Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00AND A VERY LOVELY PORTRAIT BY
00:00:03DICKENS FOR DUPONT. ONE OF THE ARTISTS THAT WE SHARE
00:00:06IN COMMON IN OUR MUTUAL
00:00:08COLLECTIONS AND THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS SEMI
00:00:12QUINCENTENNIAL YEAR WILL BE HAVING A PROGRAM OF SOCIAL MEDIA
00:00:14ON YOUR CHANNELS AND ON OUR CHANNELS, SHARING SOME OF THESE
00:00:18STORIES, SHARING MORE OF THESE WORKS AND INTRODUCING EACH
00:00:21OTHER'S VIEWERS, FOLLOWERS TO THE COLLECTION OF THESE TWO.
00:00:24GREAT MAGNIFY SAINT STORIED
00:00:28HOMES OR IN YOUR CASE, MULTIPLE HOMES. IN OUR CASE, ONE HOME.
00:00:32BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A WONDERFUL PARTNERSHIP THAT WE HAVE.
00:00:35AND I'M SO GRATEFUL FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION WITH US ON THIS.
00:00:38REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS YEAR. GREAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT'S BEEN SPECTACULAR TO HAVE
00:00:42YOU TALK WITH US TODAY AND UNPACK THESE STORIES ABOUT THE
00:00:46ROYAL COLLECTION AND THE ROYAL COLLECTION TRUST AND HOW YOU
00:00:49CARE FOR THESE MAGNIFICENT WORKS OF ART. THE REPRESENT THREE AND A HALF
00:00:54CENTURIES OF COLLECTING HERE AND THE ROYAL COLLECTION.
00:00:57AND IT'S JUST A VERY SPECIAL PRIVILEGE TO BE HERE.
00:01:01IT'S A PLEASURE, SIR. THANK YOU SO MUCH.
00:01:03THANK YOU.
00:01:09C-SPAN'S AMERICA 250 COVERAGE IS
00:01:12SUPPORTED BY YOUTUBE.
00:01:19TONIGHT. WE'RE HERE TO CELEBRATE THE RELEASE OF JESSE WEGMAN'S NEW
00:01:23BOOK, THE LOST FOUNDER AND YOU
00:01:26KNOW WHAT BOB DYLAN SAYS WE LIVE
00:01:28IN A POLITICAL WORLD, BUT WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF THAT POWER
00:01:32AND WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?
00:01:33THAT QUESTION IS NOT ONLY AT THE
00:01:36HEART OF JESSE'S BOOK, BUT THE
00:01:38HEART OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
00:01:40IN THE LAST FOUNDER, WAGMAN
00:01:42RECOVERS THE REMARKABLE STORY OF
00:01:44JAMES WILSON, A REVOLUTIONARY THINKER WHO ARGUED THAT
00:01:48GOVERNMENT DERIVES ITS
00:01:50LEGITIMACY NOT FROM KINGS, NOT
00:01:53FROM STATES, AND NOT FROM
00:01:55INHERITED AUTHORITY, BUT FROM THE PEOPLE.
00:01:59WILSON HELPED SHAPE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. HE PLAYED A PIVOTAL ROLE IN
00:02:04DRAFTING THE CONSTITUTION AND SERVED ON THE FIRST SUPREME
00:02:08COURT. DESPITE HIS INFLUENCE, HE HAS LARGELY DISAPPEARED FROM PUBLIC
00:02:12MEMORY, OVERSHADOWED BY MORE FAMILIAR NAMES AND TARNISHED BY
00:02:16PERSONAL SCANDAL. WEGMAN'S BOOK ASKS WHAT WE LOSE
00:02:19WHEN WE FORGET. ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS OF THE
00:02:23AMERICAN EXPERIMENT AND WHAT WILSON'S VISION MIGHT STILL HAVE
00:02:26TO TEACH US TODAY. JESSE WEGMAN IS A SENIOR FELLOW
00:02:30AT THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE AND FORMERLY SERVED ON
00:02:34THE NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL BOARD, WHERE HE WROTE EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE OCRACY
00:02:38CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM AND THE SUPREME COURT.
00:02:41HE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF LET THE PEOPLE PICK THE PRESIDENT.
00:02:45THE CASE FOR ABOLISHING THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
00:02:49HE'LL BE JOINED BY JOHN MCHALE,
00:02:51THE CARROLL PROFESSOR OF JURISPRUDENCE AT GEORGETOWN
00:02:55UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER, WHOSE SCHOLARSHIP SPANS CONSTITUTIONAL
00:03:00LAW, LEGAL HISTORY, MORAL PSYCHOLOGY AND HUMAN RIGHTS.
00:03:05PROFESSOR MCHALE HAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ON JAMES WILSON AND
00:03:07THE INTELLECTUAL FOUNDATIONS OF
00:03:10THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL TRADITION. SO PLEASE JOIN ME IN WELCOMING
00:03:14JESSE WEGMAN AND JOHN MCHALE.
00:03:29GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.
00:03:32IT'S SO NICE TO SEE ALL OF YOU. I'M JOHN MCHALE.
00:03:36I'M A LAW PROFESSOR AT GEORGETOWN. AND I'M DELIGHTED TO BE HERE
00:03:38THIS EVENING WITH JESSE WEGMAN
00:03:40TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK ON JAMES WILSON.
00:03:44JESSE HAS ALREADY BEEN INTRODUCED, SO I'M GOING TO
00:03:47ACTUALLY JUMP RIGHT TO MY FIRST QUESTION. BUT JESSE, FIRST, WELCOME TO
00:03:50WASHINGTON, D.C. IT'S A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE. SO GLAD WE CAN DO THIS EVENT.
00:03:55SO LET ME JUST START WITH THE QUESTION OF MOTIVATION.
00:03:58WHAT MOTIVATED YOU TO WRITE THIS BOOK?
00:04:00HOW DID JAMES WILSON GET ON YOUR
00:04:04RADAR? YOU WROTE A FIRST BOOK ON THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
00:04:08AND I THINK THERE'S A CONNECTION THERE, BUT MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT THAT.
00:04:11LINCOLN, AND WHY YOU DECIDED TO WRITE A BOOK ON HIM. SURE.
00:04:14WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU,
00:04:16JOHN, FOR MODERATING THIS EVENT.
00:04:18THANK YOU TO POLITICS AND PROSE FOR HOSTING IT.
00:04:21AND TO MY EDITOR, BILL HAMILTON
00:04:23FROM CELADON BOOKS, WHO WHO IS SO ESSENTIAL TO MAKING THIS BOOK
00:04:27WHAT IT IS THE JOHN.
00:04:31YOU'RE RIGHT. THE BOOK IS A SOMEWHAT OF A SPIN
00:04:35OFF FROM THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE BOOK.
00:04:37WHEN I WAS WORKING ON THAT BOOK,
00:04:39I WANTED TO FIND THE MOMENT WHEN
00:04:43THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE WAS
00:04:45ADOPTED IN THE CONSTITUTION, ONE CONVENTION IN PHILADELPHIA.
00:04:48SO I'M GOING THROUGH JAMES MADISON'S NOTES, TRYING TO FIND
00:04:52IT, AND AND I KEEP RUNNING INTO
00:04:56THIS SCOTTISH GUY THIS LONG
00:04:58WINDED SCOTTISH GUY WHO'S SAYING THINGS THAT ARE SHOCKINGLY
00:05:03MODERN FOR A MAN IN THE LATE 18TH CENTURY.
00:05:06I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE WAS SAYING ABOUT EQUALITY AND
00:05:10POPULAR RULE. AND POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY AND AND
00:05:13THINGS THAT WE JUST DIDN'T
00:05:14EXPECT TO HEAR REALLY FROM,
00:05:18CERTAINLY NOT FROM ELITES OF THAT TIME.
00:05:20AND I SAID, OKAY, JAMES WILSON, WHO'S HE?
00:05:22AND I WAS I WAS ACTUALLY EMBARRASSED BECAUSE I HAD GONE
00:05:26TO LAW SCHOOL. I HAD GONE TO COLLEGE. I WAS WRITING FOR A MAJOR
00:05:29NATIONAL NEWSPAPER ABOUT THE
00:05:31CONSTITUTION, THE SUPREME COURT. I WAS LIKE, HOW DO I NOT KNOW
00:05:35THIS GUY? BUT THEN I STARTED ASKING AROUND
00:05:39AND FINDING OUT THAT NOBODY ELSE KNEW WHO HE WAS EITHER.
00:05:43AND THE STORY I LIKE TO TELL IS THAT WHAT I THINK REALLY THE
00:05:48CATALYST FOR THIS BOOK WAS?
00:05:48I WAS AT A LIKE A BRUNCH IN
00:05:532019, AND I WAS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF MY EXCITEMENT OVER
00:05:58DISCOVERING JAMES WILSON AND THIS BRUNCH HAD A BUNCH OF
00:06:02LEGAL, YOU KNOW, HOITY TOITY LEGAL PEOPLE THERE.
00:06:04AND I'M STANDING IN LINE AT THE
00:06:06AT THE BUFFET LINE AND BEHIND ME, I HEAR A VERY DISTINCTIVE
00:06:09VOICE OF A SITTING SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.
00:06:12AND SO I TURN AROUND AND I SAY, JUSTICE I, I GOT TO TALK TO YOU
00:06:16ABOUT JAMES WILSON, WHO YOU KNOW, JUST JAMES WILSON SAT ON THE FIRST SUPREME COURT.
00:06:20YOU'LL YOU'LL HEAR TONIGHT AND I
00:06:24AND AND THE JUSTICE SAYS, WELL,
00:06:26OF COURSE I KNOW JAMES WILSON.
00:06:28AND WE STARTED TALKING. I KIND OF PIGEONHOLED HIM AND WE
00:06:32STARTED TALKING. AND WITHIN LIKE 30S OF OUR CONVERSATION WAS CLEAR THAT I
00:06:35KNEW MORE ABOUT JAMES WILSON THAN HE DID.
00:06:39AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, OKAY, I KNOW MORE ABOUT ONE OF THE MOST
00:06:43INFLUENTIAL OR FOUNDERS IN AMERICA THAN A SITTING JUSTICE
00:06:47OF THE SUPREME COURT. THERE'S A BOOK THERE.
00:06:50SO IT WAS THE THE EXCITEMENT OF
00:06:53HIS IDEAS, HIS VISION FOR THE
00:06:55COUNTRY, HIS PRESENCE ABOUT WHAT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WOULD BECOME,
00:06:59AND THEN THE FACT THAT HE HAD
00:07:01BEEN SO UNSPARING, HONESTLY ERASED FROM THE AMERICAN
00:07:06FOUNDING NARRATIVE. THAT'S THE LOST PART OF THE LOST FOUNDER.
00:07:10AND I'M HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT WHY THAT IS.
00:07:12BUT THAT'S THE STORY. TERRIFIC. TERRIFIC. SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE
00:07:16ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THAT WILSON,
00:07:20DESPITE BEING MOSTLY FORGOTTEN,
00:07:22WAS, IN FACT, A VERY IMPORTANT FOUNDER OF THE UNITED STATES.
00:07:25GIVE US SOME OF THE TOP LINE
00:07:28ACHIEVEMENT OR CONTRIBUTIONS THAT HE MADE. WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE
00:07:31ABOUT HIS BACKGROUND IN A MOMENT. BUT GIVE US THE THE BIRD'S EYE
00:07:34VIEW IF YOU WILL, OF WILSON, WHY HE, IN FACT, IS SO IMPORTANT. SURE.
00:07:39SO WILSON, LIKE ALEXANDER HAMILTON AND A FEW OF THE OTHER
00:07:42FOUNDERS, IS AN IMMIGRANT. HE COMES OVER IN HIS EARLY 20S
00:07:46FROM SCOTLAND, WHERE HE WAS
00:07:47RAISED AS A POOR SON OF A IN A
00:07:50FARMING FAMILY IN THE LOWLANDS OUTSIDE OF EDINBURGH.
00:07:54AND HE GROWING UP THERE, HE WAS
00:07:57HE JUST WAS EXPOSED TO A DIFFERENT EDUCATION IN A
00:07:59DIFFERENT SOCIETY THAN ALL THE OTHER FOUNDERS WERE.
00:08:03HE HE GREW UP IN THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, FOR ONE
00:08:06THING, WHICH WAS A MUCH MORE STRUCTURALLY DEMOCRAT
00:08:10INSTITUTION THAN, SAY, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OR THE ANGLICAN
00:08:14CHURCH.
00:08:15HE WAS EDUCATED IN A EDUCATIONAL
00:08:19SYSTEM THAT EMPHASIZED THE
00:08:23EQUALITY OF ALL SCOTS. SO CHILDREN, THE QUOTE WAS A
00:08:27SCHOOL IN EVERY PARISH, EVERY CHILD IN SCOTLAND WAS TO BE
00:08:30EDUCATED TO A CERTAIN LEVEL, NO MATTER THEIR BACKGROUND, NO
00:08:34MATTER THEIR STATION IN LIFE. AND THIS WAS ESSENTIAL IN MAKING
00:08:39SCOTLAND ONE OF THE COUNTRY WITH ONE OF THE HIGHEST LITERACY RATES IN THE WORLD.
00:08:43AT THE TIME, SCOTLAND HAD ONLY RECENTLY BEEN SOMEWHAT OF A
00:08:47BACKWATER. IT WAS IT WAS STILL RELYING ON
00:08:50FARMING PRACTICES FROM THE MIDDLE AGES AND, YOU KNOW,
00:08:55WILSON IS GROWING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS KIND OF MULTIPLE
00:09:00REVOLUTIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN SCOTLAND. AT THE TIME, MAYBE THE MOST
00:09:02SIGNIFICANT OF WHICH IS THE SCOTTISH ENLIGHTENMENT.
00:09:06AND YOU KNOW, THE SCOTTISH ENLIGHTENMENT THINKERS COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED THE WAY
00:09:09WE TALK ABOUT GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS AND, YOU KNOW, HUMAN
00:09:14INTERACTION AND MORALITY AND
00:09:17PHILOSOPHY AND, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ACTUALLY TEACHING WILSON
00:09:21THEMSELVES PERSONALLY, LIKE HE WAS STUDYING AT THEIR FEET. HE WENT TO ST ANDREW'S UNIVERSITY, WHICH WAS A FEW
00:09:25MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM HIS FARM.
00:09:27HE THEN WENT TO GLASGOW WHEN HE WAS A LITTLE OLDER. AND SO WILSON IS LITERALLY
00:09:31STUDYING WITH THESE THINKERS,
00:09:34THESE TRANSFORMATIVE THINKERS. ALL THE FOUNDERS KNEW WHO THEY
00:09:37WERE, FROM DAVID HUME TO FRANCIS HUTCHESON TO, YOU KNOW, THOMAS
00:09:40REID AND ADAM SMITH. BUT NOBODY STUDIED WITH THEM DIRECTLY.
00:09:44SO WILSON COMES OVER TO AMERICA,
00:09:46IMBUED WITH THIS VERY DEMOCRATIC SPIRIT IN HIS HEART.
00:09:50AND I THINK TO A DEGREE THAT NONE OF THE OTHER FOUNDERS HAD,
00:09:53HE BELIEVED FUNDAMENTALLY THAT THE PEOPLE WERE THE SOURCE OF
00:09:57ALL AUTHORITY IN GOVERNMENT. THAT WAS HIS FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF, POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY,
00:10:00THAT THAT THE PEOPLE ARE THE FOUNDATION OF ALL POLITICAL
00:10:04POWER AND THAT THEY HOLD IN,
00:10:06THEY HOLD AND CANNOT GIVE UP THE
00:10:09RIGHT TO ALTER THEIR GOVERNMENT AND ALTER THEIR CONSTITUTION
00:10:14WHENEVER AND HOWEVER THEY PLEASE. THIS WAS A THEORY THAT I THINK
00:10:17SCARED A LOT OF THE OTHER FRAMERS. WILSON CLUNG TO IT FROM THE
00:10:21BEGINNING UNTIL THE VERY END OF HIS LIFE. WONDERFUL.
00:10:25SO ONE OF THE LITTLE KNOWN FACTS
00:10:27ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION IS THAT
00:10:3140, 40 MEN SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION. THERE WERE 39 DELEGATES, AND THE
00:10:35SECRETARY OF THE CONSTITUTION, WILLIAM JACKSON, AND A FULL
00:10:38EIGHT OF THEM, ONE FIFTH WERE IMMIGRANTS.
00:10:41THEY HAD BEEN BORN OVERSEAS AND
00:10:43CAME TO AMERICA AT VARYING
00:10:46POINTS IN THEIR LIVES. WILSON WAS DISTINCTIVE BECAUSE
00:10:48HE WAS A FULLY GROWN MAN WHEN HE CAME TO AMERICA, HE WAS ALREADY
00:10:5223. HE ARRIVES IN 1765 AROUND THE
00:10:55TIME OF THE STAMP ACT. TELL US WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN HIS LIFE.
00:10:59IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING HOW QUICKLY HE SEEMS TO GET
00:11:01CONNECTED TO IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE COLONIES. YES, IT'S ONE OF THE AMAZING
00:11:05THINGS ABOUT WILSON IS, YOU KNOW, HE'S A FARM BOY, BASICALLY, WHO ENDS UP AS A
00:11:09BURSAR, A SCHOLARSHIP AT ST ANDREW'S.
00:11:11HE DOES NOT HAVE CONNECTIONS,
00:11:13YOU KNOW, TO THE ELITES IN THE
00:11:15COLONIES AT THE TIME. AND YET WITHIN A FEW YEARS HE BECOMES ONE OF THE LEADING
00:11:20LAWYERS IN PENNSYLVANIA. HE APPRENTICES IN LAW, AS SOON AS HE GETS HERE, MOVES TO
00:11:25PHILADELPHIA, BECOMES ONE OF THE LEADING LAWYERS AND THEN AT THE
00:11:27AGE OF 26, WHICH I LIKE TO NOTE
00:11:31IS THE SAME YEAR THAT BRUCE
00:11:34SPRINGSTEEN WROTE BORN TO RUN.
00:11:35JAMES WILSON WRITES THIS ESSAY
00:11:38THAT KIND OF BLOWS THE LID OFF
00:11:40THE WHOLE PROJECT IN WHICH HE
00:11:45ARGUES IS THE FOR THE FIRST TIME, NOBODY HAS ARGUED THIS YET
00:11:47THAT PARLIAMENT, THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT, HAS NO AUTHORITY
00:11:52WHATSOEVER FOR OVER THE COLONIES UNTIL THAT POINT, EVEN THE
00:11:56GREATEST THINKERS OF THE COLONIES WERE DOING THIS VERY
00:12:00COMPLICATED DANCE, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SAY, WELL, YOU
00:12:03KNOW, THEY HAVE SOME AUTHORITY. THEY'RE CLEARLY SOVEREIGN.
00:12:06AS YOU KNOW, BLACKSTONE SAYS. BUT THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY THEY
00:12:10DON'T THEY DON'T HAVE AUTHORITY TO TAX US, YOU KNOW, INTERNAL
00:12:14TAXES VERSUS EXTERNAL TAXES, ALL
00:12:16THESE KIND OF WEIRD LEGAL ISTIC.
00:12:18THIS HAIRSPLITTING. AND WILSON SAYS NO. AND IT'S TRUE.
00:12:22IT'S 11,000 WORDS. THIS ESSAY. THIS IS YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T
00:12:25HE'S NOT A DILETTANTE HERE. HE'S HE IS A LAWYER DOING USING
00:12:28LEGAL THOUGHT AND HISTORIC
00:12:31ANALYSIS TO SAY THERE IS NO AUTHORITY AT ALL OVER THE
00:12:35COLONIES AND IT LANDS LIKE A
00:12:39BOMBSHELL. I MEAN, IT'S IT'S IT IS IT IS, ACTUALLY.
00:12:41SO IT'S SO POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE
00:12:43AS AN ARGUMENT THAT HIS MENTOR SAYS JAMES, PUT THIS AWAY.
00:12:47YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT YOU'RE A YOUNG MAN.
00:12:50YOU HAVE A BIG CAREER AHEAD OF YOU. DON'T RUIN IT AT THE OUTSET.
00:12:54THIS IS TOO MUCH TO ARGUE RIGHT NOW. SO HE PUTS IT IN A DRAWER SIX
00:12:58YEARS LATER, 1774, WE ARE ON THE CUSP OF THE REVOLUTION, RIGHT?
00:13:03THE INTOLERABLE EXCUSE ME, THE INTERNAL INTO TOLERABLE ACTS ARE
00:13:06BEING PASSED AS REALLY THE LAST
00:13:10STRAW AND WILSON PUBLISHES HIS
00:13:14ESSAY IN NEW YORK'S IN THE IN
00:13:17THE IN REMINGTON'S GAZETTEER AND
00:13:23THE ESSAY IS ATTRIBUTED IN THE
00:13:25NEWSPAPER TO BENJAMIN FRANKLIN FOR REASONS THAT EVEN TODAY
00:13:30ESCAPE FULL EXPLANATION.
00:13:34HOWEVER, SOMEBODY WRITES A LETTER TO THE EDITOR AND SAYS, EXCUSE ME, THAT'S NOT BY
00:13:37BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, IT'S BY THE YOUNG SCOT, JAMES WILSON.
00:13:41HE'S A PATRIOT. AND SUDDENLY THE CONVERSATION
00:13:46SHIFTS. THIS IS AT A MOMENT WHEN I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE MUCH
00:13:50MORE OPEN TO THE ARGUMENT THAT PARLIAMENT HAS NO AUTHORITY OVER THEM.
00:13:54WITHIN TWO YEARS, WHEN WE GOT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
00:13:58TURNING 250 IN A FEW WEEKS AND
00:14:01AND WHEN YOU READ THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE,
00:14:04PRIMARILY THE PREAMBLE, WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT,
00:14:08THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. THE SORT OF STIRRING, SOARING
00:14:10LINES THAT WE ALL KNOW THEY
00:14:12TRACK ALMOST EXACTLY TO ONE OF
00:14:15THE EARLY PARAGRAPHS OF WILSON'S
00:14:19ESSAY A HISTORIAN THIS GOING BACK I'D SAY ABOUT A HUNDRED
00:14:22YEARS HAVE TAKEN THAT AS STRONG
00:14:25EVIDENCE THAT WILSON WAS ONE OF THE MAIN IF NOT THE MAIN
00:14:29INFLUENCE ON JEFFERSON THOMAS JEFFERSON AS HE DRAFTED THE
00:14:33DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. JEFFERSON FREELY ADMITTED THAT
00:14:37HE WAS DRAWING FROM MANY SOURCES. BUT WHEN YOU GO INTO HIS COMMONPLACE BOOK THAT WHERE HE
00:14:41KEPT THE QUOTES THAT HE LIKED,
00:14:43HE HE HAD THE WHOLE CHUNKS OF
00:14:46THAT ESSAY LAID OUT IN THE BOOK. SO.
00:14:48WILSON BY THE TIME, WHAT, WITHIN
00:14:50LESS THAN A DECADE OF BEING IN THE UNITED STATES OR I GUESS
00:14:54BEING IN THE COLONIES, HE HAD
00:14:58INFLUENCE AT WHAT WE TODAY CONSIDER THE MOST PROFOUND DOCUMENT IN THE HISTORY OF
00:15:02AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. IT'S A PRETTY GOOD ACCOMPLISHMENT FOR A YOUNG A
00:15:05YOUNG MAN. GREAT.
00:15:08SO SO WILSON WRITES THE 1774 PAMPHLET.
00:15:11IT DEFINITELY HAS AN IMPACT ON PEOPLE LIKE JEFFERSON.
00:15:15HE BECOMES A MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS. SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
00:15:19HIS ACTIVITIES THERE. DOES HE SIGN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE? I'M SORRY.
00:15:23YES. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
00:15:25WILSON STANDS OUT FOR MANY REASONS. AS YOU'LL SEE WHEN YOU READ THE
00:15:29BOOK. ONE OF THEM IS THAT HE IS ONE OF
00:15:31ONLY SIX PEOPLE TO SIGN BOTH THE
00:15:34DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND THE CONSTITUTION IN THE
00:15:38CONTINENTAL CONGRESS. HE SERVES NOT WITH GREAT
00:15:40DISTINCTION, BUT, YOU KNOW, NOBODY DID. IT WAS IT WAS A IT WAS A
00:15:44DIFFICULT INSTITUTION. IT DIDN'T DO IT.
00:15:47IT FAILED TO DO A LOT OF WHAT IT WANTED TO DO.
00:15:49THIS WAS WHAT MADE MANY OF THEM FRUSTRATED AT THE ARTICLES OF
00:15:54CONFEDERATION AND EVENTUALLY CALLED THE CONSTITUTION CONVENTION.
00:15:58BUT HE HE DID A LOT OF NEGOTIATING IN LANDS WITH
00:16:01INDIGENOUS TRIBES.
00:16:05HE HE LEARNED A LOT OF THE SORT OF PROTOCOLS OF OF OF THOSE
00:16:10NEGOTIATED LANDS. AND THERE'S LETTERS BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY YOU
00:16:13BRING AND HOW YOU AND HOW YOU DEAL IN LANDS.
00:16:17THIS WAS ALSO AN EARLY HARBINGER
00:16:21OF WHAT WHAT BECAME WILSON'S
00:16:24DOWNFALL, WHICH WAS HIS, LET'S CALL IT, HIS ADDICTION TO
00:16:28SPECULATING AND LAND.
00:16:30HE BECAME SUCH A VORACIOUS
00:16:35PURCHASER OF LANDS THAT HE ENDED
00:16:37UP GOING INTO, YOU KNOW,
00:16:39CRIPPLING DEBT AND DRIVING
00:16:43HIMSELF TO RUIN AND EVENTUALLY DEATH, WHICH THE BOOK BEGINS
00:16:46WITH THAT STORY.
00:16:48BUT BUT YOU CAN SORT OF SEE THE EARLY HINTS OF THIS AS OTHER
00:16:52MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE SORT OF LOOKING ASKANCE AT WILSON AND
00:16:55SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE THINK THIS GUY MIGHT HAVE YOU KNOW, IT
00:16:58MIGHT NOT JUST BE THE COUNTRY'S INTEREST.
00:17:00HE HE HE HAS WHEN HE'S WHEN HE'S NEGOTIATING WITH THESE TRIBES.
00:17:04BUT WILSON IS UNBOWED AND AND
00:17:08AND HE HAPPILY PLOWS AHEAD BY
00:17:11THE END OF HIS LIFE IN THE 1790S.
00:17:13HE OWNS 4 MILLION ACRES OF LAND
00:17:17ACROSS THE NEW COUNTRY WHICH IS A LOT OF LAND. IT'S THE SIZE OF CONNECTICUT,
00:17:22ROUGHLY.
00:17:24SO SO WILSON GETS TO THE 1770S
00:17:27AS AN INCREASINGLY WEALTHY
00:17:29LAWYER AND INCREASINGLY INFLUENTIAL POLITICAL THINKER
00:17:33AND AND POLITICIAN AND AND A
00:17:36MEMBER OF THE PHILADELPHIA ELITE.
00:17:40TERRIFIC. AND SO WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING
00:17:44THAT HAPPENED IN THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS. THERE WERE JOURNALS THAT WERE ACTUALLY PUBLISHED AT THE TIME.
00:17:48ONE OF THE REALLY NEAT THINGS ABOUT THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS
00:17:51IS THAT THE BEST NOTES THAT WERE TAKEN WERE TAKEN BY TWO FUTURE
00:17:55PRESIDENTS, JOHN ADAMS AND
00:17:57THOMAS JEFFERSON AND WILSON PLAYS A PRETTY BIG ROLE IN SOME
00:18:00OF THE HOT DEBATES RIGHT AROUND
00:18:03THE TIME OF THE ADOPTION OF THE DECLARATION AND THE BEGINNING OF THE DEBATE ON THE ARTICLES OF
00:18:08CONFEDERATION. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT
00:18:10OUT IN THE BOOK IS WILSON'S TWIN
00:18:13COMMITMENTS TO A VERY ROBUST
00:18:17NATIONALISM AND DEMOCRACY, OR WHAT WE TODAY THINK OF AS
00:18:21DEMOCRACY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE CALLED IT REPUBLICANISM. BUT THE IDEA THAT SOVEREIGNTY
00:18:26RESTS WITH THE PEOPLE. SO WILSON HAS OFTEN BEEN CALLED
00:18:28OUR MOST DEMOCRATIC FOUNDER
00:18:30BECAUSE OF HIS SUPPORT FOR
00:18:32POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY AND POPULAR ELECTIONS.
00:18:35AND EVEN THE PRINCIPLE OF ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE, AS YOU POINT
00:18:39OUT, THERE'S AN IRONY HERE
00:18:42BECAUSE HE WAS NOT PERCEIVED TO BE A MAN OF THE PEOPLE AT THE TIME.
00:18:45AND THE CONTRARY, HE WAS PERCEIVED TO BE A HIGH PRICED
00:18:48LAWYER WHO CATERED TO THE RICH AND POWERFUL. AND ONE OF THE EPISODES YOU
00:18:52DISCUSS IN THE BOOK, I THINK
00:18:54THAT OCCURRED IN 1779, THE FORT WILSON RIOT. YES.
00:19:00INVOLVE THE POPULAR MOB THAT
00:19:02ATTACKED WILSON'S HOME ALMOST TOOK HIS LIFE.
00:19:05TELL US ABOUT THAT INCIDENT AND SOME OF THE LESSONS THAT YOU DRAW FROM IT.
00:19:09WILSON IS A DIFFICULT GUY TO
00:19:11LIKE AND HE'S A CONTRADICTORY
00:19:13GUY, WHICH IS PARTLY WHY I LIKE
00:19:18HIM. I LIKE CONTRADICTORY PEOPLE.
00:19:20AND HE YES, AS JOHN JUST SAID,
00:19:25HE IS THE GREATEST ADVOCATE OF
00:19:27ALL THE FOUNDERS FOR POPULAR
00:19:29RULE FOR POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY. THE IDEA THAT REGULAR PEOPLE
00:19:33HAVE TO HAVE ALL HAVE ULTIMATE
00:19:36AUTHORITY AND HAVE EQUAL ACCESS
00:19:38TO WISDOM, TO TRUTH, TO, YOU
00:19:42KNOW, THE ABILITY TO GOVERN THEMSELVES AS ANYBODY, A BUTCHER
00:19:45AND A BANKER ARE THE EQUIVALENT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BALLOT BOX.
00:19:49THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT A
00:19:51LOT OF HIS PEERS BELIEVED.
00:19:53AND AT THE SAME TIME, WILSON IS AN ELITE AND HE'S HAPPY TO LIVE
00:19:57THAT WAY. HE HE HAS A VERY NICE HOUSE IN PHILADELPHIA.
00:20:01YOU KNOW, HE'S LIVING IN THE
00:20:02FRONTIER PART OF PENNSYLVANIA FOR A WHILE AND REDDING AND CARLISLE.
00:20:06BUT THEN AFTER THE BRITISH OCCUPATION OF PHILADELPHIA ENDS, HE MOVES BACK.
00:20:11HE GETS A VERY NICE FOUR STOREY BRICK HOUSE.
00:20:13HE HOBNOB WITH ROBERT MORRIS AND
00:20:16ALL THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, THE
00:20:20ELITES OF THE COUNTRY IN WHAT WAS THEN THE CAPITOL.
00:20:24SO, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF SUSPICION OF WILSON DURING THIS
00:20:27TIME FOR THESE REASONS, INCLUDING AS YOU ALLUDED TO, HIS
00:20:31BEHAVIOR AROUND CERTAIN
00:20:33POLITICAL INCIDENTS IN THE YEARS
00:20:37DURING AND AFTER THE INDEPENDENCE WAS DECLARED.
00:20:39HE DELAYS PENNSYLVANIA'S VOTE ON
00:20:43INDEPENDENCE IN JUNE OF 1776.
00:20:46THERE'S GOOD REASON FOR THAT, BUT IT DOESN'T ENDEAR HIM TO THE
00:20:51REVOLUTIONARIES HE OPPOSES PENNSYLVANIA'S CONSTITUTION.
00:20:55IT'S FOR 1776 CONSTITUTION,
00:20:57WHICH IS WIDELY KNOWN AS THE
00:20:59MOST DEMOCRATIC OF ALL STATE CONSTITUTIONS.
00:21:02THAT ALSO -- A LOT OF PEOPLE. THERE'S ALSO A GOOD REASON FOR
00:21:06THAT. I HAVE A WHOLE CHAPTER IN THE BOOK ON THAT WHICH YOU CAN READ, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS PEOPLE
00:21:10INTERPRETED IT IN A WAY THAT WAS
00:21:12NOT FAVORABLE TO HIM. AND FINALLY IN 1779, RIGHT AFTER
00:21:16HE RETURNS TO PHILADELPHIA, HE
00:21:17STARTS DEFENDING LOYALISTS WHO
00:21:22ARE ACCUSED OF TREASON,
00:21:25INFURIATING PHILADELPHIANS WHO, FIRST OF ALL, DON'T WANT
00:21:28LOYALISTS TO GET ANY KIND OF DEFENSE.
00:21:30AND ALSO WHO ARE EXPERIENCING
00:21:33SEVERE SHORTAGES, FOOD SHORTAGES
00:21:36RELATED TO THE ONGOING WAR, THE DECLINING ECONOMY.
00:21:40WILSON IS, FOR THEM, AN AVATAR OF EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH
00:21:43AMERICA AND EVERYTHING THAT IS KEEPING THEM DOWN.
00:21:46SO AS JOHN SAYS, IN OCTOBER OF
00:21:491779, A MILITIA GATHERS OR
00:21:51SEVERAL MILITIAS GATHER AT A PUB
00:21:53IN CENTRAL PHILADELPHIA.
00:21:55THEY GET DRUNK, THEY ARE ARMED, AND THEY GO OUT LOOKING FOR THE
00:22:01DEVIL WHOM THEY IDENTIFY. AND A FEW OF THE ELITES OF
00:22:05PHILADELPHIA, INCLUDING MR. WILSON, THEY MARCH TOWARD HIS HOUSE.
00:22:09THIS IS A IT'S A CROWD THAT'S APPROACHING 200 PEOPLE.
00:22:13WILSON GETS WORD THAT THEY'RE COMING. AND SO HE BARRICADES HIMSELF IN
00:22:16THE HOUSE WITH ROUGHLY TWO DOZEN OF HIS ALLIES.
00:22:20A FIGHT BREAKS OUT. SEVEN PEOPLE ARE KILLED IN
00:22:24SHOOTING BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE STREET.
00:22:27AT LEAST 17 PEOPLE ARE WOUNDED. IT IS QUICKLY, QUICKLY BECOMING
00:22:32SORT OF THE MOST SHOCKING RIOT
00:22:36OF THE REVOLUTIONARY ERA. IT LIKE SHAYS REBELLION, IT
00:22:39SHAKES THE COUNTRY'S LEADERS TO
00:22:41THEIR CORE AND GIVES THEM THE SENSE THAT MANY OF THEM, THE
00:22:44SENSE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.
00:22:47WILSON ESCAPES, AS YOU SAID, WITH BARELY WITH HIS LIFE.
00:22:51HE HE SKIPS OUT OF TOWN AND HAS SENDS LETTERS BACK AND FORTH TO
00:22:54ROBERT MORRIS, WHO SAYS, YOU
00:22:57KNOW, JAMES, DON'T COME BACK. AND HE SAYS, I GOT TO COME BACK.
00:23:00AND AND THEY'RE ARGUING FOR SEVERAL DAYS. AND FINALLY WILSON SNEAKS BACK
00:23:03IN WHEN THINGS HAVE QUIETED DOWN A BIT.
00:23:06BUT WHAT AMAZED ME ABOUT THIS
00:23:09WHOLE INCIDENT, WHICH I THINK IN
00:23:11SOME WAYS WAS IF THE STORY OF
00:23:13LIKE FINDING WILSON AND LEARNING THAT NOBODY ELSE KNEW ABOUT HIM
00:23:16WAS THE CATALYST FOR THE BOOK, I THINK THE DRIVING DILEMMA FOR
00:23:20ME, THE THING THAT WAS SO THAT KEPT ME THINKING ABOUT HIM AS A COMPLICATED AND INTERESTING
00:23:24PERSON WAS AFTER THAT INCIDENT,
00:23:26HE WAS NO LESS DEVOTED TO THE TO THE FUNDAMENTAL IDEAL OF POPULAR
00:23:30SOVEREIGNTY THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAN HE WAS BEFORE. IT. RIGHT.
00:23:34AND HE COMES TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION JUST
00:23:36AS MUCH AN ADVOCATE FOR POPULAR
00:23:39SELF-RULE AS HE WAS BEFORE, AND FAR MORE THAN MOST OF THE OTHER FRAMERS.
00:23:43SO I WAS THINKING, WHO IS NEARLY
00:23:47KILLED AT THE HANDS OF A MOB? I MEAN, IF ANYBODY COULD YOU
00:23:51KNOW, IF YOU COULD SYMPATHIZE WITH ANYBODY SAYING, WELL, MAYBE
00:23:53MY THEORY WAS A LITTLE OVERBLOWN, MAYBE THE PEOPLE
00:23:55SHOULDN'T BE TRUSTED. IT'S SOMEBODY WHO'S NEARLY KILLED BY A MOB WHO'S COMING FOR
00:24:01HIM. AND YET JAMES WILSON IS UNAFFECTED.
00:24:03APPARENTLY SO THAT KIND OF BULL
00:24:07HEADEDNESS FASCINATES ME. AND THAT'S A BIG PART OF WHAT
00:24:09DROVE THE BOOK. GREAT. SO SO NOW MAYBE LET'S GO TO THE
00:24:13CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP.
00:24:16WILSON WAS ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL
00:24:18DRAFTERS OF THE CONSTITUTION, ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION.
00:24:22AND YOU DETAIL THIS QUITE NICELY IN THE BOOK.
00:24:26TELL US, WHAT ROLE DID HE PLAY IN THE CONSTITUTION TIONAL CONVENTION?
00:24:31WHAT FEATURES DID HE PUSH FOR?
00:24:35WHAT WAS HIS WIN LOSS RECORD? GIVE US WELL, I'LL DO THE VERY
00:24:38QUICK I'LL DO THE VERY QUICK VERSION OF THAT. THANKS TO BILL HAMILTON FOR
00:24:44BREAKING THAT CHAPTER UP INTO MULTIPLE CHAPTERS BECAUSE IT WAS
00:24:47WAY TOO LONG BECAUSE IT REALLY
00:24:49IS THE HEART OF WILSON'S LIFE IS
00:24:51AND THE PINNACLE OF HIS CAREER IS REALLY THAT CONVENTION.
00:24:53AND THAT'S BECAUSE HE SHOWED UP
00:24:55THERE, INSISTS ON A DEGREE OF
00:24:58INVOLVEMENT BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT NONE OF THE OTHER
00:25:01FOUNDERS WERE FULLY ON BOARD WITH. AND HE GOT A LOT OF IT.
00:25:04I WOULD SAY THE NUMBER ONE THING, AND I THINK WE MIGHT
00:25:07AGREE WITH THIS IS HIS PUTTING THE FIRST THREE WORDS OF THE
00:25:10CONSTITUTION, WRITING THE FIRST THREE WORDS OF THE CONSTITUTION, WHICH IS WE THE PEOPLE.
00:25:13YOU KNOW, HE PUT THOSE THERE IN
00:25:16THE MIDDLE OF THE SUMMER DURING A BREAK WHEN EVERYONE ELSE HAD
00:25:19GONE HOME TO SPEND TIME AT THEIR FAMILY DINNER, DEAL WITH SOME
00:25:23BUSINESS, AND EVERYONE WAS EXHAUSTED, ANGRY AT EACH OTHER
00:25:26AFTER FIGHTING OVER CONGRESS FOR
00:25:29SIX WEEKS OR MORE, WILSON STAYED WITH FOUR OTHER DELEGATES WITH
00:25:33IN SOMETHING CALLED THE COMMITTEE OF DETAIL, WHICH IS A FASCINATING INTERLUDE, VERY
00:25:39UNDERREPORTED. IT, I THINK, UNTIL NOW. AND THE WORK OF PEOPLE LIKE BILL
00:25:42YOU ALL THAT YOU PEN AND JOHN
00:25:45BUT THE COMMITTEE OF DETAIL IN
00:25:47THE COMMITTEE OF DETAIL WILSON
00:25:51INSERTS A LOT OF THINGS THAT HADN'T BEEN VOTED ON AT THE AT
00:25:54THE ON THE FLOOR OF THE OF THE CONVENTION.
00:25:58ONE OF THEM IS WE THE PEOPLE. AND HE IS VERY JEALOUS OF THIS
00:26:02PHRASE. RIGHT. IT'S IT'S TO HIM IT'S THE ESSENCE OF EVERYTHING.
00:26:05IT IS THE IT IS THE TRANSFER OF
00:26:07THE OF THE IDEALS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE INTO
00:26:10THE CONSTITU LUTION. RIGHT. BECAUSE THE PEOPLE ARE AT THE
00:26:13FRONT OF THE ENTIRE THING. THE PEOPLE ARE WHAT MAKES THIS WHOLE THING TICK.
00:26:18SORRY. I KEEP I KEEP DROPPING MY NOTES
00:26:22AND, YOU KNOW, WILSON OH, THANK
00:26:24YOU VERY MUCH.
00:26:28WILSON WRITES IT DOWN FOR A LITTLE BIT LATER DURING THE
00:26:32COMMITTEE. SOMEONE HE IT'S HE IT FIRST GETS
00:26:35CRAFTED AS WE THE PEOPLE OF THE
00:26:37STATES OF ALL THE STATES AND
00:26:41THEN IT GETS CHANGED TO WE THE PEOPLE AND THE STATES BY SOMEONE
00:26:45I DON'T KNOW WHO CHANGED IT TO THAT.
00:26:47AND THEN WILSON CROSSES OUT AND
00:26:49AND HE WRITES OF AGAIN BECAUSE
00:26:52HE WANTS TO MAKE CLEAR THIS IS NOT PEOPLE AND STATES THIS IS
00:26:56PEOPLE PEOPLE ARE THE PRIMARY ARE THE ARE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY IN GOVERNMENT.
00:27:00AND SO THAT REALLY I THINK MORE THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE THING
00:27:04EMBODIES THE VALUES THAT HE BROUGHT INTO THE CONVENTION.
00:27:06HE WAS FIGHTING WITH THE OTHER DELEGATES CONSTANTLY THROUGH THE
00:27:10SUMMER OVER THEIR COMMITMENT TO STATES, OVER PEOPLE.
00:27:13HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON WITH YOU GUYS, WHY DO
00:27:17YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT YOUR STUPID STATES? THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.
00:27:19THEY'RE JUST THEY'RE FICTIONS. THEY'RE JUST LINES ON PAPER. PEOPLE MATTER.
00:27:23PEOPLE. THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD COUNT IN DETERMINING REPRESENTATION IN
00:27:27GOVERNMENT ARE PEOPLE. RIGHT? THIS IS JOHN SAID EARLIER, ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE, PROPORTIONAL
00:27:32REPRESENTATION. AND JAMES WILSON IS THE MAN BEHIND THAT IDEA MORE THAN
00:27:35ANYONE ELSE AT THE CONVENTION.
00:27:37IN FACT, WHEN THE SUPREME COURT, 200 YEARS LATER, IN A SERIES OF
00:27:42CASES, ADOPTS THE PRINCIPLE OF ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE, THEY CITE TO ONE AUTHORITY, IT'S JAMES
00:27:48WILSON. AND SO IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE
00:27:51HOW PRESCIENT HE IS IN SO MANY
00:27:53WAYS ABOUT THE ARC THAT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WOULD TAKE.
00:27:56HE COULD SEE THAT EXPANSION, THAT EQUALITY, THAT GROWING
00:28:01EGALITARIANISM, THAT THAT MARKS THE COUNTRY WE LIVE IN TODAY.
00:28:03OBVIOUSLY, IT'S FAR FROM PERFECT, BUT FAR MORE EQUAL, FAR
00:28:07MORE INCLUSIVE THAN IT WAS IN
00:28:111787. SO, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE SOME OF
00:28:14THE BIGGEST WAYS IN WHICH HE INFLUENCED THE OUTCOME.
00:28:16AND THEN ONE OTHER, OF COURSE, IS THE PRESIDENCY, WHERE THIS
00:28:20IS, AS I I THINK I WAS SAYING AT
00:28:24THE BEGINNING, I DISCOVERED WILSON WHILE TRYING TO FIND THE
00:28:27ELECTORAL COLLEGE WHEN IT WAS ADOPTED.
00:28:30WILSON IS THE MAN WHO STANDS UP FIRST AND SAYS, WHY ARE WE WHY ARE WE FIGHTING OVER THIS?
00:28:34THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE ELECTED DIRECTLY BY THE PEOPLE THAT'S
00:28:37SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME AND EVERYONE
00:28:38ELSE IS JUST LIKE, NO, THAT'S
00:28:42WE'RE NOT DOING THAT. AND THEY SAID, JAMES, GO BACK. COME UP WITH A BETTER IDEA.
00:28:45HE COMES BACK THE NEXT DAY, BY THE WAY, AND HE PROPOSES
00:28:48SOMETHING THAT IS ALMOST IDENTICAL TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE THAT WE HAVE TODAY.
00:28:54SO EVEN IN EVEN IN DECIDING THINGS THAT HE DIDN'T WANT,
00:28:57WILSON IS ANTICIPATING IN THE FUTURE OF AMERICA IN A WAY THAT
00:29:01ELUDED MANY OF HIS PEERS,
00:29:05EXCELLENT. SO ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE ABOUT THIS BOOK IS BY FOCUSING
00:29:08ON WILSON, I THINK YOU'VE PUT YOURSELF AHEAD OF THE CURVE IN
00:29:11THE FOLLOWING WAY FOR DECADES,
00:29:15HISTORIES OF THE CONVENTION HAVE FOCUSED PRINCIPALLY, ALMOST
00:29:18ENTIRELY ON JAMES MADISON'S
00:29:20NOTES OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE
00:29:24FLOOR IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL
00:29:26CONVENTION MORE RECENTLY, A SERIES OF SCHOLARS HAVE SHIFTED
00:29:30ATTENTION TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE COMMITTEES.
00:29:32IT'S ACTUALLY THE CASE THAT MOST
00:29:35OF THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITU LUTION COMES FROM COMMITTEES AT
00:29:39THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, TOO, IN PARTICULAR THE COMMITTEE OF DETAIL.
00:29:42AND YOU TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK COMMITTEE ITSELF AND COMMITTEE OF STYLE, AND JAMES
00:29:46WILSON SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN THE CHIEF ARCHITECT OF THE DRAFT OF
00:29:50THE CONSTITUTION IN THE COMMITTEE OF DETAIL.
00:29:53AND SO I THINK BY FOCUSING ON
00:29:56WILSON, YOU'RE A LONG WITH OTHERS REALLY GETTING OUT YOUR
00:30:00DISSENTING MADISON AND FOCUSING
00:30:04ATTENTION ON SOME OF THE OTHER VERY IMPORTANT FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION, LIKE JAMES WILSON
00:30:08AND GOVERNOR MORRIS AND OTHERS. SO THAT'S WONDERFUL.
00:30:11BUT LET'S NOW TALK ABOUT SLAVERY, BECAUSE AS YOU NOTE IN
00:30:15THE BOOK, SLAVERY AFFECTED
00:30:19ALMOST EVERY SIGNIFICANT DEBATE,
00:30:21EVERY MAJOR COMPROMISE AT THE
00:30:23CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.
00:30:26WILSON SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ANTI-SLAVERY IN HIS BASIC
00:30:29ORIENTATION. THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE FOR THAT.
00:30:33HE ALSO SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE GREAT COMPROMISE OFFICERS
00:30:36AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION
00:30:38WHO WAS WILLING TO ENGAGE IN TRADE OFFS OVER SLAVERY.
00:30:42TELL US ABOUT THIS ASPECT OF WILSON'S LEGACY, HOW YOU
00:30:46GRAPPLED WITH IT IN WRITING THE
00:30:48BOOK AND WHERE YOU SORT OF LAND ON THE QUESTION OF.
00:30:50WILSON YEAH, THIS WAS REALLY HARD. I THINK.
00:30:54I MEAN, WE ALL I THINK
00:30:56BIOGRAPHERS ALWAYS TEND TO FALL IN LOVE WITH THEIR SUBJECT, AND
00:31:00THAT'S JUST AN OCCUPATIONAL HAZARD. AND WILSON IS PRETTY HARD TO
00:31:03FALL IN LOVE WITH. BUT I REALLY DID COME TO SEE HIM
00:31:07IN THIS SORT OF VISIONARY, ALMOST LARGER THAN LIFE WAY.
00:31:10AND YET THE ISSUE OF SLAVERY IS ONE OF, I THINK, THE BIGGEST
00:31:13BLIND SPOTS IN HIS LIFE, ONE OF THE BIGGEST MORAL BLIND SPOTS
00:31:17FOR SURE, IN A LIFE OTHERWISE DEFINED BY THIS COMMITMENT TO
00:31:20EGALITARIANISM, TO TO POPULAR GOVERNMENT, TO HUMAN DIGNITY.
00:31:24HE REALLY, LIKE YOU SAY, HE
00:31:28COMPROMISES HE THIS IS I'M NOT I
00:31:30DEFEND MYSELF IN THE BOOK AGAINST CHARGES OF PRESENTISM
00:31:34BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I'M APPLYING A 21ST CENTURY STANDARD HERE.
00:31:37THERE WERE PLENTY OF PEOPLE AT THE TIME WHO WERE EXTREMELY
00:31:42CLEAR ABOUT THE MORAL PROFANITY OF SLAVE RE, INCLUDING ABIGAIL
00:31:45ADAMS, INCLUDING SLAVERS THEMSELVES.
00:31:48THOMAS JEFFERSON AND GEORGE MASON. YOU KNOW, LUTHER MARTIN.
00:31:52THEY'RE EXTREMELY ELOQUENT ABOUT HOW BAD THIS PRACTICE IS THAT
00:31:55THEY'RE ALL ENGAGED IN. AND WILSON JUST WON'T SAY IT.
00:31:58HE HE IS ANTI-SLAVERY. IT'S TRUE. AND AT THE PENNSYLVANIA
00:32:03RATIFYING CONVENTION, HE DOES. YOU KNOW, HE MAKES A NOD TO IT.
00:32:06HE SAYS, LOOK, WE DID OUR BEST. IT WAS NOT ENOUGH. I AGREE.
00:32:10BUT IT WAS ALL WE COULD. IT WAS ALL WE COULD DO. I HOPE THAT WE'VE LAID THE
00:32:13GROUNDWORK FOR THE END OF SLAVERY DOWN THE ROAD, WHICH
00:32:17THAT MORE OR LESS, YOU KNOW, 600,000 LIVES, GIVE OR TAKE.
00:32:22THEY THEY DID PLUS MILLIONS OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
00:32:26HE YOU KNOW, HE NEVER OPENLY, AT
00:32:28LEAST NOT IN ANY RECORDS THAT I COULD FIND GRAPPLED WITH THE
00:32:32TRUE MORAL OBSCENITY OF THE PRACTICE.
00:32:35AND THAT WAS HARD FOR ME BECAUSE I FELT LIKE WHAT'S WRONG WITH
00:32:39YOU, MAN? LIKE EVERYONE ELSE WAS ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS. YOU KNOW, PHILLIS WHEATLEY, THE
00:32:45AFRICAN-AMERICAN POET, WAS, YOU KNOW, WROTE IN THE LETTER TO SOMEONE, I THINK IN 1774, THE
00:32:49SAME YEARS WILSON'S ESSAY CAME OUT.
00:32:51IT DOESN'T TAKE A PHILOSOPHER TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE DON'T
00:32:54WANT TO BE KEPT IN BONDAGE AND I WAS LIKE, THAT'S WILSON.
00:32:59YOU KNOW, HE HE SHOULD BE READING THAT. I MEAN, HE DIDN'T READ THE
00:33:01LETTER WASN'T HIM, BUT THE POINT IS, LIKE, THIS WAS IN THE AIR.
00:33:05HE COULD HAVE HE COULD HAVE BEEN MORE ELOQUENT ABOUT IT.
00:33:07GOVERNOR MORRIS OF COURSE, WAS EXTREMELY ELOQUENT ABOUT IT.
00:33:11BUT IN THE END, I THINK THEY ALL VALUED THE UNION, THE CREATION
00:33:14OF THE UNION MORE THAN THEY WERE
00:33:18BOTHERED BY THE PRACTICE OF SLAVERY.
00:33:20AND IT WAS JUST A TRADE OFF FOR THEM.
00:33:22I MEAN, THIS IS WHERE I COULD
00:33:24RISK GETTING PRESENT JUST BUT I
00:33:26THINK THEY REALLY SAW THIS THIS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS OF OF THE
00:33:30YOUNG COUNTRY NEEDED TO BE SOLVED.
00:33:33AND THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE IT WAS TO BREAK BREAD WITH THE DEVIL.
00:33:36AND SO THEY DID IT. I, I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S THE
00:33:40BEST ANSWER I CAN COME UP WITH. IF YOU HAVE BETTER THOUGHTS, I'D
00:33:43LOVE TO HEAR THEM, BUT IT REALLY IS JUST THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT
00:33:46COHERENT MORAL ACTORS THE WAY WE WANT THEM TO BE.
00:33:50WELL, THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE.
00:33:52I TEACH A COURSE AT GEORGETOWN
00:33:54CALLED SLAVERY ABOLITION AND THE CONSTITUTION.
00:33:57SO DON'T OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME. I MIGHT TALK AND TALK AND TALK,
00:34:01BUT I'LL JUST SAY THAT IT'S IT'S
00:34:03A COMPLICATED HISTORICAL RECORD. AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY
00:34:07CRITICISMS TO BE MADE OF EVERY ONE OF THE FRAMERS IN
00:34:11PHILADELPHIA, INCLUDING GOVERNOR MORRIS, INCLUDING JAMES WILSON.
00:34:13ON THE OTHER HAND, IT IS THE CASE AND IT'S A MIXED, AMBIGUOUS
00:34:17RECORD. BUT I'LL JUST MAKE A COUPLE OF QUICK POINTS ON THIS.
00:34:20IT IS THE CASE THAT LATER ABOLITIONISTS, WHEN THEY SAW IN
00:34:24THE CONSTITUTION WHAT THEY
00:34:26CONCEIVED TO BE ANTI-SLAVERY
00:34:30ELEMENTS IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BASIS EVEN OF ABOLISHING
00:34:34SLAVERY, THEY TYPICALLY REACHED FOR PROVISIONS THAT JAMES WILSON
00:34:37HAD A LOT TO DO WITH PUTTING INTO THE. IT'S A FAIR POINT.
00:34:40AND GOVERNOR MORRIS, PRINCIPALLY THE PREAMBLE OF THE CONSTITUTION
00:34:43AND THE NECESSARY AND PROPER CLAUSE. SO THOSE WERE THE SORT OF TWO
00:34:47KEY PROVISIONS AND WILSON AND
00:34:51MORRIS WERE THE PEOPLE WHO ARGUABLY WERE RESPONSIVE, ABLE
00:34:54FOR ALWAYS REFERRING TO ENSLAVED PEOPLE AS PERSONS.
00:34:58IF YOU ACTUALLY GO BACK AND SEE
00:35:00WHO PUT THOSE TERMS IN THE
00:35:02CONSTITUTION, THAT AGAIN LATER ABOLITIONISTS IN THE 1830S AND
00:35:0640S AND 50S DREW INSPIRATION IN FROM I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE
00:35:10LIKE FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND OTHERS.
00:35:12IT WAS WILSON SO THAT MAKES THE STORY A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED.
00:35:16IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT THE MOTIVATIONS WERE AT THE TIME AND
00:35:20SO FORTH, BUT I THINK YOU DO A REALLY GREAT JOB IN THE BOOK OF
00:35:23TAKING THIS ON DIRECTLY, NOT AVOIDING THE TOPIC, BUT, YOU
00:35:26KNOW, GRAPPLING WITH IT DIRECTLY. SO THAT'S WILSON ALSO JUST TO
00:35:30JUST TO PUT A POINT ON IT,
00:35:32WILSON IS THE ONE WHO PROPOSES
00:35:35AT THE CONVENTION THE USE OF THE
00:35:383/5 RATIO TO MEASURE THE TWO FOR
00:35:42PURPOSES OF REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS AND TAXATION.
00:35:47HE DIDN'T COME UP WITH THE 3/5 RATIO, BUT HE BROUGHT IT INTO
00:35:51THE CONVENTION FIRST.
00:35:53AND AND AND WAS ONE OF THE ONE
00:35:59OF THE DELEGATES WHO HELPED IT
00:36:01BECOME PART OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT WE HAD.
00:36:04AND THAT WAS IN THERE UNTIL THE 13TH AMENDMENT. YEAH.
00:36:09SO I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS, BUT WE'RE RUNNING A LITTLE BIT, YOU
00:36:13KNOW, INTO OUR TIME HERE. AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE
00:36:15ENOUGH TIME FOR FOR AUDIENCE QUESTIONS.
00:36:18SO I'LL JUST MENTION SOME TOPICS AND I'LL INVITE YOU JUST TO PICK
00:36:21UP WHICHEVER ONE YOU'D LIKE. ONE IS WILSON'S ROLE DURING
00:36:25RATIFICATION, AND YOU WRITE ABOUT THAT. HISTORIANS LIKE BERNARD BAILYN
00:36:29AND GORDON WOOD AND OTHERS HAVE CREDITED WILSON AND WITH A LOT
00:36:31OF THE IDEAS THAT SHAPED THE
00:36:35DEBATE OVER THE CONSTITUTION. SO THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU
00:36:38MIGHT WANT TO ADDRESS. THE OTHER IS THE FACT THAT
00:36:42WILSON SERVED ON THE SUPREME COURT.
00:36:44HE'S THE ONLY PERSON IN AMERICAN HISTORY TO HAVE PERFORMED THE
00:36:48NEAT HAT TRICK OF SIGNING THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE,
00:36:51SIGNING THE CONSTITU AND SERVING ON THE SUPREME COURT.
00:36:55NO ONE WILL EVER DO THAT AGAIN. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S A DONE DEAL.
00:36:57BUT YOU WRITE ABOUT WILSON'S
00:37:01APPOINTMENT TO THE SUPREME COURT. IS DISAPPOINTMENT AT NOT BEING
00:37:03NAMED CHIEF JUSTICE? YES.
00:37:06SO THAT'S A TOPIC STORY. AND THEN THERE'S THE QUESTION OF
00:37:08HIS LAND SPECULATION. YES. THAT IT'S SORT OF HIS ACHILLES
00:37:14HEEL, TO PUT IT MILDLY. SO ANY OF THOSE TOPICS. LET ME TRY TO TAKE IT ALL OF
00:37:16THEM FAIRLY QUICKLY IN THE TIME WE HAVE BEFORE WE MOVE INTO
00:37:20AUDIENCE QUESTIONS THAT RATIFICATION. I JUST WANT TO SAY THERE'S A
00:37:23WHOLE CHAPTER ON THAT TOO. IT IS A FASCINATING MOMENT IN
00:37:27AMERICAN HISTORY AND IT'S KIND OF IT'S REALLY EXCITING TO READ.
00:37:29IF YOU HAVEN'T READ ABOUT IF YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT RATIFICATION, IT'S THRILLING IN A WAY THAT THE
00:37:35CONSTITUTION AND CONVENTION AND THE DRAFTING OF THE DECLARATION
00:37:37ARE NOT THOSE YOU KNOW, THOSE WERE DONE BY SMALL, EXTREMELY
00:37:41SMART, EXTREMELY PERCEPTIVE
00:37:45GROUPS OF ELITE, YOU KNOW, MEN.
00:37:48THE RATIFICATION PROCESS WAS SO MUCH WIDER.
00:37:51IT INCLUDED REGULAR PEOPLE IN
00:37:53ALL OF THE STATES DEBATING IN
00:37:57OPEN CONVENTION. YOU KNOW, PAULINE MAIER'S BOOK,
00:38:00RATIFICATION IS THE IS THE THE
00:38:02ULTIMATE BOOK ON THIS. IT'S JUST SUCH AN INCREDIBLE READ.
00:38:06I MEAN, THEY DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL
00:38:08MEDIA, BUT THEY THEY HAD THE INSULTS.
00:38:11AND IT'S LIKE SO MUCH FUN TO READ THEM. INSULTING EACH OTHER.
00:38:15BUT LIKE IN REALLY KIND OF SUBSTANTIVE WAYS AND ARGUING
00:38:19OVER THINGS THAT WE'RE STILL ARGUING OVER TODAY, THE RELATIVE POWER OF THE STATES AND THE
00:38:22FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE VERSUS THE GOVERNMENT.
00:38:26I MEAN, IT'S JUST IT'S SUCH A IT'S SUCH AN EXCITING THING TO SEE. AND THEY WERE REALLY, REALLY
00:38:30HEARTFELT, EARNEST DEBATES THAT PLAYED OUT.
00:38:32WILSON LEADS THE DEBATE FOR THE PRO CONSTITUTION SIDE IN
00:38:36PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH IS THE FIRST BIG STATE TO CONSIDER THE CONSTITUTION AFTER IT GETS
00:38:40SIGNED IN PHILADELPHIA.
00:38:42YEAH, AND HE IS JUST A STEAMROLL OVER AND I MEAN THAT IN BOTH THE
00:38:45GOOD AND THE BAD WAYS. SO IN THE GOOD WAY HE JUST WOWS THE WHOLE CROWD.
00:38:49HE'S HE GETS UP THERE, HE GIVES THESE INCREDIBLE DAY LONG
00:38:53SPEECHES ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY. I'M JUST GOING TO READ TO YOU
00:38:56THE ONE THAT I THINK IS MOST ASSOCIATED WITH HIM.
00:38:58BUT HE SAYS THIS ISN'T ONE OF HIS DAY LONG SPEECHES.
00:39:02HE SAYS THE TRUTH IS THE SUPREME
00:39:05ABSOLU, BUT AN UNCONTROLLABLE POWER REMAINS IN THE PEOPLE,
00:39:09UNCONTROLLABLE POWER, UNCONTROLLABLE IS BOTH EXCITING
00:39:12AND SOMEWHAT SCARY. WORD. RIGHT.
00:39:15AND HE SAYS AS AS OUR CONSTITUTIONS ARE SUPERIOR TO
00:39:18OUR LEGISLATURE, SO THE PEOPLE
00:39:20ARE SUPERIOR TO THE CONSTITUTIONS, THE CONSEQUENCES.
00:39:24THE PEOPLE MAY CHANGE THEIR
00:39:26CONSTITUTIONS WHENEVER AND HOWEVER THEY PLEASE.
00:39:29THIS IS A RIGHT OF WHICH NO
00:39:30POSITIVE INSTITUTION CAN DEPRIVE THEM. THAT'S A THOSE ARE PRETTY
00:39:34STIRRING WORDS. HE ENDED UP, YOU KNOW, EASILY
00:39:37WINNING THE, YOU KNOW, THE VOTE.
00:39:39YOU KNOW, IT PASSED IN
00:39:41PENNSYLVANIA, I THINK 2 TO 1
00:39:46LIKE 46 TO 23 WAS THE FINAL VOTE. BUT OF COURSE, THE STEAM, THE
00:39:49BAD SIDE OF THE STEAMROLLING WAS THAT THE FEDERALISTS WERE REALLY
00:39:52WERE KIND OF PLAYING HARDBALL TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY AT ONE
00:39:56POINT THE ANTI-FEDERALISTS IN THE PENNSYLVANIA LEGISLATURE DID
00:39:59NOT WANT TO HOLD A VOTE AT ALL. SO THEY ABSCONDED.
00:40:02YOU'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TODAY, RIGHT?
00:40:04I THINK IN TEXAS OR OKLAHOMA.
00:40:08AND THEY THEY THEY THEY LEAVE
00:40:10AND THEY HIDE SO THAT THE LEGISLATURE DOESN'T HAVE A QUORUM.
00:40:16THE SERGEANT AT ARMS OF THE OF THE ASSEMBLY IN PENNSYLVANIA
00:40:19SENT ESSENTIALLY COPS OUT TO GO
00:40:23FIND THEM AND DRAG THEM PHYSICALLY THROUGH THE STREETS BACK TO THE STATE HOUSE, LOCK
00:40:27THEM INSIDE THE STATE HOUSE, AND THEN THEY HAVE THEIR QUORUM TO HOLD THE VOTE AND PASS THE
00:40:32CONSTITUTION. SO I FOUND MYSELF AT TIMES FEELING KIND OF SYMPATHETIC TO
00:40:35THE ANTI-FEDERALISTS. I WAS LIKE, MAYBE I'M AN ANTI FEDERALISTS. THEY'RE THEY'RE MAKING SOME GOOD
00:40:39POINTS HERE AND THEY'RE BEING DRAGGED THROUGH THE STREETS AND LOCKED IN A ROOM TO VOTE ON THE
00:40:43CONSTITUTION. THAT'S NOT IT DOESN'T SEEM VERY DEMOCRAT, RICK.
00:40:46BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS THESE WERE THE FIGHTS THAT WERE HAD. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT THE
00:40:50RATIFICATION PROCESS AND WILSON'S CENTRAL ROLE IN IT IS A
00:40:53FASCINATING ONE WITH REGARD TO THE SUPREME COURT.
00:40:56YES, HE SAT ON THE SUPREME COURT. HE IS APPOINTED TO IT BY GEORGE WASHINGTON.
00:41:00HE WANTS TO BE CHIEF JUSTICE. HE'S VERY CLEAR. HE WRITES A PRIVATE LETTER TO
00:41:04WASHINGTON AND SAYS, SIR, YOU KNOW, PLEASE, YOU KNOW, I THINK
00:41:07IT'S CLEAR THAT I SHOULD BE THE YOU KNOW, I'M THE BEST LAWYER IN AMERICA. I SHOULD BE THE FIRST JUSTICE.
00:41:11AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS AN EMBARRASSING LETTER TO HAVE TO
00:41:14WRITE IF YOU'RE REALLY THE BEST LAWYER IN AMERICA, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ASK, YOU KNOW, TO BE
00:41:19APPOINTED. THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN TODAY. YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK JOHN
00:41:21ROBERTS ASKS TO BE APPOINTED CHIEF JUSTICE.
00:41:25WASHINGTON COMPOUNDED THE INSULT BY WRITING BACK AND SAYING
00:41:28ESSENTIALLY, I'M SORRY, I'M NOT GOING TO BE SWAYED BY THESE
00:41:31KINDS OF REQUESTS. HE ENDS UP APPOINTING JOHN J.
00:41:35TO THE SUPREME COURT TO WILSON'S ENDURING, YOU KNOW,
00:41:38MORTIFICATION. I THINK IN MANY WAYS THIS WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR
00:41:42WILSON, WHERE THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, NINE YEARS OF HIS LIFE
00:41:45ARE THIS SORT OF INCREASING
00:41:49FIXATION WITH LAND SPECULATION AND BUYING LANDS AND JUST SORT
00:41:53OF ALMOST CRAZILY INVOLVED IN THAT.
00:41:55BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO THAT THAT SORT OF TENDENCY WAS ALREADY
00:42:00CLEAR BY 1789. AND I THINK IT'S GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS AND
00:42:03OTHERS WERE WELL AWARE THAT THIS WAS A VULNERABILITY OF WILSON'S.
00:42:06THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF, YOU KNOW, THE
00:42:08UNITED STATES BE, YOU KNOW, BE
00:42:14VULNERABLE IN THIS WAY.
00:42:16SO, JOHN JAY BECOMES CHIEF JUSTICE.
00:42:20YOU KNOW, I THINK WILSON WAS
00:42:23ALSO NOT JUST THE FIRST PERSON TO BE DECLARATION OF
00:42:27INDEPENDENCE, CONSTITUTION SUPREME COURT.
00:42:30HE WAS ALSO, TO DATE, THE FIRST
00:42:32SUPREME COURT JUSTICE TO BE BEHIND BARS.
00:42:36SO WILSON'S LIFE ENDS AS THE
00:42:40BOOK BEGINS IN A BACKROOM OF A
00:42:44TAVERN IN NORTH CAROLINA, A TOWN
00:42:46CALLED EDENTON, NORTH CAROLINA,
00:42:48WHERE HE HAS BEEN IN HIDING FOR
00:42:50NINE MONTHS FROM HIS CREDITORS
00:42:53WHO ARE TRYING TO COLLECT ON ALL
00:42:55THE VARIOUS DEBTS THAT HE OWES
00:42:57AND THE LAW HE HIDES BACK THERE
00:42:59THROUGH AN ENTIRE SUPREME COURT TERM. THE COURT IS SHORTHANDED FOR
00:43:03NEARLY A YEAR BECAUSE WILSON ISN'T THERE. THEY'RE ALL WRITING TO EACH
00:43:07OTHER, SAYING, WHAT DO WE DO? AND HE EVENTUALLY CONTRACTS
00:43:11MALARIA, WHICH IS SOMETHING
00:43:13THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS ENDEMIC TO THE REGION AT THE TIME.
00:43:17AND HE DIES IN THE AT THE VERY,
00:43:21YOU KNOW, AUGUST OF 1798, DIES
00:43:25HIS HIS WIFE IS BY HIS SIDE UNTIL ALMOST THE VERY END. SHE LEAVES BECAUSE SHE CAN'T
00:43:30BEAR WATCHING HIM DIE. JAMES IREDELL, HIS FELLOW
00:43:34JUSTICE AND WHO WHO LIVES IN EATONTON COMES OVER AND STANDS
00:43:37WITH HIM AS HE DOES AS HE PASSES AWAY.
00:43:39AND WHEN HE DIES, THERE'S NO PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT.
00:43:42THERE'S NOTHING. THERE'S NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS SO SICK OF
00:43:45HIM BY THAT POINT. HE HAD HE HAD RUINED SO MANY
00:43:49RELATIONS SHIPS HE HAD TURNED OFF SO MANY PEOPLE. HE WAS NEVER AN EASY PERSON TO LIKE.
00:43:53HE WAS HE WAS AN AWKWARD AND ALOOF GUY. HE WASN'T SORT OF A POLITICALLY
00:43:58SAVVY GUY LIKE MANY OF THE OTHER FRAMERS WERE.
00:44:01HE HE OF COURSE, HE WAS NOT PRESIDENT. HE DIDN'T HOLD THAT SORT OF
00:44:05POLITICAL HIGH OFFICE.
00:44:08BUT THEY WERE SICK OF HIM. AND HE WAS SO HE DISAPPEARED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.
00:44:13AND AS WE ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT, HE HE HE BECOMES TRULY LOST.
00:44:16HE IS THE LOST FOUNDER BECAUSE
00:44:18HE HE HIDES HIMSELF AWAY AND
00:44:20THEN HE BECOMES ESSENTIALLY A GHOST. NOBODY NOBODY MENTIONS HIM.
00:44:24NOBODY TALKS ABOUT HIM FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER CENTURY, A CENTURY
00:44:27AND A HALF UNTIL THE 1960S,
00:44:30REALLY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME ABOLITIONISTS, AS YOU SAY,
00:44:33WHO CITED HIM AND HIS WORK IN
00:44:37THEIR EFFORTS TO END SLAVERY.
00:44:41IT'S A SAD DEMISE. IT'S A SAD END TO HIS LIFE. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK
00:44:45YOU TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK IS, OF COURSE, HIS PAPERS ARE
00:44:49SCATTERED. THEY HAVE BELONGINGS, HAVE TO BE SOLD OFF.
00:44:52HE NEVER GETS THE POST, THE POSTHUMOUS TREATMENT THAT OTHER
00:44:56GREAT FOUNDERS DID THAT GIVE US TODAY SUCH GREAT INSIGHT INTO THEIR LIVES.
00:45:00THE NICE LETTER PRESS EDITIONS
00:45:02OF THEIR COLLECTED PAPERS AND SO FORTH. WE DON'T HAVE THAT WITH JAMES WEBB.
00:45:05NO, NOT YET. NOT YET. MAYBE. MAYBE WILL WORK. SO WE'RE IT.
00:45:08WE'RE ABOUT 15 MINUTES OUT FROM
00:45:11FROM WINDING DOWN. AND I'D LIKE TO OPEN THINGS UP
00:45:13NOW FOR AUDIENCE QUESTIONS. IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO ASK A
00:45:17QUESTION, PLEASE DO. SO I GUESS WE HAVE A MICROPHONE
00:45:20RIGHT HERE AND IT'S COME UP TO
00:45:23THE MIC AND ASK A QUESTION AND MAYBE, YEAH, I HATE TO START
00:45:27WITH A NOT SO SERIOUS QUESTION, BUT IN TERMS OF LIKE THE POPULAR
00:45:31CULTURE AND JAMES, OFTEN THE FIRST TIME I HEARD OF HIM WAS
00:45:33WHEN I WENT TO SEE THE MUSICAL
00:45:371776 AT THE FORD THEATER EARLIER THIS YEAR. AND HE WAS JUST THIS KIND OF
00:45:41LIKE, LIKE MEALY MOUTHED, WIMPY REPRESENTATIVE.
00:45:45THERE. AND I UNDERSTAND IT WAS ENTIRELY FICTIONAL, BUT I JUST WANTED TO
00:45:50SEE IF YOU KNEW HOW THAT CAME ABOUT, WHETHER IN FACT, IT WAS.
00:45:52I'M REALLY GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. THE EPIGRAPH TO THIS BOOK IS A
00:45:56QUOTE FROM THAT MUSICAL WHERE JAMES WILSON, THE CHARACTER,
00:46:00SAYS TO JOHN DICKINSON, ONE OF THE OTHER FOUNDERS, I'M
00:46:04DIFFERENT FROM YOU, JOHN. I'M DIFFERENT FROM MOST OF THE MEN HERE.
00:46:07I DON'T WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR WHICH, YOU KNOW, ANTICIPATED
00:46:12THE BOOK. OBVIOUSLY, BUT WAS A REFLECTION
00:46:14OF HOW WILSON WAS SEEN THROUGH MOST OF AMERICAN HISTORY.
00:46:18THIS WAS 1776. WHEN DID THAT WAS THAT CAME OUT
00:46:20IN THE LATE 60S OR WAS THAT. YEAH.
00:46:24OKAY. AND WILSON IS YOU KNOW, THAT'S BEEN I THINK WHAT I THINK WHERE
00:46:28HE SHOWS UP MOST NOTABLY IN THE
00:46:31SHOW IS IN HIS WHAT WHAT WHAT
00:46:35YOU KNOW IS FAMOUSLY HIS DITHERING OVER WHETHER TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE.
00:46:39AND AS I SAY IN THE BOOK, I
00:46:41EXPLAIN THE BACKGROUND OF THAT STORY AND IN FACT, HOW HE WAS ACTUALLY QUITE SAVVY IN MAKING
00:46:45SURE PENNSYLVANIA DID VOTE IN
00:46:47FAVOR OF INDEPENDENCE. HE DIDN'T HAVE THAT REPUTATION,
00:46:50THAT REPUTATION DOGGED HIM ALL
00:46:52THE WAY THROUGH TO BROADWAY IN THE 17 IN THE 19 1900S.
00:46:56I MEAN, 1900S. HI, ROB.
00:47:00HEY, JUST SO GREAT. WE'RE SO LOOKING FORWARD TO READ
00:47:04THIS. AND SO I'M HERE WITH CYNTHIA AND WE'VE BEEN LISTENING TO THE JILL LEPORE BOOK ABOUT THE
00:47:08CONSTITUTION. LOTS OF FUN TIDBITS, INCLUDING, BY THE WAY, THAT THAT PENNSYLVANIA VOTE ON
00:47:12RATIFICATION WAS A GERRYMANDER WHERE THE ANTI-FEDERALISTS HAD
00:47:16WON WITH MORE VOTES THAN THE BIGGER MARGIN. SO WE KNEW THE REPRESENTATIVES
00:47:20REPRESENTED MORE PEOPLE IN PENNSYLVANIA. YEAH. YEAH, EXACTLY. YES, THEY DID. THEY MADE THAT CASE IN A
00:47:24SOMEWHAT IRONIC THING, BUT SHE
00:47:26LIFTS UP THAT HE OPPOSED ADDING
00:47:29A BILL OF RIGHTS BECAUSE OF THIS
00:47:31CONCERN ABOUT ENUMERATE AND RIGHTS AND YES, OTHERS.
00:47:35AND AND JUST AS A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT SORT OF THINKING ABOUT LIKE, WELL, WHAT WOULD IT
00:47:38BE IF WE HADN'T HAD A BILL OF RIGHTS, YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK
00:47:41HE WAS WRONG ON THAT? DID HE COME TO THINK HE WAS WRONG?
00:47:45AND AS A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, DID HE HAVE A CHANCE TO KIND OF
00:47:48ENGAGE WITH THE RIGHTS THAT HE THAT IS A A THAT'S A GREAT
00:47:52QUESTION. IT'S A LONG CONVERSATION. WHAT I'LL SAY QUICKLY HERE IS
00:47:56THAT WAS MAYBE THE BIGGEST SINGLE DEBATE OF THE
00:47:58RATIFICATION DEBATES WAS AN OBVIOUSLY IT WAS THE PRICE OF OF
00:48:02PASSING THE CONSTITUTION WAS AN INCLUSION OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
00:48:05SO WILSON LOST THAT FIGHT. HE BELIEVES STRONGLY THAT
00:48:08BECAUSE POWER RESIDES IN THE PEOPLE FUNDAMENTALLY YOU WOULD NEVER WRITE A BILL OF RIGHTS.
00:48:12IT WOULD ACTUALLY UNDERMINE THE WHOLE POINT BECAUSE IT WOULD SAY THAT THERE IS SOME LIST OF
00:48:17RIGHTS AND THEREFORE ANYTHING
00:48:19NOT INCLUDED HERE MIGHT BE
00:48:21REGULATED BY THE GOVERNMENT. AND IN FACT, THE BASELINE FOR
00:48:25HIM WAS THAT THAT ALL THE RIGHTS
00:48:28ARE RESERVED EXCEPT FOR THOSE GIVEN TO THE GOVERNMENT.
00:48:32SO FOR HIM, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YES, HE LOST IT.
00:48:34WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT HAD WE NOT HAD A BILL OF RIGHTS?
00:48:37OH, I KNOW. I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO GO THERE.
00:48:41I'M GOING TO MAKE ONE BRIEF REMARK ABOUT THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND SAY SOMETHING VERY
00:48:46UNCONVENTIONAL. BUT I BELIEVE IT'S TRUE. I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IT. THE REASON THE ORIGINAL
00:48:50CONSTITUTION DIDN'T HAVE A BILL OF RIGHTS WAS SLAVERY, AND IT
00:48:53WAS BECAUSE THE DELEGATES WERE
00:48:56PERFECTLY WELL AWARE THAT THE VERY FIRST PRINCIPLE OF A
00:48:59DECLARATION OF RIGHTS WOULD HAVE
00:49:02BEEN A FREE AND EQUAL CLAUSE OF THE KIND THAT WILSON WROTE IN HIS PAMPHLET.
00:49:06AND THEY WERE AWARE THAT THOSE CLAUSES HAD DONE DIFFERENT WORK
00:49:09IN THE NORTH AND IN THE SOUTH. SO WHEN GEORGE MASON PROPOSED
00:49:12SUCH A CLAUSE IN THE VIRGINIA DECLARATION OF RIGHTS, THE
00:49:16VIRGINIA CONVENTION HAD TO GRIND TO A HALT AND DEBATE FOR THREE
00:49:19DAYS HOW TO WORDSMITH THAT
00:49:22CLAUSE IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE SLAVERY.
00:49:24AND BY CONTRAST, IN STATES LIKE PENNSYLVANIA AND MASSACHUSETTS
00:49:28AND OTHER NORTHERN STATES, THOSE CLAUSES WERE THE BASIS FOR
00:49:33ABOLITION AND THE DELEGATES. I BELIEVE, AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL
00:49:35CONVENTION KNEW THAT TO PUT SUCH A CLAUSE INTO THE CONSTITUTION
00:49:39WAS GOING TO MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE CONSTITUTION
00:49:42TO BE RATIFIED IN BOTH THE NORTH AND IN THE SOUTH.
00:49:46THIS PUT JAMES WILSON IN AN AWKWARD POSITION BECAUSE HE HAD
00:49:49TO GO OUT, AS YOU DESCRIBE, IN HIS FAMOUS STATE HOUSE YARD
00:49:53SPEECH AND DEFEND THE OMISSION OF A BILL OF RIGHTS IN THE
00:49:56CONSTITUTION WITHOUT MENTIONING THE SLAVERY ISSUE.
00:49:59AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THE ARGUMENT UNFOLDED THE WAY IT DID.
00:50:02I, I WON'T GO ON ON THAT POINT, BUT I THINK IT'S A VERY ACTUALLY
00:50:06IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT MOMENT AND IMPORTANT FOR US TO REALIZE JUST
00:50:10HOW PERVASIVE THE SLAVERY ISSUE REALLY WAS IN IN HOW THE
00:50:15CONSTITUTION GOT RATIFIED. THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT IN.
00:50:17SO NEXT QUESTION, PLEASE. HI.
00:50:19SO, JESSE, I'M NATALIE WEXLER, A FELLOW WILSON ENTHUSIAST.
00:50:23GREAT TO MEET YOU AND MEET YOU IN PERSON. FINALLY. AND FIRST OF ALL, I JUST LIKE TO
00:50:26THANK YOU FOR RESCUING WILSON FROM THE ASH HEAP OF HISTORY.
00:50:30AND THIS REALLY EXCELLENT BOOK.
00:50:33BUT I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT HIS VIEWS ON POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY AND
00:50:37I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MAIN ARGUMENTS AGAINST DIRECT ELECTION OF THE PRESIDENT WAS
00:50:41THAT THE PEOPLE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO VOTING, TOO, FOR A DEMAGOGUE.
00:50:45YOU KNOW, THEY SOME MIGHT SAY RECENT HISTORY HAS BORNE OUT
00:50:49THAT FEAR. AND I JUST AND OF COURSE, THE
00:50:53ELECTORAL COLLEGE WAS SUPPOSED TO GUARD AGAINST THAT DIDN'T ALWAYS WORK OUT THAT WAY EITHER.
00:50:57BUT I JUST WONDER, DID WILSON
00:50:58HAVE A SPECIFIC ARGUMENT AGAINST
00:51:01THAT FEAR AND OR WAS IT JUST.
00:51:03WELL, THE PEOPLE ARE JUST INHERENTLY WISE. YEAH.
00:51:06AND ALONG WITH THAT, THOUGH, I'M ALSO WONDERING, AND MAYBE THIS
00:51:08IS ANACHRONISTIC, BUT GIVEN THAT WILSON CAME FROM A COUNTRY WHERE
00:51:14PUBLIC EDUCATION OR EDUCATION WAS MUCH MORE WIDESPREAD SPREAD
00:51:17AND AND IT WAS TRANSFORMATIVE FOR HIS OWN LIFE, DID HE OR DID
00:51:20ANYBODY ELSE SUGGEST EDUCATION AS A SORT OF GUARD AGAINST
00:51:25DEMAGOGUE? RE THOMAS JEFFERSON CERTAINLY DID THAT.
00:51:28I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, NATALIE WEXLER, BY THE
00:51:31WAY, WROTE A WONDERFUL BOOK OF
00:51:34HISTORICAL FICTION OR SEMI
00:51:36FICTION, IN WHICH HE IMAGINES A
00:51:38SORT OF THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE
00:51:40RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN JAMES WILSON, HIS WIFE, HIS SECOND
00:51:43WIFE, HANNAH JAMES IREDELL, HIS FELLOW JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME
00:51:47COURT, AND HIS WIFE, HANNAH. SO THE TWO JAMES IS IN TO HANNAH'S AND THE SORT OF
00:51:51POTENTIALLY ROMANTIC
00:51:55COMPLICATIONS BETWEEN THEM.
00:51:55SHE USED EXTENSIVE DOCUMENTATION
00:51:59OF LETTERS AMONG ALL OF THEM FROM THAT ERA. AND IT'S ALSO AND I RELIED ON
00:52:03THAT BOOK A LOT AS WELL, NOT FOR MY FACTS, BUT FOR MY BUT FOR THE
00:52:09ENERGY AND FOR THE NARRATIVE.
00:52:11I MEAN, I DO THINK WILSON WAS SO
00:52:13KIND OF BULLHEADED LEE ATTACHED TO THIS IDEA THAT ALL PEOPLE HAD
00:52:17EQUAL ACCESS TO TRUTH, THAT THIS WAS REALLY THAT WAS REALLY IT
00:52:20WAS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. HE DID NOT THINK HE THOUGHT THAT
00:52:24THAT THAT IT WAS CLEARLY THE BEST WAY TO CHOOSE A LEADER WAS
00:52:28TO LET THE PEOPLE CHOOSE THAT LEADER AND TO DO SO BY MAJORITY RULE.
00:52:31AND I THINK HE SAYS THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND HE SAYS, YOU
00:52:34KNOW, HE DOESN'T OBVIOUSLY LIKE MANY, HE DOESN'T TRUST
00:52:38LEGISLATURES. HE, YOU KNOW, HE WOULDN'T TRUST
00:52:39AN EXECUTIVE UNBOUND AND SO HE'S
00:52:44CLEARLY IN THE CAMP OF THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
00:52:47YOU LET THE PEOPLE MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE.
00:52:51I THINK THAT'S I DON'T THINK IS AND I DO THINK YOU'RE RIGHT THAT
00:52:54IT COMES FROM THAT SORT OF A
00:52:58SCOTTISH OPTIMISM, THE SENSE OF
00:53:00EVERYBODY, EVERYBODY, BOTH IS
00:53:03BOTH HAS THAT CAPACITY AND IS
00:53:05DESERVING OF THAT OF THAT EQUALITY.
00:53:11I WOULD. WERE YOU GOING TO WOULD YOU LIKE JEFF'S QUESTION? I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION. YEAH.
00:53:15SO DID WILSON EVER RECOGNIZE THAT WE THE PEOPLE INCLUDED
00:53:19WOMEN ALSO? A GREAT QUESTION.
00:53:22NO, NOT NOT FORMALLY.
00:53:24WILSON WAS, I THINK THROUGHOUT
00:53:28HIS LIFE FAR MORE. I DON'T HESITATE TO USE THE WORD
00:53:30FEMINIST BECAUSE BUT FOR SOMEONE
00:53:34OF HIS FOR A MAN OF THAT ERA, HE
00:53:36WAS FAR MORE SOLICITOUS OF
00:53:40WOMEN'S INVOLVEMENT IN PUBLIC
00:53:43LIFE THAN MANY OF THE OTHERS, WHERE HE WROTE. ONE OF THE PASSAGES EARLY IN THE
00:53:47BOOK IS WHEN HE HE BASICALLY HIS
00:53:49FIRST WRITING IN AMERICA IS NOT THIS ESSAY THAT I TOLD YOU ALL
00:53:53ABOUT, BUT IT IS THE IT IS
00:53:56BASICALLY A DATING ADVICE COLUMN
00:53:58THAT HE WRITES WITH HIS BEST
00:54:01FRIEND, WILLIAM WHITE, BILLY WHITE. HE CALLS HIM, BUT HE ENDS UP
00:54:04BEING THE REVEREND WILLIAM WHITE, THE FIRST, I THINK
00:54:09EPISCOPAL. MINISTER OF THE PHILADELPHIA BISHOP IN PHILADELPHIA.
00:54:14AND THEY WRITE THIS DATING COLUMN AND THROUGHOUT AND IN THE
00:54:16DATING COLUMN, WHICH THEY CALL THEMSELVES THE VISIT.
00:54:19THAT'S HIS THAT'S HIS ALTER EGO. HE WRITES CONSTANTLY ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE SMARTER THAN MEN.
00:54:23AND HE'D PREFER TO BE HE'D PREFER TO SPEND HIS TIME AROUND
00:54:26WOMEN THAN AROUND PHILOSOPHERS
00:54:28BECAUSE WOMEN PERCEIVE TRUTH
00:54:32MORE DIRECTLY THAN MEN DO. AND SO HE'S QUITE I THINK HE I
00:54:35THINK HE VALUES WOMEN AND THEIR
00:54:38INTELLIGENCE IN A WAY THAT WAS UNUSUAL FOR A MAN OF HIS TIME THAT DIDN'T LEAD TO HIM
00:54:41ADVOCATING, SAY, FOR THE
00:54:43FRANCHISE OR THE SORTS OF THINGS
00:54:47THAT SEEM SECONDHAND TO US TODAY. HOWEVER, I WILL SAY THAT THOSE
00:54:51THE IDEALS THAT HE IS PROMOTING
00:54:55ARE USED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. AND I THINK THAT'S KIND OF WHAT
00:54:58I WANTED TO COME AROUND TO HERE,
00:54:59IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WILSON'S IMPRESSIONS ABOUT WHERE AMERICAN
00:55:04DEMOCRACY WAS HEADED IS PART OF WHAT EXCITED ME ABOUT HIM. AND IT'S PART OF WHAT I THINK
00:55:08DEFINES ENDS WHERE WE HAVE GOTTEN TO TODAY.
00:55:11I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS THE OTHER DAY. WE'VE BEEN TO 250.
00:55:14IS THE NUMBER THAT WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? IT'S THE NUMBER THAT WE HAVE
00:55:18QUOTED BACK TO US. AND WE SEE ON SIGNS EVERYWHERE
00:55:22NOW 250TH ANNIVERSARY AND IT IS AN IMPORTANT ANNIVERSARY.
00:55:26BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, OF
00:55:28COURSE, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T
00:55:32UNTIL THE 1960S, RIGHT AROUND THE TIME OF ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE
00:55:35CASES AT THE SUPREME COURT AND THEN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT AND
00:55:39THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT THAT WE BECAME ANYTHING LIKE A TRULY
00:55:45REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. AND SO I WAS THINKING OF THOSE
00:55:49OF US WHO HAVE BEEN BORN SINCE
00:55:52THE VOTING RIGHTS AND CIVIL RIGHTS ACTS, AS IN A SENSE,
00:55:56FIRST GENERATION AMERICANS WHO ARE LIVING IN A COUNTRY THAT
00:56:01DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THEN. WE'RE LIVING IN A IN A WILSONIAN
00:56:05COUNTRY. AND IT'S NOT OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT JUST WILSON.
00:56:06IT WAS THE ABOLITIONISTS AND IT
00:56:09WAS THE SUFFRAGETTES, AND IT WAS THE FREEDOM RIDERS.
00:56:13AND TODAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S IT'S
00:56:16PEOPLE LIKE REPRESENTATIVE
00:56:18RASKIN HERE, WHO IS MY FAVORITE
00:56:21MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND WHO I
00:56:24THINK EMBODIES THE SPIRIT OF JAMES WILSON MORE THAN ANYONE
00:56:28ELSE IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TODAY.
00:56:30AND THAT, TO ME, THAT SORT OF
00:56:33CONTINUATION OF THE INVOKING OF
00:56:35THE IDEAL THAT PEOPLE ARE EQUAL
00:56:37AND THAT PEOPLE HAVE EQUAL POWER
00:56:39AND ARE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY IN GOVERNMENT. THAT IS THE THING THAT HAS
00:56:43GOTTEN US EVEN AS FAR AS WE HAVE OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE IN A PERIOD OF
00:56:46BACKSLIDING RIGHT NOW AND IT'S FRIGHTENING. BUT IT IS.
00:56:51YOU KNOW, WE DID GET HERE THROUGH THE WORK AND THE BLOOD
00:56:54AND THE SWEAT AND THE AND THE
00:56:56DEATHS OF, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
00:56:58BUT MANY OF WHOM CITED EITHER
00:57:02DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, JAMES WILSON AS THEIR INFLUENCE.
00:57:05AND SO IT'S EXCITING TO ME IN
00:57:08THIS MOMENT TO LIVE AND TO THINK ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH HIS
00:57:12VISION CAN HELP GUIDE US INTO THE FUTURE.
00:57:18AND I'LL MAKE ONE FURTHER COMMENT AND THEN GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD, JESSE, AS WE WIND
00:57:22DOWN, THERE'S A HISTORIAN NAMED JAN LEWIS WHO'S WRITTEN ABOUT
00:57:26WILSON'S PROTO FEMINISM, ONE
00:57:28MIGHT SAY, AND IN PARTICULAR HOW HIS EARLY DRAFTS OF THE
00:57:32CONSTITUTION, AGAIN, AS HE WAS SPELLING OUT HOW REPRESENTATION WOULD WORK IN THE NEW
00:57:37CONSTITUTION, HE ACTUALLY USED THE PHRASE REFERRING TO PERSONS
00:57:40OF EVERY AGE, SEX AND CONDITION.
00:57:42SO THE TERM SEX WAS IN WILSON'S
00:57:46DRAFT. IT LATER GOT TAKEN OUT. BUT THE PRINCIPAL POINT HERE TO
00:57:50FOCUS ON IS THAT WILSON FROM THE START AND THROUGHOUT THE CONVENTION THOUGHT
00:57:55REPRESENTATION SHOULD BE BASED ON PEOPLE AND THIS WAS A
00:57:57NON-TRIVIAL POSITION TO TAKE BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE WAS
00:58:01REPRESENTATION WAS BASED ON WEALTH AND MANY OF THE DELEGATES.
00:58:04THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE WAY TO THINK OF THE 3/5 CLAUSE. IT'S A WEALTH MEASURE, NOT A
00:58:08PERSONS MEASURE. BUT WILSON WAS ON ANOTHER SIDE
00:58:10OF THAT QUESTION, AND HE DOES ACTUALLY TRY TO INTRODUCE THE
00:58:14TERM SEX INTO THE CONSTITUTION. AND SHE WRITES ABOUT THIS QUITE WELL.
00:58:18JESSE, LAST QUESTION I'LL ASK
00:58:21FOR YOU AS WE AS WE WIND DOWN AND MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
00:58:24REPRESENTATIVE RASKIN WOULD ALSO BE INTERESTED IN.
00:58:26WILSON OF COURSE, TOOK POSITIONS
00:58:28AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION ABOUT HOW OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD
00:58:31BE STRUCTURED, THAT WE STILL HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE,
00:58:34LIKE POPULAR ELECTION OF THE PRESIDENT.
00:58:37SO YOU MENTIONED THAT HE DEVISES THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, BUT HIS FIRST CHOICE WAS ACTUALLY
00:58:41SOMETHING MORE DEMOCRATIC AND A
00:58:45WELL PROPORTIONED SENATE BASED
00:58:47ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.
00:58:50AND THAT'S, OF COURSE, NOT OUR SYSTEM AT ALL. SO UNDEMOCRATIC FEATURES OF OUR
00:58:54CONSTITUTION ARE THINGS THAT WILSON DIDN'T WANT TO BE IN THE DOCK. THAT'S RIGHT.
00:58:57MAYBE YOU CAN JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND HOW THAT'S
00:59:01INSPIRED YOU IN YOUR WHAT YOU SEE IN WILSON FOR US TODAY.
00:59:04WELL, CLEARLY, I WAS I WAS DRAWN TO WILSON BECAUSE OF THAT
00:59:07RELATION TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE AND THE ELECTION OF THE PRESIDENT.
00:59:09BUT I WILL JUST SAY THE LAST
00:59:12THING I'LL SAY IS HE HE WAS DISGUSTED BY THE SENATE.
00:59:16HE HE THOUGHT IT WAS AN ABOMINATION.
00:59:18HE SAID AGAIN AND AGAIN, THIS IS
00:59:20HE CALLED IT A FUNDAMENTAL AND A
00:59:22PERPETUAL ERROR TO GIVE STATES EQUAL POWER. RIGHT.
00:59:26THIS IS SMUGGLING THE ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION INTO THE
00:59:30CONSTITUTION. IT IS GIVING STATES EQUAL POWER,
00:59:33NO MATTER THE NUMBER OF CITIZENS WHO LIVE THERE, WHICH COMPLETELY
00:59:36EVISCERATES THE IDEA OF PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION. YOU KNOW, HE WAS BARELY GETTING
00:59:40THAT IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AND TODAY IT'S IT'S, YOU KNOW,
00:59:43THAT THAT IS WORSE THAN EVER. BUT THE SENATE TO HIM, IT WAS
00:59:47JUST AN ABOMINATION. HE SAYS THIS IS GOING TO RESULT
00:59:49IN DISEASE, CONVULSIONS AND ULTIMATELY DEATH.
00:59:53YOU KNOW, AND I THINK HE JUST HE WAS A GUY WHO THOUGHT IN FIRST
00:59:57PRINCIPLES AND TO HIM, IF YOU VIOLATE THE FIRST PRINCIPLES IN THE CREATION OF YOUR GOVERNMENT,
01:00:01YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER. AND TO SOME EXTENT, I FEEL LIKE
01:00:04WE ARE NOW REAPING SOME OF THAT
01:00:06250 YEARS LATER AS WE STRUGGLE
01:00:09OVER A COUNTRY THAT IS, YOU
01:00:11KNOW, INCREASINGLY SEPARATED IN
01:00:14WAYS THAT GIVE SMALLER AND SMALLER STATES MORE AND MORE POWER IN THE SENATE, LEADING TO
01:00:19MINORITY RULE, WHICH IS THE CONTRARY OF WHAT JAMES WILSON
01:00:21ARGUED FOR A MAJORITY RULE AND WHAT THE OTHER FOUNDERS CAME AROUND TO ARGUE FOR.
01:00:25SO I REALLY THINK HE'D HE'D HE'D SIT THERE AND LOOK AT ALL OF US
01:00:29TODAY AND OUR SENATE AND OUR ELECTORAL COLLEGE, AND HE'D SAY,
01:00:32I TOLD YOU SO. WELL, THANK YOU, JESSE, FOR
01:00:37WRITING THIS WONDERFUL BOOK, FOR SHARING YOUR RESEARCH AND YOUR WISDOM WITH US.
01:00:40THIS HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION. PLEASE JOIN ME IN THANKING JESSE
01:00:46WHITE.
01:00:52DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL OF C-SPAN ADS, AMERICAN HISTORY PROGRAMS
01:00:55ARE AVAILABLE TO WATCH ONLINE, GO TO C-SPAN,