Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00AND WHAT BESIDES OPENING HERE, WHAT NEEDS TO BE FINISHED?
00:00:06WELL YOU'LL NOTICE HER TAIL IS JUST KIND OF A GLASS OF BUTTER, RIGHT?
00:00:10YES, YES, YES, IT IS. AND THERE IS A FAMILY THAT WILL BE COMING SHORTLY.
00:00:12THEY DONATED TO THE BLUE RIBBON
00:00:15FOUNDATION, WHICH IS WORKING TO RESTORE THE FAIRGROUNDS AND.
00:00:19SO THEY WON AT THE AUCTION THE
00:00:21RIGHT TO COME AND HELP MAKE THE TAIL SO THEIR FAMILY WILL COME
00:00:25IN AND WE'LL CUT STRIPS TO DECORATE THE TAIL. SO THE PRIMARY THING THAT WE'LL
00:00:29BE ADDING TO THE COW, WHERE DO
00:00:31YOU KEEP BUTTER COW DURING THE YEAR?
00:00:35DOES IT DOES IT GET MELTED DOWN OR DOES IT BECOME A GLOB AGAIN?
00:00:39YEAH, EVERY YEAR. YEP. NEW BUTTER. NOW, EVERY YEAR THE BUTTER GETS
00:00:42OFF IT AND PUT BACK INTO THESE FIVE GALLON BUCKETS.
00:00:45YOU OVER HERE BEHIND ME AND
00:00:47STORED IN A COLD STORAGE JUMPER
00:00:50THAT OVER THE WINTER. DID YOU GROW UP GOING TO STATE FAIR? YES.
00:00:54YOU'RE IN IOWA. ARE YOU FROM? IOWA? I AM. AND BOTH MY PARENTS DID TO. YEAH.
00:01:00SARAH PRATT, THE SCULPTOR OF THE BUTTER COW. THANK YOU.
00:01:04YEGOOD AFTERNOON.
00:01:24THIS FEBRUARY 20TH, 2026 FOR A
00:01:30PROGRAM OF A CIVIL WAR GROUP.
00:01:33I'M ROGER ROSS AND TODAY WE HAVE
00:01:36A SPEAKER FRANCIS J.
00:01:38FRANK GARMAN, AUTHOR OF THE 2024
00:01:43BOOK CONFRONTING THAT HISTORY
00:01:47HOW A LOST CAUSE AND FRAUDULENT BOOK CAUSED THE JOHN WILKES
00:01:50BOOTH EXHUMATION TRIAL.
00:01:54GARMAN WAS, IN FACT, THE TRIAL ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENSE FOR THE
00:01:58DEFENSE IN THE CASE OF
00:02:00BALTIMORE'S GREEN MOUNT
00:02:04CEMETERY, GARMAN RECEIVED HIS
00:02:06B.A. IN FOREIGN SERVICE FROM THE
00:02:09GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF
00:02:11FOREIGN SERVICE AND HIS J.D.
00:02:13FROM GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW
00:02:15SCHOOL, WHERE HE SERVED AS EDITOR OF THE GEORGETOWN LAW
00:02:21JOURNAL FOR THE PAST HALF CENTURY.
00:02:23HE HAS BEEN A PRACTICING LAWYER SPECIALIZING IN BUSINESS
00:02:28LITIGATION AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND IS A FOUNDING
00:02:32PARTNER OF THE BALTIMORE LAW FIRM GORMAN.
00:02:35AND WILLIAMS IS A FELLOW OF THE
00:02:38AMERICAN COLLEGE OF TRIAL
00:02:40LAWYERS AND A MEMBER OF THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN
00:02:45HISTORIC CODES. AND WITH THAT, I GIVE YOU FRANK
00:02:50GORMAN.
00:03:02WELL, GOOD AFTERNOON, AND THANK YOU, EVERYBODY, FOR COMING.
00:03:07THANK YOU, ROD, FOR THAT VERY GENEROUS INTRODUCTION.
00:03:10AND I WANT TO THANK THE MAN THAT'S HELPED ME TOTE THE BOOKS
00:03:15AND I'M STAYING AT HIS HOME IN WASHINGTON.
00:03:18DAN HOWE, THANK YOU, DAN, SO
00:03:20WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT A SLICE OF HISTORY, CIVIL WAR
00:03:24HISTORY, AND WE'LL GET RIGHT INTO IT. THIS IS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK.
00:03:28AND IN CASE ANYBODY NEEDS REMINDING.
00:03:31YEAH, HOLD IT, HOLD IT, HOLD IT. OKAY, GOOD.
00:03:34SO LET'S GO TO.
00:03:38THE OUTLINE OF THE TALK.
00:03:43SO FIRST WE'RE GOING TO DO A LITTLE BACKGROUND THAT IS HISTORY.
00:03:46WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE BOOK THAT CAUSED THE EXHUMATION
00:03:50TRIAL AND THE MUMMY.
00:03:52AND THIRDLY, WE'LL TALK HOW THIS
00:03:56HISTORY DEBATE WORKED ITS WAY
00:03:58INTO THE LAW COURT AND THEN I'LL
00:04:00TELL YOU ABOUT THE TRIAL AND ALL
00:04:02THE WITNESSES, AND THEN WE'LL HAVE SOME RETROSPECTIVE AND
00:04:06COMMENTARY AND LOOK BACK A BIT AND IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS,
00:04:09FEEL FREE TO ASK THEM ANY TIME.
00:04:14SO I ALWAYS LIKE TO START WITH
00:04:17THIS COMPARISON OF TWO PICTURES
00:04:19OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SHOW,
00:04:23WHAT HAPPENED AND HOW WE AGED IN
00:04:25THE LAST TWO YEARS OF THE CIVIL WAR.
00:04:29HE WAS 56 WHEN HE WAS ASSASSINATED.
00:04:32AND THE PICTURE ON YOUR RIGHT IS
00:04:35THE PICTURE TAKEN ABOUT FEBRUARY OF 1865.
00:04:39THAT AND THEN HERE'S THE ARCH
00:04:43VILLAIN AGAIN. HIS AGE IS 26 AND IT ALWAYS
00:04:48SURPRISES ME, EVEN READING NEWSPAPERS AND LISTENING TO NEWS
00:04:52THAT A LOT OF KILLINGS, ESPECIALLY THE MASS KILLINGS,
00:04:56NOT ALL, BUT A LOT OF THEM ARE DONE BY YOUNGSTERS.
00:04:58AND THIS ASSASSINATION IS DONE
00:05:02BY WHAT LOOKS FROM MY AGE. AND THEN YOU FIND A YOUNGSTER.
00:05:05WHY DID THAT HAPPEN AFTER THE
00:05:12ASSASSINATION ON APRIL 14TH,
00:05:131865, SECRETARY OF WAR EDWIN
00:05:16STANTON TOOK CHARGE. HE FIRST WENT OVER WHEN HE GOT
00:05:21THE NEWS, HE WENT OVER TO SEWARD'S HOUSE.
00:05:25SEWARD WAS BLEEDING, INJURED, BUT WOULD SURVIVE.
00:05:28THEN HE WALKED OVER TO THE PETERSON HOUSE WHERE LINCOLN
00:05:32WAS, AND HE SET UP OFFICE RIGHT THERE.
00:05:36BEGAN ISSUING ORDERS AND BRINGING IN A FEDERAL DETECTIVE
00:05:39FROM NEW YORK TO ASSIST. YEAH. DO DID WHAT?
00:05:43A COMMANDER IN CHIEF WOULD DO IN SUCH AN EMERGENCY.
00:05:47BUT YOU MIGHT ASK, HOW ABOUT
00:05:51ANDREW JOHNSON? HE WAS A VICE PRESIDENT, FOR GOD'S SAKE.
00:05:54WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM? WELL, ANDREW JOHNSON, ON HIS
00:05:58INAUGURATION DAY, LINCOLN'S SECOND INAUGURATION, ANDREW
00:06:03JOHNSON'S FIRST AS VICE
00:06:04PRESIDENT, SHOWED UP DRUNK AND
00:06:07GAVE A DRUNKEN INAUGURAL
00:06:11ADDRESS. AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, HE LOST
00:06:13ALL CREDIBILITY WITH HIS CABINET
00:06:15FROM THE GET GO.
00:06:17SO JOHNSON JUST STAYED QUIET AND
00:06:21STEPPED BACK IN THE SHADOWS.
00:06:23SO BOTH ESCAPE ROOM IS HERE.
00:06:25EVERYBODY'S PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH IT. FORD'S THEATER, THEN THE SARRATT
00:06:30TAVERN. AND WE ALL KNOW THE NAME MARY SURRATT.
00:06:32THEY PICKED UP SOME WEAPONS
00:06:35THERE DOWN TO THE HOME OF DR. MUDD, WHERE HIS LEFT LEG WAS
00:06:38REPAIRED AS BEST AS POSSIBLE.
00:06:41AND THEN HE TRAVELED, BY THE
00:06:43WAY, HE WAS WITH ANOTHER FELLOW
00:06:45NAMED DAVID HEROLD, WHO WAS ALSO IN ON THE ASSASSINATION PLOT.
00:06:50AND THEY ENDED UP AT THE HOME OF
00:06:53SAMUEL COX, WHAT IS TODAY CALLED
00:06:57FAIR HILL, IN FACT, IS BEING
00:06:59RENOVATED DURING THIS TIME.
00:07:02HE STAYED THERE AND THEY SENT
00:07:05HIM TO THE WOODS.
00:07:07THEY WERE THERE FOR DAYS,
00:07:09WAITING FOR A GOOD TIME TO CROSS THE POTOMAC RIVER THERE WHILE
00:07:13THEY WERE IN THE WOODS.
00:07:15THEY KILLED THEIR HORSES BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID.
00:07:18THE HORSES NEIGHING WOULD LEAD THEM TO BE DISCOVERED BY THE
00:07:23FEDERAL TROOPS THAT WERE LOOKING
00:07:25FOR THEM AT THAT TIME.
00:07:27THEY DID CROSS THE RIVER ON THE
00:07:3022ND AFTER A FAILED ATTEMPT THE
00:07:34NIGHT BEFORE.
00:07:37AND WHEN THEY GOT TO VIRGINIA, THEIR FIRST STOP WAS TO A
00:07:40CONTACT NAMED QUEEN'S VERY WOMAN NAMED QUEENSBERRY, WHO DIRECTED
00:07:44THEM TO LUCAS'S FARM.
00:07:47THIS WAS A FARM OWNED BY A FREE
00:07:50BLACK AND LUCAS DIDN'T WANT TO
00:07:52HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BOOTH
00:07:55AND HAROLD, BUT BECAUSE HE HAD
00:07:58BEEN KIND OF INSTRUCTED TO BY
00:08:01MRS. QUEENSBERRY, HE LET THEM
00:08:03SLEEP IN THE CABIN AND KIND OF
00:08:07HELD THEM FOR A FEW DAYS. ONE DAY.
00:08:09ANYWAY, OVERNIGHT.
00:08:11AND THEN LUCAS HELPED THEM GET
00:08:13INTO A WAGON BECAUSE JOHN WILKES
00:08:15BOOTH COULDN'T WALK VERY WELL OR VERY LONG.
00:08:19I GOT INTO THE WAGON.
00:08:21LUCAS'S SON DROVE THE WAGON TO
00:08:23FORT CONWAY. SEE, THERE'S TWO PORTS IN THIS
00:08:28STORY. POOR CONWAY GOES OVER THE
00:08:31RAPPAHANNOCK RIVER, AND THEN THE NEXT ONE, AS YOU GO FURTHER
00:08:34SOUTH, YOU CROSS THE WELL.
00:08:36FIRST THE POTOMAC, AND THEN THE RAPPAHANNOCK. OKAY?
00:08:41SO THEY GET ACROSS THE RAPPAHANNOCK RIVER, AND THIS IS
00:08:44LIKE WITH YOU'VE BEEN DOWN 301 AND CROSSED INTO VIRGINIA AT
00:08:48PORT ROYAL FURTHER SOUTH, DOWN
00:08:51THREE OF A LINE ABOUT 10 OR 11 MILES IS WHERE THE GARRET FARM
00:08:55WAS.
00:08:55SO BACK UP HERE AT PORT CONWAY,
00:09:00HAROLD AND BOOTH HAD MET THREE
00:09:01CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS, EX
00:09:04CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS, SINCE THE
00:09:06WAR HAD RECENTLY ENDED, AND THEY
00:09:10TEAMED UP AND THEY STAYED WITH
00:09:12UNTIL THEY GOT TO LUCAS FARM.
00:09:16AND NO, SORRY, NOT LUCAS FARM,
00:09:19BUT UNTIL UNTIL THEY GOT OVER THE RAPPAHANNOCK, WHICH WAS
00:09:23AFTER LUCAS FARM. AND THEY SAID, WELL, WE CAN HELP
00:09:25YOU FIND A PLACE TO STAY.
00:09:29SO THEY TOOK HIM TO GARRETT'S FARM, WHICH IS ABOUT TEN MILES
00:09:32SOUTH OF PORT ROYAL.
00:09:34SO THAT'S HOW JOHN WILKES BOOTH GOT TO THE GARRETT FARM.
00:09:40AND HERE'S THE REST OF THE STORY.
00:09:42SO JOHN WILKES BOOTH GOT TO THE
00:09:45GARRETT FARM ON THE 24TH DURING
00:09:47THE DAY, AND HE STAYED THERE THAT NIGHT. BUT DAVID HEROLD DIDN'T BECAUSE
00:09:51HE WENT WITH THE SOLDIERS DOWN TO BOWLING GREEN. ONE OF THE SOLDIERS HAD A
00:09:54GIRLFRIEND DOWN THERE, SO THEY ALL TOOK OFF. AND JOHN WILKES BOOTH WAS ALONE
00:10:00AT THE GARRETT'S FARM ON THE 24TH.
00:10:02HE SLEPT THERE.
00:10:04THEN THE NEXT WAS THE 25TH, AND
00:10:09ON THE 25TH I'M GIVING YOU THE TRADITIONAL STORY, NOT THE OTHER
00:10:13STORY.
00:10:14ON THE 25TH, HAROLD RETURNS THE
00:10:18THE FARMER. MR. GARRETT IS NOW A LITTLE BIT
00:10:22SUSPICIOUS AS WELL. JOHN WILKES BOOTH HAD SLEPT IN
00:10:25THE HOUSE THE NIGHT BEFORE. HE WOULDN'T LET HIM DO IT.
00:10:28HAROLD AND BOOTH HAD TO SLEEP IN
00:10:31A BARN AND HIS SONS WERE AFRAID THAT THEY WOULD STEAL THE HORSES.
00:10:35SO THEY STAYED UP ALL NIGHT WATCHING THEM, AND THEY LOCKED THE BARN.
00:10:40SO ON THE 25TH, THERE WAS A
00:10:46CALVARY OF NEW YORK 16TH CALVARY WAR CAVALRY, WHICH WAS AFTER
00:10:50THEM. AND THEY WERE CLOSE ON THEIR HEELS.
00:10:54THEY WENT TO BOWLING GREEN. THEY GOT ONE OF THEIR SOLDIERS
00:10:56THERE TO TELL THEM WHERE HAROLD HAD GONE.
00:11:00THEY THEN JUST NOW, LIKE THREE IN THE MORNING, THEY ARRIVED
00:11:04BACK EARLY MORNING ON THE 26TH.
00:11:08THEY SURROUNDED THE BARN.
00:11:10THEY PUT THE BARN TO FIRE
00:11:12BECAUSE BOOTH WOULD NOT COME OUT EVENTUALLY.
00:11:15HAROLD HAROLD DID COME OUT AND
00:11:18THEY, OF COURSE, APPREHENDED HIM AND TIED HIM TO A TREE.
00:11:21BUT JOHN WILKES BOOTH REFUSED TO
00:11:22COME OUT THERE WAS COMMUNICATION BETWEEN HIM AND ONE OF THE
00:11:26PRIVATE DETECTIVES CONNECTED TO THE CAVALRY.
00:11:30BUT HE, LIKE AN FBI AGENT AND
00:11:32SAID THAT HE WANTED TO BE TAKEN
00:11:36DEAD OR ALIVE. HE WAS NOT COMING OUT VOLUNTARILY.
00:11:39HE WOULD LIKE TO COME OUT AND HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A FAIR
00:11:44BATTLE WITH HIS GUNS. AND THERE'S. SO THAT DIDN'T WORK.
00:11:48CONGER WAS ABOUT TO ENTER THE
00:11:52BARN DESPITE IT BEING BURNING BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE COULD MAKE A QUICK RUSH AND DRAG THE BODY
00:11:58OUT. BUT WHEN CONGER BEGAN TO MOVE, A
00:12:01SOLDIER WHO HAD HIS WEAPON THROUGH ONE OF THE SLATS OF THE
00:12:04BARN, BOSTON CORBETT SHOT BOOTH
00:12:07AS HE MADE HIS MOVE IN KIND OF THE SAME ANGLE IN WHICH BOOTH
00:12:11HAD SHOT LINCOLN. BOOTH FELL, PARALYZED.
00:12:15HE WAS TAKEN TO THE PORCH OF THE
00:12:19FARMHOUSE WHERE HE DIED A FEW HOURS LATER.
00:12:21SO HE DIED ON THE 26TH OF APRIL
00:12:24AT GARRETT'S FARM. LET'S GO BACK.
00:12:27OKAY, SO THIS PICTURE IS A
00:12:31DEPICTION IN 1865 BY THE IN THE
00:12:34LECIA FRANK, LESLIE'S NEWSPAPER
00:12:35OF BOOTH BEING DRAGGED OUT.
00:12:39HE SAW HE ARRIVED, AS HAPPENED ON THE 26TH.
00:12:43THEY TAKE HIM TO A BARGE ON THE
00:12:47POTOMAC AND UP TO POTOMAC RIVER.
00:12:49HE ARRIVES ON THE 27TH AND EARLY
00:12:52IN THE MORNING, 3 A.M. OR SO IN WASHINGTON.
00:12:56HE SITS THERE ON THE BARGE UNTIL 8 OR 9:00 IN THE MORNING.
00:13:00HE'S THEN THE NAVAL COMMANDER IS
00:13:02DIRECTED TO HAVE THE BARGE COME TO THE ANACOSTIA RIVER AND
00:13:07TRANSFER THE BODY TO THE MONTAUK, WHICH IS A MONITORED
00:13:12SHIP CLASS VESSEL. AND THERE HE SAW WHAT SAY WOULD
00:13:16BE FORT MCNAIR OR THE NAVY YARD.
00:13:18AND THAT'S WHERE AN AUTOPSY OF
00:13:21JOHN WILKES BOOTH, PLUS AN IDENTIFICATION TOOK PLACE.
00:13:24AND HERE'S A DEPICTION OF THAT.
00:13:26THE MAN IN THE MIDDLE IS SURGEON GENERAL BARNES. HE'S THE MAN THAT DID THE
00:13:32AUTOPSY. AND SO THAT WAS ABOUT 3:00 IN
00:13:35THE AFTERNOON, 4:00. AND THAT WAS ALL OVER ON THE
00:13:39MONTAUK CENTRAL CARRY WARRANTS.
00:13:41STANTON ORDERED GIDEON WELLS, WHO WAS SECRETARY OF THE NAVY,
00:13:44TO RELEASE THE BODY TO ONE OF
00:13:46THE FEDERAL DETECTIVES WHO PUT
00:13:50THEY LOWERED INTO A ROWBOAT AND THEY WENT DOWN THE POTOMAC.
00:13:53IT WAS BEGINNING TO GET DUSK. NO ONE WAS CAUGHT, AND THERE WERE PEOPLE WATCHING ON THE
00:13:57SHORE, NEVER QUITE SURE WHERE IT WENT.
00:14:00BUT AFTER THE DUST GOT A LITTLE
00:14:02DUST, THE THE EVENING MIST GOT A LITTLE HEAVIER.
00:14:05THEY DUCKED INTO THE ANACOSTIA
00:14:08RIVER, PULLED UP NEXT TO THE
00:14:10WASHINGTON ARSENAL, WHICH IS A PICTURE HERE NOW THAT NAVY YARD
00:14:15EXCUSE ME.
00:14:15NOW, THE FORT MCNAIR AND THE
00:14:19CAPTAIN GREETED THEM. THEY WALKED IN AND ONE OF THOSE WAREHOUSES YOU SEE AT THE BACK
00:14:22OF THE PICTURE, HE WAS BURIED IN A VERY SHALLOW GRAVE.
00:14:26SO THE POINT IS, ALL THIS
00:14:30HAPPENED IN ONE DAY. HE'S BROUGHT TO WASHINGTON.
00:14:33HE'S AUTOPSIES. HE'S IDENTIFIED, AND HE'S BURIED
00:14:37SECRETLY BURIED.
00:14:41SO THIS DIDN'T SIT WELL, OF
00:14:43COURSE, WITH INQUIRING MINDS.
00:14:46BUT PUTTING THAT ASIDE FOR A
00:14:49BIT, THE BOOTH FAMILY TRIED TO
00:14:51GET THE BODY RELEASED.
00:14:53MARY AND HOLMES BOOTH, WHO HAD
00:14:57IN 1821, ELOPED WITH JOHN WILKES
00:15:01BOOTH, FATHER JUNIUS. SHE WAS A FLOWER GIRL OUTSIDE A
00:15:04LONDON THEATER WHERE THEY WERE
00:15:06DOING SHAKESPEARE AND THEY RAN
00:15:09AWAY AND THEY ENDED UP IN
00:15:11NORFOLK AND EVENTUALLY CAME TO BALTIMORE.
00:15:13AND HERE'S A PICTURE OF MARY
00:15:17HOLMES ON THE ON THE LEFT ABOUT 1822.
00:15:21AND A PICTURE OF MARY AND HOLMES
00:15:26BOOTH. ABOUT 1875.
00:15:30SO DESPITE MANY REQUEST BY OR TO
00:15:34GENERAL GRANT BY EDWIN BRUCE EDWARD BOOTH, THE BROTHER OF
00:15:37JOHN WILKES, THE BODY WAS NOT
00:15:41BEING RELEASED BY THE PRESIDENT WHO COULD DO IT.
00:15:43BUT A BREAK CAME ONE ABOUT A
00:15:45WEEK EARLIER, ON FEBRUARY 9TH,
00:15:491869. PRESIDENT JOHNSON RELEASED THE
00:15:53BODY OF MARY SURRATT. HERE'S A PICTURE, A DEPICTION
00:15:58NOT A PICTURE, BUT A DRAWING OF MARY SURRATT WHEN SHE WAS AT THE
00:16:021865 TRIAL OF THE CONSPIRATORS. AND SHE DID WEAR A VEIL.
00:16:06SHE WAS A MODEST PERSON BACK THEN.
00:16:09WOMEN OFTEN WORE VEILS AND SHE
00:16:12AND ONE STENOGRAPHER WERE THE ONLY WOMEN IN THE IN THE COURTROOM.
00:16:18SO THAT'S HOW SHE APPEARED DURING THE TRIAL.
00:16:19BUT THE POINT IS, HER BODY WAS
00:16:22RELEASED, WHICH ENCOURAGED EDWIN.
00:16:26SO ANOTHER LETTER WAS SENT AND IT WAS DELIVERED TO A BALTIMORE
00:16:30UNDERTAKER NAMED WEAVER. THE LETTER WAS ADDRESSED TO
00:16:32PRESIDENT JOHNSON REQUESTING
00:16:34THAT HIS BROTHER'S BODY BE
00:16:37RELEASED TO JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:16:38MOTHER AND QUICKLY IT WAS
00:16:43GRANTED BY VICE PRESIDENT JOHNSON AND WEAVER STAYED THERE FOR 2 OR 3 HOURS IN THE DAY,
00:16:48WAITING. AND THEN THAT SAME DAY HE GOT THE ORDER.
00:16:50HE WENT DOWN WITH A LOCAL WASHINGTON UNDERTAKER.
00:16:54THE TWO OF THEM WENT DOWN TO THE ARSENAL AND THEY GOT THE BODY.
00:16:58THEY BROUGHT IT BACK TO WASHINGTON AND DID SOME
00:17:01PRELIMINARY WORK, PUT HIM IN A NEW CASKET. AND THEN THEY PUT HIM THAT NIGHT
00:17:05ON A TRAIN TO BALTIMORE.
00:17:09WHEN HE FIRST GOT TO BALTIMORE, HE WENT TO WEAVER'S FUNERAL ESTABLISHMENT.
00:17:13MORE PREPARATION OF THE BODY WERE IN ORDER.
00:17:16THE NEXT DAY, 4 OR 5 FAMILY
00:17:19MEMBERS AND OTHERS WHO DO, JOHN WILKES BOOTH CAME.
00:17:21THEY ALL IDENTIFIED HIM. BY THE WAY. I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THE
00:17:25IDENTIFICATIONS ON THE MAN TALK. ALL OF THEM, NOT ALL, BUT
00:17:29ANYBODY WHO WAS ASKED, IDENTIFIED THAT THIS WAS JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:17:33HE MARKS ON HIS TATTOOS AND, YOU KNOW, THE TOOTH THAT HAD BEEN
00:17:37REPLACED AND ETC. OKAY.
00:17:40SO THE IN FEBRUARY OF 1869, THEY
00:17:44COULDN'T BURY BOOTH BECAUSE THE GROUND WAS TOO HARD.
00:17:48IT WAS FROZEN. AND THEY DIDN'T DIG.
00:17:50THEY DON'T HAVE THE INSTRUMENTS THAT THEY HAVE TODAY TO DIG GRAVES WHEN THE GROUND IS
00:17:54FROZEN. BUT I SHOULD SAY GREENMOUNT
00:17:57CEMETERY TODAY AND DIGS ALL OF ITS GRAVES.
00:18:00BUT NEVERTHELESS, THE BODY WAS
00:18:03PUT IN WEAVER'S HOLDING VAULT IN FEBRUARY.
00:18:07AND IT WAS AND TO STAY THERE UNTIL PRESIDENT JOHNSON RELEASED THE BODY.
00:18:10I SHOW YOU THIS PICTURE OF THE FAMILY PLOT AND GREENMOUNT CEMETERY.
00:18:14GREENMOUNT CEMETERY IS IN BALTIMORE CITY AND I WRITE ABOUT
00:18:19IT IN THE BOOK. BUT IT'S A RURAL CEMETERY.
00:18:21THE VICTORIANS HAD PROBLEMS WITH DEATH AND SO THEY WANT A NICE
00:18:25SURROUNDING PICNIC LIKE SURROUNDINGS. AND THERE WAS THE FIRST ROLE
00:18:30CEMETERY WAS IN FRANCE AND IN 1848, BALTIMORE GOT THIS ONE.
00:18:34THERE'S ONE IN CAMBRIDGE,
00:18:36MASSACHUSETTS, CALLED AUBURN.
00:18:39SO ANYWAY, HERE'S THE CEMETERY.
00:18:41THERE'S THE OBELISK.
00:18:43THE OBELISK WAS NOT BUILT FOR BEAR FOR THIS PARTICULAR
00:18:48OCCASION.
00:18:49AND ON JUNE 26TH, 1869, MARY
00:18:53ANNE BOOTH'S FATHER AND HUSBAND
00:18:58WERE BURIED IN BALTIMORE CEMETERY, WHICH IS A COUPLE OF MILES AWAY.
00:19:01AND THAT'S WHERE THE OBLAST WAS,
00:19:04PROBABLY BECAUSE SHE HAD SO MANY
00:19:06CONNECTIONS TO GREENMOUNT CEMETERY, BECAUSE WEAVER HAD PUT
00:19:09A BODY IN HIS VAULT. SO HE DECIDED TO BUY A PLOT FOR
00:19:13THE FAMILY AGREEMENT CEMETERY
00:19:15AND HER FATHER OR EXCUSE ME,
00:19:19FATHER IN LAW AND HER HUSBAND
00:19:21WERE BROUGHT TO THIS BURIAL SITE
00:19:24AND BURIED A COUPLE OF DAYS
00:19:26BEFORE JOHN WILKES BOOTH AND BOB
00:19:30CAME WITH HIM. OKAY.
00:19:33SO WE HAVE JOHN WILKES BOOTH
00:19:35BODY DISPOSED MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY, WE HOPE, AND GO
00:19:39GOING BACK TO THE HISTORY, THERE
00:19:42WERE A LOT OF SIGHTINGS AND
00:19:44RUMORS OF SEEING JOHN WILKES BOOTH OVER THE YEARS.
00:19:49SO ONE OF THE EARLIEST ONES CAME OUT IN MAY.
00:19:51THIS IS ANOTHER ILLUSTRATION
00:19:53FROM FRANK LESLIE'S NEWSPAPER, WHICH WAS POPULAR IN THE 1860S.
00:19:57AND THEY HERE THEY HAD TWO MEN DROPPING A BODY BAG IN THE
00:20:01POTOMAC RIVER. AND THAT WAS THOUGHT, WELL, MAYBE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO
00:20:05BOOTH. OF COURSE NOT TRUE.
00:20:09HERE'S A WOMAN THAT IN 1898, A
00:20:13LONG TIME AFTER THE ASSASSINATION, SAID THAT SHE WAS
00:20:16ON A BOAT AND THE BOAT STOPPED
00:20:20AT HAVANA AND PICKED UP JOHN
00:20:22WILKES BOOTH AND TOOK HIM TO THE BAHAMAS.
00:20:25AND, OF COURSE, SHE WROTE THIS MORE THAN 30 YEARS LATER.
00:20:29AND ON AND ON IT GOES. THERE WERE MANY OF THEM.
00:20:33SO LET'S GET BETWEEN THEN THE
00:20:381865, 18 AND THE THE CIVIL WAR
00:20:40ERA TO THE CURRENT TIME WHEN I
00:20:44WAS GOT INVOLVED IN THIS CASE,
00:20:471994 AND 95. LOOK AT ALL THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.
00:20:51THE BLACK CODES WHICH PREVENTED
00:20:53WHERE AFRICAN AMERICANS COULD
00:20:55WORK AND BASICALLY KEPT THEM AS
00:20:58IN IN IN SLAVE STATUS, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FREE.
00:21:02NOW, THE CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS THAT
00:21:04WERE PASSED SURPRISINGLY BACK IN THE CONGRESS, EVEN BACK THEN,
00:21:07THERE WERE CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS,
00:21:101866, 1875, THEY WERE UNDERMINED
00:21:13INITIALLY BY PRESIDENT ANDREW
00:21:15JOHNSON AND BY THE COURTS.
00:21:17THE 13TH, 14TH AND 15TH
00:21:20AMENDMENT, THE 13TH, OUTLAWING
00:21:23FORBIDDING SLAVERY, THE 14TH DUE PROCESS, EQUAL PROTECTION AND
00:21:26THE 15TH ALLOWING BLACKS TO VOTE.
00:21:29THOSE AMENDMENTS WEREN'T REALLY
00:21:33IMPLEMENTED AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE COURTS,
00:21:36SUPREME COURT AND OTHER LOWER
00:21:38COURTS WEAKENED THOSE
00:21:41PROVISIONS. RECONSTRUCTION ENDED AND, YOU
00:21:44KNOW, RECONSTRUCTION I USED TO THINK OF AS A KID THAT THAT
00:21:48MEANS BUILDING BACK THE BUILDINGS. NO, IT DOESN'T.
00:21:51IT MEANS TO THE RADICAL
00:21:55REPUBLICANS IT MEANT TOTALLY
00:21:57OVERHAUL SOUTHERN SOCIETY AND SOUTHERN CULTURE.
00:22:02TOTALLY THREW THE MORE MODERATES LIKE LINCOLN WAS.
00:22:06IT MEANT LENIENCY, GRADUAL,
00:22:09GETTING THEM BACK IN THE FOLD,
00:22:11NOT BEING TOO HARSH, MAYBE NOT HAVING SO MANY TROOPS, MAYBE NOT
00:22:14HAVING TROOPS THERE AT ALL. AND THEN TO A GUY LIKE VICE
00:22:19PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON, IT
00:22:21DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING AT ALL.
00:22:23AND THEN EVENTUALLY, AS WE GET
00:22:26INTO THE GILDED AGE, THE NORTH LOSES INTEREST IN THE PROBLEMS
00:22:30WITH THE SOUTH.
00:22:31THE SOUTH'S A LOST CAUSE, TAKES
00:22:34HOLD, LETS THE LAW CAUSE WELL,
00:22:36IT'S A ROMANCE SIZE VERSION OF
00:22:39SOUTHERN CULTURE AND A
00:22:41ROMANTICIZED VERSION OF THE
00:22:43CIVIL WAR, NONE OF WHICH ARE REALLY TRUE.
00:22:47BUT THAT TOOK HOLD IN THE SOUTH.
00:22:49CERTAIN NOT ONLY JIM CROW LAWS, WHICH ARE SKIPPED OVER.
00:22:53THERE'S I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO THAT.
00:22:55THE JIM CROW LAWS BASICALLY WE
00:22:58TOOK CUSTOMS AND OUTLAWED THEM.
00:23:00YOU MAY NOT HAVE DINNER IN THIS
00:23:03RESTAURANT WITH A BLACK MAN OR BLACK PERSON. YOU CANNOT HAVE BLACKS AND
00:23:08WHITES ON THE SAME TRAIN CAR. YOU CANNOT HAVE BLACKS AND
00:23:10WHITES SITTING UP FRONT IN A BUS. ON AND ON THEY WENT.
00:23:14SO WHEN THERE WAS DISCRIMINATION
00:23:16IN THE SOUTH, IT WAS LEGALLY
00:23:20REQUIRED. OKAY. THE LAST CLAUSE TAKES HOLD.
00:23:23AND I HAVE TO SAY, AND HONESTLY, EVEN THE NORTH THERE DIDN'T HAVE
00:23:27ANY JIM CROW LAWS. BUT A LOT OF THE LAWS CAUSED
00:23:30STUFF BECAME CUSTOM AND PRACTICE. YOU KNOW, HOW MANY TIMES WHEN I
00:23:34WAS GROWING UP DID I SIT DOWN BEFORE I WAS 25 AND HAVE DINNER
00:23:38WITH A BLACK PERSON? ZERO.
00:23:41IT JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE OF CUSTOM AND PRACTICE.
00:23:45SO IT'S NOT JUST THE SOUTH, IT'S
00:23:47ALL OF US, BUT THE SOUTH'S LAWS CAUSE IS PARTICULARLY EGREGIOUS.
00:23:51AND AS A RESULT, CIVIL RIGHTS FOR THE BLACK WERE SET BACK.
00:23:57SO. SO THE TRADITIONAL HISTORY OF
00:24:01BOOTH CAPTURE AND DEATH WAS CHALLENGE IN 1907.
00:24:04AND IT WAS CHALLENGE IN A BOOK
00:24:06CALLED THE ESCAPE, THE ESCAPE AND SUICIDE OF JOHN WILKES
00:24:10BOOTH. I PUT A COPY OF THAT BOOK ON ONE OF THE TABLES AND YOU COULD TAKE
00:24:13A LOOK AND PASS IT AROUND, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. NOW, THAT'S NOT THE ORIGINAL
00:24:17BINDING OF THE BOOK, BUT I HAVE
00:24:19A PHOTOCOPY OF WHAT THE ORIGINAL BINDING LOOK LIKE, AND IT'S VERY
00:24:25ANNOTATED BY ME WITH PAPER CLIPS AND NOTES.
00:24:28BUT THAT'S THAT'S THE BOOK.
00:24:30SO WHAT IS THE STORY IN THE BOOK? I WANT TO TRY TO GET IT
00:24:35SUCCINCTLY. THERE WAS A LAWYER NAMED FINESSE ALBERTS.
00:24:38HE WAS BORN IN MISSISSIPPI
00:24:40AROUND 1850, WHILE THE CIVIL WAR WAS GOING ON.
00:24:42HE WAS STUDYING LAW WITH HIS OLDER BROTHER IN A PLACE CALLED
00:24:48CARROLLTON, MISSISSIPPI.
00:24:50AT THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR, HE
00:24:52WAS, QUOTE, PRACTICING LAW.
00:24:55HE GOT MARRIED, BUT HE MOVED TO
00:24:58TEXAS, SOUTH WEST TEXAS, OUTSIDE
00:25:02OF WEST OF EL PASO AND NOT EL
00:25:06PASO, BUT WEST OF DALLAS.
00:25:08AND FORT WORTH AND HIS FAMILY,
00:25:10INDEED, HAD MOVED TO TEXAS TO A
00:25:13FAMILY, HAD BUSINESSES, STORES AND SUCH.
00:25:17BUT MISSISSIPPI WAS DEVASTATED.
00:25:19THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ECONOMIC, REALLY.
00:25:22THE TECH WEST TEXAS WAS NOT SO BAD. SO HE WENT THERE.
00:25:26HE STARTED PRACTICING LAW THERE. AND HE SAYS IN 1872, HE HELPED A
00:25:31MAN NAMED JOHN ST ALLEN. I WON'T GO INTO HOW HE HELPED,
00:25:35BUT A LAWYER SERVICE AND THEN HE
00:25:39GOT A CALL SOME MONTHS LATER
00:25:42THAT THIS FELLA, JOHN ST HOWARD, WAS ON HIS DEATHBED AND HAD
00:25:47ASKED THAT BATES BE BROUGHT TO HIM. SO BATES GOES TO HIM.
00:25:50HE'S ON THE JOHN SEES HOW HIS LIVING LAYING THERE AND HE
00:25:54WEIGHS OVER. BATES NOW, THIS IS ALL ACCORDING
00:25:57TO THE BOOK, AS THEY USED TO SAY.
00:26:00IT'S IN THE BOOK.
00:26:02SO HE WHISPERS, I AM JOHN WILKES
00:26:07BOOTH, THE ASSASSIN OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN.
00:26:10IF I DIE, CONTACT EDWIN BOOTH IN
00:26:14NEW YORK. SO A COUPLE OF WEEKS LATER,
00:26:19BATES FINDS OUT THAT HE MIRACULOUSLY RECOVERED. HE'S FINE.
00:26:23HE SEES THEM. HE SAYS, LOOK, DID YOU REMEMBER TELLING ME THAT YOU WERE JOHN
00:26:26WILKES BOOTH? HE SAYS, YES. WELL, YOU GOT TO TELL ME MORE.
00:26:30I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS. SO A FEW DAYS LATER, THEY TAKE A
00:26:34WALK AND THEY TAKE A WALK AND
00:26:36JOHN OF JOHN SAINT HELEN. WHO'S JOHN WHO IS JOHN WILKES?
00:26:40BOOTH GIVES THIS FULL
00:26:42CONFESSION, AND HE SAYS LOTS OF THINGS IN IT THAT SET UP
00:26:47CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT THE TRADITIONAL HISTORY IS NOT AWARE
00:26:51OF. THAT'S A PICTURE OF JOHN SAINT HELEN. THAT'S THE ONE THAT BATES WAS
00:26:57GIVEN TO, OR BY JOHN SAINT HELEN
00:26:59TO BATES. BUT IT HAD BEEN FOLDED SO REALLY
00:27:03HARD TO USE IT TO IDENTIFY, OH,
00:27:07I'M GOING TO GO THERE TO TWO QUICK.
00:27:10SO HE TELLS THEM THIS WHOLE STORY.
00:27:13HE SAYS THAT WHEN WE WERE AT THE
00:27:17COX PLANTATION OF A PLANTATION
00:27:22OVERSEER IS A NAME, RUDDY JOINED US THAT THERE WERE REALLY THREE
00:27:23OF US THAT CROSSED CROSSED INTO
00:27:27THE THE TOMAC RIVER AND THEN ACROSS THE RAPPAHANNOCK.
00:27:30AND THERE WERE REALLY THREE OF
00:27:32US WHO ARRIVED AT GARRETT FARM
00:27:35AND RUDDY DID STAY WITH BOOTH
00:27:40AND HAROLD WENT TO BOWLING GREEN, AS I MENTIONED.
00:27:43AND WHILE BOOTH AND RUDDY,
00:27:48ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, WERE THERE, BOOTH SAYS, I'VE LOST MY
00:27:52DIARY AND I MUST HAVE LOST IT
00:27:54WHEN I WAS IN THE WAGON LEAVING THE THE THE.
00:27:57COX THE LUCAS FARM.
00:28:00SO GO BACK AND FIND THEM. MAYBE THEY'RE IN THE WAGON.
00:28:04SO RUDDY DUTIFULLY GOES BACK AND
00:28:08THEN LATER IN THE AFTERNOON OF.
00:28:13THE 25TH OF APRIL TO CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS COME AT JOHN WILKES
00:28:17BOOTH, THE ONLY THE GARRETT'S ARE AROUND, BUT HE'S IN THE
00:28:19WOODS KIND OF RELAXING.
00:28:23AND THESE TWO GUYS FIND HIM. THEY HAVE A SPARE HORSE.
00:28:26THEY SAY THE FEDERAL CAVALRY IS
00:28:28NEAR YOU BETTER GET OUT OF HERE.
00:28:30SO, BOOTH HOPS ON HIS HORSE AND STARTS RIDING WEST.
00:28:34ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, HE DOESN'T STOP TILL HE'S AT THE MISSISSIPPI.
00:28:38HE THEN GOES ON THROUGH AND ENDS
00:28:41UP IN TEXAS AND THAT'S THE STORY.
00:28:44OKAY, SO THAT'S THE ESCAPE STORY. IT'S NOT AN ESCAPE FROM
00:28:48WASHINGTON. WE ALL KNOW HE ESCAPED FROM WASHINGTON.
00:28:51IT'S AN ESCAPE FROM JUSTICE.
00:28:53ALL RIGHT. SO MR. BATES LEAVES TEXAS.
00:28:59SO DOES JOHN, SAYING HELEN TAIN. HELEN GOES WEST TO MIND FOR HIS FORTUNE.
00:29:03AND BATES GOES BACK TO
00:29:06MISSISSIPPI PRACTICE LAW IN
00:29:07GREENVILLE, MISSISSIPPI.
00:29:10HE HIS WIFE DIES, SO HE MARRIES AGAIN.
00:29:12AND A YOUNG WOMAN IN MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE.
00:29:15AND HE ENDS UP PRACTICING LAW IN MEMPHIS.
00:29:18THAT'S WHEN IN 1903, HE READS
00:29:22THAT THERE WAS A MAN AND ENID, OKLAHOMA, WHO DIED.
00:29:25AND ON HIS DEATHBED, HE SAID, I AM JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:29:29SO HE COULDN'T RESIST THAT.
00:29:31HE GOT ON A TRAIN AND WENT OUT THERE, WENT TO THE FUNERAL
00:29:36PARLOR, SAW THE BODY AND SAID,
00:29:38THIS IS MY OLD FRIEND JOHN
00:29:42WILKES BOOTH. SO HE IDENTIFIED THE BODY THAT IT GOT.
00:29:45ACCORDING TO THE BOOK. SO HERE'S WHAT HE SAW.
00:29:49THIS IS DAVID GEORGE.
00:29:51AND DURING THE TRIAL, WHICH I'LL
00:29:53TELL YOU ABOUT, THE JUDGE WAS ALWAYS COMPARING THE SIZE OF THE
00:29:57HANDS, THE NOSE, THE HEAD, THE EYEBROWS TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY
00:30:01RESEMBLANCE TO THE MANY PICTURES
00:30:03OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH AND NOT TO
00:30:06GET TOO FAR AHEAD OF MYSELF. WE DIDN'T FIND MANY.
00:30:11OKAY. SO THE BATES CONSPIRACY STORIES, BE QUICK.
00:30:14FIRST, VICE PRESIDENT JOHNSON IS
00:30:17PART OF THE STORY. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
00:30:21BOOTH COMES BACK TO WASHINGTON. HE IN THE CONFESSION ON THE 14TH, HE GOES TO THE FORD
00:30:26THEATER, PICKS UP HIS MAIL, GOES RIGHT TO KIRKWOOD WOODHOUSE,
00:30:29WHERE VICE PRESIDENT JOHNSON HAS A ROOM.
00:30:31IT WAS JOHNSON IN THE AFTERNOON
00:30:34OF THE 14TH, SAYS THE WAR IS OVER.
00:30:36LEE SURRENDERED. WE'RE NOT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
00:30:40KIDNAP LINCOLN ANYMORE TO EXCHANGE FOR SOUTHERN PRISONER.
00:30:44SO IT'S DONE. AND JOHNSON SAYS, ACCORDING TO
00:30:47THE BOOK, WHAT AT AT THIS
00:30:52IMPORTANT MOMENT, YOU'RE GOING TO FALTER.
00:30:55YOU'VE GOT TO KILL HIM. TO WHICH BOOTH SAYS HE'S GOING
00:30:59WITH GENERAL GRANT, HE'S GOING
00:31:01TO HAVE ALL KINDS OF SOLDIERS WITH HIM.
00:31:04IF I TRY TO ASSASSINATE LINCOLN, I'LL BE A DEAD MAN.
00:31:07TO WHICH VICE PRESIDENT JOHNSON
00:31:10GETS UP AND SAYS, I'LL BE BACK AGAIN.
00:31:13ALL ACCORDING TO THE BOOK. HE COMES BACK AND SAYS, GENERAL.
00:31:16AND AFTER AN HOUR, GENERAL
00:31:18GRANT'S NOT GOING. AND HERE'S THE PASSWORD TO USE
00:31:22WHEN YOU GO OVER THE ANACOSTIA BRIDGE.
00:31:24THE OTHER CONSPIRACY IS THAT.
00:31:29THE THEY KNEW THE GUYS IN THE CALVARY, THE TWO DETECTIVE, ESPECIALLY LAFAYETTE TO BAKER,
00:31:34THE SENIOR, HE HAD KNOWN, HE
00:31:40KNEW THAT IT REALLY WAS NOT JOHN
00:31:42WILKES BOOTH, THE BODY THEY
00:31:44BROUGHT TO WASHINGTON, BUT
00:31:46BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES,
00:31:48STANTON AND AND BAKER WENT AHEAD
00:31:53WITH THE BURIAL, KNOWING THEY BURY THE WRONG MAN.
00:31:58CONSPIRACY ONE IS LAID OUT IN DETAIL.
00:32:01CONSPIRACY C TWO IS MORE OR LESS ALLUDED TO.
00:32:06OKAY. AND THE MUMMY?
00:32:10WELL, THE PROPRIETOR OF THE
00:32:13FUNERAL HOME IN ENID, OKLAHOMA, GUY NAMED PENNINGTON. AND YOU CAN SEE HERE THAT
00:32:17PENNINGTON HAD SOME BUSINESSES ALONG THIS HIGHWAY.
00:32:19THIS PICTURE IS IN IT IN ABOUT
00:32:221906, PENNIMAN KEPT A BODY IN
00:32:25THE FUNERAL PARLOR AND PEOPLE
00:32:27STARTED COMING TO SEE THE BODY OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:32:31HE HAD BEEN EMBALMED. THEY EMBALMED HIM AGAIN, AND
00:32:34PEOPLE STARTED PAYING. AND PENNIMAN, AFTER A COUPLE OF
00:32:38YEARS STARTING MAKING MONEY ON THIS. AND THE KILLERS, GUESS WHO
00:32:42DIDN'T LIKE THAT? FIND A CELL.
00:32:43BATES HE WANTED THE BODY SO THEY
00:32:46TUSSLED OVER THE BODY FOR ABOUT TILL ABOUT 18.
00:32:49EXCUSE ME, 1916, 1970S, THAT TO CLEAR.
00:32:52BUT EVENTUALLY PENNIMAN RETIRED
00:32:54AND SOLD THE MUMMY TO BATES.
00:32:58SO HERE'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. THIS IS THE MUMMY.
00:33:01THEY MUMMIFIED IT SO OFTEN IT
00:33:04BECAME BRITTLE.
00:33:06AND YOU'LL SEE HERE THE MUMMY IS
00:33:08ON EXHIBIT EXHIBITION, THE BODY
00:33:10OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH, THE ASSASSIN, ETC. ETC.
00:33:14HERE'S ANOTHER SHOT WHERE THERE ARE SELLING TICKETS AND LOOK WE
00:33:18SEE FINEST SELL.
00:33:21BATES IS HIS NAME AND YOU CAN SEE DOWN BELOW EX ATTORNEY
00:33:24GENERAL OF TENNESSEE FINEST
00:33:27BATES WAS NEVER ATTORNEY GENERAL
00:33:29OF TENNESSEE.
00:33:32SO THE MODERN DAY PROPONENTS
00:33:35LIKE NATHANIEL OR LUKE ON YOUR
00:33:37RIGHT AND ARTHUR BEN CHERRY
00:33:39EXCUSE ME, ARTHUR. BEN CHERRY ON YOUR RIGHT AND ALL THE WORK ON THE LEFT.
00:33:43THESE ARE THE FELLOWS WHO AND
00:33:45BEGINNING IN THE 50S AND 60S AND
00:33:4770S STARTED AGITATING FOR THE
00:33:49BOOTH ESCAPE JUSTICE STORY BASED
00:33:51ON THE BATES BOOK.
00:33:54ALL ALSO WORK AS A MARYLANDER
00:33:56FOR AN EDUCATOR, AND DR. CHITTY
00:34:00WAS A KIND OF THE HISTORIAN FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH.
00:34:05THAT'S 20.
00:34:07BUT WHAT GAVE THEM A BIG BOOST?
00:34:09THEY WERE PESTERING NBCS
00:34:11UNSOLVED MYSTERIES AND ROBERT
00:34:14STACK RAN AN EPISODE OF THE
00:34:16BOOTH ESCAPE JUSTICE.
00:34:20IN SEPTEMBER 1991. IT RAISED THE PUBLIC
00:34:23CONSCIOUSNESS AND EMBOLDEN ALL
00:34:26AWAKE AND CHITTY.
00:34:30SO NOW WE GET INTO THE LAW.
00:34:35IN 1994, OCTOBER SPECIFICALLY,
00:34:37THEY FILED A PETITION TO EXHUME.
00:34:40PETITION IS LIKE A COMPLETE IT, BUT IT'S EQUITABLE.
00:34:43SO THEY CALL IT A PETITION.
00:34:46IN THE PETITION IT SAYS, QUOTE,
00:34:48THE BATES ESCAPE STORY IS THE
00:34:52ONLY ESCAPE STORY WITH ITS
00:34:54CREDIBILITY AND PERSUASIVENESS
00:34:57INTACT, THEY WERE RELYING ON THE BASE BOOK AS THE HISTORY
00:35:01JUSTIFYING THE EXHUMATION.
00:35:03SO LIKE ANY LAWYER AND I WON'T TELL YOU NOW, I CAN TELL YOU
00:35:06LATER THIS CASE FELL INTO MY LAP.
00:35:08I DID NOT DO NOT PRACTICE
00:35:11CEMETERY LAW, BUT I DO TRY CASES
00:35:15AND I DID DO THAT. SO YOU EVALUATE THE CASE, YOU LINE UP YOUR WITNESSES, YOU GET
00:35:18AN ORDER OF PROOF, WHICH IS A FUNDAMENTAL THING. A LOT OF LAWYERS FORGET.
00:35:21YOU'VE GOT TO DECIDE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT THAT MOMENT
00:35:25WHEN THIS TRIAL STARTED, SAYS MR. GORMAN. CALL YOUR FIRST WITNESS.
00:35:30OH, I HAVE A WHOLE LIST OF WITNESSES. BUT I HADN'T DECIDED WHO'S GOING FIRST.
00:35:33SO YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT YOUR ORDER OF PROOF IS AND HOW ARE
00:35:36YOU GOING TO GET YOUR KEY DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE IN.
00:35:40SO WE DID EVALUATE THE CASE. WE WERE ABLE TO KICK OUT ALL THE
00:35:44WORKERS CHERRY US PETITIONER LEAVING TO OTHER WOMEN WHO CLAIM
00:35:46TO BE RELATIVE AS I HAD TO
00:35:50FIGURE OUT HOW TO TRY A HISTORY CASE.
00:35:53EVENTUALLY IN THIS CASE I DECIDED IT WAS WE'RE GOING TO
00:35:57PRESENT ALL THE IDENTIFICATION
00:35:59OF THE BODY ALONG THE WAY, AND THAT WAS OUR THEME. THIS WOMAN HERE, NOW DECEASED,
00:36:04WAS WITH THE SURRATT SOCIETY. SHE WAS WONDERFUL.
00:36:06AND EXPLORER AND FINDING EXPERTS
00:36:09AND PUTTING US IN CONTACT WITH
00:36:12THEM, LINING UP EXPERT WITNESSES
00:36:15WITH HELP FROM LAURIE AND A FELLOW NAMED JAMES OLD HALL, WHO
00:36:20ALSO TESTIFIED, MICHAEL KAUFMAN AND TERRY ALFORD.
00:36:22I KNOW TERRY SPOKEN HERE TWICE.
00:36:26STEVEN MILLER, JAMES STARRS WITH MY HAND AND THE CLEANUP HITTER.
00:36:30SO THEY WERE OUR WITNESSES. AND THE THEME, SO MANY
00:36:34IDENTIFICATIONS, WE DIVIDED IT UP, FORGED THEATER TOGETHER AT FARM GARRARD FARM.
00:36:38ROSS A LOT OF SOLDIERS WERE AND THEN GARRETT FARM TO GREENMOUNT
00:36:43CEMETERY. SO LET'S LOOK AT THE TRIAL. HERE'S THE COURTHOUSE THAT IT
00:36:46WAS TRIED.
00:36:47IT MAY 1995.
00:36:52THIS USED TO BE A FEDERAL COURTHOUSE, BUT IT WAS TURNED
00:36:55OVER AND DEEDED ON A LONG TERM LEASE TO THE CITY OF BALTIMORE.
00:36:5916 WITNESSES TESTIFIED HERE. THEY ARE AT THE TOP.
00:37:02WE HAVE JUDGE KAPLAN, THE ONLY
00:37:04FELLOW THAT'S NOT SHOWN IN THIS
00:37:08COLLAGE IS ON DAY ONE.
00:37:10THERE WAS A GUY NAMED DOUGLAS
00:37:13HUBER LACKER, A VERY PRESTIGIOUS ANTHROPOLOGIST FROM THE
00:37:17SMITHSONIAN. I TRIED FOR YEARS TO CONTACT HIM
00:37:20DIRECTLY THROUGH INTERMEDIARIES. I NEVER DID, SO I NEVER GOT
00:37:24PERMISSION TO USE HIS PHOTO.
00:37:27JUDGE KAPLAN, I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME.
00:37:30WONDERFUL JUDGE WENT TO NORTHWESTERN.
00:37:34NO, YOU'RE NEVER CHICAGO LAW SCHOOL. HE WAS GOING TO BE A PARTNER.
00:37:37HE WAS A YOUNG PARTNER TO VENABLE, A LARGE FIRM.
00:37:40TODAY WAS LARGE BACK THEN.
00:37:42HE TURNED IT DOWN AND BECAME A
00:37:45CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE IN BALTIMORE
00:37:47CITY FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER AFTER
00:37:49HE PRACTICED REALLY, REALLY GOOD JUDGE.
00:37:52THEY CALL HIM THE BEST JUDGE.
00:37:54YOU YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF. OKAY.
00:37:57THAT THE SO-CALLED DESCENDANTS
00:37:59VIRGINIA ELEANOR CLINE, SHE CLAIMED THAT SHE WAS A FIRST
00:38:03COUSIN, TWICE REMOVED. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO INTO ALL
00:38:06THE DETAILS AS TO HOW SHE GOT THERE.
00:38:08SECOND WAS LOIS RATHBURN, THE
00:38:11GREAT GREAT GRAND NIECE OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:38:14SHE WAS THE GREAT, GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF HIS BROTHER,
00:38:18EDWIN BOOTH, THE FAMOUS ACTOR. SO THEY WERE THE PETITIONERS
00:38:22MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY WHO HAD A RIGHT TO SPEAK.
00:38:24THIS WOMAN, HER HER LINEAGE GOES
00:38:29TO THE BIBLE AND NO FORMAL RECORDS.
00:38:32THEY ALLOWED HER TO TALK AND THEY PUT HER ON AS A WITNESS.
00:38:36BUT SHE DIDN'T CLAIM TO HAVE ANY
00:38:42DOCUMENTED GOVERNMENT RECORD
00:38:44DOCUMENT THAT REMINDS ME, I DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT A LAWYER
00:38:47ON THE OTHER SIDE. YOU PROBABLY HAVE HEARD OF HIM.
00:38:51HIS NAME IS MARK ZAID. ZAID.
00:38:53HE TODAY IS A VERY WELL KNOWN
00:38:56NATIONAL SECURITY LAWYER.
00:38:57IF YOU WATCH NBC NOW, YOU'LL SEE HIM.
00:39:00IF YOU JUST HANG IN THERE FOR A WEEK.
00:39:02I KNOW HE'LL BE ON AND, YOU
00:39:05KNOW, HE'S HE'S VERY ACTIVE AND
00:39:10WHISTLEBLOWER HOURS FROM THE CIA, PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WRITE BOOKS, WHO USED TO WORK AT THE FBI.
00:39:14THOSE KINDS OF CASES. OKAY.
00:39:16HERE'S DOUG HOOVER LECTURE.
00:39:20THERE'S HIS TITLE. HE WAS THE FIRST WITNESS ON THE SUBSTANCE.
00:39:23AND HE WAS VERY GOOD, TREMENDOUS CREDENTIALS.
00:39:27BUT HE REALLY WASN'T PREPARED OR
00:39:30HE HADN'T BEEN ASKED THE HARD QUESTIONS.
00:39:32HE SAID WE COULD DO THIS. WE WERE GOING TO USE PHOTO IMPOSITION.
00:39:36WE'RE GOING TO GET THE SKULL, TAKE A PICTURE OF THE SKULL,
00:39:40DIGITIZE IT, COMPARE THAT TO
00:39:43MANY, MANY PICTURES WE HAVE OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH AND SEE IF WE
00:39:46CAN'T GET A MATCH. SO ON CROSS EXAMINATION, I ASKED
00:39:50HIM THINGS LIKE, HOW LONG IS THIS GOING TO TAKE?
00:39:54AND HE SAID.
00:39:57SIX MONTHS, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE.
00:39:59AND THAT I LOOKED AT THE JUDGE
00:40:02AND HE HE WENT SIX MONTHS.
00:40:05NOW, OSWALD HAD BEEN EXISTING
00:40:07AND THERE WAS A LAWSUIT OVER IT,
00:40:10BUT HE WAS ONLY OUT OF THE GRAVE FOR ABOUT THREE HOURS.
00:40:14AND THAT'S TRUE OF OTHER FAMOUS
00:40:17MAYBE NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT OTHER FAMOUS EXHUMATIONS.
00:40:22SO SIX MONTHS, THE BODY WOULD TAKE BE TAKEN TO WASHINGTON,
00:40:26D.C., OUT OF THE JURISDICTION OF THE STATE OF MARYLAND.
00:40:30DR. HOOVER LECTURE, WHAT'S THE SALINITY?
00:40:33WHAT'S THE WHAT'S THE MAKEUP?
00:40:35HOW ACID IS THE GROUND? IS THERE ANY UNDERWATER STREAM?
00:40:39NONE OF THAT HE COULD ANSWER. SO HE HADN'T DONE HIS HOMEWORK.
00:40:42I DON'T REALLY BLAME HIM, BUT HE WASN'T HAPPY ABOUT HIS CROSS
00:40:47EXAMINATION. THE MEDICAL EXAMINER FOR THE
00:40:50STATE OF MARYLAND SAID ALL OUR FACILITIES WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE IF YOU ORDER AN
00:40:55EXHUMATION. THIS IS A FELLOW, PAUL SLEZAK.
00:40:58HE'S NOW RETIRED FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
00:41:00HE WAS WITH THE ARMED FORCES INSTITUTE OF PATHOLOGY.
00:41:04I'LL JUST SAY HE TESTIFIED THAT THERE'S NO WAY WE CAN USE DNA
00:41:08BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY
00:41:10MATTER OF LINEAL MATCH. THAT'S ALL CHANGED TODAY.
00:41:14HERE'S OUR WITNESS ON
00:41:16EXHUMATION, JAMES STARRS. HE WAS A PROFESSOR OF LAW OF
00:41:20FORENSIC SCIENCE AT GEORGE WASHINGTON. HE HAD DUG UP A LOT OF PEOPLE,
00:41:24LIZZIE BORDEN, ALFRED PACKER. I COULD GO ON.
00:41:27HE WAS AN EXPERT ON EXHUMATION
00:41:29AND HE HAD A LIST OF CRITERIA
00:41:33BEFORE YOU DO EXCLAMATIONS. AND HE PUBLISHED A MONTHLY
00:41:35NEWSLETTER AND SO OF COURSE, HE WENT OVER HIS LIST OF
00:41:39FUNDAMENTAL CRITERIA. AND I THINK THERE WERE 10 OR 12
00:41:42AND THIS MET ONLY 1 OR 2.
00:41:45AND HE SAID THE KEY THING IN THE
00:41:49TRIAL, I ASKED HIM WHY YOU KNOW,
00:41:53WHY SHOULD JUDGE KAPLAN NOT
00:41:55ORDER THIS EXHUMATION?
00:41:57AND WE HAD HEARD ALREADY ABOUT NO ONE SURE QUITE WHERE HE IS.
00:42:01AND ALL THESE PROBLEMS WITH HOW
00:42:02THEY'RE GOING TO DO THE PROCESS
00:42:06STAR'S TURN. THAT GOT MY QUESTION. LIKE ANY GOOD WITNESS, AND THEN
00:42:09TURNED TO THE JUDGE AND SAID,
00:42:12JUDGE KAPLAN, IF YOU ORDER THIS
00:42:15EXHUMATION, YOU WILL BE ORDERING
00:42:17AN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIG.
00:42:21AND THAT ALSO, RICHARD, BECAUSE
00:42:23YOU'LL BE DIGGING UP BODIES ALL AROUND.
00:42:27AND THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT
00:42:29YOU WANT TO SEE BECAUSE WE'LL GET TO THIS.
00:42:33BUT IN THE LAW IS NOT JUST HAVING A REASON FOR AN
00:42:36EXHUMATION, BUT IT'S ALSO YOU'RE
00:42:39ASKING THE CEMETERY TO VIOLATE
00:42:43ITS PROMISE TO THE FAMILY.
00:42:45IN 1869, THEY GAVE QUIET
00:42:47SEPULCHER PROTECTION TO THIS
00:42:52DECEASED BODY. AND THAT'S AN OATH THAT BILL
00:42:55TRIMBLE, THE GUY WHO GAVE ME THE
00:42:58CASE AND HE'S A WITNESS, YOU'LL SEE.
00:43:00AND LATER, THAT'S WHAT MOTIVATED HIM. I MADE A PROMISE.
00:43:04OUR CEMETERY MADE A PROMISE TO MARY AND BOOTH. AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO BREAK IT,
00:43:09ESPECIALLY FOR THIS BAD HISTORY.
00:43:12OKAY, SO LET'S KEEP MOVING THEN. STEVE MILLER.
00:43:17OH, I SEE. YEAH. NO, I WENT TOO QUICK.
00:43:21OH, I KNOW WHAT? I HAVE MY HAND ON THE PAD AND
00:43:24THAT'S WHAT'S MESSING THINGS UP.
00:43:33OKAY. SOMETHING'S MESSED UP HERE.
00:43:35WELL, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GO AHEAD.
00:43:38I CAN JUST GET OUT AND POP IT UP AGAIN. WELL, LET ME JUST. GO AHEAD.
00:43:41SO, GUS RUSSO, SEEN HERE IS
00:43:45THERE THEY ARE. HE HAS AN EXPERT ON THE KENNEDY
00:43:51ASSASSINATION. SO HE TALKED ABOUT THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION.
00:43:54AND I ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT
00:43:56OSWALD WAS EXHUMED.
00:43:59STEVE MILLER, HE MADE ITS LIFE
00:44:03WORK. HE'S A HISTORIAN. HE'S NOT A PROFESSOR TO GET THE
00:44:08INFORMATION FROM EVERY SOLDIER, EVERY DETECTIVE, EVERY GARRETT
00:44:10FAMILY MEMBER WHO WAS THERE AT
00:44:12THE BOOTH FARM WHEN BOOTH WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BARN AND
00:44:16KILLED. AND HE WENT TO THERE. HE HAS LETTERS THAT WERE WRITTEN
00:44:20FROM THE SOLDIERS TO THEIR BACK HOME TO THEIR WIVES AND
00:44:24FAMILIES. HE HAS A DOSSIER ON EVERYONE,
00:44:27AND HE TESTIFIED, EVERYONE AT
00:44:29THE GARRETT FARM KNEW THAT THEY HAD JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:44:32THEY HAD PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIM.
00:44:34HE HAD HIS TATTOO AND THERE WERE SEVERAL PEOPLE THAT IN THE
00:44:38ESCAPE THEORY WORLD ESCAPED JUSTICE.
00:44:41HE SAID THE PEOPLE THEY RELY ON
00:44:43WERE NOT THERE AT THE GARRETT
00:44:46FARM, JANE BAKER, A MEMBER OF THIS CLUB, TESTIFIED FOR THE
00:44:51PETITIONERS. SHE'S A HISTORIAN, A VERY GOOD ONE.
00:44:54WELL, RECOGNIZE HE'S WRITTEN A COUPLE OF BOOKS.
00:44:57I JUST SAW HER TWO DAYS AGO, AND
00:44:59HER TESTIMONY WAS BASICALLY
00:45:02LIKE, LOOK, I BELIEVE JOHN
00:45:04WILKES BOOTH DID NOT ESCAPE.
00:45:06I THINK HE'S IN GREENMOUNT CEMETERY.
00:45:09BUT SINCE THESE PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE A LOOK, I'M ALL FOR IT.
00:45:15AND, YOU KNOW, I RESPECTED THAT.
00:45:17BUT I COULDN'T ABIDE BY IT.
00:45:22OKAY. OKAY. HERE WE GO. NOW I'M GOING TO GET MY ORDER
00:45:26CORRECT. SO WILLIAM HANSON WAS A HISTORY
00:45:30EXPERT. HE WAS THE THE DEAN OF OUR EXPERTS.
00:45:33HE WAS A PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT
00:45:35SAN DIEGO STATE UNIVERSITY.
00:45:37HE AND HE TESTIFIED THAT HE LOOKED AT THE BASE BOOK AS A BOOK OF FICTION.
00:45:41AND HE SAID BASE BOOK IS BAD
00:45:45HISTORY. AND THE PROBLEM WITH BAD HISTORY IS IT CROWDS OUT THE GOOD
00:45:50HISTORY. ALL AWAKE TESTIFIED FOR ALMOST
00:45:52AN ENTIRE DAY.
00:45:54I WON'T GO INTO THE DETAILS.
00:45:57IT'S IN THE BOOK, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS HE DID, HE TRIED TO MOVE
00:46:01AWAY FROM THE BATES BOOK, SAYING
00:46:03THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF OTHER REASONS TO JUSTIFY AN
00:46:07EXPLANATION.
00:46:09OTHER THAN THE BATES BOOK STORY,
00:46:11AND THAT WAS BECAUSE THE BATES BOOK WAS BEING TRASHED, IF YOU
00:46:15WILL, BY OUR EXPERT WITNESSES SAYING IT WAS UNWORTHY AND
00:46:20UNDERLIE A BOOK, ETC. SO WHAT HE DID, HE SAID, LET'S
00:46:23LOOK AT THESE OTHER THINGS. AND THEN AT THE END HE SAID, BUT
00:46:26IF I COULD GET THEM MUMMY, THE
00:46:29MUMMY WOULD PROVE OR DISPROVE
00:46:32THAT JOHN WILKES BOOTH ESCAPED JUSTICE.
00:46:36THE PROBLEM. SO HE REALLY BROUGHT THE ESCAPE
00:46:38THEORY BACK INTO THE PICTURE IN
00:46:40THE BATES BOOK BECAUSE IF YOU GOT THE MUMMY, THE MUMMY AS
00:46:44DAVID E GEORGE AND DAVID HE GEORGE JOHN ST HELEN AND JOHN
00:46:47SAINT HELEN IS JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
00:46:49SO HE STILL RELYING ON THE STORY
00:46:55THAT BOOTH ESCAPED AS BATES
00:46:58WROTE HERE'S BILL TREMBLE HE'S THE GUY THAT GAVE ME THE CASE.
00:47:02HE WAS OF COUNSEL AT SAM SORBO AND IN SAM'S WHERE I WAS A FINE
00:47:05LAW FIRM.
00:47:07I LEFT IT THE FOLLOWING YEAR IN
00:47:101995 AND SET UP MY OWN FIRM WITH DAVID WILLIAMS.
00:47:13BUT HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE
00:47:16BOARD OF PROPRIETORS AGREEMENT OF CEMETERY. HE'S THE ONE WHO ASKED ME TO
00:47:20HANDLE THE CASE, AND HE WAS REALLY KIND OF CO COUNSEL AND
00:47:24THE CLIENT ALL THE SAME TIME.
00:47:28MICHAEL KAUFMAN, ANOTHER ONE OF OUR EXPERTS, HE WROTE A REALLY
00:47:30GOOD BOOK CALLED AMERICAN BRUTUS. HE MAY HAVE EVEN SPOKEN HERE.
00:47:37HE'S ONE OF THE BEST SOURCES OF KNOWLEDGE ON BOOTH AND THE
00:47:41ASSASSINATION. AND THEN TERRY OFFERED, WHO'S A
00:47:43MEMBER OR SPOKE TO THIS CLUB, HE'S WRITTEN A COUPLE OF BOOKS.
00:47:47HE WAS, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, DIVIDED
00:47:51UP EACH EXPERT HAD A DIFFERENT TIME.
00:47:54TERRY OFTEN HAD THAT LAST THIRD.
00:47:57BUT TERRY OFFERED IT ONE THING
00:47:59THAT MUSIC TO THE EARS OF A
00:48:03TRIAL LAWYER AT THE END OF HIS TESTIMONY, JUDGE KAPLAN WAS
00:48:07ASKING QUESTIONS TO HIM, AND
00:48:09TERRY WAS ASKING THEM, AND THOSE
00:48:11TWO WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION
00:48:14WITHOUT REGARD TO ANYONE ELSE. I MEAN, THEY HAD CONNECTED.
00:48:18AND JUDGE KAPLAN SAID IF I
00:48:20IMPOSE THE CRIMINAL STANDARD,
00:48:22THE HIGHEST STANDARD, WE'RE GOING TO SAY IS THAT BEYOND A
00:48:26REASONABLE DOUBT, WHAT WOULD YOU
00:48:28SAY AS TO WHETHER JOHN WILKES BOOTH IS BURIED IN FREMONT
00:48:32CEMETERY AND OFFERED SAID ON THE
00:48:34RECORD, OF COURSE, YOUR HONOR, THERE'S NO DOUBT HE'S THERE EVEN
00:48:40APPLYING THAT STANDARD. SO THAT WAS A BEAUTIFUL THING TO
00:48:44WATCH, THOUGH.
00:48:44OUR CLEANUP HITTER WAS MR. HALL,
00:48:48AND HE HELPED US SO MUCH. AND HE WAS ONE OF THOSE NON
00:48:52SCHOLAR GUYS WHO KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION.
00:48:55I SHOULD POINT OUT.
00:48:57I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT HANSON SAID IT'S A WORK OF FICTION,
00:49:01PRETTY CLOSE TO A LIE OR NOT TRUE.
00:49:04MICHAEL COFFMAN SAID THERE'S FRAUD IN THIS BOOK. IT'S A FRAUD.
00:49:07IT'S A DELIBERATE LIE. AND THIS MAN HERE, JAMES OLD
00:49:13HALL, SAID IT WAS A FRAUD AS WELL AND GAVE EXAMPLES.
00:49:17OKAY. THE DECISION, JUDGE KAPLAN
00:49:20DENIED THE MOTION, THE PETITION
00:49:24FOR THE EXHUMATION, AND THEN A YEAR LATER THEY APPEALED.
00:49:27AND A YEAR LATER THEY GOT A DECISION AFFIRMING JUDGE KAPLAN,
00:49:30SAYING HE WAS CORRECT AND NOT
00:49:32ORDERING AN EXCLAMATION.
00:49:35AND BOTH BOTH OF THESE OPINIONS ARE IN MY BOOK.
00:49:38SO WE'RE GETTING TO THE END. THANK HEAVENS.
00:49:41PART FIVE A LITTLE COMMENTARY
00:49:44FRAUD IN THE BOOK. I SAID.
00:49:46THE WITNESSES TESTIFIED THEY GAVE EXAMPLES.
00:49:50HE SAYS HE BROKE HIS RIGHT LEG. HE DIDN'T KNOW OF THE LARGER
00:49:54ASSASSINATION PLOT. HE SAID, I DIDN'T KNOW ANYBODY
00:49:56ELSE IS GOING TO GET KILLED. HE SAYS HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT LEE
00:49:59HAD SURRENDERED UNTIL APRIL 14TH.
00:50:02HE WAS DOWN IN SOUTHERN MARYLAND SEARCHING ESCAPE ROOFS.
00:50:06I CAN'T BELIEVE NO ONE COULD BELIEVE THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
00:50:09IT WAS APRIL 9TH WHEN LEE HAD
00:50:12SURRENDERED AND ANOTHER POINT
00:50:16HERE IN THE BOOK, ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE IS THE LOST CAUSE NARRATIVE.
00:50:19WHEN I FIRST WROTE THE BOOK
00:50:21BEFORE 1220, I SAID IT AROUND. IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE TRIAL.
00:50:25REJECTED, REJECTED.
00:50:27AND THEN GEORGE FLOYD WAS KILLED IN MINNEAPOLIS.
00:50:31I BEGAN TO SEE STORIES ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY, SEE THE LOST
00:50:35CAUSE, AND IT FILTERED IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS. I SAID, WELL, WHAT ABOUT THIS
00:50:39BATES BOOK WRITTEN IN 1907? KIND OF THE HEYDAY OF THE LOST
00:50:43CAUSE? I WENT BACK AND READ THE BOOK
00:50:45AGAIN WITH THE LOST CAUSE IN MIND.
00:50:48THE BOOK IS DRIPPING WITH THE LOST CAUSES.
00:50:51WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?
00:50:53BATES ROMANTICIZE IS BOOTH IS OF
00:50:56GENTLE BREEDING, IS UNALLOYED
00:50:58WITH CRIME, A GENTLE AND
00:51:01RESPECTFUL, REFINED MIND. SO ONE OF THE THINGS.
00:51:05BATES WAS TRYING TO DO WAS BRING
00:51:07JOHN WILKES BOOTH INTO THE LOS
00:51:09CAUSED TO GIVE JOHN WILKES BOOTH
00:51:12THE MANTLE OF THE ROMANTIC SIZED
00:51:14GOOD GUY THAT MAYBE MADE A
00:51:16MISTAKE, OR MAYBE HE DIDN'T.
00:51:21SO THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL, OF
00:51:24COURSE HE WROTE IT FOR MONEY AND
00:51:28HE HE HAD TRIED. BATES HAD TRIED TO GET THE
00:51:30REWARD MONEY IN 1990, 1898.
00:51:32HE THOUGHT THE 100,000 HADN'T BEEN DISPERSED, SO HE WROTE TO
00:51:36THE WAR DEPARTMENT ASKING FOR IT. HE SAYS, IF I HAVE INFORMATION
00:51:40ABOUT WHERE JOHN WILKES BOOTH IS, DO I GET THE MONEY?
00:51:42AND HE SAID, NO, THE MONEY'S ALREADY BEEN GIVEN OUT.
00:51:45HE WANTED MONEY. AGAIN, IT'S IN THE BOOK.
00:51:47I DON'T.
00:51:51HAVE TIME TO GO INTO IT. HE GOT PRESTIGE AND FAME. HE WAS KNOWN AS A LAWYER WHO WROTE THIS BOOK.
00:51:55HE WAS NOT KNOWN AS A LAWYER WHO
00:51:58WAS SOMEONE WHO MADE AN IMPACT ON THE LAW OR HELPED A LOT OF
00:52:01CLIENTS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
00:52:03WHAT ABOUT DNA TODAY? YOU CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE TODAY
00:52:09YOU COULDN'T DO IT BACK THEN, BUT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IT TODAY BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED
00:52:12THIS MATTER. LINEAL STRAIN TODAY THEY TAKE
00:52:15THE HUMAN GENOME OF TWO PERSON WHO YOU WANT TO IDENTIFY SOMEONE
00:52:19ELSE AND YOU SEE HOW MANY MARKERS LINE UP.
00:52:22AND IF IT'S 92%, 93, THEY'LL SAY
00:52:26PROBABLY RELATED. BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT BACK THEN.
00:52:29SO THIS IS ABOUT A CONSPIRACY THEORY.
00:52:32I JUST WANT TO KIND OF CONCLUDE WITH SOMETHING ABOUT CONSPIRACY
00:52:36THEORIES. YOU KNOW, THEY CAUSE US TO DISTRUST OUR HISTORY,
00:52:40CONSPIRACY, THINKING CAN CAUSE
00:52:45CYNICISM. RATHER THAN OPTIMISM.
00:52:48IT CAN CAUSE RESENTMENT RATHER
00:52:52THAN PATRIOTISM. BY PATRIOTISM, TO ME IS A NON
00:52:58GENDER SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTE THAT
00:53:00MEANS LOVE OF COUNTRY DOESN'T MEAN THERE ARE NO DISAGREEMENT, DOES IT?
00:53:04DOES MEAN WE TRY TO WORK THEM OUT THROUGH COMPROMISE.
00:53:06AND THE RULE OF LAW.
00:53:08THE BOOTH ESCAPE JUSTICE
00:53:11CONSPIRACY STORY HAS BEEN TESTED
00:53:13BY SCHOLARS AND HISTORIANS AND
00:53:17IN A COURT USING THE RULE OF
00:53:20LAW, IT'S BEEN REJECTED BY BOTH.
00:53:24THIS STORY STILL AROUND. GO TO YOUTUBE.
00:53:27YOU CAN FIND STORIES STILL,
00:53:32STILL SO I THINK I'VE COVERED THAT.
00:53:36THE CONCLUSION AND THE REASON I
00:53:38WROTE THE BOOK, THE 1995 TRIAL,
00:53:42THERE'S NO MONEY AND NOT MANY
00:53:46PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THE TRIAL. THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE
00:53:50OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT HE
00:53:50DID NOT ESCAPE THE REAL HISTORY.
00:53:54HE WAS CAPTURED, SHOT AND DIED
00:53:57ON APRIL 26TH AT GUARD FOR
00:53:59THERE'S BOOKS BACK THERE IF YOU WANT ONE. REASONABLE PRICE.
00:54:04THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
00:54:13Q&A.
00:54:17SO I HAVE A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS
00:54:19I WANTED, SO I'M GOING TO READ
00:54:23ONE GO OVER ONE QUESTION.
00:54:25I'LL OPEN UP THE FLOOR EITHER FRANK OR MYSELF.
00:54:28I'LL REPEAT THE QUESTION AND WE'LL MOVE ON FROM THERE.
00:54:32NOW, WE HAVE MAYBE ABOUT 20
00:54:34MINUTES, SO IT TURNS OUT THAT I
00:54:38KNOW TWO OF THE WITNESSES.
00:54:40ONE IS JEAN BAKER AND THE OTHER IS TERRY ALFORD.
00:54:44THIS MORNING I HEARD FROM JEAN
00:54:46WHO SAT ME IN RESPONSE TO WHAT I HAD SENT HER.
00:54:52I HAVE A COPY OF FRANK KAUFMAN'S BOOK, IF THE ISSUE OF WHY I
00:54:57PARTICIPATE HAD IT COMES UP. I DID SO IN PART BECAUSE SMART
00:55:00SAY WHAT'S GOING ON TO BETTER
00:55:03THINGS ASKED ME TO BECAUSE IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE GREENMOUNT
00:55:08CEMETERY LOCATION OF THE BOOTH
00:55:10GRAVE WAS PROBLEMATICAL.
00:55:12AND BECAUSE I THOUGHT EXPERT OR
00:55:15NOT, THAT GIVEN THE 1907 BOOK,
00:55:17THE MATTER MERITED FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
00:55:21THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT BOOTH
00:55:23ISN'T BURIED IN THE CEMETERY.
00:55:25THE REMAINS ARE JUST NOT WHERE
00:55:27THE CEMETERY SAYS.
00:55:29I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE CEMETERY
00:55:32BOARD, TRIMBLE, ETC. WAS RUNNING SCARED.
00:55:35IF BOOTH WASN'T WHERE THEY SAID
00:55:38A HOST OF EXHUMATION ORDERS WOULD FOLLOW.
00:55:41I HOPE THIS WILL BE THE END OF MUCH ADO ABOUT LITTLE.
00:55:45WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMMENT?
00:55:49YES, I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT. SO I. I MAY HAVE MENTIONED THAT I SAW
00:55:51JEAN BAKER ON WEDNESDAY, AND SHE WAS ESPECIALLY NICE TO ME.
00:55:57SHE'S ALWAYS BEEN NICE. BUT I WILL TELL A STORY THAT I
00:55:59TOLD BEFORE TO A FEW OF YOU.
00:56:03SO I JOINED A CLUB IN BALTIMORE. THERE'S A WEDNESDAY LUNCH CLUB
00:56:08EVERY OTHER WEEK AND SHE WAS A MEMBER. AND WHEN MY SPONSORS SHOW UP
00:56:12WITH ME AND WE'RE MINGLING BEFORE PEOPLE SIT DOWN, I SAID
00:56:15TO DENNIS, HEY, I KNOW THAT LADY
00:56:17OVER THERE, JEAN BAKER, LET'S GO OVER AND TALK TO HER.
00:56:21SO JEAN WAS TALKING TO SOMEONE ELSE AND I STOOD THERE PATIENTLY
00:56:23FOR ABOUT 30S, AND THEN THAT
00:56:26FINISHED AND SHE TURNED TO ME AND I SAID, HELLO, DR. BAKER,
00:56:30I'M FRANK GORMAN FROM THE TRIAL
00:56:34EXHUMATION TRIAL. AND SHE SAID, OH, YES, YOU'RE
00:56:36THE ONE WHO INSULTED ME.
00:56:40SO WE GOT OVER THAT. WE'RE FAST FRIENDS. SHE GREETED ME WARMLY.
00:56:42BUT HERE'S MY COMMENT ON WHAT
00:56:44PROFESSOR BAKER HAS WRITTEN.
00:56:46IT IS AN EXCELLENT LEGAL
00:56:49ARGUMENT, AN EXCELLENT LEGAL ARGUMENT, BUT IT'S THERE'S NO
00:56:53HISTORY BACK THERE. THERE'S NO HISTORY.
00:56:58RELYING ON THE 1907 BOOK FOR ANYTHING IS A MISTAKE.
00:57:01IT'S A FRAUD. IT'S UNRELIABLE.
00:57:04AND ALSO, HER TESTIMONY WAS, I
00:57:07THINK JOHN WILKES BOOTH IS
00:57:09BURIED IN GREENMOUNT CEMETERY.
00:57:12BUT I THINK WE SHOULD DIG THEM OUT ANYWAY, JUST TO BE SURE
00:57:16THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR A CEMETERY PRESIDENT OR A CEMETERY
00:57:20BOARD TO JUST RUN RIGHT OVER THE
00:57:24OBLIGATION. SO THE CEMETERY HAS TO RESPECT THE DECEASED.
00:57:27AND THE MARYLAND LAW IS THE SAME.
00:57:29YOU JUST CAN'T GO DIGGING PEOPLE UP.
00:57:33AND I'M STILL FRIENDS. PROFESSIONAL FRIENDS WITH MARK
00:57:37ZAID. I DON'T SEE HIM OFTEN, BUT I DID
00:57:39SEE HIM ABOUT A YEAR AGO WHEN I SAID, HERE'S THE BOOK I DIDN'T
00:57:43HAVE THE BOOK THEN, BUT I HAD
00:57:44THE TITLE AND I WE WERE TALKING
00:57:49AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S EVEN HE I
00:57:53THINK. BUT HE CAN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF,
00:57:55RECOGNIZE AS IS THE CASE AND AND
00:57:58WHAT HAPPENED BUT THE EVIDENCE
00:58:00WAS OVERWHELMING AND I DON'T I
00:58:04THINK WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO PROFESSOR BAKER, I THINK SHE SIGHED.
00:58:07I SAW ONLY ONE PART AND EVEN A PART OF THE ONE SHE SAW, BUT SHE
00:58:11DIDN'T CONSIDER THE LAW
00:58:16WHATSOEVER. SO I HAVE A COMMENT THEN ONE
00:58:20OTHER QUESTION AND THEN I WILL OPEN IT UP.
00:58:23THE COMMENT WAS YOU SAID THAT
00:58:27SHE SAID THAT SHE THOUGHT YOU HAD INSULTED HER.
00:58:31SHE HAD TOLD ME THAT SHE THOUGHT THAT.
00:58:33SO IN THE BOOK, I'M FRANK SAYS,
00:58:39AS AN ATTORNEY, HE HAD TO OBJECTIVES.
00:58:42AND IN TALKING TO THE WITNESSES
00:58:47ONE ARE YOU REALLY THE EXPERT
00:58:49THAT YOU ARE PURPORTED TO BE AND
00:58:54TO ARE YOU AN EXPERT ON, YOU
00:58:56KNOW, THE ASSASSINATION, THE
00:58:59GARRETT FARM EPISODE, ANY OF THE
00:59:02BURIALS AND SO THE FACT THAT
00:59:10FRANK. DID NOT ACCEPT AT FACE VALUE THE
00:59:14SUPERB CREDENTIALS OF.
00:59:20THIS DR. BAKER, SHE THOUGHT HAD SHE BEEN A MAN, YOU WOULD NEVER
00:59:23HAVE THOUGHT TO ASK THOSE QUESTIONS.
00:59:28SO THE THE ONE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS I'M PUZZLED IN THE
00:59:32BOOK ON PAGE 80, THERE'S A
00:59:35WONDERFUL POLITICAL CARTOON. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE CARTOON
00:59:39AND INDICATE WHERE THAT FITS INTO THE THESIS OF YOUR BOOK?
00:59:45OKAY. I'M GOING TO TAKE THE LAST ONE FIRST BECAUSE IT'S EASY.
00:59:49IT'S A FREDERICKSBURG NEWSPAPER HERE.
00:59:52AND SOMETIME AROUND THE TIME OF
00:59:54THE TRIAL IN 1995, THEY HAD A CARTOON. IT'S IN THE BOOK.
00:59:59BUT JUST IT'S IT'S THEY'RE DIGGING.
01:00:01THEY'RE DIGGING THE GRAVE FOR
01:00:07SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, OPENING THE GRAVE OR SOMETHING. AND THEY SAY MAYBE IF WE KEEP
01:00:11DIGGING, WE'LL FIND JOHN WILKES BOOTH. SO I'M SURE IT WAS FUNNY AT THE TIME.
01:00:15AND WHEN YOU READ IT, SO I PUT IT IN THERE BECAUSE IT WAS PART
01:00:18OF THE CONTEMPORARY LANDSCAPE.
01:00:23OKAY, SO JUST ONE RETORT ON PROFESSOR BAKER.
01:00:26SO I AS I ALREADY SAID, HAVE A
01:00:28NON GENDER VIEW OF HISTORY, OKAY?
01:00:30I MEAN, I'VE, I KNOW ABOUT JOAN
01:00:34OF ARC AND WHO THE MAN WHO'S THE WOMEN, ALL THAT.
01:00:36BUT I DON'T USE GENDER TO TREAT ANYONE.
01:00:40SO I ASSURE YOU I WOULD HAVE
01:00:43DONE THE SAME THING TO A MAN. NOW, LET ME TELL YOU WHAT I WAS
01:00:46FACED WITH AND THEN I'LL COMPLETE MY ANSWER ANY TRIAL AND
01:00:50MOST EVERY TRIAL, I HAD HAD AN
01:00:53EXPERT WITNESS OR TWO.
01:00:54THEY SHOW UP WITH IMPECCABLE
01:01:00CREDENTIALS AND RESUMES.
01:01:02I CANNOT CONVINCE A JUDGE THAT
01:01:04SOMEBODY WITH THE DEGREE FROM
01:01:06CORNELL BERKELEY AND JOHNS
01:01:09HOPKINS IS NOT QUALIFIED.
01:01:11I'M NOT GOING TO WIN ON THAT.
01:01:13I CAN'T I CAN'T GET ANYWHERE ON THAT. BUT WHAT I CAN DO IS RECOGNIZE
01:01:17AND ADMIT AND NOT ADMIT, BUT LET
01:01:19THE COURT KNOW THAT I AM IN AWE OF THIS EXPERT.
01:01:23BUT I DO QUESTION IF THIS EXPERT
01:01:25KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT WHETHER WHAT
01:01:28THE SALINITY IS AND WHAT THE
01:01:30ACIDITY IS IN A GRAVE OR WHETHER
01:01:34OR NOT. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DR.
01:01:38STARR'S AND HIS 12 PRINCIPLES OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO?
01:01:41A PROPER EXHUMATION?
01:01:44LET'S DOES SHE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PHOTOS?
01:01:48SUPERIMPOSE IZATION, WHICH THEY WANTED TO USE? AND I SHOULD MENTION IT WAS
01:01:52TESTIFIED EVEN BY SLEZAK PHOTO
01:01:57SUPERIMPOSITION OFTEN IS NOT ADMISSIBLE IN FEDERAL COURT AND
01:02:00A CRIMINAL CASE.
01:02:03SO I RESPECT JUDGE PROFESSOR
01:02:08BAKER, BUT I WAS DOING MY JOB.
01:02:11AND MY JOB WAS NOT TO SAY
01:02:13PROFESSOR BAKER ISN'T A TERRIFIC
01:02:16AUTHOR AND STERLING ACADEMIC IN
01:02:18THE HISTORY OF THE CIVIL WAR,
01:02:20BUT I HAD TO DO SOMETHING AND I
01:02:23TRIED TO GET DOWN TO THE NITTY
01:02:25GRITTY ISSUES AND SHOW THE JUDGE
01:02:27THAT SHE'S NOT QUALIFIED THERE. NOW, THE BOTTOM LINE IS, GUESS
01:02:31WHAT? THE JUDGE DIDN'T HE COULD DISAGREE WITH ME.
01:02:34JUDGE SAID, NO, SHE CAN TESTIFY,
01:02:36SIT DOWN AND IF YOU GOT A
01:02:39QUESTION, JUST ASK IT.
01:02:45SO ONE FOOTNOTE ABOUT THE POLITICAL CARTOON.
01:02:49SOMEHOW OR OTHER, JOHN WILKES BOOTH IS LABELED AND HE'S THE
01:02:52FELLOW DIGGING UP SOMETHING RELATING TO THE JOHN KENNEDY ASSASSINATION.
01:02:56YEAH. SO ARE THERE QUESTIONS HERE FROM THE AUDIENCE?
01:03:00AND I SEE ONE PERSON. YES, YES.
01:03:02THANK YOU SO MUCH. I WHENEVER I HEAR ABOUT THE LOST
01:03:08HUSBANDS.
01:03:10JUST ONE STORY IN 1963, SO MUCH
01:03:14I WAS JUST SAYING THAT HEARING
01:03:17ABOUT THE LOST CAUSE REMINDS ME
01:03:19OF GROWING UP IN CHATTANOOGA. ONE STORY IN 1963, IN THE PUBLIC
01:03:25SCHOOL R TEXTBOOK OF AMERICAN
01:03:29HISTORY HAD TWO CHAPTERS NOT ON THE CIVIL WAR, MIND YOU, ON THE
01:03:32WAR BETWEEN THE STATES.
01:03:34AND I VIVIDLY REMEMBER THE FIRST
01:03:36FULL COLOR ILLUSTRATION, AND IT
01:03:40WAS AFTER THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR AND THE EMANCIPATION OF THE
01:03:45SLAVES IN THE SOUTH AND THE MASTERS ON A HORSE LOOKING DOWN
01:03:48AT SLAVES WHO WERE WEEPING, TELLING THEM I'M SORRY, YOU'VE
01:03:51GOT TO LEAVE. IT'S IT'S NOT MY IDEA. THE NORTH IS MAKING YOU LEAVE.
01:03:55THEY WERE CLEARLY HAPPY DESPITE
01:03:57THAT SPIN THAT LOST CAUSE SPIN.
01:04:01OUR HISTORY TEACHER WHO WAS UP
01:04:04IN YEARS, REFUSED TO TEACH THOSE TWO CHAPTERS.
01:04:06SHE SAID THE MEMORIES WERE TOO PAINFUL.
01:04:09YOU KNOW, I GREW UP IN BATAVIA,
01:04:14ILLINOIS, 40 MILES TO THE WEST
01:04:14OF CHICAGO, AND I'M STILL AMAZED
01:04:18THAT WE LEARNED THE LOST CAUSE
01:04:21CIVIL WAR PERIOD.
01:04:23WHEN I WAS THERE IN SCHOOL.
01:04:25SO THERE'S A QUESTION THERE.
01:04:29SO YES, TO THE LOST CAUSE OF SO
01:04:35THE LOST CAUSE.
01:04:37I WAS PART OF BATES'S MOTIVE FOR
01:04:40WRITING THE BOOK AND IT'S KIND OF LONG LINES YOU MENTIONED.
01:04:44I WAS WONDERING WHAT HAPPENED TO SOUTHERN TEXTBOOKS AFTER HIS
01:04:48BOOK CAME OUT. SO I WENT TO THE HARVARD OF I
01:04:52FORGET THE NAME OF THE SCHOOL WITH THE SCHOOL OF EDUCATION.
01:04:56AND THEY HAVE ALL TEXTBOOKS, HUNDREDS OF OLD TEXTBOOKS.
01:04:59AND I GOT ABOUT 5 OR 10 FROM
01:05:031870 TO 1910. AND THEN I GOT, YOU KNOW, 5 OR
01:05:0810 FROM 1910 TO 19 20S AND 30S. AND I WANTED I WENT RIGHT TO THE
01:05:12INDEX WHERE DO THEY MENTION JOHN WILKES BOOTH?
01:05:16AND I WAS IN THE EARLY DAY. THERE WAS JUST WASN'T ANY
01:05:20FANFARE OR IT WAS BOOTH AND ACTOR. MAYBE ONCE THEY SAID HE WAS
01:05:23DERANGED, SOMETIME HE SAID HE WAS FAMOUS, BUT NOTHING BIG.
01:05:27WHEN YOU WENT TO THE PAGE AND
01:05:30AFTER 1910, THE BOOKS WERE THE
01:05:34SAME. JOHN WILKES BOOTH BOOKS WERE THE SAME.
01:05:37THERE WAS NO NO CHAPTER, NO
01:05:39SENTENCE EULOGIZING HIM,
01:05:41ROMANTICIZING HIM.
01:05:43SO AND THEN AFTER THAT, ONE LAST
01:05:45THING I FOUND THAT PROMPTED ME TO DIG A LITTLE DEEPER ON THE LOST CAUSE.
01:05:49THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY.
01:05:52HE AND MARGARET RUTHERFORD, WHO WAS A BIG DEAL IN THAT
01:05:57ORGANIZATION IN 1914 AFTER THE
01:05:58BATES BOOK CAME OUT, SAID,
01:06:02QUOTE, NO TRUE MAN OF THE SOUTH
01:06:04WOULD COMMIT THE HEINOUS CRIME
01:06:07THAT JOHN WILKES BOOTH DID.
01:06:11SO THE LOST CAUSE DID NOT EMBRACE JOHN WILKES BOOTH.
01:06:14IT EMBRACED A LOT OF OTHER THINGS.
01:06:16BUT HE WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR.
01:06:21HI, FRANK. IT'S JOHN. FACTUAL. IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN,
01:06:25CLASSMATE. YES. YEAH. THE JUDGE HAS HOSTED ME TO A
01:06:29DINNER HERE WITH MY PLEASURE. A I WONDER.
01:06:33I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS
01:06:38PROBLEM OF DEEP FAKES AND THE
01:06:42EVIDENCE COMMITTEES BEING CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT THAT.
01:06:44GIVEN YOUR EXPERI ENCE, WHAT
01:06:47FEARS DO YOU HAVE IF THAT KEEPS
01:06:51GOING WITH THE ABILITY TO CREATE
01:06:56HISTORY. OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH? OH GEE, THAT'S A THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
01:06:59I'M NO EXPERT ON THIS. I'LL JUST SAY I WAS TALKING TO
01:07:03DAN THIS MORNING ABOUT I AND
01:07:07SOMEBODY COMES UP WITH SOMETHING
01:07:10ABOUT A.I. AND IT'S WRONG. AND THE PERSON THAT ASKED FOR TO
01:07:13THE QUESTION RELIES ON IT AND
01:07:18THEY'RE WRONG. WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO BE SUING? JUST CHAT. IS THERE GOING TO BE ANY
01:07:21LIABILITY FOR THIS? ARE WE GOING TO TAKE PEOPLE OUT
01:07:24OF THE EQUATION SO NO ONE
01:07:26BECOMES RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING?
01:07:29IT'S A I I SO DEEP FAKE IS IS
01:07:32FRAUD AND MISREPRESENT ATION, RIGHT?
01:07:37MANUFAC SCREEN IMAGES AND ALL THAT BLOODY EASY TO DO IS SO
01:07:41EASY IT'S DANGEROUS.
01:07:42AND I KNOW I DON'T LIKE IT, BUT I HAVE NO IDEAS OF HOW TO STOP
01:07:46IT IN A FREE COUNTRY.
01:07:52SO ARE THERE OTHER QUESTIONS.
01:07:59QUESTION. THIS THIS WAS A JUDGE TRIAL,
01:08:03CORRECT? AND NOT A JURY TRIAL, CORRECT.
01:08:05SO SITTING HERE SORT OF IS A
01:08:08MEMBER OF A JURY LISTENING TO IT
01:08:10AND RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S PUT
01:08:14TOGETHER A VERY HIGH LEVEL.
01:08:16BUT YOU SHOWED A SLIDE UP THERE.
01:08:20OF THE GRAVE AND 1869, THE ONE
01:08:24WITH THE YES ON IT. AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE SLIDE,
01:08:27BUT I WAS TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.
01:08:31SO IN 18, 1869 WAS YOUR PICTURE,
01:08:371865, YOU HAD SAID THAT THE BODY WAS TURNED OVER TO THE FAMILY,
01:08:41TO THE BOOTH FAMILY, AND THAT IT
01:08:45WAS BROUGHT TO IT WAS BROUGHT TO
01:08:47BALTIMORE, BUT IT WAS PUT IN THE
01:08:49WEAVER HOLD THERE IN THAT
01:08:52CEMETERY BECAUSE THE BOOTH CEMETERY WAS ACROSS TOWN.
01:08:54IF I SAID 1865, I MUST TAKEN.
01:08:59IT WAS 18. IN 1865, THE BODY WAS BURIED IN
01:09:02A WASHINGTON ARSENAL RIGHT. IT WAS RELEASED IN 1869.
01:09:08OH, SO 1869. THEY BROUGHT IT TO BALTIMORE.
01:09:10OH, OH, I KNOW. YOU KNOW, THE RECORD WILL SAY I
01:09:14PROBABLY SAID IT RIGHT. I MAY HAVE SAID IT WRONG, BUT THE RIGHT DID IT.
01:09:17BUT WAIT, IT STAYED IN THE SHALLOW GRAVE FOR SO LONG AND
01:09:19THE WEAVER VAULT HOLDING HOLDING
01:09:23THERE WAS IN THE WEAVER HOLDING VAULT. YEAH, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID. RIGHT.
01:09:27SO JUST STAYED IN THE WEAVER
01:09:29HOLDING VAULT FOR THOSE YEARS. YOU OKAY?
01:09:33I'LL READ THE BOOK.
01:09:37THANK YOU. ARE THERE OTHER QUESTIONS?
01:09:40SO THE FIRST OF MY SLEW OF QUESTIONS.
01:09:44THIS COURT CASE WAS BROUGHT BY TWO INDIVIDUALS.
01:09:49CITY WAS ONE. IN YOUR BOOK, YOU SAID, OH, I
01:09:52DIDN'T BOTHER TO GO TO THE TRIAL BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS A SLAM DUNK.
01:09:56WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REAL
01:09:58REASON WHY ONLY ONE OF THE TWO
01:10:00INDIVIDUALS WHO WAS PUSHING THIS
01:10:02THEORY SHOWED UP FOR THE TRIAL,
01:10:08ARTHUR BEN ARTHUR VENTURI IS NOW DECEASED.
01:10:11I NEVER DID TALK TO HIM WHILE HE
01:10:13WAS LIVING, BUT I READ A LOT OF HIS STUFF.
01:10:15I HE DID RIGHT. HE LEFT AFTER THE SECOND DAY OF
01:10:20TRIAL. IT WAS A SURPRISE TO MARK ZAID THAT HE LEFT, THAT HE WASN'T
01:10:23THERE THE NEXT DAY, AND HE WROTE
01:10:25A VERY SELF-SERVE LETTER, WHICH
01:10:28WE HAVE TO THE JUDGE AS TO WHY HE LEFT.
01:10:31HE WROTE TO THE JUDGE, I LEFT BECAUSE I KNEW WE WERE GOING TO WIN.
01:10:35AND I REALLY THOUGHT I SHOULD GET BACK TO TENNESSEE AND THINGS
01:10:37WERE GOING SO WELL.
01:10:41WHY HE REALLY LEFT IS HE HAD READ THE TEA LEAVES HE DIDN'T
01:10:44LIKE WHERE THE CASE WAS GOING. AND THAT'S WHY HE LEFT.
01:10:48HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH IT. AND IN 2008, HE PUBLISHED ON
01:10:53YOUTUBE UP TO TWO HOUR SESSIONS WHERE HE EXPLAINS IN GREAT
01:10:57DETAIL THE TRUTH AND ACCURACY OF
01:10:59THE BOOTH ESCAPE STORY.
01:11:08NEARLY HALF OF YOUR BOOK IS AN
01:11:10APPENDIX WITH SUCH SMALL PRINT
01:11:15THAT ONE WOULD NEED A MAGNIFYING GLASS TO READ.
01:11:19BASICALLY, THE TWO IT MIGHT BUY
01:11:2211 PAGES THAT ARE ON EACH PAGE.
01:11:24WHY DID YOU DO THAT.
01:11:29WELL, I THINK THAT'S FAIR
01:11:32CRITICISM OF THE BOOK. I TELL YOU WHY I DID IT.
01:11:38I'M A LAWYER.
01:11:38I'VE FILED MANY APPELLATE BRIEF
01:11:42AND EVERY APPELLATE BRIEF I
01:11:44FILED HAD AN APPENDIX.
01:11:47AND I WAS MAKING AN ARGUMENT HERE.
01:11:51I HAVE A LOT OF HISTORY IN THE BOOK, BUT I HAVE A LOT OF MY OWN OPINIONS.
01:11:54I WAS MAKING AN ARGUMENT THAT
01:11:56THE BASE BOOK IS NOT RELIABLE.
01:12:00IT'S FRAUDULENT. IT'S MOTIVATED BY THE LOST
01:12:02CAUSE, ETC., ETC. AND WHEN I MAKE THAT ARGUMENT TO A PANEL OF
01:12:06JUDGES AND THEY SAY, WHERE IN
01:12:07THE RECORD IS THIS MR. GORMAN?
01:12:11SO THAT'S WHERE I COME FROM.
01:12:13SO I DECIDED I WAS GOING TO PUT IN THE APPENDIX AND I DID TRY TO
01:12:19ALERT PEOPLE THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE HARD TO READ. AND THEN I REALLY ONLY PUT IT IN
01:12:22THERE FOR PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT
01:12:24TO KNOW WHAT TERRY OFFERED, SAID
01:12:28TO JUDGE KAPLAN, REALLY WANT TO
01:12:30KNOW WHAT JEAN BAKER TESTIFIED TO.
01:12:34THAT'S NOT EVERYBODY. THAT'S VERY FEW PEOPLE, BUT
01:12:36HISTORIANS, LAWYERS, MAYBE SOME
01:12:39ANTHROPOLOGISTS OR MEDICAL PEOPLE SOMEDAY MIGHT WANT TO
01:12:42KNOW EXACTLY WHAT DID DOUG HUBER
01:12:45LACKER SAY?
01:12:47SO I PUT IT IN THERE.
01:12:50SO YOU MENTIONED EXHUMATIONS.
01:12:55COULD YOU KNOW, THREE, 14
01:12:59SENTENCES OR LESS. TALK ABOUT EXHUMATIONS IN
01:13:04AMERICAN HISTORY?
01:13:07BOY, I'M NOT REALLY QUALIFIED.
01:13:10I KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN OTHERS EXHUMED.
01:13:12OF COURSE, KENNEDY WAS EXHUMED. I THINK TAYLOR WAS ASSUMED.
01:13:18I'VE OFTEN THOUGHT I SHOULD MAKE A LIST OF THESE. I KNEW I'D BE ASKED SOMEDAY.
01:13:21THANK YOU, ROD, BUT I. BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED AND I
01:13:25HAVEN'T MADE THE LIST, SO MAYBE
01:13:27THERE'S A SUBJECT FOR ANOTHER BOOK THAT ONE OF YOU WANTS TO
01:13:31WRITE. SO LET'S SEE. I.
01:13:35I THINK THERE'S A 3 OR 4 PRESIDENTS THAT HAVE BEEN
01:13:38EXHUMED, BUT I'M NOT SURE OTHER THAN TYLER, I THINK.
01:13:43AND WHO IS THE GUY THAT SPOKE TO LONG WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON.
01:13:46MAYBE HIM AND THEN, OF COURSE,
01:13:49JOHN F, KENNEDY AND LINCOLN.
01:13:55WELL, IT IS NOW 2:00.
01:13:57ARE THERE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS
01:14:01IF NOT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, FRANK.
01:14:05AND SO.
01:22:52GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS DR. L.
01:22:56MICHAEL MCLEOD. I SERVE AS PROVOST HERE AT JOHNSON CO C