Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:01LAID BARE TO THIS COUNTRY.
00:00:02THERE WAS NO EXPLANATION.
00:00:06YOU COULDN'T EXCUSE IT.
00:00:08AND SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS WHEN
00:00:11THERE WERE NO MORE EXCUSES,
00:00:13REALLY, THE ENTIRE WORLD WENT INTO ACTION.
00:00:18ALL OVER THE WORLD, PEOPLE WERE MARCHING AND PUTTING FORWARD
00:00:21PROPOSALS AND PUTTING FORWARD CHANGES. AND SO WHEN THERE WAS CLARITY, I
00:00:25DO FEEL THAT THIS
00:00:26INTERSECTIONAL, MULTIRACIAL,
00:00:29FEMINIST, BELOVED COMMUNITY BE
00:00:31MANIFESTED ITSELF. AND I FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVE THAT
00:00:35THAT IS STILL VERY MUCH WITHIN OUR REACH AND VERY MUCH THE
00:00:38IMPERATIVE OF ALL OF THOSE OF US WHO WANT US TO BE A BETTER COUNTRY.
00:00:42I THINK THAT'S A PERFECT NOTE TO END ON.
00:00:44THANK YOU SO MUCH, STEVE.
00:00:56YOU WATCHING BOOK TV FOR A COMPLETE SCHEDULE, VISIT BOOK TV
00:00:59DOT ORG. YOU CAN ALSO FOLLOW ALONG BEHIND
00:01:03THE SCENES AT BOOK TV ON
00:01:04FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM AND YOUTUBE.
00:01:08WELCOME TO COLLECTED WORKS BOOKSTORE.
00:01:12WELCOME TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE HERE IN THE AUDIENCE.
00:01:17WELCOME TO OUR FRIENDS FROM C-SPAN AND WELCOME BACK DOWN
00:01:20FROM DENVER, GENTLEMEN, IT'S LOVELY TO HAVE YOU BACK IN THE
00:01:24STORE AND WELCOME TO OUR ZOOM AUDIENCE ALL OVER THE WORLD.
00:01:28WE ARE VERY FORTUNATE IN THAT WE HAVE HAD ZOOMERS FROM EVERY
00:01:33COUNTRY AND ON THIS PLANET AND
00:01:35YOUR QUESTIONS, BECAUSE THE AUTHOR HAS BEEN KIND ENOUGH TO
00:01:39SAY THAT THEY WILL TAKE HE WILL
00:01:40TAKE QUESTIONS, CAN BE RELAYED VIA YOUR ZOOM.
00:01:45SO WELCOME TO SANTA FE.
00:01:47WELCOME TO SANTA FE, EVERYBODY.
00:01:49AND IN PARTICULAR, WELCOME TO
00:01:51ANDREW FERGUSON FOR THE PRESENT
00:01:53NATION OF HIS NEW BOOK, WHICH
00:01:56HAS AN OMINOUS TITLE.
00:01:58YOUR DATA WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.
00:02:02BUT I HAVE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF CHATTING WITH ANDREW FERGUSON
00:02:05FOR A FEW MINUTES.
00:02:06HE'S NOT A SCARY PERSON.
00:02:10I ALSO AM WELCOMING VERY WARMLY
00:02:14BACK TO COLLECTED WORKS AND OLD
00:02:16FRIEND CHRIS MOORE, WHO IS GOING TO INTRODUCE ANDREW A LITTLE
00:02:20MORE FULLY AND THEN CONDUCT THE EVENING.
00:02:24SO IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION HERE
00:02:26IN THE AUDIENCE, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND SO THAT MY COLLEAGUE
00:02:30JOE CAN BRING YOU THE MICHAEL I'M USING AND EVERYBODY HERE AND
00:02:34AROUND THE WORLD CAN HEAR THE QUESTION AS WELL AS THE ANSWER.
00:02:38AND THEN AFTERWARDS, ANDREW IS
00:02:41GOING TO BE SIGNING HIS BOOK HERE AT THIS TABLE.
00:02:43MOST OF YOU KNOW, WE USE THE HONOR SYSTEM HERE AT COLLECTED
00:02:47WORKS. COME UP, TALK TO HIM, TALK TO
00:02:50CHRIS, GET YOUR BOOK SIGNED.
00:02:52AND THEN WE'D BE VERY GRATEFUL IF YOU'D PAY FOR IT UPFRONT ON
00:02:56THE WAY OUT, BECAUSE AS AN INDEPENDENT BOOKSTORE, WE DO
00:02:59NEED THE MONEY SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO BRING YOU
00:03:03PRESENTATIONS SUCH AS TONIGHT. AND WE THANK YOU FOR THAT.
00:03:06WE WILL BE COLLECT DOING YOUR
00:03:09NAME FOR INSCRIBED BOOKS BECAUSE
00:03:11WE DON'T GO ON TO GET THE NAME WRONG.
00:03:13SO IF EITHER JOE OR CECILLE OR I
00:03:17ARE ASKING YOU FOR YOUR NAME, BE
00:03:19PATIENT WITH US AND LET US GET THE SPELLING DOWN.
00:03:23THANK YOU. CHRIS MOORE.
00:03:26CHRIS MOORE IS LISTED AS A
00:03:29COMPUTER SCIENCE HOST, A
00:03:32MATHEMATICIAN AND A PHYSICIST RESIDENT FACULTY AT THE SANTA FE
00:03:37INSTITUTE AND A FULL PROFESSOR AT UNM.
00:03:40I'M A GRADUATE OF NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY WITH A PH.D. FROM
00:03:45CORNELL. HE SERVED ON SANTA FE CITY
00:03:49COUNCIL FROM 1994 TO 2002.
00:03:52HE IS ALSO CREDITED, NOTED ON
00:03:56WIKIPEDIA AS FINDING THE THREE BODIES SOLUTION TO THE
00:04:00THREE-BODY PROBLEM. NOW, QUITE FRANKLY, I DIDN'T
00:04:02KNOW THERE WAS A THREE BODY PROBLEM, BUT I WAS RAISED MANY,
00:04:07MANY YEARS AGO WHEN WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE
00:04:10THREE-BODY PROBLEMS.
00:04:12SO HE IS THE MAN WHO IS CREDITED
00:04:15WITH FINDING ONE OF THE
00:04:17SOLUTIONS TO THAT TRICKY, TRICKY SUBJECT.
00:04:21MORE IMPORTANTLY FOR ME AT
00:04:24LEAST, CHRISTIAN, I BOTH SERVED
00:04:27ON A SMALL CITY COMMITTEE A
00:04:31COUPLE OF DECADES AGO.
00:04:33IN ADDITION TO HIS NUMEROUS
00:04:37WRITINGS AND AWARDS, HE HAS
00:04:39GIVEN FREELY OF HIS TIME TO
00:04:42SERVE ON MANY, MANY COMMITTEES
00:04:46LOCALLY AND WONDER AND GIVEN HIS
00:04:50TIME TO NUMEROUS LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS.
00:04:53HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT THEM MUCH,
00:04:55BUT HIS REACH SPREADS FAR, FAR
00:04:58BEYOND THE SANTA FE INSTITUTE.
00:05:01WHEN WE SERVED ON OUR LITTLE
00:05:03COMMITTEE, IT WAS AVIA AS TO ALL
00:05:06OF US EXCEPT CHRIS, THAT HE WAS
00:05:09DEFINITELY THE SMARTEST PERSON IN THE ROOM.
00:05:13HE WAS ALSO PROBABLY THE SMARTEST PERSON IN THE BUILDING,
00:05:17AND MAYBE AT THAT POINT HE WAS THE SMARTEST PERSON IN THE CITY.
00:05:21I STILL THINK HE IS PROBABLY THE
00:05:23SMARTEST PERSON IN THE CITY, BUT
00:05:25CHRIS DOES NOT SHOW THAT HE'S
00:05:29WONDERFUL AND ACCESSIBLE AND FUNNY AND FUN TO BE WITH.
00:05:34AND THAT IS THE MARK OF A REAL RENAISSANCE MAN.
00:05:38CHRIS WELCOME BACK TO SIT IN EFFECT, WHICH IS.
00:05:46THAT WAS LOVELY. DOROTHY I'LL TELL MY WIFE ALL OF
00:05:48THAT VERBATIM I SHOULD COME BACK
00:05:53HERE WHEN I'M AN AUTHOR SO IT IS MY GREAT PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE
00:05:57ANDREW FERGUSON. HE IS A LAW PROFESSOR AT GEORGE
00:06:01WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY AND PREVIOUS LEE, A PUBLIC DEFENDER.
00:06:04HE HAS WRITTEN MULTIPLE EXCELLENT BOOKS. I'VE ONLY READ ONE OF THEM, THIS
00:06:08ONE. AND I CAN TELL YOU IT IS REALLY FANTASTIC.
00:06:11HE HAS WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT JURY DUTY. HE'S WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT
00:06:15SUPREME COURT CASES FOR HIGH SCHOOLERS. HE'S WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE
00:06:18RISE OF MASS SURVEILLANCE. AND FINALLY, THIS BOOK, YOUR
00:06:21DATA WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. SO THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
00:06:24THANK YOU SO MUCH. I WANT TO BEGIN WITH THREE. THANK YOU.
00:06:28AS MYSELF. THE FIRST IS TWO COLLECTED WORKS.
00:06:31AND DOROTHY, THIS IS AN AMAZING SPACE.
00:06:35IT'S AMAZING BOOKSTORE. IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO SANTA FE,
00:06:37YOU SHOULD COME HERE AND DO IT TO THE NATIONAL AUDIENCE. THIS IS A WONDERFUL SPACE TO BE.
00:06:41SO THANK YOU FOR THE HONOR OF BEING THERE. THANK YOU, CHRIS, FOR INVITING
00:06:44ME HERE AND BEING ABLE TO SPEAK
00:06:47TO THE SANTA FE INSTITUTE. IT IS A GROUP OF REALLY
00:06:51BRILLIANT PEOPLE ALL IN A ROOM
00:06:53TOGETHER THAT IS ALSO WONDERFULLY AMAZING.
00:06:56AND THANKS TO YOU FOR SPENDING YOUR AFTERNOON, EVENING HERE
00:06:59WITH ME TALKING ABOUT THIS BOOK. TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES
00:07:02THAT I THINK AFFECTS ALL OF US. AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU
00:07:06TAKING THE TIME TO NOTE THAT WE ARE ON C SPAN.
00:07:09SO YOU ARE UNDER SURVEILLANCE AND YOUR DATA WILL BE USED
00:07:13AGAINST YOU IN THAT WAY. SO JUST BE WARNED.
00:07:15BUT THAT'S PART OF THE LESSONS OF THIS BOOK. SO I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU A
00:07:18BRIEF OVERVIEW, A TASTE ABOUT WHY YOU SHOULD EVENTUALLY
00:07:22SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL BOOKSTORE AND BUY THIS AND OTHER BOOKS AND I
00:07:25BEGIN WITH TWO STORIES. THE FIRST INVOLVES A YOUNG MAN NAMED MICHAEL, 17, WHO'S FROM
00:07:29NEW ORLEANS. THE YOUNG MAN WHO LIVES IN ONE
00:07:32OF THE POOR AREAS OF TOWN.
00:07:34AND HE WAS JUST WANDERING THE
00:07:36STREETS AS HE WAS THAT DAY IN A PUFFY JACKET.
00:07:39WE DIDN'T KNOW WAS WATCHING HIM
00:07:41WANDER WHERE A SERIES OF VIDEO
00:07:43CAMERAS IN NEW ORLEANS. NEW ORLEANS HAS A VERY EXTENSIVE
00:07:47VIDEO SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY CALL A VIRTUAL PATROL OF GOING
00:07:50FROM CAMERA TO CAMERA TO CAMERA TO SEE WHETHER ANYTHING WOULD BE
00:07:54SUSPICIOUS. AND POLICE SAW THIS YOUNG MAN IN
00:07:58A PUFFY JACKET. THEY THOUGHT THE PUFFINESS OF ALL INVOLVED A WEAPON.
00:08:01SO THEY REPORT IT TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TO GO CHECK THEM OUT.
00:08:05NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENED FOR TWO HOURS. AND POLICE EVENTUALLY CAME BACK
00:08:09TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SAW THE SAME YOUNG MAN TWO HOURS LATER
00:08:12IN A DIFFERENT JACKET, BUT STILL TRIED TO STOP HIM. THERE WAS A FOOT CHASE.
00:08:16THERE WAS A AN ARREST, A BEATING, A TASER, LOTS OF
00:08:20PROBLEMS. BUT HE WAS ARRESTED FOR HAVING A WEAPON, WHICH THEY DIDN'T
00:08:23ACTUALLY FIND ON HIM. BUT HE'S ARRESTED FOR HAVING A WEAPON.
00:08:26AND HE WAS HELD IN JAIL FOR
00:08:30ABOUT NINE MONTHS BASED ON THIS VIRTUAL PATROL, THIS VIDEO
00:08:34SYSTEM THAT WAS WATCHING MOST OF
00:08:36POOR NEW ORLEANS, BUT RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT JUST POOR NEW
00:08:40ORLEANS BOURBON STREET. IF YOU EVER BEEN TO BOURBON STREET, ONE OF THE MOST
00:08:43SURVEILLED AREAS IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS ACTUALLY A LITTLE
00:08:46FRIGHTENING IF YOU'VE EVER DONE SOMETHING FOOLISH ON BOURBON STREET, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT
00:08:49THE CAMERA SYSTEMS THAT THEY HAVE ROLLING AND WHAT THEY CAN WATCH AND ROLL BACK IN REAL
00:08:53TIME, IT IS REALLY QUITE INVASIVE.
00:08:55AND SO THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE'RE GOING BE TALKING ABOUT, IS HOW NEW SURVEILLANCE SYSTEMS,
00:08:59SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS AND VIDEO ANALYTICS ABILITY TO TAKE EACH
00:09:03OF THOSE OBJECTS AND IDENTIFY THEM AND TRACK THEM OVER TIME IS
00:09:07CHANGING POWER DYNAMICS IN AMERICA. THE SECOND INVOLVES A STORY FROM
00:09:10MY FAVORITE STORIES IN THE BOOK. IT INVOLVES A GENTLEMAN NAMED
00:09:14ROSS COMPTON, WHO HAD A BAD HEART. AND BECAUSE HE HAD A BAD HEART,
00:09:18HE WENT AND HE GOT A PACEMAKER. THAT WAS A SMART PACEMAKER. IT ACTUALLY KEPT TRACK OF HIS
00:09:22HEART DATA AND IT GAVE HIM INFORMATION ABOUT THE HEALTH OF HIS HEART.
00:09:25AND IT ALSO GAVE INFORMATION TO HIS DOCTOR WHO WAS TRACKING THE
00:09:29HEALTH OF HIS HEART. AND THAT WAS ALL WELL AND GOOD UNTIL DETECTIVES WENT TO THE
00:09:33DOCTOR'S OFFICE WITH A WARRANT TO OBTAIN HIS SMART HEART DATA
00:09:35TO BE USED AGAINST HIM IN A COURT OF LAW. NOW, THE DETECTIVES WERE DOING
00:09:39THIS FOR A REASON. THEY BELIEVED THAT MR. COMPTON WAS INVOLVED IN A INSURANCE
00:09:43SCAM, AN ARSON FRAUD, WHERE YOU BURN DOWN YOUR HOUSE, GET THE INSURANCE MONEY.
00:09:47AND SO THEY WERE INVESTIGATING THIS CASE, FIGURING THAT HIS HEART BEAT WOULD DISPROVE HIS
00:09:51STORY ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING DURING THE ARSON.
00:09:55AND IN SOME WAYS, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN CORRECT.
00:09:57HIS HEART BEAT WASN'T DOING WHAT
00:10:00HE CLAIMED THAT HE WAS DOING, AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE RUNNING AROUND LIKE RESCUING HIS
00:10:04PETS AND HIS HEART BEAT. DID NOT REVEAL THAT.
00:10:05BUT THE REALITY WAS HERE WAS HIS
00:10:09SMART DATA, HIS HEARTBEAT THAT
00:10:11WAS GOING TO BE USED AS EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM IN A COURT OF LAW.
00:10:14THE TEXAS DO ANYTHING WRONG? NOT NECESSARILY. THEY WERE FOLLOWING THEIR OWN
00:10:18INVESTIGATION AND THEIR NEED FOR FOR EVIDENCE.
00:10:22BUT I THINK WE CAN MIGHT ALL PAUSE ABOUT THE FACT THAT OUR
00:10:26SMART DATA COULD BE USED AGAINST US IN THIS WAY.
00:10:28AND SO THE BOOK IS ABOUT TELLING THESE STORIES.
00:10:32SO OUR STORIES OF SELF SURVEILLANCE ABOUT HOW WE HAVE
00:10:35BUILT A NEW WORLD AROUND US WITH SMART DATA THAT IS REVEALING
00:10:39WHAT WE DO. AND BY DEFINITE IN HOW WE'RE
00:10:42DOING IT, THAT CAN BE OBTAINED AS EVIDENCE. AND ALSO A FORM OF LIKE
00:10:46DEMOCRATIC SELF SURVEILLANCE, WHERE WE AS CITIZENS ARE INVESTING TAXPAYER MONEY IN
00:10:51BUILDING SENSOR SYSTEMS IN OUR CITIES, CAMERA SYSTEMS, AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READERS,
00:10:55ALL IN OUR SYSTEM IS TO BE ABLE TO SURVEIL OURSELVES, GIVING
00:10:58POWER TO THE POLICE.
00:11:00SO I SAT DOWN TO WRITE THIS BOOK. I'M A LAW PROFESSOR. I TEACH CRIMINAL LAW AND CRIME
00:11:04PROCEDURE AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY, AND I TEACH ABOUT
00:11:07HOW LAWS CHANGE IN FRONT OF TECHNOLOGIES.
00:11:10BUT I SAT DOWN TO WRITE THIS BOOK THINKING THAT IT WAS GOING
00:11:13TO BE HELPFUL FOR MY STUDENTS HERE TO BE PRACTICING IN COURTROOMS WHERE MOST OF THE
00:11:18EVIDENCE IN THE FUTURE WILL BE LIKE SELF CELL PHONE DATA OR
00:11:22FACIAL RECOGNITION AND HOW YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT THAT NEW CHARGE.
00:11:25AND I REALIZED I WASN'T WRITING A BOOK JUST FOR THOSE STUDENTS. I WAS REALLY WRITING A BOOK
00:11:29ABOUT US, ABOUT HOW WE HAVE ACTUALLY RADICALLY CHANGED OUR
00:11:33OWN WORLDS IN THIS NEW WORLD OF DIGITAL SELF SURVEILLANCE.
00:11:36AND SO THE BOOK KIND OF TRACKS
00:11:37HOW OUR HOMES, OUR PAPERS, OUR
00:11:41BODIES, OUR THINGS ARE ALL BEING TRANSFORMED BY THIS DIGITAL
00:11:45REVEAL WHERE WE MIGHT BE PUTTING
00:11:47ECHO OR AMAZON ALEXA IN OUR HOME LISTENING TO WHAT WE'RE SAYING
00:11:51OR A RING DOORBELL ON OUR FRONT DOOR TO WATCH WHO'S GOING IN AND
00:11:54OUT, WHICH IS BASICALLY US USUALLY GOING IN AND OUT.
00:11:56WE MIGHT BE HAVING THINGS LIKE
00:11:59FITBIT OR THOSE SMART PACEMAKERS.
00:12:02WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO HAVE WORLDS WHERE IF YOU USE DIGITAL
00:12:06PAYMENTS, SERVICES LIKE THAT IS BASICALLY REVEALING WHAT YOU'RE BUYING. AND BY DEFINITION WHERE YOU ARE
00:12:10WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT. AND IN SOME WAYS, EVERY SMART
00:12:13DEVICE THAT YOU ARE PURCHASING IS A SURVEILLANCE DEVICE. THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT YOU'RE
00:12:17BUYING. YOU'RE BUYING SURVEILLANCE AND IT WAS A QUESTION OF, OKAY, SO
00:12:20WHAT ARE WE DOING IN THIS WORLD WHERE WE ARE KIND OF REVEALING
00:12:25OURSELVES FROM THE INSIDE OUT? THIS ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT COMING
00:12:27INTO OUR HOUSE AND SAY, YOU NEED TO PUT A WIRETAP IN YOUR HOUSE.
00:12:31THIS IS US CHOOSING TO PUT AN ALEXA IN OUR HOUSE. THIS ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT SAYING
00:12:34WE'RE GOING TO PUT A TRACKER ON YOUR WRIST. IT'S US CHOOSING TO PUT AN APPLE
00:12:38SMARTWATCH ON OUR ROADS. AND THE BOOK IS NOT ABOUT
00:12:41SHAMING PEOPLE INTO THIS OR LOTS OF GOOD REASONS WHY PEOPLE USE THESE DEVICES FOR DIFFERENT
00:12:45REASONS. BUT IT'S INTERROGATING THE QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW IS IT
00:12:48CHANGING OUR WORLD? HOW DOES IT CHANGE PRIVACY? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE
00:12:52PRIVACY OR AN EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY IN A WORLD WHERE
00:12:56EVERYTHING IS BEING RECORDED AS YOU WALK OUTSIDE OR EVEN IN A STORE OR ANYWHERE ELSE?
00:12:59WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GIVE THE POWER TO COMPANIES WHO ARE
00:13:03ACTUALLY COLLECTING THIS DATA IN
00:13:05WAYS THAT WE ARE ONLY BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND?
00:13:09THESE COMPANIES ARE SELLING THEIR TECHNOLOGIES TO POLICE
00:13:11DEPARTMENTS ARE ALSO SELLING IT OBVIOUSLY TO US AND WE'RE BUYING IT.
00:13:14WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN THAT WORLD OF SELF SURVEILLANCE?
00:13:17AND WE ASK THESE QUESTIONS OF SO
00:13:19WHO IS GOING TO BE HARMED BY THIS?
00:13:22IS IT GOING TO BE THE PEOPLE WHO
00:13:25ARE TRADITIONALLY THE TARGETS OF SURVEILLANCE AND IT IS OBVIOUSLY POOR COMMUNITIES.
00:13:29COMMUNITIES OF COLOR ARE GENERALLY BEING TARGETED.
00:13:33BUT THIS SORT OF APERTURES SURVEILLANCE IS EXPANDING.
00:13:35WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE THAT PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD, LIKE THE SMART
00:13:39REFRIGERATOR, TO ORDER MILK WHEN YOU RUN OUT LIKE THOSE ARE
00:13:41PEOPLE WITH MEANS THAT ARE NOW SURVEILLING THEMSELVES IN WAYS
00:13:45THAT THEY HAVE NOT NECESSARILY ALWAYS BEEN WORRIED ABOUT.
00:13:47THERE'S A PRIVILEGE THAT HAS
00:13:50COME WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE MONEY WHO DIDN'T THINK THEY WOULD BE
00:13:53THE TARGET OF SURVEILLANCE, WHO NOW HAVE EXPOSED THEMSELVES.
00:13:56NO ONE NO ONE WHO HAS BOUGHT INTO A WORLD OF SMART DEVICES
00:13:59CAN ACTUALLY HIDE BEHIND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOW REVEALING
00:14:03THEMSELVES IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT WAYS. AND SO THE BOOK TRIES TO WALK
00:14:06THROUGH HOW OUR WORLD HAS CHANGED, LITERALLY, HOW OUR PHYSICAL WORLDS CHANGED TO
00:14:10REVEAL DATA ABOUT OURSELVES, AND THEN ASK HOW DOES IT CHANGE
00:14:14POWER AND PRIVACY AND THE SORT OF PRACTICAL REALITIES OF, AS
00:14:17YOU MIGHT IMAGINE, EVERY TIME THIS IS SORT OF ROLLED OUT, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS
00:14:21WHEN HUMANS ENTER THE MIX AND TRY TO USE IT FOR INVESTIGATION.
00:14:23THERE'S FALSE MATCHES FOR FACIAL RECOGNITION.
00:14:25THEIR FALSE IDEAS FOR DIFFERENT KINDS OF TECHNOLOGY SENSOR TECHNOLOGIES.
00:14:29AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IN PRACTICE? BUT THEN IT TRIES TO OFFER
00:14:33SOLUTIONS AND SAYS, WELL, HOW CAN WE UPDATE OUR FOURTH AMENDMENT PRINCIPLES IN TERMS OF
00:14:37FIGURING OUT WHAT A REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY MIGHT
00:14:40MEAN IN AN ERA WHERE EVERYTHING IS SIMILARLY EXPOSED.
00:14:43WHAT ARE WE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT IN THIS NEW WORLD OF DIGITAL TRACKING THAT ARE ABLE
00:14:47TO TRACK YOU WHERE YOU'RE GOING AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING?
00:14:50AND SO TO OFFER SOLUTIONS FOR
00:14:53LEGISLATORS, FOR JUDGES AND FOR COMMUNITIES TO SORT OF RESPOND
00:14:55TO THAT. AND SO THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT.
00:14:59I WOULD SAY MY JUST TO TAKE AWAY. SO IT'S GOOD TO HAVE TAKEAWAYS
00:15:02TO TAKEAWAY IS, IS THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME THE MOST, THE
00:15:06THINGS THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE AN EXPERT IN THIS STUFF. I SUPPOSED TO HAVE STUDIED IT. THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME THE
00:15:10MOST WERE ONE. THERE'S NO DATA IN YOUR LIFE.
00:15:14NO DATA THAT IS TOO PRIVATE,
00:15:16THAT CAN'T BE OBTAINED BY PROSECUTORS WITH A WARRANT AND
00:15:19MANY TIMES WITHOUT A WARRANT. SO THE DIGITAL DIARY, WHERE YOU WRITE YOUR SECRETS, THE
00:15:24INFORMATION FROM YOUR PERIOD OFF THE TRACKS, YOUR -- CYCLE, YOUR SMART BED DATA, YOUR SMART
00:15:29TOOTHBRUSH, ANYTHING YOU HAVE
00:15:31CREATED WITH A WARRANT CAN PROBABLY BE OBTAINED.
00:15:35SECOND IS THAT WE'VE SORT OF REVERSE THE DEFAULT OF SURVEILLANCE WHERE USED TO BE
00:15:39THE CASE THAT POLICE WOULD ONLY FOLLOW YOU IF THEY THOUGHT YOU HAD DONE SOMETHING WRONG.
00:15:43THEY ONLY TRACK YOU IF THEY HAD SUSPICION. BUT NOW WE SORT OF REVERSE THAT
00:15:46DEFAULT WHERE EVERYONE IS UNDER SURVEILLANCE ALL THE TIME. IF YOU THINK THAT AUTOMATED
00:15:49LICENSE PLATE READERS, RIGHT, THIS IDEA THAT YOUR LICENSE PLATE IS BEING TRACKED EVERYWHERE YOU GO, IT USED TO BE
00:15:53THE CASE THAT POLICE MIGHT HAVE A HEARTLESS WHERE THEY'D FIND
00:15:57THE STOLEN CAR. NOW, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF
00:16:00INNOCENT PEOPLE'S CARS, INCLUDING ALL OF YOURS, ARE BEING TRACKED WITH NO SUSPICION.
00:16:05AND POLICE THEN GET TO DECIDE WHEN THEY WANT TO USE THAT DATA
00:16:08FOR THEIR INVESTIGATIVE PURPOSES. WE'VE REVERSED A DEFAULT WHERE
00:16:12EVERYONE EVERYWHERE IS ALWAYS UNDER SURVEILLANCE.
00:16:14WITH A USE OF USE OF IT'S WE'RE
00:16:17DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT AND WHETHER YOU TRUST THE GOVERNMENT
00:16:19NOT TO MISUSE THAT POWER. SO THAT'S SORT OF A BRIEF
00:16:23OVERVIEW OF THE BOOK. AND NOW WE CAN GET INTO SOME OF THE HARD QUESTIONS OR EASY
00:16:27QUESTIONS. WHAT HAVE YOU GOT AS WE TALK ABOUT THEN? WE'RE GOING TO OPEN IT UP FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.
00:16:31AND AGAIN, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.
00:16:34SO, YES, FOR THOSE OF YOU AT HOME, WE'RE IN THE FANTASTIC
00:16:37COLLECTED WORKS BOOKSHOP, A 45
00:16:39YEAR INSTITUTION WAS THAT SO?
00:16:43PLEASE COME IN AND BUY THIS BOOK.
00:16:46AND EVERY OF THE OTHER BOOKS AS WELL. SO ONE THING THAT REALLY STRIKES
00:16:50ME AND YOU REFERRED TO THIS IN THIS SHIFTING OF THE DEFAULT, I
00:16:54MEAN, IT USED TO BE THAT POLICE WOULD BE SELECTIVE IN THEIR
00:16:57SURVEILLANCE BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAD THE RESOURCES TO SURVEIL CERTAIN PEOPLE.
00:17:02I TALKED ONCE WITH A FRIEND WHO GREW UP IN EAST GERMANY, AND HE
00:17:05DESCRIBED HOW, ACCORDING TO HIM, YOU KNOW, THE STASI, THE SECRET
00:17:08POLICE ACTUALLY, THEY ACTUALLY
00:17:13EMPLOYED ABOUT 2% OF THE
00:17:14POPULATION AND HAD ANOTHER ABOUT ANOTHER 10% OR SO OF THE
00:17:19POPULATION AS INFORMANTS. THAT TAKES SOME REAL RESOURCES
00:17:22RIGHT ON THE PART OF ON THE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT.
00:17:25IT TAKES TIME AND EFFORT AND NOW
00:17:28IT'S ALL AT SCALE.
00:17:31AND, YOU KNOW, AS YOU SAID IN YOUR TALK TODAY AT THE CENTER OF
00:17:36INSTITUTE, THE POLICE CAN JUST GATHER ALL OF THIS DATA AND THEN
00:17:39GO BACK OVER IT AT THEIR LEISURE TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANYTHING
00:17:43INTERESTING TO TRACE THEM AS MOVEMENTS GOING BACKWARD AND SO
00:17:47ON. SO, OF COURSE, SCALE IS THE
00:17:51WATCHWORD OF OUR SOCIETY NOWADAYS, AND IT'S SILICON
00:17:53VALLEY, BUT IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT HOW EASY THIS HAS
00:17:57BECOME? NO, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY INSIGHTFUL POINT.
00:18:00SO SCALE IS ONE OF THE DIFFERENTIATING FACTORS OF WHAT'S GOING ON.
00:18:04SO IMAGINE VIDEO CAMERAS. WE'VE HAD VIDEO CAMERAS IN OUR
00:18:08SOCIETY FOR A LONG PERIOD TIME. WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN ON THE STREET CORNERS IN THAT WAY. NOW, PICTURE THAT ONE VIDEO
00:18:12CAMERA EXPANDED TO TEN VIDEO
00:18:14CAMERAS TO 100 VIDEO CAMERAS TO THE 10,000 VIDEO CAMERAS AND
00:18:18CERTAIN CITIES OR 30,000 IN CHICAGO AND OTHER PLACES.
00:18:21NOW, IMAGINE EACH ONE OF THOSE VIDEO CAMERAS IS STREAMING BACK
00:18:24THE VIDEO FEED TO A CENTRAL COMMAND CENTER WHERE IT'S NOT
00:18:29JUST BEING ABLE TO WATCH 30,000 CAMERAS, WHICH IS SORT OF IMPOSSIBLE TO DO, BUT TO HAVE A
00:18:32AI VIDEO ANALYTICS OVERLAID,
00:18:36OBSERVING THE DIFFERENT OBJECTS THAT ARE GOING ON IN ALL OF THESE VIDEO STREAMS SO POLICE
00:18:41CAN, AS WE SAID IN THE BEGINNING, THEY GO THROUGH A VIRTUAL PATROL FROM CAMERA TO CAMERA.
00:18:45CAMERA, BUT THEY ALSO CAN BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY ALL OF THE
00:18:48OBJECTS IN THOSE CAMERA STREAMS,
00:18:50ALL OF THE MEN, WOMEN, CHILD
00:18:54CAR, BICYCLE, TRICYCLE, MOTORCYCLE, WHITE CAR, WHITE
00:18:56VAN, WHATEVER IT IS. BY OBJECT RECOGNITION, WE'VE
00:18:59TRAINED THE SYSTEMS TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THOSE DIFFERENT
00:19:02OBJECTS SO YOU CAN TRACE IT BACK IN TIME. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT
00:19:05VISUALIZING THAT CAMERA AS YOU WALK DOWN THE STREET, YOU'LL SEE A CAMERA. IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.
00:19:09BUT WHEN THAT CAMERA IS MAGNIFIED AT SCALE WITH THE
00:19:11VIDEO ANALYTICS AND AI
00:19:14ABILITIES, YOU CAN SUDDENLY TURN A SINGLE CAMERA INTO A NETWORK
00:19:17OF SURVEILLANCE THAT WE'VE JUST NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
00:19:20WE HAVEN'T LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE WE'VE HAD THAT CAPACITY
00:19:23AND WE NOW ARE EDGING INTO IT
00:19:25PRETTY QUICKLY IN MANY PLACES
00:19:27AND IN PLACES THAT YOU MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT.
00:19:30THERE ARE MANY SMALL TOWNS THAT ARE INVESTING IN REAL TIME PRIME
00:19:34CENTERS BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT A LOT OF FEDERAL FUNDING.
00:19:36EVEN IN PAST ADMINISTRATIONS, TO
00:19:38BUILD OUT THESE CAMERA SYSTEMS THAT ARE NOW PART OF THIS SORT OF ARCHITECTURE OF SURVEILLANCE
00:19:42THAT IS OPENING THE DOOR.
00:19:44AND SO IF YOU VIEW A SINGLE CAMERA AS WELL, IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL.
00:19:48WE'VE ALWAYS HAD CAMERAS. IF YOU CHANGE THAT TO THINK ABOUT THE SCALE, THE SPEED AND
00:19:51THE AGGREGATION, WHAT YOU CAN DO IS DATA. IT'S A NEW PROBLEM SET, AND PART
00:19:55OF WHAT THE BOOK TRIES TO DO IS WRESTLE WITH, WELL, SHOULDN'T
00:19:57THE LAW REGULATION AND OUR SORT
00:20:00OF CULTURAL SENSE LIKE RESPOND TO THAT, LIKE THE CHANGE WE HAVE
00:20:04SEEN THE TECHNOLOGY CHANGE, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE LAW RESPOND
00:20:06TO IT AND MAYBE IT SHOULD. AND AS YOU TALKED ABOUT EARLIER
00:20:10AND AS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE THING
00:20:12TO SAY THAT THE POLICE ARE GOING
00:20:15TO A PARK IN A CAR WITH A PERSON PEEING IN A BOTTLE OR WHATEVER,
00:20:19YOU KNOW, AND STAKE OUT YOUR HOUSE. IT'S ANOTHER THING TO SAY THERE
00:20:23ARE JUST GOING TO BE CAMERAS ON EVERY LAMPPOST, EVERYWHERE,
00:20:27LOOKING AT EVERYONE. AND I THINK THE YOU KNOW, YOU
00:20:29TALKED ABOUT THE THE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY. I MEAN, AT ONE LEVEL, I THINK
00:20:33PEOPLE FIGURE, WELL, IT'S TRUE. I'M WALKING ON A PUBLIC
00:20:37THOROUGHFARE. PEOPLE CAN SEE ME IF THEY SEE
00:20:41ME, YOU KNOW, GOING IN AND OUT OF MY MISTRESS'S APARTMENT, WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, IT'S ON ME.
00:20:46BUT BUT IF THE GOVERNMENT IS SEEING ALL OF THAT ALL THE TIME,
00:20:51THEN IT STARTS TO FEEL VERY DIFFERENT.
00:20:52IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE
00:20:55AGGREGATION OF IT, WHICH WASN'T FEASIBLE BEFORE.
00:20:59AND YOU ALSO TALK TO A LOT IN
00:21:01THE BOOK ABOUT HOW IT'S ONE THING TO SAY THAT, YES, POLICE
00:21:05CAN GET A WARRANT FOR NEARLY ANYTHING. THE HEARTBEAT DATA, FOR INSTANCE.
00:21:09IT'S ANOTHER THING THAT THAT THEY CAN JUST BUY THE DATA THEY
00:21:12MIGHT LIKE THAT HISTORICALLY, IF
00:21:16THERE WAS A HISTORICAL ANALOGY, THEY WOULD NEED A JUDICIAL WARRANT.
00:21:20NOW THEY JUST BUY IT FROM A THIRD PARTY COMPANY AND THEY DON'T NEED A WARRANT AT ALL.
00:21:23YEAH. SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE SEEING
00:21:26IN ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS IS HOW
00:21:28OUR NORMS AND EXPECTATION. AND SO WE'RE BUILT ESSENTIALLY
00:21:31ON ANALOG CASES HAVE CHANGED OR
00:21:33BEEN UNDERMINED IN A WORLD OF DIGITAL SURVEILLANCE.
00:21:37THE FACT THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE HAD A WARRANT TO GET PARTICULAR DATA
00:21:41IS NOT BAD. WARRANTS ARE ACTUALLY GOOD THINGS TO HAVE.
00:21:45THEY REQUIRE THE POLICE TO GO TO
00:21:47A JUDGE AND HAVE A JUDGE SIGN OFF ON PROBABLE CAUSE THAT THERE
00:21:51IS SOMETHING TO GET WARRANTS OR PRETTY LOW STANDARD, PROBABLE
00:21:54CAUSE, A PRETTY LOW STANDARD. IF YOU THINK ABOUT A
00:21:57PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE LIKE 51%, PROBABLE CAUSE IS DECIDEDLY LESS THAN THAT. YOU CAN BE WRONG.
00:22:02AND USUALLY THE WARRANT PROCESS IS KIND OF ONE SIDED.
00:22:06THE POLICE COME WITH THEIR INFORMATION. THE JUDGE DOESN'T HAVE ANY
00:22:08INFORMATION TO PUSH BACK ON IT,
00:22:10AND MOST WARRANTS ARE REALLY SIGNED.
00:22:13SO WITH A CRIMINAL PREDICATE, YOU CAN USUALLY GET DATA INCLUDING VERY INTIMATE DATA,
00:22:18WITHOUT ANY ABILITY TO REALLY PUSH BACK.
00:22:21AND IN MANY CASES, YOU DON'T EVEN NEED A WARRANT. ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE SEEN
00:22:25MOST RECENTLY IS THAT THE REASON WHY POLICE HAVE BEEN GETTING
00:22:28WARRANTS FOR THINGS LIKE CELL
00:22:29SITE LOCATION AND OR REALLY THE
00:22:33GEOFENCE WARRANTS WAS JUST BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT IN A CASE CALLED UNITED CITIES CHARTER.
00:22:37IS THAT GOOGLE, THE COMPANY, HAD DEMANDED THAT THE POLICE GET A
00:22:42WARRANT. IT WASN'T GOVERNMENT SAID OR IT
00:22:46WASN'T THE COURT SAYING IT OR IT WAS GOOGLE, THE COMPANY SAYING.
00:22:49AND IN FACT, IN THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT, TWO AND A HALF WEEKS AGO, THE SOLICITOR
00:22:54GENERAL, THE UNITED STATES, GOT UP BEFORE THE JUSTICES FROM COURT AND SAID, WE DON'T THINK
00:22:57WE EVEN NEEDED A WARRANT TO ASK GOOGLE FOR THIS. THE CUSTOMER GAVE YOUR DATA TO GOOGLE.
00:23:02WHY WOULD THEY HAVE AN EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY? AND EVEN WE'LL SEE WHAT THE JUSTICES DO.
00:23:06BUT THEY WERE A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT THAT. AND THEY SEEMED TO PUSH BACK
00:23:11AGAINST IT. BUT THAT WAS A POSITION THAT NO STATES GOVERNMENT THAT ALL OF YOUR DATA THAT GOOGLE HAS, EVERY
00:23:14GOOGLE SEARCH, EVERY PLACE YOU'VE BEEN. YOUR GOOGLE MAPS, GMAIL, ALL
00:23:18THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE WITHOUT A WARRANT. SO WARRANTS ARE A PIECE OF IT,
00:23:22BUT NOT NECESSARILY PROTECTIVE. AND AS YOU SAID, THE WARRANT
00:23:26THAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON HAS A REALLY BIG LOOPHOLE, WHICH IS IF
00:23:29THAT DATA IS COLLECTED AND BEING
00:23:32RESOLD, THE GOVERNMENT CAN ALSO BE A PURCHASER. THEY CAN LITERALLY SAY, WELL, WE
00:23:36CLICK ON A WARRANT, BUT WE COULD ALSO GO BUY IT. AND RIGHT NOW THERE IS A
00:23:40LOOPHOLE THAT MUCH OF YOUR DATA THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE PROTECTED BY A WARRANT IS
00:23:44ACTUALLY AVAILABLE FOR POLICE TO PURCHASE. IF THEY WANTED TO GO THROUGH THE
00:23:47PROCESS OF PURCHASING IT.
00:23:49WE LEARNED EARLIER IN MAY, LAST MONTH OR TWO MONTHS AGO THAT THE
00:23:53FBI IS DOING THIS UNDER A
00:23:55CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY AND IT'S
00:23:57A BIG ENOUGH PROBLEM THAT SENATOR RON WYDEN AND HAS A BILL
00:24:02CALLED THE FOURTH AMENDMENT IS NOT FOR SALE ACT.
00:24:04THAT IS A BILL, NOT A LAW, BUT A
00:24:07BILL SAYING THAT YOU WOULDN'T YOU COULDN'T HAVE THIS SORT OF
00:24:11LOOPHOLE OF JUST PURCHASING YOUR WAY AROUND THE FOURTH AMENDMENT.
00:24:13BUT ALL OF THAT GOES TO THIS PROBLEM OF OUR CURRENT LAW OF
00:24:17EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY JUST DOESN'T REALLY FIT THE MOMENT OF
00:24:20THIS DIGITAL REVEAL.
00:24:22WE'RE LIVING IN A WORLD WHERE THIS DATA IS BEING REVEALED ALL
00:24:25THE TIME, AND WE HAVEN'T CREATED THE LEGAL MECHANISMS TO SORT OF
00:24:30REBALANCE THAT POWER DYNAMIC. AND PART OF WHAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT IS GETTING PEOPLE AWARE OF
00:24:34THAT AND THINKING ABOUT THAT. YEAH, I DID PUT ALL THOSE DEVICES ON MY HOME.
00:24:37YEAH, I DO HAVE THAT IN MY HOUSE. I KIND OF WAS HOPING TO BE PROTECTED.
00:24:41MAYBE IT'S NOT AND MAYBE WE CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW THE LAW CAN RESPOND.
00:24:46KNOW, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT A LOT OF US ARE
00:24:48EXPERIENCING IS THAT THE TECH COMPANIES ARE DOING THEIR BEST
00:24:52TO MANUFACTURE THE ILLUSION OF
00:24:55INTIMACY AND THE ILLUSION THAT
00:24:57THIS THING IS YOUR THING. YOU'RE DEALING WITH IT.
00:25:00IT'S, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T EVEN REALIZE THAT
00:25:05WHAT YOU SAY TO ALEXA IS GOING IMMEDIATELY TO SOME AMAZON
00:25:08SERVER AND BEING STORED AND PROCESSED THERE.
00:25:10AND THEN THE ANSWER IS BEING
00:25:12PIPED BACK DOWN.
00:25:16SOME COMPANIES TRY TO DO MORE OF THE PROCESSING LOCALLY AND SOME
00:25:20COMPANIES HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A STRONGER POLICY AROUND AROUND
00:25:24PRIVACY AND ENCRYPTION SO THAT WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SAYS WE WANT THAT DATA, SOMETIMES THEY CAN
00:25:28SAY WE DON'T HAVE IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY IN UNENCRYPTED
00:25:33FORM. BUT COMPANIES WANT TO HAVE IT IN AN ENCRYPTED FORM BECAUSE THEY
00:25:36CAN SELL IT. AND AND A LOT OF THESE PRODUCTS LIKE THE FITBIT, LIKE EVEN
00:25:42CHILDREN'S GAMES, THESE
00:25:44MONSTROUS NEW TEDDY BEARS OR WHATEVER THAT ARE TALKING TO
00:25:48YOUR CHILD AND ALSO RECORDING YOUR CHILD. I'M HAPPY TO SAY THAT MY CHILD
00:25:52IS NOW TOO OLD TO HAVE ONE OF THESE.
00:25:54I MEAN, THESE ARE AS ONE PERSON
00:25:56CALLS THEM, THESE ARE TWO SIDED MARKETS.
00:25:59THEY'RE SELLING YOU A SERVICE OR IN SOME CASES OFFERING IT TO YOU FOR FREE.
00:26:02AND THEN THEY'RE SELLING YOUR DATA TO OTHER PEOPLE, INCLUDING,
00:26:06AS YOU SAY, THE GOVERNMENT. AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T EVEN REALIZE THIS.
00:26:09YOU KNOW, I THINK I IN THE EARLY DAYS OF SOCIAL MEDIA, I THINK A
00:26:13LOT OF PEOPLE HONESTLY THOUGHT
00:26:15THAT WHEN THEY POSTED SOMETHING
00:26:17ON TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM THAT THEY WERE SHOWING IT TO THEIR FRIENDS.
00:26:21THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU'RE DOING. YOU'RE SHOWING IT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD.
00:26:24AND HANDING IT AS INTELLECTUAL
00:26:27PROPERTY TO THE COMPANY THAT HAPPENS TO BE HOSTING IT.
00:26:30THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING. AND I THINK YOU MENTIONED TODAY
00:26:35THAT ESPECIALLY AS PEOPLE ARE
00:26:37RELYING MORE ON CHAT BOTS, CHAT, CHAT, TRIBUTE AND SO ON, THEY'RE
00:26:41ASKING THEM QUESTIONS IN MANY
00:26:43CASES VERY PERSONAL QUESTIONS, BECAUSE THESE THINGS GIVE THE
00:26:47ILLUSION OF, AGAIN, PERSONAL INTIMACY.
00:26:50THEY'RE SHARING DEEP SECRETS WITH THEM.
00:26:53AND I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE REALIZE YOU'RE SHARING
00:26:56THAT WITH A MAJOR CORPORATION. YOU'RE NOT SHARING IT WITH SOME
00:26:59LITTLE HOMUNCULUS THAT LIVES ON YOUR COMPUTER. YOU'RE YOU'RE SENDING IT
00:27:02DIRECTLY TO THEM AND I'M NOT
00:27:05SURE WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE.
00:27:08OF COURSE, PEOPLE DO WANT THESE PRODUCTS.
00:27:11PART OF ME FEELS LIKE, OH, COME ON, DIDN'T YOU REALIZE THAT WHAT
00:27:14YOU'RE DOING, THIS IS ON YOU? YOU'RE JUST, YOU KNOW, COME ON,
00:27:17GET WITH IT LIKE AN EXAMPLE YOU
00:27:20GAVE IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO GOOGLED, YOU KNOW, HOW DO I
00:27:25DISPOSE OF A BODY?
00:27:27WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CLEAN BLOODSTAINS OFF A PARQUET FLOOR
00:27:31OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW? SO, I MEAN, I GUESS HE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT INCOGNITO MODE.
00:27:34SO IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, COME ON, HE WAS AN IDIOT. BUT THE CHAT BOTS ARE ANOTHER,
00:27:40ANOTHER HIGHER LEVEL OF THIS ILLUSION OF INTIMACY.
00:27:45AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT, ALTHOUGH YOU SAY IN
00:27:48THE BOOK THAT IT'S A BIT OF A STRETCH, IS I DON'T THAT'S NOT
00:27:52YOUR WORD. BUT THE IDEA THAT JUST AS A
00:27:56HANDFUL OF TYPES OF COMMUNICATION WITH OUR SPOUSE,
00:27:59OUR THERAPIST, OUR DOCTOR, THESE
00:28:01ARE PRIVILEGED AND THEY'RE IMPOSSIBLE TO OBTAIN EVEN WITH A
00:28:05WARRANT THAT MAY BE TO THE EXTENT WE'RE STARTING TO USE
00:28:09THESE DEVICES IN THESE INTIMATE WAYS, OUR COMMUNICATIONS WITH
00:28:12THEM SHOULD BE PRIVILEGED IN THE SAME WAY AS WELL.
00:28:15BUT THAT SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW,
00:28:17THAT WOULD BE ASKING FOR A BIG
00:28:19UPDATE TO HOW WE THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS.
00:28:22YEAH, I MEAN, THE BOOK OFFERS SOME BIG UPDATES, BUT IT ALSO IS
00:28:26TRYING TO GET TO THE CORE THING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS WE'VE ALL KIND OF BEEN SEDUCED BY SELF
00:28:30SURVEILLANCE, RIGHT? THIS IDEA THAT THESE DEVICES
00:28:32WILL HELP US IN CERTAIN WAYS HAS
00:28:34BEEN THE REASON WHY IT'S A
00:28:36MULTIBILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS. RIGHT.
00:28:39NO ONE HAS FORCED YOU TO BUY ANY OF THESE SELF SURVEILLANCE
00:28:43DEVICES. YOU HAVE BEEN CONVINCED TO IT AND SOMETIMES ARE GREAT REASONS FOR IT.
00:28:46AGAIN, THAT'S SORT OF WHAT THE TENSION OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT, IS
00:28:49ABOUT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CHANGES WHEN WE HAVE ESSENTIALLY
00:28:52BEEN SEDUCED INTO BUYING SELL SURVEILLANCE.
00:28:56HOW DOES IT CHANGE OUR PRIVACY, OUR POWER, AND WHAT CAN WE DO
00:29:00ABOUT IT? AND IT WRESTLES WITH THAT SENSE
00:29:02OF THESE INTIMATE THINGS LIKE WE
00:29:04ARE GIVING OUR MEDICAL DATA UP.
00:29:06WE ARE GIVING OUR HEARTBEAT DATA
00:29:08UP IN WAYS THAT WE HADN'T EVER BEFORE.
00:29:12AND WHAT WE HAVE AND RECOGNIZE, OF COURSE, IS THAT IT IS
00:29:15AVAILABLE TO THE POLICE WITH
00:29:19AWARD AND SOMETIMES WITHOUT
00:29:20UNLESS, AS YOU SAY, THERE IS A
00:29:23CHOICE MADE BY THE COMPANIES NOT TO KEEP IT.
00:29:27AND IF YOU'RE A COMPANY WHO'S TRYING TO MONETIZE DATA, IT'S HARD.
00:29:31IT'S A HARD CHOICE TO MAKE TO NOT KEEP IT. THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON YOU ARE
00:29:34TRYING TO OFFER THESE SERVICES. SO THAT'S WHY THEY'RE MAKING THEM. IT'S THE ADVERTISEMENT IDEA.
00:29:38AND LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW,
00:29:40GOOGLE OR IF YOU OR THE AMAZON IS A GOOD, YOU KNOW, GOOD
00:29:43EXAMPLE, I THINK THERE ARE MANY
00:29:46CASES WHERE POLICE HAVE A GOOD
00:29:50REASON WHY THEY MIGHT WANT A PARTICULAR GOOGLE SEARCH. RIGHT.
00:29:52THERE'S A CASE OUT OF COLORADO WHERE THERE'S A TRAGIC ARSON
00:29:56FIRE WHERE A WHOLE FAMILY WAS KILLED IN THIS ARSON BECAUSE THE
00:30:00KIDS WHO DID THE ARSON WERE TRYING TO GET BACK AT SOMEONE
00:30:03FOR STEALING THEIR CELL PHONE, OF ALL THINGS, AND GOT THE WRONG HOUSE.
00:30:06AND THE POLICE DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE.
00:30:08AND SO THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING. AND EVENTUALLY THEY ASKED GOOGLE
00:30:12SAID, HAS ANYONE GOOGLE THIS PARTICULAR ADDRESS?
00:30:15SO IS THAT THE PLACE OF THE THE HOME?
00:30:17AND GOOGLE SAID, YES, THERE'S
00:30:21ONLY BEEN A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO HAD GOOGLE THIS RANDOM ADDRESS AND ONE OF THEM HAPPENED TO BE
00:30:24THE KIDS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS ARSON.
00:30:27AND IT'S CALLED A REVERSE KEYWORD SEARCH.
00:30:31AND IT WOULD ALLOW POLICE TO IDENTIFY ANYONE WHO HAD GOOGLE
00:30:34TO GO THERE. MAYBE SOME OF YOU YOU PROBABLY
00:30:37KNOW WHERE COLLECTED WORKS IS. BUT IF YOU GOOGLE THE ADDRESS TO
00:30:41GET HERE LIKE THAT WAS SAVED IN A GOOGLE THING THAT THE POLICE
00:30:43COULD GET A GOOD OBTAIN WITH A
00:30:47WARRANT OR DEPENDING ON THE GOVERNMENT'S POSITION WITHOUT A
00:30:50WARRANT IN THIS WAY. AND THAT IS REALLY HELPFUL
00:30:54EVIDENCE TO POLICE. BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT IF YOU'RE
00:30:56A PERSON IN TEXAS WHO GOOGLE IS LIKE, WHAT ARE THE FIRST SIGNS
00:31:00OF PREGNANCY OR WHERE IS THE NEAREST ABORTION CLINIC, THAT
00:31:04TOO IS NOW EXPOSED IN THIS SAME
00:31:06WORLD AND THE SAME LAW APPLIES WHETHER POLICE CAN GET ACCESS
00:31:09WITH OR WITHOUT A WARRANT, DEPENDING ON THAT. AND I THINK THE TRUTH OF THE
00:31:13MATTER IS MANY OF US HAVE GOOGLED THINGS THAT WE'RE
00:31:15PROBABLY NOT EVEN WILLING TO ADMIT WE DID THAT OUR SPOUSE KNOWS ABOUT.
00:31:20WE'RE LIKE, WHAT WAS THAT RASH? WHAT WAS THAT? YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS IT?
00:31:23WHAT DO YOU GOOGLE MEDICAL THINGS ALL THE TIME, RIGHT? WHAT IS THIS WEIRD THING THAT
00:31:27JUST HAPPENED TO ME?
00:31:28AND THAT IS A WINDOW INTO OUR MINDS.
00:31:32BUT ALSO IT COULD BE THE REASON WHY AN ATTORNEY GENERAL DECIDES
00:31:36TO START TARGETING ANYONE WHO HAS GOOGLED NEAREST ABORTION
00:31:39CLINIC. AND THIS SAME LAWS APPLY, AND I
00:31:42DON'T THINK THEY'VE BEEN UPDATED TO MEET THE MOMENT OF WHERE WE
00:31:45ARE, WHERE WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE INTO HAVING THESE DISCUSSIONS
00:31:49AND COMMUNICATIONS WITH DIGITAL
00:31:51MEANS THAT, AGAIN, AS YOU SAY,
00:31:54IT IS A DIFFICULT STATEMENT TO
00:31:58SAY THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE A REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF
00:32:00PRIVACY IN THE QUESTION YOU
00:32:02ASKED A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR COMPANY NAME, GOOGLE, THAT YOU
00:32:05KNEW WAS MONITORED USING ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU GO BECAUSE THAT'S
00:32:08LITERALLY THEIR BUSINESS MODEL, RIGHT? THEY THEY MONETIZE WHAT YOU'RE GOOGLE AND THEY SELL YOU ADS ON IT.
00:32:12SO IT SEEMS ODD THAT YOU WOULD THINK YOU WOULD HAVE ANY PRIVACY. IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE.
00:32:16AND YET THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE A HARM THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN
00:32:19JUST TROLL THROUGH, RUMMAGE
00:32:21THROUGH ALL OF YOUR DATA TO FIND
00:32:24OUT ANYONE WHO HAS YOU GOOGLED NEAREST NO KINGS PROTESTS OR
00:32:28ANYTHING POLITICAL. THAT ALSO SEEMS TO BE A HARM.
00:32:30AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEPARATE OUT WHEN WE'RE
00:32:36OKAY WITH POLICE USING CERTAIN DATA AND WHEN WE'RE NOT OKAY WITH THEM USING OTHER DATA.
00:32:40SOME OF IT DEVOLVES INTO JUST
00:32:42POLITICAL PROCESS, BUT ALSO IT'S JUST A NEW WORLD OF EXPOSURE.
00:32:45WE HAVE MORE THINGS NOW EXPOSED THAN WE EVER HAD BEFORE WITH
00:32:49FEWER PROTECTIONS IN THE LAW.
00:32:53AND AS YOU TOUCHED ON IN THAT ARSON CASE, AND THE GUY WHO WAS
00:32:55TRYING TO HIDE HIS WIFE BODY, I
00:32:59MEAN, THESE TOOLS WILL HELP SOLVE REAL CRIMES, RIGHT?
00:33:03SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE
00:33:05THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE CRIMES THAT ARE GOING TO BE SOLVED WITH
00:33:08THESE TOOLS THAT COULD NOT BE SOLVED WITHOUT THESE TOOLS LIKE TRULY UNSOLVABLE CRIMES.
00:33:13AND THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY FILLED WITH STORIES ABOUT CASES THAT
00:33:17WOULD HAVE GONE UNSOLVED, BUT FOR THE FACT THAT SOMEONE HAD
00:33:20LEFT THEIR FITBIT ON DURING THE
00:33:22MURDER OR I MEAN, IT'S TRUE, OR
00:33:24ACTUALLY IT COULD BE AN ALIBI, RIGHT? SO YOU MIGHT HAVE A THERE'S A
00:33:27CASE IN THE BOOK WHERE THERE WAS A COUPLE WHO GOT INTO A FIGHT AT A BAR WITH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE,
00:33:32SEEMED PRETTY VIOLENT. AND THAT NIGHT, THE WOMAN WAS
00:33:35BRUTALLY MURDERED AND LEFT IN LIKE, THE WOODS.
00:33:37AND, OF COURSE, THE OBVIOUS SUSPECT IS GOING TO BE THE GUY, THE BOYFRIEND WHO JUST HAD A
00:33:41FIGHT IN THE BAR WITH HER. AND HIS FITBIT SHOWED THAT HE
00:33:45HAD ONLY TAKEN 12 STEPS THAT NIGHT. AND HE WAS ACTUALLY LIKE PROVE,
00:33:48YOU KNOW, ACQUITTED ESSENTIALLY PROVEN NOT INVOLVED BECAUSE HIS
00:33:52FITBIT WAS HIS ALIBI. AND ODDLY ENOUGH, ANOTHER
00:33:56GENTLEMAN WHO HAD IN A WHOLLY SEPARATE CASE, DECIDED TO GIVE
00:33:59HIS CELL PHONE DATA TO THE POLICE FOR SOME HIT AND RUN ISSUE.
00:34:02THEY THEN WENT BACK TO HIS CELL PHONE DATA AND SAID, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF LINES UP WITH THE
00:34:05FACT THAT YOU WERE AT THE BAR, YOU WERE AT THE PLACE WHERE SHE
00:34:09WAS EVENTUALLY RECOVERED AND IN FACT, YOUR PATH TRACKS HER PATH.
00:34:11AND SO THE DATA WAS USED AGAINST
00:34:15HIM FOR WAYS I THINK WE'D ALL SAY THAT'S WONDERFUL AND ACQUITS
00:34:19THE GUY WHO OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE OBVIOUS SUSPECT IN A
00:34:22WAY WHERE WHICH COMPLICATES. AND SO THE BOOK IS NOT DESPITE
00:34:25ITS TITLE, NOT JUST ABOUT HOW
00:34:28DATA WILL BE USED AND WEAPONIZED FOR POLITICAL REASONS OR
00:34:32PERSONAL REASONS OR IDENTITY REASONS, BUT ALSO HOW IT REALLY
00:34:36WILL CHANGE A CRIMINAL
00:34:38PROSECUTION IN THE FUTURE IN TEN YEARS FROM NOW.
00:34:40IF YOU'RE TRYING CASE IN A
00:34:42COURT, THE JURORS ARE GOING TO EXPECT DIGITAL EVIDENCE.
00:34:45WELL, WHY WASN'T THERE A CAMERA? WHY WASN'T THERE A CELL PHONE?
00:34:49JUST LIKE WE HAD A MOMENT WHERE AFTER LIKE CSI, THAT TV SHOW
00:34:53ABOUT CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION, EVERYONE WAS ASKING, WHERE'S THE
00:34:56DNA? WE CAN'T HAVE A PROSECUTION WITHOUT A DNA. SO WAS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH DIGITAL FORENSICS.
00:35:00PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE EXPECTING THIS IN A WAY THAT'S GOING TO
00:35:03CHANGE POLICE AND PROSECUTION. THE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW IS OUR
00:35:07LAWS AND RULES HAVEN'T YET MET THE MOMENT OF WHERE WE ARE.
00:35:11SO A WORLD IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALL THIS DATA
00:35:15ABOUT US WILL BE IN SOME WAYS A SAFER WORLD OR IT WILL BE A
00:35:19WORLD IN WHICH SOME CRIMES GET SOLVED.
00:35:21IT WILL ALSO BE A WORLD IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE ABLE TO
00:35:25DO THINGS OTHER THAN SOLVING CRIMES.
00:35:28IF, FOR INSTANCE, THE GOVERNMENT HAPPENS TO BE TAKEN OVER BY A
00:35:32REGIME THAT WANTS TO RETALIATE AGAINST ITS POLITICAL OPPONENTS,
00:35:35NOT THAT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN HERE, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO
00:35:39RAISE THE ISSUE BEFORE THAT DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS AND EVEN DIFFERENT STATES HAVE DIFFERENT
00:35:43IDEAS ABOUT WHAT CONSTITUTES A CRIME. ONE OF THE THINGS I'M VERY PROUD
00:35:46OF HERE, AS A NEW MEXICAN, NOT THAT I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH
00:35:49IT, BUT IN OUR LAST SESSION, A
00:35:52BILL WAS PASSED SAYING THAT
00:35:54AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READER
00:35:56DATA WOULD NOT BE OFFERED TO LAW
00:36:00ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES THAT ARE FROM OUT OF STATE UNLESS THERE
00:36:03WAS AN AGREEMENT THAT IT WOULD
00:36:05NOT BE USED TO PURSUE ABORTION,
00:36:10WHICH WAS VIEWED AS A CRIME. AND SOME OTHER STATES OR FOR
00:36:13IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT. THIS WAS A REALLY AMAZING BILL
00:36:17BECAUSE, AS YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK, EVEN WHEN THERE IS PRIVACY
00:36:20LEGISLATION, THERE IS ALMOST
00:36:22ALWAYS A GENERAL EXCEPTION FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT.
00:36:26WITHOUT ANY SPECIFICITY ABOUT WHICH LAW ENFORCEMENT WE MIGHT
00:36:28BE TALKING ABOUT. IT'S JUST A VERY BROAD
00:36:32EXCEPTION. AND THE FACT THAT A STATE IS
00:36:34WILLING TO SAY NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SHARE THIS OUT OF STATE
00:36:38UNLESS WE'RE GIVEN ASSURANCES ABOUT WHAT IS BEING PROSECUTED
00:36:42IS, I THINK, AN AMAZING STEP FORWARD.
00:36:45I'M SAD THAT IT WAS A STEP WE HAD TO TAKE.
00:36:47I THINK I WANT TO MOVE SINCE FOR I KNOW SOME PEOPLE IN THE
00:36:51AUDIENCE PROBABLY HAVE QUESTIONS AS WELL. ONE REALLY INTERESTING THING
00:36:57THAT WE SAW NOT THAT LONG AGO
00:36:59WAS IN MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE LOTS
00:37:01OF PEOPLE ENGAGED IN WHAT SOME
00:37:03PEOPLE CALL SURVEILLANCE SURVEILLANCE FROM BELOW.
00:37:07INSTEAD OF FROM ABOVE. IF YOU REMEMBER YOUR FRENCH.
00:37:10AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT
00:37:12CITIZENS WITH THEIR CELL PHONES
00:37:14WOULD BE SURVEILLED, POLICE
00:37:17OFFICERS, ICE OFFICERS AND SO
00:37:19ON, AND INDEED, THE STATE OF
00:37:21MINNESOTA ENCOURAGED THEM TO DO SO.
00:37:24SO THIS FURTHER COMPLICATES THE STORY RIGHT?
00:37:28BECAUSE SURVEILLANCE IS IN PRINCIPLE SOMETHING WHERE THE
00:37:32SURVEILLANCE IS IN PRINCIPLE, SOMETHING THAT CAN AID GOVERNMENT TO ACCOUNTABILITY,
00:37:37DETECT POLICE BRUTALITY. AS YOU KNOW, IN THE THE BLACK
00:37:39LIVES MATTER CASES AND SO ON.
00:37:43AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING WHICH IS GOING TO BE THESE
00:37:47TECHNOLOGIES ARE GOING TO BE POSSESSED BY MANY DIFFERENT
00:37:51PLAYERS AT MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS
00:37:51OF SOCIETY, FOR BETTER OR WORSE.
00:37:57YOU KNOW, YOU AS YOU AS YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THE
00:38:02TRADITIONAL AMERICAN IDEA WAS
00:38:06THAT THERE ARE LIMITS ON THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO ACT AGAINST ITS CITIZENS, THAT THE
00:38:11BALANCE OF POWER SHOULD BE ON THE SIDE OF THE CITIZENS. AND NOW THIS SEEMS TO BE
00:38:15FLIPPING. DO YOU THINK THE SURVEILLANCE
00:38:18CAN FLIP IT BACK OR BALANCE IT
00:38:20OUT, OR IS IT, IN THE LONG RUN
00:38:24JUST MORE BAD NEWS BECAUSE YOU KNOW, NOW THAT WE'RE PUTTING
00:38:27RING CAMERAS ON OUR DOORS, PROBABLY PEOPLE THINK OF THAT AS
00:38:31SURVEILLANCE AS WELL.
00:38:33BUT IN MANY JURISTIC ACTIONS THAT CAN JUST BE ACCESSED BY THE
00:38:37POLICE. SO IS THIS GOING TO BE MORE DATA
00:38:39FOR CITIZENS OR IS IT ALL JUST GOING TO TURN INTO DATA FOR THE
00:38:43GOVERNMENT? AFTER ALL, IT'S A COMPLICATED
00:38:47QUESTION. WE TRY TO TIE THEM TOGETHER WITH A THEME THAT INVOLVES SORT OF
00:38:51THE POWER OF PEOPLE TO CHANGE THINGS.
00:38:54SO IT IS COMFORTING TO SEE A STATE LIKE NEW MEXICO TAKE A
00:38:58REAL PROBLEM OF MASS SURVEILLANCE, AUTOMATE ISOLATE
00:39:00READERS AND TRY TO MAKE SOME PRINCIPLED CHOICES ABOUT WHO
00:39:04GETS ACCESS IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE IN EVERY STATE AND EVERY LOCALITY.
00:39:07IF PEOPLE WILL GET TOGETHER TO SAY, WE WANT TO SHARE FOR THIS,
00:39:10WE'RE OKAY WITH IT BEING USED FOR THESE KIND OF CASES, BUT NOT FOR THESE KIND OF CASES.
00:39:14WE'RE OKAY WITH IT BEING SHARED WITH THESE PEOPLE, BUT NOT THESE PEOPLE.
00:39:17THOSE KINDS OF CHOICES ARE DEMOCRATIC CHOICES. AND I WOULD HOPE THAT MORE
00:39:22LEGISLATORS WOULD MAKE THAT CALL. THERE'S NOTHING STOPPING ANY STATE FROM MAKING THAT
00:39:27DETERMINED ABOUT CHOICE, BECAUSE
00:39:29IT'S REALLY OUR DATA, LIKE THE OF YOUR CAMERAS. WE'RE PAID FOR BY YOUR TAX
00:39:33DOLLARS.
00:39:35THEIR SURVEILLING YOU LIKE 99.9% OF PEOPLE BEING CAPTURED ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE.
00:39:39JUST GOING BACK AND FORTH TO GET COFFEE IN THE MORNING, WHATEVER IT IS.
00:39:42AND SO THE CHOICE OF WHAT TO DO WITH THAT DATA IS OUR CHOICE TO
00:39:46MAKE. WE USUALLY DON'T MAKE THE CHOICE BECAUSE IT HASN'T REALLY BEEN A
00:39:50POLITICAL ISSUE.
00:39:50BUT SOMETIMES SITUATIONS ARISE
00:39:54THAT CREATE A POLITICAL ISSUE. AND MINNEAPOLIS IS ANOTHER
00:39:57EXAMPLE WHERE WE SAW COMMUNITIES RISE UP AGAINST BOTH ACTUAL
00:40:00PHYSICAL LAW ENFORCEMENT, BUT
00:40:03ALSO ONE OF THE GRAVEST SORT OF
00:40:06THREATS OF OF MASS SURVEILLANCE
00:40:08AND PARTICULAR SURVEILLANCE THAT WE'VE EVER SEEN. FOR THE FIRST TIME, AMERICAN
00:40:12HISTORY, WE SAW MOBILE FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY BEING
00:40:16USED ON THE STREET. SO ICE AGENTS, CUSTOM BORDER
00:40:18PATROL AGENTS WERE USING A CELL PHONE TO BE ABLE TO MATCH
00:40:21SOMEONE'S FACE ON THE STREET IS NOT THAT WE DON'T HAVE THAT
00:40:25TECHNOLOGY, BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN USED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT, BECAUSE PEOPLE,
00:40:28I THINK, WOULD PUSH BACK THAT THEY DON'T WANT THIS KIND OF CELL SURVEILLANCE.
00:40:32ICE AGENTS WERE USING LICENSE PLATE READERS TO ESSENTIALLY
00:40:36SHOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRACKING THEM THAT THEY KNEW WHO
00:40:39THEY WERE AND THEIR STORIES IN THE NEWS ABOUT THE ICE AGE WOULD
00:40:43GO UP TO THE PER THE WOMAN WHO WAS TRAILING THEM TO IDENTIFY
00:40:46WHERE THE ICE WAS AND SAY, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE, MRS.
00:40:48WHATEVER HER NAME WAS, JUST HOW DO YOU KNOW MY NAME? SHE GOES, WE JUST RAN YOUR TAGS.
00:40:52WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE. WE KNOW YOU KNOW WHO'S OWNED THIS CAR BEFORE.
00:40:55WE KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT AND THAT KIND OF DATA SET. NOW EXIST THAT WE HAVE WE
00:40:59HAVEN'T SEEN SORT OF USE FOR
00:41:01LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE IN
00:41:03MANY CASES, MOST LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IS RESPONSIVE TO THE
00:41:07CITIZENS IF THEY THINK IT WOULD BE CREEPY TO HAVE CAMERAS
00:41:11EVERYWHERE. AND THEN LPR IS EVERYWHERE, SOMETIMES OUR PUSHBACK IS MAYBE
00:41:14WE DON'T WANT THAT IN OUR COMMUNITY. AND WE'VE SEEN COMMUNITY
00:41:17MOVEMENTS DO THAT. AND ICE WAS ICE.
00:41:21AND MINNEAPOLIS WAS ANOTHER MOMENT WHERE IT KIND OF CRYSTAL
00:41:24ISED ABOUT HOW COMMUNITY IS
00:41:26COULD PUSH BACK ON THIS NEW FORM OF SURVEILLANCE.
00:41:30BUT TO THE SECOND POINT OF THIS IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE ARE
00:41:36ALL THE THE PEOPLE WITH CAMERAS,
00:41:39WHEN WE ARE NOW SURVEILLING OURSELVES AND AGAIN, THE GLASSES
00:41:43AT A RECORDING, YOU KNOW EVERYONE AS YOU GO A RECORDING,
00:41:46EVERYONE IS NOT CHOOSING WHO THEY'RE RECORDING.
00:41:49IT'S RECORDING EVERYONE THAT'S ALSO GOING TO EVISCERATE CERTAIN
00:41:53CONCEPTIONS OF PRIVACY AND MAKE IT MUCH HARDER TO SAY YOU WITH
00:41:56SOME EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY IN A WORLD WHERE YOU WOULD HOPE TO HAVE ANONYMITY WHEN YOU GO OUT
00:42:00TO PROTEST OR WHEN YOU GO OUT JUST TO LIVE YOUR LIFE AGAIN.
00:42:03I THINK IT'S A REALLY AMERICAN
00:42:05THING TO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE
00:42:08WATCHING YOU WHEREVER YOU GO. I THINK WE KIND OF HOPE YOU IT'S
00:42:12A FALSE HOPE THAT WE HAVE THIS LIKE, LIBERTY INTEREST TO LIVE
00:42:15OUR LIVES UNTIL WE SORT OF DO SOMETHING WRONG. THAT MIGHT DRAW ATTENTION.
00:42:19BUT IF WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, THAT WE WOULDN'T BE UNDER
00:42:22CONSTANT SURVEILLANCE. AND THE IDEA THAT THAT HAS
00:42:25CHANGED WHERE NOW JUST BECAUSE WE'VE BUILT THE TECHNOLOGY,
00:42:28WE'RE NOW ABLE TO SURVEIL PEOPLE THAT IT CAN BE USED, I THINK IS
00:42:32PART OF THAT CONVERSATION THAT I'M TRYING TO FOSTER HERE ABOUT
00:42:36LIKE MAYBE THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE DEFAULT AND THE AIM OF
00:42:38YOUR LEGISLATION IN NEW MEXICO IS A STEP TO SAY, WELL, OKAY,
00:42:42MAYBE WE'RE OKAY WITH OUR
00:42:46COMMUNITY USING IT FOR THE USES THAT WE HAVE GIVEN A GREEN LIGHT
00:42:50TO, BUT WE'RE NOT OKAY WITH OTHER STATES USING IT FOR OTHER PURPOSES.
00:42:54AND THERE ARE CERTAIN KINDS OF PROTECTED ACTIVITIES, BE IT FOR
00:42:58YOUR HEALTH OR MAYBE YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTED ACTIVITIES
00:43:02THAT WE REALLY DON'T WANT THIS MISUSED. AND GUESS WHAT? IT'S OUR MONEY.
00:43:06IT'S OUR SURVEILLANCE, IT'S OUR CAMERA SYSTEMS. AND WE SHOULD WE THE PEOPLE
00:43:11SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTROL THAT. AND WE HAVE SORT OF ABDICATED
00:43:13THAT AUTHORITY TO THE COMPANY IS
00:43:18SELLING THE TECHNOLOGIES, THE CHIEFS BUYING THE TECHNOLOGIES, THE CITY COUNCILS LOOKING THE OTHER WAY.
00:43:22I GUARANTEE THAT IN MOST CITIES,
00:43:25IF YOU GO ASK YOUR LOCAL CITY COUNCIL OR YOUR LEGISLATIVE
00:43:29ENTITY LIKE DO YOU KNOW THE SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGY IS BEING
00:43:31USED RIGHT NOW AGAINST YOU AND
00:43:33ALL OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND
00:43:36SAY, YEAH, NOT REALLY, WE REALLY DON'T KNOW.
00:43:38AND THAT'S A MISTAKE.
00:43:40WE HAVE REVERSED THE DEFAULT OF
00:43:43DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY AND THUS WE'RE NOT ABLE TO USE THESE
00:43:47TECHNOLOGIES FOR DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY.
00:43:49ONE LAST POINT IS THAT, AS YOU SAID, THERE WERE ALSO INSTANCES
00:43:54OF WHAT IS, I THINK, PRETTY
00:43:57OBVIOUSLY LAW ENFORCEMENT ABUSE OF POWER IN MANY APPLES WHERE WE
00:44:01SAW PEOPLE HARMED AND KILLED IN
00:44:05WAYS THE EVIDENCE OF THAT WAS
00:44:09CAPTURED SOMETIMES BY CITY, BY CIVILIAN CAMERAS, BUT ALSO WAS
00:44:13IN THE MINNEAPOLIS REAL TIME GROUND, REAL TIME CRIME CENTER.
00:44:17IF THEY WANT TO USE IT. BUT WE DIDN'T SEE NECESSARILY
00:44:19THIS RECOGNITION OF HOW WE CAN
00:44:22USE TECHNOLOGY FOR ACCOUNTABILITY. AND THAT'S ALSO OUR CALL.
00:44:25WE COULD TELL OUR LEGISLATORS, YOU KNOW WHAT, IF YOU'RE
00:44:28WATCHING THE STREETS, IF YOU'RE WATCHING EVERYTHING THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS DOING, AT A
00:44:33MINIMUM, BE ON THE LOOKOUT TO SEE WHEN THEY CROSS THE LINE OR
00:44:36WHEN THERE'S A BAD USE OF FORCE OR WHEN THERE'S A BAD STOP.
00:44:40THERE'S NO REASON WHY THAT ISN'T
00:44:42PART OF THE BARGAIN OF USING TAXED TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO BUY
00:44:46THESE NETWORKS OF SURVEILLANCE. YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT TO
00:44:50REMIND EVERYBODY THAT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH PUTTING LIMITS ON THE USE OF THIS STUFF.
00:44:56SO. WELL, LET'S SEE. IT'S 6:45. SHOULD WE TAKE SOME DOORS?
00:45:00SHOULD WE TAKE SOME AUDIENCE QUESTIONS?
00:45:03YEAH, WE CAN GO HERE, TOO. YES, SIR.
00:45:06WE LIKE TO CALL YOU.
00:45:18SIR. THANKS, ANDREW.
00:45:21QUESTION AS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE DATA THAT THE
00:45:24GOVERNMENT IS COLLECTING AND
00:45:27THEN STORING AND THEN YOU SAID IT'S OUR DATA, WHICH MADE ME
00:45:30WONDER HOW FREEDOM OF
00:45:33INFORMATION ACT OR INSPECTION OF PUBLIC RECORDS ACT HERE IN NEW
00:45:37MEXICO WOULD INTERACT WITH THIS,
00:45:39WHERE CITIZENS CAN ASK THEIR GOVERNMENT FOR GOVERNMENT INFORMATION.
00:45:43AS A PUBLIC DEFENDER, YOU KNOW,
00:45:45THAT INCLUDES POLICE REPORTS, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT THAT
00:45:48ARE GOVERNMENT RECORDS, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE ACCURATE
00:45:52DESCRIPTIONS OF OUR CLIENTS OR OF PEOPLE, BUT HOW DO YOU SEE
00:45:56THIS KIND OF SURVEILLANCE INFORMATION GOING, NOT JUST TO
00:46:00THE GOVERNMENT, BUT HOW DO WE PROTECT THE DISTRIBUTION TO
00:46:04PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT WANT TO USE THAT FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES, WHICH DON'T
00:46:08NECESSARILY HELP THE PEOPLE BEING SURVEILLED? YEAH. SO THERE ARE TWO PARTS TO THAT.
00:46:12SO DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE, YOU MIGHT HAVE PRETTY OPEN PUBLIC
00:46:16RECORDS OR SUNSHINE LAWS THAT
00:46:18MIGHT REVEAL SOME OF THIS
00:46:20PUBLICLY COLLECTED DATA INCLUDE THINGS LIKE VIDEO. SO.
00:46:23SO I'M IN STATES LIKE WASHINGTON STATE HAS A REALLY OPEN PUBLIC RECORD.
00:46:27SO FOR A WHILE A POLICE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE WAS AVAILABLE TO BE FOR IT.
00:46:31AND THEN SOMEONE ACTUALLY DID AND ASKED FOR ALL OF IT, WHICH IS A LITTLE OVERWHELMING FOR
00:46:35SOME JURISDICTIONS. I GUESS IN NEW JERSEY, MAYBE
00:46:38WHERE THEY BASICALLY HAD THE LIVE FEED OF WHAT THEY'RE SEEING
00:46:41JUST AVAILABLE ON YOUTUBE OR THE EQUIVALENT, YOU JUST GO GO
00:46:44ONLINE AND SEE WHAT THE CAMERAS ARE RECORDING IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, WHICH CAN BE
00:46:49PROBLEMATIC, RIGHT? IT MEANS THAT YOU COULD USE THAT DATA FOR NEFARIOUS PURPOSES.
00:46:52IF YOU'RE TRYING TO LIKE, STALK SOMEONE VIRTUALLY, SUDDENLY THE
00:46:56GOVERNMENT HAS PROVIDED AN ABILITY TO DO THAT.
00:47:00IT CAN REVEAL THINGS THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE PRIVATE BECAUSE THEY WERE JUST LIVING THEIR LIFE
00:47:04GOING ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS, AND NOW THEY DIDN'T REALIZE THAT NOT ONLY WAS THIS THE GOVERNMENT
00:47:08COLLECTING THE DATA, BUT NOW THEY WERE LIVE STREAMING INTO THE WORLD. THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD
00:47:11BE HAVING A DEBATE ABOUT. AND IF YOU'RE SITTING THERE THINKING LIKE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT
00:47:15THE RULES ARE IN MY JURISDICTION, LIKE THAT'S THE PROBLEM, RIGHT? WE SHOULD HAVE THIS CONVERSATION
00:47:19BEFOREHAND BECAUSE IT CREATES
00:47:21REAL PROBLEMS OF ACCESS CONTROL,
00:47:25WHO SHOULD GET ACCESS AND GENERALLY THE WAY IT GETS
00:47:27DEFAULTED TO IS THAT MANY OF
00:47:31THESE SYSTEMS OF COLLECTION ARE THOUGHT OF AS POLICE
00:47:35SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGIES, THOSE IN CONTROL OF THE POLICE AND
00:47:39AVAILABLE ONLY THROUGH POLICE MECHANISMS. SO YOU MIGHT HAVE TO DO KIND OF
00:47:42A FOIA FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT, WITH
00:47:45ALL THESE EXCEPTIONS, PROTECTING LAW ENFORCEMENT DATA METHODS AND
00:47:49PRACTICES. THAT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT. SO IT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN VERY
00:47:53SUCCESSFUL IN THAT WAY, AND IT
00:47:55CREATES SOME PROBLEMS, RIGHT? AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A
00:48:00BETTER ANSWER THAT EVERYONE CAN EXPOSE EVERYTHING ELSE AS
00:48:03OPPOSED TO JUST THE GOVERNMENT EXPOSING EVERYTHING ELSE. I THINK THEY'RE BOTH PROBLEMATIC
00:48:06THAT THAT I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE EVERYONE ONE'S
00:48:10LIKE LIVE STREAMING ME ALL THE TIME. AND I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT A
00:48:14WORLD WHERE THE GOVERNMENT'S JUST LIVE STREAMING ME.
00:48:17I WANT A WORLD WHERE WE HAVE
00:48:19MADE SOME HARD CHOICES ABOUT WHEN THAT CAN BE USED, WHO HAS
00:48:22ACCESS, AND MAYBE IF IT'S NOT RELEVANT FOR A CRIMINAL CASE, IT
00:48:26GETS DESTROYED. LIKE THERE'S NO REASON YOU HAVE TO SAVE IT.
00:48:29LIKE SO MANY OF THESE SYSTEMS COULD.
00:48:32A LOT OF THE LONG TERM PROBLEM
00:48:34COULD BE ALLEVIATED IF YOU JUST LIKE DESTROYED THE DATA QUICKLY, RIGHT.
00:48:38IF THERE IF YOU ARE THINKING YOU NEED A LPR BECAUSE YOU'RE
00:48:41SOLVING A CASE AND YOU HAVEN'T NEEDED IT AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT
00:48:45OF TIME, LIKE WHY ARE YOU KEEPING IT?
00:48:48LIKE, WHAT'S THE JUSTIFICATION? IF YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY IT, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE
00:48:52IT HERE IN SANTA FE COUNTY.
00:48:54THERE, AS I'M SURE A LOT OF YOU KNOW, THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
00:48:59SUGGESTED CONTRACTING WITH A FACIAL RECOGNITION SYSTEM.
00:49:02AND THERE WAS SOME SOME PUSHBACK
00:49:04FROM THE THE COUNTY COMMISSION.
00:49:06I THINK THEY HAVEN'T MADE A DECISION YET, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT
00:49:09TO NOTICE THAT EVEN IF YOU GO TO
00:49:12YOUR POINT ABOUT THESE THINGS ARE UNDER DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF
00:49:16THE PROCUREMENT AND THE CONTRACTS ARE ALSO UNDER DEMOCRATIC CONTROL.
00:49:20SO EVEN IF WE DECIDE THAT, YEAH, WE REALLY WANT FACIAL
00:49:23RECOGNITION, WE, WE REALLY THINK WILL HELP US CATCH BAD GUYS, WE
00:49:26CAN STILL SAY, FOR INSTANCE, WE WANT THERE EVERY TIME THE
00:49:30SHERIFF'S OFFICE USES THAT SYSTEM, WE WANT THAT USAGE TO BE
00:49:34LOGGED. IF YOU KNOW, RATHER THAN SAYING,
00:49:37YOU KNOW, THE WE CAUGHT YOU ON ON THE CAMERA, IF THE ACTUAL
00:49:41TRUTH IS, WELL, WE HANDED A
00:49:43BLURRY PHOTO TO THIS BIG
00:49:45DATABASE AND IT RETURNED 20
00:49:47POSSIBLE MATCHES AND YOU WERE NUMBER SIX OUT OF 20.
00:49:51WELL, THAT'S A MORE NUANCED FACT.
00:49:54WE'VE BEEN POISONED A LITTLE BIT
00:49:56BY TV AND SHOWS LIKE CSI BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS LIKE, OH, THE DNA IS
00:49:59A MATCH. THE FACIAL RECOGNITION IS A MATCH.
00:50:02AND THE REALITY IS THESE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY A LOT FUZZIER THAN THAT.
00:50:05EVEN DNA IS FUZZIER THAN THAT IN MANY CASES.
00:50:09AND SO HAVING THAT SKEPTICISM
00:50:11AND ALSO HAVING A A LOG, WHICH
00:50:15THE PUBLIC CAN ACCESS TO SEE WHEN ARE YOU USING THIS?
00:50:19WHAT BLURRY PHOTO DID YOU SAY TO WHICH SOFTWARE DID YOU USE?
00:50:22ARE THERE KNOWN FLAWS IN THAT SOFTWARE?
00:50:25ARE THERE ANY INDEPENDENT PEER REVIEWED STUDIES THAT THIS THING
00:50:30WORKS? YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I THINK
00:50:32A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT THESE TECHNOLOGIES ARE
00:50:36BEING ROLLED OUT SO QUICKLY THAT
00:50:40IN MANY CASES THERE HAVE BEEN NO INDEPENDENT STUDIES THAT THEY'RE
00:50:44ACCURATE AND FAIR. AND, YOU KNOW, WE WOULDN'T DO THAT WITH SOFTWARE THAT'S
00:50:47RUNNING AN AUTOPILOT ON AUTOPILOT IN AN AIRPLANE.
00:50:51WE WOULDN'T DO THAT WITH SOFTWARE RUNNING A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.
00:50:53BUT FOR SOME REASON, WE'RE DOING IT WITH SOFTWARE THAT AFFECTS
00:50:58PEOPLE'S LIVES AND LIBERTIES. AND JUST A FINER POINT ON THAT,
00:51:00LIKE THE CHOICES THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED ABOUT.
00:51:02SO HOW MANY MATCHES IN A FACIAL RECOGNITION? WHAT'S YOUR LEVEL OF CERTAINTY
00:51:06BEFORE YOU CONSIDER SOMETHING A MATCH? WHAT HAPPENS THAT?
00:51:09DID YOU GIVE THE OTHER SIX MATCHES THAT WERE OF A HIGHER
00:51:13CERTAINTY BUT NOT THE PERSON YOU THINK WERE INVOLVED TO THE DEFENSE AS PART OF YOUR
00:51:17OBLIGATIONS UNDER LIKE BRADY VERSUS MARYLAND AND OTHER EXCULPATORY INFORMATION?
00:51:20THOSE ARE ALL CHOICES THAT ARE CURRENTLY BEING DECIDED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.
00:51:25THEY THEY JUST MAKE A POLICY. IT'S NOT THE LEGISLATURE
00:51:27NECESSARILY DECIDING IT SHOULD BE IT. IT'S NOT EVEN WITH DEMOCRATIC
00:51:31AGREEMENT. AND THEY DIFFER ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.
00:51:34DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS HAVE DIFFERENT RULES AND DIFFERENT RULES. SETS.
00:51:37AND THAT SORT OF A WORLD IS NOT
00:51:40NECESSARILY A WAY THAT YOU CAN
00:51:42FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THIS IS THE BEST THERE SHOULD BE.
00:51:45AGAIN, A PROBABLY DEMOCRATICALLY
00:51:48ACCOUNTABLE RULE ABOUT WHEN YOU USE IT, HOW YOU USE IT, AND IT
00:51:51MIGHT BE THE CASE THAT WE'RE OKAY WITH THAT USE, EVEN THOUGH
00:51:55IT'S KIND OF SCARY, THAT FACIAL RECOGNITION, IF YOU'RE FOLLOWING
00:51:58THE PROCESS, IS THE WAY WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DESIGNED. BUT RIGHT NOW WE CAN'T REALLY
00:52:02HAVE CONFIDENCE BECAUSE IT'S ALL LOCALIZED. WE DON'T KNOW IT DEPENDS ON
00:52:06WHICH JURISDICTION YOU'RE LOOKING AT AT THE TIME. I ACTUALLY HAVE A QUESTION
00:52:11MYSELF THAT TIES INTO BOTH OF WHAT YOU'VE BOTH BEEN SAYING.
00:52:15TECHNOLOGY IS MOVING QUICKLY, AS
00:52:17CHRIS, YOU JUST MENTIONED, EARLY
00:52:19ADOPTER ADOPTER OF THAT TECHNOLOGY IS MOVING JUST AS
00:52:24QUICKLY, BUT THE LAW MOVES SO SLOWLY.
00:52:26AND SO I'M CURIOUS HOW WE WE GET
00:52:28THE LAW TO BE PROACTIVE INSTEAD OF REACTIVE.
00:52:32LIKE HOW ARE WE NOT THINKING
00:52:34AHEAD JUST AS MUCH AS THE TECHNOLOGISTS ARE THINKING AHEAD
00:52:37OF WHAT WE CAN DO WITH ALL THIS SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGY?
00:52:41THE LAW IS LIKE ALREADY TEN YEARS BEHIND IT.
00:52:44SO HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD?
00:52:46HOW DO WE PUSH FOR THE LAW TO
00:52:49CATCH UP WITH THE TECHNOLOGY? JUST CATCH UP, LET ALONE BE
00:52:53PROACTIVE IN IT? I THINK THE FIRST THING IS DO YOU WRITE A BESTSELLING BOOK THAT EVERYONE GIVES THEIR
00:52:57FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND YOU BUY IT AT A LOCAL BOOKSTORE? BUT SO IT'S INTERESTING.
00:53:01I THINK THE POINT IS VERY REAL, RIGHT? SO WHEN I TEACH CRIME PROCEDURE
00:53:05AND I TEACH THE BASIS OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND THE
00:53:08BASICS OF THE BASICS, ALL THIS REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
00:53:11COMES FROM A PARTICULAR CASE CALLED UNITED STATES VERSUS KATZ.
00:53:14IT'S FROM 1967 AND INVOLVES A PAYPHONE. SO IF YOU'RE OLD ENOUGH TO
00:53:19REMEMBER WHAT A PAYPHONE I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO MY STUDENTS WHAT A PAYPHONE IS. SO YOU ACTUALLY WOULD PUT A
00:53:22QUARTER IN OR A NICKEL IN AND BE ABLE TO CALL SOMEONE IN THIS
00:53:25CASE THAT CONTROLS WHETHER THERE
00:53:27ARE CAMERA SYSTEM IS AROUND OUR
00:53:29COUNTRY OR AROUND OUR CITY CENSORS LISTENING IN WHERE WE ARE.
00:53:33ALL OF THOSE RULES STEMS FROM A CASE INVOLVING A PAYPHONE WHERE
00:53:37THE FBI PUT A REEL TO REEL TAPE RECORDER. ALSO HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT ONE ON
00:53:41A PAYPHONE RAN UP THERE.
00:53:43PRESS PLAY SO THEY COULD RECORD TROLLEY CARS, MAKING BIG
00:53:47GAMBLING BETS ACROSS STATE LINES THAT WE'RE USING TO PROSECUTE
00:53:51THAT CASE. THAT DEFINES OUR FOURTH OF OUR FREEDOMS, OUR EXPECTATIONS OF
00:53:55PRIVACY HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED,
00:53:57AND MOST OF THE CASES I TEACH
00:53:59ACROSS PROCEDURE INVOLVE LIKE IN A LOG TECHNOLOGY, TRULY
00:54:03PRE-DIGITAL WORLD FROM THE 60S TO THE 90. BEFORE WE GET THERE.
00:54:07AND YET THOSE SAME PRECEDENTS, ONE OF THE UNITED STATES SUPREME
00:54:10COURT WAS DEBATING A GEOFENCE
00:54:12WARRANT, BASICALLY BEING ABLE TO TAKE ALL OF THE CELL PHONE AND A
00:54:16PARTICULAR AREA. RIGHT NOW, GOOGLE, IF THEY WERE STILL DOING THIS OR NOT, DO
00:54:19ANYMORE, THEY COULD LITERALLY HAVE DONE DRAWN A GEOFENCE AROUND THIS BOOKSTORE AND FOUND
00:54:23ALL OF YOUR PHONES AND IDENTIFY
00:54:25ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE AT THIS TALK.
00:54:29THE ARGUMENT BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT TWO AND A HALF WEEKS AGO
00:54:33ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THIS GEOFENCE WARRANT VIOLATED THE
00:54:36FOURTH AMENDMENT WAS BASED ON DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE SAME CASE
00:54:40INVOLVING A PAYPHONE IN THE LATE 1960S.
00:54:42THAT IS SLOW, RIGHT?
00:54:44THAT MEANS WE HAVE NOT UPDATED THE QUESTION OF WHY.
00:54:48IT'S BECAUSE LAW MOVES SLOWLY,
00:54:50THAT IT TAKES A WHILE TO TO DECIDE THIS.
00:54:53AND EVEN IF THE SUPREME COURT DECIDES THIS CASE INVOLVING A
00:54:57GEOFENCE. STRANGELY ENOUGH, GOOGLE HAS DECIDED NOT TO DO GEOFENCE IS IN
00:55:00THE SAME WAY ANYMORE. THEY NOW LOCALIZE ON YOUR PHONE, REQUIRE A WARRANT FOR YOUR
00:55:04PHONE. AND SO EVEN IF THEY DECIDE THIS CASE, IT'S ALREADY OBSOLETE
00:55:08BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY HAS MOVED AHEAD.
00:55:10AND THAT'S BEEN THE NATURE OF THIS. EVERY TIME THERE IS A CASE BEING
00:55:14DECIDED THAT TECHNOLOGY HAS
00:55:15MOVED A PACE MUCH FASTER, YOUR
00:55:19POINT IS, OF COURSE, THAT IS
00:55:21THERE A BODY OF POWER THAT'S
00:55:25RESPONSIVE AND CLOSER TO REAL TIME? AND THE ANSWER IS USUALLY NOT
00:55:28JUDGES, IT'S LEGISLATORS AND LEGISLATORS CAN RESPOND.
00:55:31NOW, WE'VE ALSO SEEN FOR THE
00:55:34MOST AT MOST CASES, THEM ALSO TAKING A SLOW APPROACH.
00:55:36AND THE TECHNOLOGY NOT NECESSARILY MEETING THE MOMENT, BUT WE DO HAVE THAT ABILITY.
00:55:40WE DO HAVE THE ABILITY TO
00:55:44PROACTIVELY SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT,
00:55:47BEFORE WE PAY TAXPAYER MONEY TO
00:55:49PUT ANOTHER A.I. SYSTEM ON THE
00:55:53STREETS, WE WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN
00:55:55HOW IT'S GOING TO WORK, THAT IT
00:55:57DOES WORK. WE WANT YOU TO COME BACK TO US
00:56:00AND SHOW THAT IT DID WORK. AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
00:56:04YOU'VE TAKEN CERTAIN PRIVACY PROTECTIONS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IS GOING TO AFFECT ORDINARY
00:56:10CITIZENS. THE VAST MAJORITY OF MASS SURVEILLANCE IS ABOUT TRULY
00:56:14INNOCENT PEOPLE JUST GOING ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN CRIME.
00:56:18AND THE WHOLE REASON WHY WE'VE ACCEPTED IS FOR THE ONE MOMENT WHERE THE POLICE MIGHT NEED THAT
00:56:23FOOTAGE. THEY COLLECT IT ALL, THEY COLLECT ALL THE HAY FOR THE ONE,
00:56:26YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, NEEDLE IN THE HAYSTACK.
00:56:29AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING INVERSION. AND SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER IT'S WORTH SPENDING MILLIONS, IF NOT
00:56:33BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON
00:56:35TECHNOLOGY FOR THOSE CASES. MAY WE DECIDE IT IS.
00:56:38MAYBE WE DECIDE IT ISN'T. BUT WE SHOULD BE HAVING THOSE
00:56:41DEBATES BEFORE WE SIGN THE CHECK FOR THE PROCUREMENT TO BUY THE
00:56:45NEXT TECHNOLOGY.
00:56:49I'M WONDERING IF YOU CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT NATIONAL
00:56:53SECURITY IMPLICATIONS AND THE ROLE THESE THIS MASSIVE AMOUNT
00:56:56OF HIGHLY SENSITIVE PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT'S HELD BY BOTH
00:57:00CORPORATE ACTORS AND GOVERNMENT ACTORS.
00:57:04WHAT WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN A NATIONAL SECURITY LANDSCAPE
00:57:07AND WHAT ROLE DOES OR WILL THIS INFORMATION BE PLAYING IN
00:57:11WARFARE MOVING FORWARD? OH, A COUPLE OF INTERESTING
00:57:15QUESTIONS THERE. SO, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS AGO, EVEN I MIGHT HAVE SAID, WELL,
00:57:19THOSE ARE VERY DIFFERENT SORT OF
00:57:21SPHERES, NATIONAL SECURITY AND
00:57:23WHAT THE RULES ARE FOR NON-U.S. CITIZENS TRYING TO DEAL WITH
00:57:27THREATS TO AMERICA, HAVE A WHOLE
00:57:28DIFFERENT RULES SET THAN LOCAL
00:57:34POLICING AND WHO MIGHT BE TARGETED BY EVEN THE FBI IN THAT
00:57:37WAY, BECAUSE THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY A SEPARATION.
00:57:41WE'VE SEEN NEWS REPORTS OF SOME OF THESE A.I. COMPANIES WORRIED
00:57:44THAT THEIR TECHNOLOGIES WILL BE USED FOR MASS SURVEILLANCE THAT MIGHT IMPACT THE FOURTH
00:57:48AMENDMENT. SO I'M ACTUALLY CLEAR WHAT THAT FEAR IS.
00:57:51IT WAS ARTICULATED BUT NOT EXPLAINED.
00:57:54BUT I THINK THAT THE SENSE WOULD BE THAT SOMETIMES THOSE LINES
00:57:57THAT HAVE STOOD FOR A WHILE MIGHT BE GETTING BLURRED.
00:58:01AND THE CONCERN WOULD BE THAT IF YOU DESIGNATED, LET'S SAY, A
00:58:05GROUP OF PEOPLE PROTESTING ICE OR CUSTOMS BORDER PATROL AS A
00:58:09NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT, WELL THEN SUDDENLY ALL OF THOSE RULES
00:58:12THAT WERE MEANT TO ALLOW US TO
00:58:14PROTECT THE NATION AGAINST OUTSIDER THREATS MIGHT BE
00:58:18REDIRECT IT TO INTERNAL THREATS, AND YOU MIGHT HAVE LOOSELY
00:58:20DEFINED GROUPS LIKE ANTIFA OR WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE DEFINED
00:58:25OR OTHER KINDS OF PROTEST GROUPS
00:58:28THAT COULD BE RE DESIGNATED AS
00:58:31NATIONAL SECURITY. AND ONCE YOU INVOKE THAT TERM, IT KIND OF BLURS THE LINE THAT
00:58:36HAD BEEN A LINE THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED ME TO SAY, WELL, THOSE
00:58:39ARE REALLY DIFFERENT PROBLEMS. THE BOOK IS MORE FOCUSED ON LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND
00:58:44POLICING, WHICH HAS ITS OWN VERY REAL CONCERNS AND DOESN'T DELVE
00:58:48INTO SOME OF THOSE NATIONAL SECURITY CONTEXT. BUT JUST TO BE RESPECTFUL TO
00:58:51YOUR QUESTION, I DO THINK THAT THOSE LINES ARE BEING BLURRED
00:58:57MORE OR POTENTIALLY BLURRED,
00:58:59MORE THAN I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT JUST EVEN A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.
00:59:03AND OF COURSE, MANY OF THE SAME COMPANIES ARE INVOLVED AND WOULD
00:59:06BE VERY HAPPY TO FUZE, THE
00:59:09VARIOUS DATABASES FROM EVERYTHING FROM LOCAL LAW
00:59:12ENFORCEMENT TO NATIONAL SECURITY. IF YOU KNOW THAT THAT KIND OF
00:59:17FUSION IS ONE OF THEIR MAIN GOALS.
00:59:21THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND I HAVEN'T READ YOUR BOOK YET
00:59:25AND THIS IS MY THOUGHTS ARE A LITTLE SCATTERED AT THIS POINT.
00:59:29BUT IT MIGHT BE A BASIC
00:59:30QUESTION, BUT WHEN YOU SAY YOUR
00:59:33DATA, MY DATA MAYBE.
00:59:37AND I THINK THE GENTLEMAN WITH THE FIRST QUESTION TOUCHED ON
00:59:40THIS AND YOU HAVE AS WELL.
00:59:43IT'S IT'S MY DATA IN WHAT SENSE?
00:59:46IN SOME SENSE. BUT IN ANOTHER SENSE, IT'S NOT
00:59:49MY DATA BECAUSE I'VE GIVEN AWAY
00:59:54AT LEAST SOME RIGHTS TO IT.
00:59:57SO SO THAT'S AN INSIGHTFUL POINT.
01:00:00AND ALSO, IF I MAY, IT SEEMS TO
01:00:04ME THAT IF WE TAKE THIS THIS TO
01:00:08THE LIMIT AND WE'RE TALKING
01:00:11ABOUT A KIND OF OMNISCIENCE, BUT
01:00:14MAYBE MAYBE IT'S A ONE SIDED
01:00:17OMNISCIENCE WHERE THE THIS DATA IS, IS, YOU KNOW, ON THE PART OF
01:00:21THOSE WHO ACCESS IT AND WHAT'S THEIR INTEREST IN IT.
01:00:25SO AND THEN JUST A QUESTION AND
01:00:28MAYBE THIS IS IN YOUR BOOK ALREADY, BUT IS ONE POSSIBLE
01:00:33SOLUTION SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, AN END TO END ENCRYPTION BASED ON
01:00:38THE PURPOSE OF FOR WHICH THE DATA IS COLLECTED?
01:00:40YOU KNOW, IF MY FRIDGE IS KNOWS
01:00:44IF I'M OUT OF MILK OR NOT AND CAN ORDERED FOR ME, BUT IT CAN
01:00:48ALSO YOU KNOW THROUGH AN AD
01:00:51NETWORK SUGGEST THAT MAYBE I BUY SOME YOU KNOW MORE SHELF STABLE
01:00:56MILK THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE REFRIGERATED OR BOUGHT AS OFTEN.
01:00:59I MEAN IS THAT WHAT'S MY RIGHT
01:01:01TO BE INFORMED OF THE PURPOSE OF THE OF THE DATA COLLECTION.
01:01:05SO IT'S A GREAT INSIGHTFUL POINT
01:01:07BECAUSE MUCH OF THE REASON WHY WE ARE IN A WORLD WHERE OUR DATA
01:01:11CAN BE USED AGAINST US IS THIS IDEA OF WE HAVE GIVEN IT TO A THIRD PARTY.
01:01:15THERE'S A WHOLE DOCTRINE IN THE FOURTH AMENDMENT CALLED THE THIRD PARTY DOCTRINE THAT
01:01:19ESSENTIALLY SAYS IF YOU GIVE YOUR DATA TO GOOGLE, HOW CAN YOU CLAIM ANY EXPECTATION OF
01:01:23PRIVACY? AND I GUESS COMPLICATED IN A
01:01:26DIGITAL AGE, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR OWN SERVER
01:01:29AND, YOU KNOW, FOR EMAIL AND
01:01:31UNLESS YOU HAVE BUILT YOUR OWN WI FI SYSTEM LIKE YOU ARE
01:01:34DEPENDENT ON A THIRD PARTY TO DO EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING ON YOUR
01:01:38PHONE, YOUR COMPUTER, EVERY DIGITAL MOBILE PAYMENT, EVERY
01:01:42GOOGLE SEARCH, OF COURSE,
01:01:43INVOLVES A THIRD PARTY SO THAT
01:01:46CONCEPT WAS SORT OF BUILT IN AN ANALOG WORLD THAT DIDN'T REALLY
01:01:50RECOGNIZE THAT WE WILL ALWAYS BE DEPENDENT ON SOME THIRD PARTIES.
01:01:52AND EVEN TO THIS DAY, THE SUPREME COURT IS QUESTIONING WHETHER THE THIRD PARTY DOCTRINE
01:01:56REALLY MEANS WHAT IT SAYS. THERE IS A CASE A COUPLE OF
01:01:59YEARS AGO CALLED CARPENTER VERSUS THE UNITED STATES, WHICH
01:02:01INVOLVED YOURSELF, SITE, LOCATION, DATA AND WHETHER OR NOT THE POLICE NEED A WARRANT TO
01:02:05TRACK YOUR CELL PHONE FOR SEVEN DAYS. AND THE SUPREME COURT SAID YOU
01:02:09DID. AND THEY SAID, WHY? BECAUSE THIS DATA, EVEN THOUGH
01:02:12YOU KIND OF KNOW THAT IN ORDER FOR YOUR CELL PHONE TO WORK, IT
01:02:15HAS TO BE CONNECTED TO A CELL PHONE PROVIDER THAT EVEN THOUGH
01:02:18YOU DID GO TO THAT THIRD PARTY
01:02:20THAT DID NOT EXTINGUISH YOUR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND THE
01:02:24POLICE STILL NEEDED A WARRANT TO GET ACCESS TO IT. NOW TO THE SECOND PART OF IT, TO
01:02:28SAY LIKE COULDN'T THERE BE TECHNOLOGICAL TO THIS?
01:02:31AND THE ANSWER IS YES. AND WE SOMETIMES SEE THAT ENCRYPTION IS ONE WHICH YOU
01:02:35MENTIONED, BUT ALSO LOCALLY USING DATA.
01:02:37SOMETIMES COMPANIES LIKE APPLE USE A FACIAL RECOGNITION MATCH,
01:02:41WHICH YOU MIGHT THINK IS SCARY EXCEPT THE FACIAL RECOGNITION NEVER LEAVES YOUR PHONE.
01:02:45SO IT'S NOT THAT THE POLICE COULDN'T GET ACCESS TO YOUR FACE
01:02:48ON YOUR PHONE, BUT THEY'D HAVE TO GET IT THROUGH YOU AND THEN THEY HAVE YOU IN YOUR FACE.
01:02:52SO MAYBE THEY DON'T NEED THAT. AND SO YOU COULD MAKE TECHNICAL
01:02:56CHOICES ABOUT WHERE YOU STORE
01:02:58DATA, HOW LONG IT'S COLLECTED
01:03:00FOR WHEN IT DISAPPEARS, AND AS YOU SAID, ENCRYPTION.
01:03:04THE PROBLEM WAS THAT MANY TECH COMPANIES, WHEN THEY SORT OF
01:03:07BEGAN THIS PROCESS OF BUILDING THESE VERY SEDUCTIVE, SMART
01:03:12DEVICES, THEIR ULTERIOR MOTIVE WAS TO COLLECT THIS DATA, TO BE
01:03:15ABLE TO SELL YOU OTHER THINGS. RIGHT? YOUR DATA WAS A VALUE.
01:03:19THE REASON WHY YOU GET ALL THOSE FREE APPS ON YOUR PHONE IS
01:03:21BECAUSE THEY WERE ACTUALLY COLLECTING DATA ABOUT WHERE YOUR PHONE WAS GOING.
01:03:24THEY GAVE YOU THE FLASHLIGHT FOR FREE. THAT WAS COOL. I HAVE A FLASH ON MY PHONE.
01:03:28OH, I DIDN'T KNOW. IS TRACKING ME EVERYWHERE I WENT. AND THAT'S THE POINT.
01:03:32LIKE IF THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO SELL YOUR DATA FOR THE PHONE,
01:03:36LIKE THEN THEY GOT NOTHING, RIGHT. THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS PLAN. AND THAT IS ACTUALLY BEEN PART
01:03:39OF THE PROBLEM WAS THAT WE BUILT THESE SYSTEMS THINKING WE COULD
01:03:42MONETIZE PERSONAL DATA, NOT
01:03:45REALIZING HOW THAT PERSONAL DATA
01:03:47COULD ALSO BE USED AGAINST US IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
01:03:50AND NOW COMPANIES HAVE RESPONDED TO THAT, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM, OF COURSE.
01:03:53AND YOU CAN MAKE THAT CHOICE. YOU CAN LOOK AT WHETHER YOU WANT
01:03:57A MORE PRIVACY PROTECTIVE PHONE. YOU CAN CHOOSE THE SETTINGS
01:04:01ABOUT WHETHER YOU SHARE LOCATION DATA OR NOT.
01:04:04YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, NOT HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOUR CAMERA SYSTEM RECORD
01:04:08ALL YOUR CAMERA. MAYBE YOU DON'T NEED TO KEEP IT ALL THE TIME. THOSE ARE CHOICES THAT PEOPLE
01:04:11CAN MAKE. BUT I THINK THAT SO I, I HAVE A
01:04:15LIBERTARIAN STREAK AND I THINK
01:04:18THAT MY DATA IS VALUABLE. AND IF I WANT TO SELL IT TO
01:04:21SOMEONE AND GET SOMETHING IN RETURN, I THINK I SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT.
01:04:25BUT I SHOULD KNOW WHEN I'M DOING THAT. SO, FOR INSTANCE, IF I DOWNLOAD
01:04:29AN APP AND IT SAYS, HEY, YOU CAN
01:04:31HAVE THIS APP FOR $5 A MONTH AND
01:04:33WE WON'T SHARE ANYTHING, OR YOU
01:04:35CAN HAVE IT FOR FREE AND YOU GIVE US THE RIGHT TO SELL YOUR STUFF, TO SELL YOUR DATA.
01:04:41WELL, I PERSONALLY AM OKAY WITH THAT.
01:04:43I WOULD BE NERVOUS IF IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I NEEDED FOR MY
01:04:47LIFE, FOR MY HEALTH AND IF IT WAS $50 A MONTH INSTEAD OF FIVE,
01:04:51AND IF IT WAS A NECESSITY RATHER THAN A LUXURY THAT COULD GET
01:04:54REALLY DANGEROUS FAST. BUT TO A LARGE EXTENT, YOU KNOW,
01:04:58IT'S LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M I'M IN THE WALLED GARDEN OF
01:05:02APPLE AND MY PHONE SAYS, HEY, THIS APP WANTS TO DO THIS AND
01:05:05SUCH AND I'M LIKE, NO, BUT ON A
01:05:09LOT OF OTHER PHONES AND A LOT OF OTHER TECHNOLOGIES, WHEN YOU FIRST DOWNLOADED, THE DEFAULTS
01:05:13WERE SET SO THAT IT DOES GET TO SHARE EVERYTHING AND YOU HAVE TO
01:05:17DIG THROUGH SIX LAYERS OF THE SYSTEM MENU TO TO OPT OUT IN THE
01:05:21LEGISLATURE HERE. THERE WERE TWO DATA PRIVACY
01:05:24BILLS OFFERED A WEEK, ONE WHICH I DIDN'T LIKE, AND A STRONG ONE
01:05:27WHICH I DID LIKE THE STRONG ONE SAID, YOU HAVE TO, YOU SHOULD
01:05:31HAVE TO ACTIVELY OPT INTO SAYING, YES, YOU CAN SHARE AND
01:05:34IT SHOULD BE THERE, RIGHT THERE ON THE FRONT OF THE PHONE. RIGHT.
01:05:38SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO DIG. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A TECHIE
01:05:40TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THESE CHOICES.
01:05:44THE INDUSTRY FOUGHT THE STRONG ONE PRETTY HARD BECAUSE THEY
01:05:48WANT YOU TO HAVE TO DIG DOWN IT. THAT THEY WANT TO SAY, OH, IT'S OKAY, YOU HAVE THE OPTION.
01:05:51YEAH, BUT LET'S BE HONEST. YOU KNOW, WE GET THE 20 PAGE
01:05:54USER AGREEMENT. WE WANT TO START USING THE THING.
01:05:57WE SAY, OKAY, I DON'T READ THOSE THINGS. WHO DOES?
01:06:00AND YET YOU JUST SIGNED A CONTRACT BY DOING THAT.
01:06:04SO WE NEED TO BRING THESE THINGS MORE TO THE SURFACE. WE'RE MAKING MORE CONSCIOUS
01:06:08CHOICES ABOUT THEM. GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
01:06:11THIS HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLE INTRODUCTION TO A THOUGHT
01:06:16PROCESS THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE
01:06:18NEVER GIVEN ENOUGH TIME TO. AND I THINK I SHARE THAT THOUGHT.
01:06:22AND EQUALLY, YOU ARE GIVING US
01:06:24TOOLS TO BEGIN TO LEARN HOW TO
01:06:28TAKE CHARGE OF OUR OWN DATA.
01:06:30I MUST SAY, AS AN INDEPENDENT
01:06:32BOOKSTORE OWNER, ANDREW HAS MADE THE BEAUTIFUL POINT THAT IF YOU
01:06:37COME TO AN INDEPENDENT BOOKSTORE
01:06:40FOR YOUR PRESUMPTION OF
01:06:43INNOCENCE COMES WITH YOU AND YOU
01:06:47ARE NOT RECORDED AS TO WHAT YOU
01:06:49ARE BUYING OR CONSIDERING
01:06:52BUYING, AND WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO
01:06:54VISIT NOT ONLY COLLECTED WORKS,
01:06:58BUT ONE OF THE ONE OF THE OTHER
01:07:0017 INDEPENDENT BOOKSTORES IS IN
01:07:02THIS GREAT CITY. WE DO NOT STOCK --, BUT ANYBODY
01:07:06WHO IS LOOKING FOR ANYTHING
01:07:09OTHER THAN -- IS WELCOME TO
01:07:11BROWSE OUR SHELVES AT WILL.
01:07:15AND WITHOUT ANYBODY LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER.
01:07:17GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION.
01:07:20I KNOW THERE ARE MORE QUESTIONS. THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING.
01:07:24THANK YOU.
01:07:30FOR. YOUR WATCHING.
01:07:34C-SPAN THREE DEMOCRACY UNFILTERED.
01:07:40C-SPAN BRINGS YOU DEMOCRACY
01:07:42UNFILTERED IN REAL TIME. DEMOCRACY DOESN'T TAKE SIDES.
01:07:46NEITHER DOES C-SPAN. IN A WORLD FULL OF OPINIONS.
01:07:49C-SPAN GIVES YOU DIRECT ACCESS
01:07:51TO THE PEOPLE AND INSTITUTE TIONS THAT SHAPE OUR NATION
01:07:55UNFILTERED COVERAGE OF CONGRESS AS LAWS ARE DEBATED AND DECIDED
01:07:59LIVE PROCEEDINGS FROM THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.
01:08:02PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHES, BRIEFINGS, AND HISTORIC MOMENTS
01:08:05AS THEY HAPPEN. NO COMMENTARY, NO SPIN, NO AGENDA.
01:08:09JUST THE DEMOCRAT PROCESS PRESENTED IN FULL WITHOUT
01:08:13INTERRUPTION. SO YOU CAN WATCH THE DEBATES,
01:08:15HEAR EVERY WORD, AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.
01:08:19C-SPAN IS RESPECTED NON-PRO IFIT
01:08:22SERVICE HAS OFFERED AMERICANS UNFILTERED GAVEL TO GAVEL
01:08:26COVERAGE OF THEIR GOVERNMENT IN ACTION. C-SPAN IS BRINGING YOU DEMOCRACY
01:08:31UNFILTERED AND C-SPAN IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE CABLE, SATELLITE
01:08:34AND STREAMING COMPANIES THAT PROVIDE C-SPAN AS A PUBLIC
01:08:39SERVICE. DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL OF C-SPAN'S BOOK TV PROGRAMS ARE
01:08:43AVAILABLE TO WATCH ONLINE? GO TO BOOK TV DOT ORG AND TYPE
01:08:47YOUR FAVORITE AUTHOR OR TOPIC OF INTEREST IN THE SEARCH BOX.
01:08:50THOUSANDS OF OTHER PROGRAMS FROM
01:08:52THE PAST 20 YEARS ALL AVAILABLE
01:08:55ONLINE AT BOOK TV DOT ORG.
01:08:58OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO GET