:23:27DON'T. I MEAN, ALL I CAN SAY
00:23:30IS, I KNOW IT'S DIFFERENT
00:23:34BECAUSE I HAD THE GREAT GOOD
00:23:40FORTUNE OF CLERKING. UM, AND I
00:23:42KNOW YOU CLERKED AT, UM, A FEW
00:23:44YEARS AFTER ME AND, AND MY
00:23:55OBSERVATION WAS, AND I THINK THE
00:24:00STATISTICS BEAR THIS OUT THAT WE
00:24:05HAVE, YOU KNOW, SCHOLARS WHO ARE
00:24:12LOOKING INTO THESE ISSUES AND
00:24:13WHO HAVE CONFIRMED THAT THE
00:24:18COURT IS DOING MORE ON THE
00:24:22EMERGENCY DOCKET. NOW, IN
00:24:30NON-CAPITAL CASES THAN IT USED
00:24:33TO. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER AS
00:24:39TO WHY, BUT I DO THINK, UM, THAT
00:24:48THE COURT CAN CONTROL IT. YOU
00:24:52KNOW, I DISAGREE WITH SOME OF MY
00:24:57COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE, UM, MADE
00:25:07PUBLIC STATEMENTS SUGGESTING
00:25:15THAT, YOU KNOW, THE COURT REALLY
00:25:18HAS ITS HANDS TIED OR THAT THIS
00:25:24IS A FUNCTION OF A LOT MORE OF
00:25:33THESE CASES BEING
00:25:42FILED OR APPLICATIONS BEING
00:25:42FILED. AND PART PART OF MY
00:25:46RESPONSE IS, IF YOU BUILD IT,
00:25:54THEY WILL COME. UM, YOU KNOW,
00:25:58FIELD OF DREAMS, FOR THOSE OF
00:26:04YOU WHO ARE OLD ENOUGH TO
00:26:08REMEMBER THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, IF
00:26:16WE SIGNAL OR SUGGEST OUR
00:26:19WILLINGNESS TO, UM, GRANT THESE,
00:26:25THEN OF COURSE WE'RE GOING TO
00:26:28GET MORE OF THEM. BUT EVEN
00:26:37BEYOND THAT, IT IS NOT THE CASE.
00:26:44AND THIS WAS THE PART OF MY
00:26:48SPEECH TALK, COMPARING STAYS TO
00:26:54CERTIORARI. IT IS NOT THE CASE
00:27:00THAT THE COURT HAS TO DECIDE THE
00:27:05MERITS OF A STAY APPLICATION.
00:27:09THE COURT COULD ABSOLUTELY
00:27:14FILTER AND SAY, WE'RE ONLY GOING
00:27:16TO DO CERTAIN THINGS. AND THAT
00:27:22WAS COMMON BACK WHEN WE CLERKED.
00:27:29SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED
00:27:34TO THAT PRACTICE, BUT I PREFER
00:27:37IT TO WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW.
00:27:42>> IT'S DEFINITELY WORTH
00:27:48EMPHASIZING THAT THESE ARE
00:27:53DISCRETIONARY DECISIONS. AND SO
00:27:58THERE ARE CHOICES BEING MADE,
00:28:02EVEN IF THE WORLD
00:28:11AROUND THE COURT IS
00:28:12ACCELERATING. THESE KINDS OF
00:28:18CASES. AND SO, UM, I THINK
00:28:27PEOPLE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN
00:28:32KNOWING WHETHER YOU EVER TALK ABOUT THIS WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES
00:28:35OR IF YOU'RE COMMUNICATING
00:28:42THROUGH SPEECHES LIKE THIS AND
00:28:44THROUGH YOUR OPINIONS. IS THIS
00:28:49SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE GRAPPLE WITH BECAUSE YOU'RE.
00:28:53>> WELL, I MEAN, WE ARE ALL, UM,
00:28:58AS