Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:01. >> IT GIVES THE PEOPLE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK FOR
00:00:04THEMSELVES ON THE ISSUES THEY ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT. >> IT IS A GREAT FORUM AND YOU
00:00:08GET TO TALK TO REAL AMERICANS.
00:00:13>> THIS IS MY FIRST TIME EVER ON
00:00:14C-SPAN.
00:00:18OUR COUNTRY WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE.
00:00:21IF EVERY AMERICAN WOULD WATCH ONE HOUR A WEEK.
00:00:22THEY CAN PICK ONE, TWO OR THREE.
00:00:25>> JOIN US FOR A LIVE THREE HOUR CONVERSATION WITH A VARIETY OF
00:00:27CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERS AND WASHINGTON INFLUENCERS.
00:00:31YOU CAN WATCH WASHINGTON JOURNAL
00:00:35LIVE EVERY MORNING AT 7:00 A.M. EASTERN ON C-SPAN, C-SPAN NOW OR
00:00:38ONLINE ON C-SPAN.ORG.
00:00:49>> DISCOVER AMERICA'S STORY WITH C-SPAN'S NEW AMERICAN HISTORY
00:00:53TIMELINE POSTER. THIS LARGE FOUR AND A HALF FOOT
00:00:56WIDE POSTER EXPLORES THE LIVES AND PUBLIC SERVICE CAREERS OF
00:00:59EVERY U.S. PRESIDENT ALONG WITH KEY HISTORICAL EVENTS, LANDMARK
00:01:03SUPREME COURT CASES, CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND
00:01:06MAJOR TECHNOLOGY MILESTONES
00:01:08THROUGHOUT THE NATION'S HISTORY. THE POSTER ALSO FEATURES A
00:01:11SPECIAL AMERICA 250 SECTION,
00:01:15HIGHLIGHTING THE COUNTRY'S FOUNDING AND THE 250TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES.
00:01:18BRING AMERICAN HISTORY HOME WITH
00:01:21THE C-SPAN AMERICAN HISTORY TIMELINE POSTER.
00:01:25SCAN THE CODE OR VISIT
00:01:26C-SPANSHOP.ORG.
00:01:30>> EN TO THE PANEL. LOIS ROMANO IS A RENOWNED
00:01:32JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR PROVIDING
00:01:35COVERAGE OF NATIONAL POLITICS AND AMERICAN POLITICAL CULTURE.
00:01:39AMONG THE MAJOR OUTLETS FOR WHICH SHE HAS WORKED, THAT INCLUDES WASHINGTON POST AND
00:01:43POLITICO POST CLOSE TO HOME HERE IN GAITHERSBURG.
00:01:46IT WAS HER INTEREST IN THE LIVES OF INFLUENTIAL WOMEN THAT LED
00:01:49HER TO WRITING "AND INCONVENIENT
00:01:53WIDOW". THIS CHRONICLES THE LIFE OF THE MISUNDERSTOOD MARY TODD LINCOLN
00:01:56FROM CHILDHOOD THROUGH HER TIME AS FIRST LADY AND AFTERWARDS.
00:01:59ALL THE WHILE, HIGHLIGHTING THEMES THAT WILL RESONATE EVEN
00:02:02TODAY.
00:02:04TALKING MENTAL HEALTH AND POLITICAL DIVISION AND VIOLENCE.
00:02:09WE ARE TALKING RACIAL TENSION AND GENDER ROLES. WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO TURN
00:02:13IT OVER TO OUR MODERATOR,
00:02:14COLLEEN SHOGREN AN OFFER HERSELF
00:02:19AND THE FIRST WANT TO BE CONFIRMED AS THE NATION'S ARCHIVIST.
00:02:23SO WITH THAT, COLLEEN, TAKE IT AWAY.
00:02:27>> THANK YOU SO MUCH AND WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY HERE AT THE
00:02:30GAITHERSBURG BOOK FESTIVAL. I WILL SAY SOMETHING RIGHT UP
00:02:33FRONT WHICH WILL BECOME EVIDENT THROUGHOUT THE CONVERSATION.
00:02:36THIS IS A FANTASTIC BOOK. I WANTED TO REITERATE THAT YOU
00:02:40SHOULD GO AND BUY IT IF YOU HAVE
00:02:41NOT ALREADY PURCHASED IT AND
00:02:45MAKE SURE THAT LOIS IS ABLE TO SIGN IT.
00:02:47IT IS TREMENDOUS TO READ BUT I
00:02:49THINK IT IS GOING TO BE EXTRAORDINARILY INFLUENTIAL FOR
00:02:52THOSE OF US THAT ARE INTERESTED IN HOW WE THINK ABOUT ABRAHAM
00:02:55LINCOLN.
00:02:59PROBABLY OUR MOST FAMOUS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
00:03:01SO LET'S GET STARTED, LOIS.
00:03:04MARY TODD LINCOLN, YOU COULD
00:03:05HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ALL THE OTHEO
00:03:11CHOOSE FROM. SOME IMPORTANT WOMEN TO CHOOSE
00:03:13FROM. MARY TODD LINCOLN HAS SUCH A
00:03:17TRAGIC STORY. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO WRITE A BOOK ON HER?
00:03:20>> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION AND THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING.
00:03:24AND THANK YOU FOR SHOWING UP.
00:03:28OUR PREVIOUS SPEAKER MODERATOR
00:03:29DID NOT SHOW UP SO WE ARE VERY
00:03:33GRATEFUL. BEFORE I ANSWER THE QUESTION,
00:03:36COLLEEN HAS TAKEN ON THIS INCREDIBLY INTERESTING PROJECT
00:03:39FOR THE 250TH. .IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN IT, IT IS
00:03:42CALLED INPURSUIT.ORG.
00:03:45LOOK IT UP ON THE WEBSITE. SHE GOT ALL THESE INCREDIBLY
00:03:48INTERESTING PEOPLE TO WRITE ESSAYS ON PRESIDENTS AND FIRST
00:03:51LADIES AND SHE GOT EVERY LIVING
00:03:53PRESIDENT AND FIRST LADY TO DO ONE. AND I'M HONORED TO BE INCLUDED
00:03:57IN THAT. IN PURSUIT.
00:04:00PLEASE GO AHEAD AND DO IT.
00:04:03LET ME ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHY MARY TODD LINCOLN?
00:04:07I HAVE COVERED FIRST LADIES.
00:04:10STARTING BACK A LITTLE BIT WITH THE NANCY REAGAN.
00:04:14BUT MOSTLY BARBARA BUSH. A LOT WITH HILLARY CLINTON AND MOVING FORWARD.
00:04:18AND I DID A LOT OF RESEARCH AT THAT TIME.
00:04:22AND THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION OUT THERE ON MARY TODD LINCOLN.
00:04:26AND IT WAS VERY NEGATIVE. WHAT I FOUND OUT, WAS THAT A LOT OF IT WAS WRONG.
00:04:29THAT IT WAS -- HER STORY -- SHE
00:04:36HAD MISSED STEPS. BUT HER STORY, SHE GOT CAUGHT IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THE WAR AND
00:04:40HER STORY WAS WRITTEN BY MEN WHO
00:04:42JUST DIDN'T LIKE HER AND WHO ARE
00:04:45CHALLENGED BY HER AND WHO WERE JEALOUS OF HER.
00:04:47BECAUSE SHE WAS ACTUALLY QUITE
00:04:49CLOSE TO HER HUSBAND EVEN THOUGH
00:04:51A LOT OF BIOGRAPHERS, LATER,
00:04:54THOUGHT SHE WASN'T.
00:04:57THEY HAD A TRUE PARTNERSHIP.
00:04:58AND HERE WE HAVE ONE OF THE MOST
00:05:02CONSEQUENTIAL PRESIDENTS IN
00:05:03HISTORY AND THERE WAS A WOMAN
00:05:07WHO STOOD BESIDE HIM. AND WE DIDN'T HAVE HER STORY.
00:05:10AND I WANTED TO RESTORE HER STORY AND GIVE HER SOME
00:05:11HUMANITY.
00:05:16>> SO WE WON'T BE ABLE TO COVER ALL THE DETAIL IN THE BOOK BUT
00:05:18WE WILL GIVE PEOPLE A VERY GOOD OVERVIEW.
00:05:21LET'S START OUT AT THE BEGINNING.
00:05:25MARY LINCOLN DOES NOT HAVE THE MOST HAPPIEST OF CHILDHOODS.
00:05:28BUT SHE HAS AN UNUSUAL CHILDHOOD. CHILDHOOD.
00:05:31SHE HAS A FATHER THAT READS WALL
00:05:35STONE CRAFT. SHE HANGS OUT WITH HENRY CLAY.
00:05:38SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
00:05:40HOW MARY TODD -- HOW SHE WAS
00:05:44RAISED AND WHAT HER LIFE WAS LIKE BEFORE SHE MEETS ABRAHAM
00:05:48LINCOLN. >> SHE IS RAISED IN LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY WHICH WAS ONE OF THE
00:05:52MOST -- IT IS CALLED THE ATHENS OF THE WEST. IT IS AN INCREDIBLY
00:05:56SOPHISTICATED TOWN. THEIR PAVED ROADS.
00:06:00THERE ARE 17 SHOPS WHERE SHE IS BORN.
00:06:04THERE ARE FIVE NEWSPAPERS. THERE ARE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.
00:06:08AS HELENE SAID, HER FATHER AS A PLAYER. HE IS A BANKER.
00:06:11HE IS THE CLERK OF THE LEGISLATURE. AND HE IS BEST FRIENDS WITH
00:06:14HENRY CLAY, WHO AT THAT TIME,
00:06:19HAD BEEN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AND SECRETARY OF STATE AND HAD
00:06:22RUN FOR PRESIDENT MANY TIMES.
00:06:23AND HER FATHER'S DINNER TABLE,
00:06:28ARE FAIRLY POWERFUL PEOPLE. SHE BECOMES CONSUMED WITH POLITICS AS A TEENAGER.
00:06:32BUT LET ME JUST BACK UP FOR ONE SECOND. SHE ALSO HAS A LOT OF HEART ACHE.
00:06:36HER MOTHER DIES WHEN SHE IS SIX YEARS OLD. HER FATHER HAS SIX KIDS.
00:06:39HE IS DESPERATE TO FIND A MOTHER FOR THESE CHILDREN.
00:06:42SO HE MARRIES SOMEBODY THAT HE
00:06:45MEETS IMMEDIATELY WHO THEN PROCEEDS TO POP OUT NINE MORE
00:06:49CHILDREN. SO MARY IS LITERALLY IN THE
00:06:52MIDDLE OF 14 CHILDREN AND A
00:06:55LITTLE BIT LOST. SO SHE FINDS HER BEARING. SHE IS BRILLIANT.
00:06:59SHE GETS OUT OF THE HOUSE BY
00:07:01GOING TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL LIKE A MILE AWAY. BUT SHE LOVES THE POLITICS OF
00:07:05THE SITUATION.
00:07:07AND YES, THERE WAS FAMILY AROUND
00:07:10AND COUSINS. SHE AT ONE TIME DESCRIBED HER CHILDHOOD AS DESOLATE.
00:07:14AND IT WAS VERY LONELY FOR HER.
00:07:18>> HOW DOES SHE MEET ABRAHAM LINCOLN?
00:07:19TELL US THAT STORY?
00:07:23AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT SHE WAS
00:07:25ALSO DATING STEPHEN DOUGLAS?
00:07:32>> SHE WAS DATING A LOT OF PEOPLE. SHE NEEDS TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE.
00:07:35THEIR INFANTS IN THE HOUSE. SHE IS 20 YEARS OLD.
00:07:38IT IS A BEAUTIFUL HOME ON MAIN STREET IN LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY.
00:07:42SHE IS DONE. THE OLDEST SISTER OF THE FIRST
00:07:46MARRIAGE MARRIES WELL. THE SON OF THE GOVERNOR AND MOVES TO ILLINOIS.
00:07:49AND SHE THEN PROCEEDS, THE
00:07:50SISTER, TO AND BY THE OTHER
00:07:54SISTERS TO FIND HUSBANDS.
00:07:57SO MARY, I THINK MIGHT BE SECOND OR THIRD. SHE MARRIES OFF THE FIRST TWO
00:08:01AND ANOTHER HISTORIAN CALLED
00:08:06ELIZABETH'S HOUSE, A HALFWAY HOUSE FOR UNMARRIED SISTERS.
00:08:09SO MARY TAKES THE TRAIN ROAD.
00:08:11AND AS I SAID, SHE IS 20 YEARS OLD.
00:08:14SHE GOES TO SPRINGFIELD.
00:08:17AND HER SISTER IS WELL-OFF AT THAT POINT.
00:08:19AND I BELIEVE HER HUSBAND AT THAT MOMENT, IN ADDITION TO
00:08:22BEING THE SON OF THE MOST POWERFUL POLITICIAN IN ILLINOIS,
00:08:26IS ALSO A STATE LEGISLATOR.
00:08:29SO THEY WOULD HAVE THESE STORIES AT THEIR HOUSE EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT.
00:08:32OR WHAT IS CALLED THE SALON.
00:08:36AND MARY ARRIVES AND SHE IS THE BELL OF THE BALL. SHE IS NOT A PARTICULARLY
00:08:39BEAUTIFUL WOMAN. BUT SHE WAS ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH
00:08:41AND SHE WAS SMART. AND SHE WAS OUTSPOKEN AND SHE
00:08:45SPOKE FRENCH.
00:08:47AND SHE WOULD GO INTO THIS
00:08:5040-FOOT LIVING ROOM AND BE SURROUNDED BY MEN.
00:08:54CLAMORING FOR HER ATTENTION. AMONG THEM WAS ABRAHAM LINCOLN
00:08:57AND STEPHEN DOUGLAS.
00:09:01>> SO THEY GET MARRIED -- >> WAIT A MINUTE.
00:09:05IT WAS A ROUGH COURTSHIP. >> IT WAS.
00:09:08IT WAS ON AGAIN AND OFF AGAIN AND BACK ON AGAIN.
00:09:11>> LET ME TAKE A MINUTE. THE COURTSHIP WAS PRETTY WILD. THEY GET ENGAGED.
00:09:15AND HE DECIDES THAT SHE IS GOING THROUGH A LOT. HE DECIDES HE DOESN'T WANT TO
00:09:19MARRY HER. AND NOBODY KNOWS REALLY WHAT HE DECIDED THAT.
00:09:23BECAUSE HIS PREVIOUS GIRLFRIEND, HE WASN'T CLEAR HE WANTED TO MARRY HER BUT HE HAD MADE A
00:09:26PROMISE TO HER.
00:09:31THERE IS A FABULOUS LETTER ONE FINDS WHAT HE HASN'T SEEN THE
00:09:33PREVIOUS GIRLFRIEND IN SIX MONTHS AND HE WILL WRITE TO A
00:09:36WOMAN FRIEND AND SAY, IT WAS AWFUL.
00:09:38I SAW HER AND SHE GAINED ALL THIS WEAK. SHE LOST ALL OF HER TEETH.
00:09:42I FELT LIKE I WAS EMBRACING FALSTAFF.
00:09:45BUT HE SAID, I MADE MY PROMISE
00:09:47AND I'M GOING TO MARRY HER. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THAT WOMAN
00:09:51DUMPED HIM.
00:09:54SO NOW HE MEETS MARY.
00:09:57AND FOR SOME REASON -- AND NO ONE IS QUITE SURE WHY HE BROKE IT OFF.
00:10:00THEY DON'T THINK IT WAS ALL ABOUT MARY. THEY THINK HE WAS GOING THROUGH
00:10:03A LOT OF THINGS.
00:10:06AND MAYBE WAS INTIMIDATED BY THE
00:10:09TODD FAMILY AND BY HIS SISTER-IN-LAW'S FAMILY.
00:10:12AND HE KNEW THEY DIDN'T APPROVE OF HIM. HE BREAKS IT OFF.
00:10:1618 MONTHS GO BY AND NEITHER OF THEM FIND ANYONE.
00:10:19AND FINALLY, AFTER 18 MONTHS, A
00:10:22COUPLE OF FRIENDS SAID, WHY WHEN WETRY TO HOOK THEM UP AGAI.
00:10:26THEY REINTRODUCE THEM.
00:10:26THEY START QUIETLY -- I WANT TO
00:10:32SAY SNEAKILY, SEEING EACH OTHER. MARY DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY TO KNOW. SHE PARTICULARLY DID NOT WANT
00:10:36HER FAMILY TO KNOW. BY NOW, THEY JUST DON'T LIKE HIM.
00:10:39SO THEY START DATING AGAIN.
00:10:42DATING IS TOO BIG OF A WORD. THEY START SNEAKING OFF AND
00:10:45MEETING IN THE HOUSE OF A NEWSPAPER PUBLISHER. THIS GOES ON FOR ABOUT FOUR
00:10:49MONTHS. AND THEN ONE DAY, LINCOLN SHOWS
00:10:52UP AT THE MINISTER'S HOUSE AND SAID, I NEED TO GET HITCHED
00:10:55TONIGHT.
00:10:58ROBERT WAS BORN NINE MONTHS LATER.
00:11:00SO YOU FIGURE IT OUT.
00:11:06>> AFTER THEY ARE MARRIED, MARY LINCOLN MEETS SOMEONE WHO WILL
00:11:09BE VERY PIVOTAL IN HER LIFE AND
00:11:11IN PARTICULARLY, IN YOUR STORY
00:11:15OF HER LIFE.
00:11:15HIS NAME IS WILLIAM HERNDON.
00:11:19TELL EVERYBODY WHO TURNED IN --
00:11:24WILLIAM HERNDON WAS AND WHAT IMPACT HE WILL HAVE ON MARY
00:11:26LINCOLN.
00:11:30>> WILLIAM HERNDON WAS LINCOLN'S LAW PARTNER BUT HE WAS AN
00:11:33UNUSUAL LAW PARTNER FOR LINCOLN. LINCOLN BY THAT TIME HAD HAD TWO
00:11:35OTHER LAW PARTNERS THAT WERE EXTREMELY PROMINENT.
00:11:39AND HE WAS ALSO, BY THE TIME THEY WERE MARRIED, HE WAS IN HIS
00:11:4330s AND HE WAS A VERY PROMINENT LAWYER IN THE STATE.
00:11:46A WELL-KNOWN ORDER.
00:11:50HE WANTED TO GO OUT ON HIS OWN.
00:11:52AND HE CHOSE HIS OFFICE CLERK TO BE HIS PARTNER.
00:11:55WILLIAM HERNDON -- HAD NOT EVEN
00:11:58PASS THE BAR EXAM YET. HE WANTED SOMEONE NOT TO
00:12:02OUTSHINE HIM AND MAYBE WOULD KEEP THE BOOKS IN THE OFFICE SO THAT LINCOLN COULD DO EVERYTHING
00:12:06HE WANTED TO DO. AND THE ILLINOIS BAR WAS STUNNED
00:12:10BY THIS. AND NO ONE WAS MORE STONED THAN
00:12:13MARY TODD LINCOLN. BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND
00:12:15WHY HE WOULD TURN TO THIS KID.
00:12:20AND ALSO, WHILE WILLIAM HERNDON
00:12:22WAS VERY SMART, HE HAD A PRETTY ROUGH REPUTATION.
00:12:25HE WAS A DRUNK.
00:12:27HE WAS IN DISCRETE.
00:12:32AND LINCOLN AT ONE TIME HAD TO BAIL HIM OUT OF JAIL.
00:12:35AND LINCOLN, BEING A FAIR
00:12:38PERSON, THEY SPLIT THE FEES, WHICH WAS TALKING TO EVERYBODY.
00:12:42ALL OF THIS COMBINED, MARY WAS JUST HORRIFIED.
00:12:46AND THE WRITTEN MATERIAL ON
00:12:49THIS, INTERVIEWS AND LETTERS,
00:12:52SAID SHE JUST COULDN'T HIDE IT. SHE HELD HIM IN DISDAIN.
00:12:56AND SHE WOULD NOT HAVE HIM TO
00:12:57HER HOME FOR DINNER.
00:13:01AND SO THEREFORE, HE ALSO HATED HER.
00:13:05>> AND HOW WILL THAT MATTER LATER ON? >> IT REALLY MATTERS QUITE A BIT
00:13:09BECAUSE THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE THAT I THINK TO FIND MARY'S
00:13:13LEGACY. ONE IS WILLIAM HERNDON AND THE
00:13:15OTHER IS HER SON, WHICH WE WILL GET TO.
00:13:18BUT HE JUST CAN'T STAND HER. HE IS INDISCRETE ABOUT HER AND
00:13:22HE TELLS STORIES ABOUT HER. HE TELLS ONE STORY ABOUT HOW
00:13:25LINCOLN IS WHEELING THE TWO BABIES WHILE SHE IS IN CHURCH
00:13:29ONE DAY.
00:13:32LINCOLN WENT SPORADICALLY TO CHURCH.
00:13:34BUT THEY HAD A PEW WHEN SHE WENT.
00:13:37AND HE IS READING A BOOK AND WALKING THE IN A CARRIAGE.
00:13:41ONE OF THE KIDS FELL OUT OF THE CARRIAGE AND LINCOLN DIDN'T NOTICE.
00:13:45>> HE WAS NOT THE BEST HUSBAND, RIGHT? >> YES.
00:13:49AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT. PEOPLE SAY SHE WASN'T A GOOD WIFE. HE WAS NOT A GOOD HUSBAND.
00:13:52ONE OF THE KIDS FALLS OUT OF THE CARRIAGE. MARY COMES RUNNING OUT OF CHURCH
00:13:56AND SHE IS SCREAMING LIKE A BANSHEE AND YELLING AT HIM AND
00:14:00FOR SOME REASON, SHE GETS THE BLAME.
00:14:04I MEAN, THE KIDS FALLS OUT OF THE CARRIAGE AND LINCOLN NEVER
00:14:08NOTICES IT UNTIL HE IS A HALF
00:14:08BLOCK AWAY.
00:14:12AND ALL OF HIS FRIENDS AND
00:14:15WILLIAM HERNDON WAS LIKE, ZERO
00:14:17MY GOD DOES THEY CALL IT WOMAN WHIPPED AT THE TIME.
00:14:20HE STOOD THERE AND TOOK IT. AND WILLIAM HERNDON NEVER FORGOT THAT HE NEVER GOT INVITED TO
00:14:24DINNER. AND LATER YOU CAN SEE HIM SEETHING IN HIS LETTERS LIKE
00:14:28EVEN AFTER SHE IS DEAD.
00:14:30HE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW SHE HAD
00:14:33THESE FANCY PARTIES AND ONLY INVITED ARISTOCRATS AND AFTER
00:14:35THE PARTY, SHE WOULD BROWBEAT
00:14:39LINCOLN BECAUSE HE DIDN'T BEHAVE WELL. WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW HE WOULD KNOW THAT.
00:14:42HE NEVER GOT INVITED.
00:14:46SO HE WAS A REAL THORN IN HER SIDE.
00:14:48AND HE DOES AFTER LINCOLN
00:14:51DIED -- DO YOU WANT TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS? ALL RIGHT.
00:14:54AFTER LINCOLN DIES, HE DECIDES
00:14:56HE WILL BE LINCOLN'S BOSWELL. AND HE STARTS COLLECTING ALL
00:15:00THIS INFORMATION ABOUT LINCOLN UP UNTIL THE TIME HE GOES TO THE
00:15:03WHITE HOUSE. AT THE WHITE HOUSE, EVEN LINCOLN
00:15:08DROPS HERNDON. AND HE BECOMES THIS EXPERT EVERYBODY IS QUOTING.
00:15:11AND ALL THE STUFF HE IS RESEARCHING IS ALL NEGATIVE
00:15:16ABOUT MARY. SO HE DECIDES ABOUT SIX MONTHS AFTER LINCOLN DIES, THAT HE IS
00:15:19GOING TO DO A SERIES OF LECTURES
00:15:23BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE DISCIPLINE TO WRITE A BOOK.
00:15:26HIS FIRST LECTURE, HE JUST TOUCHES ON IT.
00:15:27AND HE SAYS IT IS ABOUT LINCOLN'S PERSONALITY.
00:15:30AND HE SAID HE WAS UNHAPPY FOR 23 YEARS. AND YOU REALLY HAD TO BE
00:15:33LISTENING AND REALLY DO THE MATH
00:15:36TO KNOW THAT IS HOW LONG HIS MARRIAGE WAS.
00:15:40AND THEN HIS MOST DAMAGING LECTURE CAME A FEW MONTHS LATER
00:15:44WHERE HE GIVES US LECTURE THAT SAID THAT LINCOLN NEVER ALLOWED
00:15:48TO MARRY AND HE REALLY LOVED THIS OTHER WOMAN WHO HAD DIED 30
00:15:50YEARS PRIOR AND THAT IN FACT, HE
00:15:55NEVER SIGNED HIS LETTERS TO MARY
00:15:59AFFECTIONATELY, LIKE WITH AFFECTION, WHICH OF COURSE HE DID.
00:16:02SO THIS GOES ON FOR 25 YEARS. I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE A BREAK
00:16:04AND TALK -- AND WE CAN COME BACK
00:16:08AND TALK ABOUT HOW HE DID THE DAMAGE. >> SURE. WE WILL MOVE ON.
00:16:11OBVIOUSLY LINCOLN GOES ON TO
00:16:13HAVE A POLITICAL CAREER IN STATE POLITICS. HE IS IN CONGRESS FOR A TERM.
00:16:17HE RUNS FOR THE SENATE.
00:16:21AND EVENTUALLY, BECAUSE OF CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, BECOMES
00:16:25THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE AND FINDS HIMSELF IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:16:29AND THEIR TWO THINGS THAT
00:16:29HAPPENED WHEN MARY LINCOLN IS
00:16:33WAITING TO BECOME THE FIRST LADY AND IN HER EARLY TIME AS FIRST LADY.
00:16:36TWO THINGS I WANT YOU TO TOUCH UPON.
00:16:40BECAUSE IT TARNISHES HER LEGACY.
00:16:40ONE IS THE SHOPPING AND THE
00:16:44SPENDING AND THE OTHER IS THE FACT THAT SHE IS A SOUTHERNER.
00:16:47AND OF COURSE, WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE CIVIL WAR AND
00:16:50PEOPLE ARE ACCUSING HER OF BEING A CONFEDERATE SYMPATHIZER.
00:16:54TALK ABOUT BOTH OF THOSE. THOSE THINGS DOG HER.
00:16:58>> THANK YOU FOR THOSE QUESTIONS. I JUST WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO SAY THIS.
00:17:02MARY THOUGHT IT WAS HER DESTINY TO BE FIRST LADY. SHE SAID EARLY ON IN HER LIFE
00:17:05THAT SHE WAS GOING TO MARRY SOMEBODY DESTINED TO BE PRESIDENT.
00:17:09AND SHE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A CRUSH ON HENRY CLAY BUT HE WAS
00:17:12TOO OLD. SO SHE DECIDED ON LINCOLN.
00:17:14SO THEY ARE ELECTED AND AS
00:17:17COLLEEN SAID, MARY IS FROM A BORDER STATE, WHICH IS SORT OF A
00:17:20SOUTHERN STATE BUT NOT THROWN IN
00:17:25WITH THE CONFEDERACY. SHE ARRIVES IN WASHINGTON AND
00:17:28THE SOUTH JUST DESPISES LINCOLN. IN THE NORTH IS VERY SUSPICIOUS
00:17:32OF LINCOLN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SURE HE IS REALLY ALL IN ON
00:17:36ENDING SAVORY.
00:17:37AND HE WAS A LITTLE SLOW ON THAT.
00:17:41ALL OF THEIR ANIMOSITY, THEY TAKE OUT ON MARY. SHE IS ACCUSED OF BEING A
00:17:44TRAITOR AND A SPY AND OF HOLDING
00:17:46HIM UP ON SAVORY AND SHE
00:17:52ACTUALLY DID NOT HOLD HIM UP. IT WAS LINCOLN HIMSELF WHO DID
00:17:56NOT WANT TO ALIENATE ALL THE
00:17:57SOUTHERN STATES.
00:18:02SO SHE WAS GETTING PUMMELED BY THE SOUTHERN MEDIA WHO WERE SAYING, SHE IS HORRIBLE AND
00:18:06SHE'S A TRAITOR.
00:18:09AND THE NORTHERN MEDIA THAT JUST SAID THAT SHE IS AWFUL AND SHE
00:18:13IS REALLY A SOUTHERNER AND SHE IS HOLDING HIM BACK ON SAVORY.
00:18:17>> WHAT ABOUT THE SHOPPING.
00:18:19>> THE SHOPPING IS COMPLICATED.
00:18:23AND I'M REALLY EMPATHETIC WITH THIS.
00:18:26>> I AM TOO. >> I MEAN, WE ALL UNDERSTAND
00:18:29SHOPPING THERAPY, RIGHT?
00:18:32NOW, NOT THEN, BUT NOW, IT IS A DIAGNOSTIC THING.
00:18:37THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED SHOPPING COMPULSIVE DISORDER.
00:18:40AND SHE DID HAVE THAT. AND PEOPLE WHO SHOP LIKE THAT,
00:18:44THEY REALLY ARE TRYING TO FILL A WRITE IN THEIR LIVES. THERE ARE A MILLION DIFFERENT
00:18:47THINGS YOU COULD DO.
00:18:52YOU COULD BECOME AN ALCOHOL.
00:18:57SHE WAS JUST AN OBSESSIVE SHOPPER.
00:18:59AND SHE DID APPROACH SHOPPING
00:19:04LIKE AN ALCOHOLIC WOULD. SHE WOULD HIDE THE BILLS. SHE WOULD BUY THINGS.
00:19:08SHE WOULD BUY BOXES SHE WOULD NEVER OPEN.
00:19:11AND WHEN HE DIED, SHE WAS IN
00:19:13DEBT BY I THINK IT WAS THE
00:19:17EQUIVALENT OF $100,000. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
00:19:21SHE HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY THAT OFF.
00:19:24WHAT SHE DIDN'T ANTICIPATE WAS THAT THE MEDIA WOULD BE
00:19:27INTERESTED IN HER SHOPPING.
00:19:31I JUST WANT TO SAY, MARY WAS
00:19:34PROBABLY ONE OF THE FIRST MODERN FIRST LADIES. SHE TOOK THIS TRIP TO NEW YORK A
00:19:38MONTH AFTER THE WAR STARTS. SHE TOOK IT WITH THE GENERAL WHO
00:19:42WAS THE HERO AFTER THE WAR STARTED.
00:19:46THIS WAS SO UNUSUAL FOR MARY TO GO OUT AND TAKE A TRIP WITH THE GENERAL TO NEW YORK.
00:19:50DURING THAT TRIP, SHE DID ALL OF
00:19:53THESE AMAZING THINGS. SHE VISITED ENCAMPMENTS AND WENT
00:19:56TO DRILLS AND VISITED A WORSHIP. SHE WENT TO AN ABOLITIONIST
00:19:58CHURCH WHICH WAS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.
00:20:01AND SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN JUST
00:20:06ELEVATED AS THIS INCREDIBLE WOMAN. BUT INSTEAD WHAT HAPPENED, SHE DECIDED TO SHOP ON THE TRIP AS
00:20:10WELL.
00:20:12SO NOW SHE HAS THE ATTENTION OF THE MEDIA WHO ARE SAYING, MY
00:20:16GOD, THIS WOMAN IS GREAT.
00:20:18SHE WENT TO THIS CHURCH AND THIS IS AMAZING.
00:20:21SHE IS TAKING A STAND. SO WE WILL FOLLOW HER INTO THE STORES.
00:20:25AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT. ALL THE GREAT STUFF SHE HAD DONE
00:20:28ON THAT TRIP WAS FORGOTTEN.
00:20:30AND SHE, FROM THAT MOMENT ON,
00:20:33EVERYONE JUST PAID AN ENORMOUS ATTENTION TO HER SHOPPING AND
00:20:36HER DEBT.
00:20:39>> SHE DID HAVE COME WHAT WE
00:20:41WOULD DIAGNOSED, AS MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES AND ILLNESSES
00:20:44THROUGHOUT HER LIFE.
00:20:48SHE LOSES HER SON WILLIE IN 1860 TO IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:20:52IF YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THAT. THAT PUTS HER INTO A DEEP
00:20:56DEPRESSION. AND OF COURSE, ABRAHAM LINCOLN,
00:20:57HER HUSBAND, IS MURDERED WHILE
00:21:01SHE IS HOLDING HIS HAND. WE KNOW THIS.
00:21:04WE KNOW MARY LINCOLN IS WITH HIM WHEN HE DIES.
00:21:08BUT WE DON'T ACTUALLY FOCUS ON WHAT THAT IMPACT IS ON HER.
00:21:12IT IS REALLY GREAT IN YOUR BOOK. YOU OBVIOUSLY COVER THE ASSASSINATION.
00:21:16YOU ALSO COVER IT THROUGH HER
00:21:17EYES AND WHAT SHE SAW.
00:21:20CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE TWO EVENTS AND WHAT EFFECT THAT HAD
00:21:23ON HER MENTAL HEALTH?
00:21:28>> MARY CLEARLY HAD MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. I WILL SAY THIS.
00:21:30THEY COULD HAVE BEEN TACKLED
00:21:33TODAY. ONE OF HER BIGGEST ISSUES WAS
00:21:36VERY HIGH ANXIETY. LINCOLN WAS A DEPRESSIVE AND
00:21:40MARY WAS MANIC. THAT IS HOW THEY GOT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. BECAUSE HE WAS SO THOUGHTFUL AND
00:21:44PENSIVE AND SHE HAD THE MANIA TO PROPEL HIM BECAUSE HE WOULD GO
00:21:48INTO THESE FOLKS. AND ALSO, SHE HAD THIS ANXIETY.
00:21:51AND OVER THE YEARS, IT HAS BEEN
00:21:55REFERRED TO IN ALL THESE BIOGRAPHIES OF HER AS TEMPER. BUT IT WAS REALLY ANXIETY.
00:21:58SHE WOULD HAVE THESE BLOWUPS AND THEN SHE WOULD FORGET ABOUT
00:22:00THEM.
00:22:03SHE ALSO HAD CLEARLY PTSD.
00:22:06AND WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PTSD BACK THEN.
00:22:10SHE LOSES THREE CHILDREN BEFORE ADULTHOOD AND THEN HER HUSBAND IS SHOT IN FRONT OF HER.
00:22:14IT IS REALLY AMAZING THAT THE
00:22:16WOMAN WAS STILL STANDING.
00:22:19WHEN HER SON DIES IN THE WHITE HOUSE, SHE HAS BEEN HANGING ON
00:22:23ALL THESE YEARS. AND LINCOLN HELPED HER. HE WOULD CALM HER DOWN.
00:22:26WHEN HER SON DIES IN THE WHITE
00:22:28HOUSE, IT WAS HER FAVORITE SON,
00:22:32SHE DID TAKE A TURN FOR THE WORSE. IT WAS VERY HARD FOR HER TO
00:22:36RECOVER FROM THAT. HE WAS ONLY 11 YEARS OLD.
00:22:40AND SHE COULDN'T ATTEND ANY OF THE FUNERAL SERVICES OR THE MEMORIAL.
00:22:43SHE STAYED IN HER ROOM AND CRIED. AND SHE WAS STARTING TO COME OUT
00:22:47OF IT. AND LINCOLN WAS KILLED. AND THAT IS WHAT CENTER INTO THE
00:22:50REAL SPIRAL.
00:22:53>> A GOOD PORTION OF THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY THE TIME AFTER
00:22:57LINCOLN'S DEATH. AND SHE GOES ON TO LIVE FOR MANY
00:23:01MANY YEARS. TELL US ABOUT THAT TIME FRAME. AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO BRING
00:23:05IN THE OTHER PERSON THAT YOU REFERRED TO, HER SON, HER
00:23:07SURVIVING SON, ROBERT.
00:23:11>> SO IT WAS JUST TRAGIC HOW MARY WAS TREATED.
00:23:14YOU LOOK AT FIRST LADIES TODAY
00:23:16AND A COUPLE OF THINGS HAPPENED TODAY. FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE TRY TO RISE
00:23:20UP AND SUPPORT THEM. IF THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY, THEIR
00:23:23FRIENDS BUY THEM A HOUSE.
00:23:25AND ALSO, THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S
00:23:28ADVISORS, FOR THE SAKE OF THE
00:23:30PRESIDENT'S LEGACY, WILL FORM A BARRIER AROUND HER TO PROTECT HER.
00:23:34NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. PEOPLE JUST WANTED HER TO GO
00:23:37AWAY, WHICH IS WHERE THE TITLE OF THE BOOK COMES FROM.
00:23:39IT'S LIKE, OKAY, ABRAHAM IS DEAD.
00:23:42NOW YOU NEED TO LEAVE THE STAGE.
00:23:44AND I JUST WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. A COUPLE OF THINGS.
00:23:48LINCOLN DIED. PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THIS BUT HE
00:23:52DIED WITH A LITTLE BIT OF WEALTH. HE DID NOT SPEND A PENNY OF HIS SALARY.
00:23:56BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE A WILL.
00:23:57HE DIED WITH AN ESTATE WORTH
00:24:00ABOUT 1.2 MILLION AT THAT
00:24:05MOMENT. ONE OF HIS CLOSE FRIENDS WAS SITTING ON THE SUPREME COURT AND
00:24:09HE BECAME THE EXECUTOR OF THE ESTATE. IN MY OPINION, THE ESTATE COULD
00:24:12HAVE BEEN SETTLED WITHIN A YEAR. THE EXECUTOR REFUSED TO SETTLE
00:24:16IT. AND LINCOLN HAD ONE DEBT THAT
00:24:18WAS PAID OFF FOR $11 FOR A NEWSPAPER SUBSCRIPTION.
00:24:21HE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE MARY MORE MONEY.
00:24:25SO HE GAVE HER AN ALLOWANCE, OF
00:24:28THE EQUIVALENT OF $50,000 A YEAR TODAY. THINK ABOUT IT.
00:24:32SHE LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE. SHE STILL HAS A CHILD THAT SHE IS RAISING.
00:24:36SHE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY
00:24:37TO BUY A HOUSE.
00:24:42AT THE TIME, NEWSPAPERS ALSO DID SOMETHING CALLED SUBSCRIPTIONS WHERE THEY WOULD TRY TO RAISE
00:24:45MONEY FOR HEROES. IT WAS TRIED.
00:24:49PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO GIVE MONEY TO HER BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT SHE
00:24:52WOULD SPEND IT ON EVENING GOWNS, WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING
00:24:56BECAUSE SHE WAS VIRTUALLY HOMELESS.
00:24:58SO SHE HAD A VERY HARD TIME SURVIVING.
00:25:01SHE IS LIVING OUT OF HOTELS. FINALLY, SHE DECIDES TO GO TO
00:25:05NEW YORK AND SELL HER CLOTHES.
00:25:10NOT REALLY A SCANDAL BUT IT WAS NOT DONE AT THAT TIME.
00:25:14100 YEARS LATER, JACKIE KENNEDY DID IT AND EVERYBODY THOUGHT IT
00:25:16WAS FINE. MARY DOES IT.
00:25:20SHE TAKES A TRAIN TO NEW YORK UNDER A PSEUDO NAME AND HAS HER SEAMSTRESS COME WITH HER.
00:25:23AND IT BECOMES AN INCREDIBLE SCANDAL WHEN EVERYONE FINDS OUT
00:25:27ABOUT IT. 2000 STORIES. THAT IS A LOT OF STORIES FOR
00:25:311875, BEING WRITTEN ABOUT IT.
00:25:35AND SHE IS HUMILIATED.
00:25:37SO SHE LEAVES AND GOES TO EUROPE
00:25:39SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
00:25:44AND BY THE TIME SHE COMES
00:25:48BACK -- SHE COMES BACK FOR A FEW YEARS.
00:25:51SHE LIVES WITH ROBERT A LITTLE BIT. AND SHE DOESN'T GET ALONG WITH HIS WIFE.
00:25:55SO SHE MOVES INTO A HOTEL AND
00:25:59THEN LEAVES IN SEARCH OF A SPIRITUALIST, WHICH DROVE HER
00:26:01SON CRAZY. SHE HAS ONE SON LEFT NOW.
00:26:04AND HE IS OBSESSED WITH HER.
00:26:08BOTH WITH HER SHOPPING AND THE
00:26:12SÉANCES. >> AND HE IS AN UP AND COMER
00:27:17SO HE'S AN UP AND WORRIED ABOUT HIS REPUTATION.
00:27:21HE'S NOT HIS FATHER'S SON, BUT HE THINKS HE IS. HE'S HIS MOTHER'S SON. HE'S MUCH MORE EMOTIONAL. HE CARES ABOUT APPEARANCES, AND SHE'S OUT THERE STILL GETTING ATTENTION BY
00:27:25SELLING HER CLOTHES AND GOING TO SEANCES. SHE FINALLY LEAVES. THE CITY 10 YEARS AFTER LINCOLN'S DEATH, SHE'S IN FLORIDA, AND I BELIEVE SHE HAS AN EPISODE OF
00:27:28PTSD. THERE ARE, THERE ARE, THERE ARE MEMORIES OF HIM EVERYWHERE. HE'S IN SHOP WINDOWS. SHE GETS IT IN HER HEAD. SHE'S ALSO ON MEDICATIONS SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ON.
00:27:32MAYBE SHE HAD A BAD DREAM. SHE DECIDES THAT ROBERT'S DYING. HE'S FINE. HE'S JUST PRACTICING LAW, HAPPY SHE'S IN FLORIDA, DOESN'T REALLY WANT HER TO COME
00:27:36BACK. SHE DECIDES HE'S DYING. SENDS HIM A WIRE, SAYS, DON'T DIE. I'M COMING, AND YOU CAN HAVE MY MONEY. SHE GETS ON A TRAIN AND UM BY THE TIME SHE
00:27:39GETS TO CHICAGO, WHO KNOWS WHAT DRUGS SHE WAS ON SHE WAS DEFINITELY ON A LOT OF SEDATIVES AND HER BEHAVIOR WAS A LITTLE BIT ODD. SHE IS IN A HOTEL, SHE'S STILL SHOPPING. ROBERT
00:27:43GETS WIND THAT THERE WERE STRANGE PEOPLE COMING IN AND OUT OF HOTEL ROOM, WHICH WE THINK ARE THE SPIRITUALISTS AND AFTER ABOUT A MONTH, HE JUST CAN'T
00:27:47TAKE IT ANYMORE AND HE GOES TO HIS FATHER'S FRIENDS AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE COULDN'T TAKE IF IT WAS THE SHOPPING, IF IT WAS THE SPIRITUALIST, BUT WHATEVER IT
00:27:51WAS, PEOPLE WERE SAYING THINGS TO HIM THAT HER BEHAVIOR WAS A LITTLE BIT IDIOSYNCRATIC. HE GOES TO HIS FATHER'S FRIENDS AND HE SAYS WE GOT TO GET HER OFF
00:27:54THE STREET AND SHE'S REALLY NOT BOTHERING ANYONE, AND HE, HE MAKES AN EFFORT TO HAVE HER COMMITTED. AND HE RIGS A TRIAL. AND BASICALLY BY THE TIME HE
00:27:58TOOK OUT A SECRET WARRANT FOR
00:28:02HER ARREST, SAID SHE WAS
00:28:06INSANE -- BY THE TIME MARY IS APPROACHED
00:28:10BY ANOTHER FRIEND OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S, THERE IS A SITTING JURY, THERE IS A JUDGE, AND
00:28:13THERE IS A PACKED COURTROOM AND
00:28:17THIS IS WHAT HER SON DID TO HER. IT'S, IT'S AN INCREDIBLY SAD STORY TO READ, BUT I THINK THE BEST PART OF THE STORY IS, I MEAN, SHE ENDS UP OBVIOUSLY IN
00:28:21A, UH, A MENTAL HOSPITAL IN A,
00:28:23IN A SANATORIUM, BUT TELL US
00:28:26HOW, WHAT HAPPENS WHAT, 4 MONTHS
00:28:30LATER. >> SO SHE'S IN THE SANITARIUM AND SHE'S PRETTY DEPRESSED AND, UM, AND SHE WON'T
00:28:33TALK TO ANYBODY, AND THEY'RE
00:28:40WORRIED ABOUT HER AND A REPORTER SHOWS UP AND FOR GOD KNOWS WHAT REASON THE HEAD OF THE SANITARIUM THINKS IT'S A GOOD
00:28:43IDEA. TO LET THE REPORTER TALK
00:28:46TO MARY. AND MARY ALL OF A SUDDEN HAS
00:28:50SOMEBODY FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD, AND SHE'S SITTING THERE THINKING, WOW, THIS IS
00:28:54AMAZING. THERE'S STUFF GOING ON OUT THERE.
00:28:57AND THE REPORTER IS TRYING TO BE NICE AND THE REPORTER TELLS HER THAT PEOPLE
00:29:00ARE ASKING ABOUT HER AND PEOPLE
00:29:03ARE WORRIED ABOUT HER. ANYWAY, THAT'S ALL MARY NEEDED.
00:29:07SHE ALL OF A SUDDEN SNAPPED OUT
00:29:09OF THIS THING.
00:29:13THIS IS ABOUT SIX WEEKS INTO HER STAY.
00:29:16SHE SNAPS OUT OF WHATEVER SHE'S IN AND SAYS, I'VE GOT TO GET MYSELF OUT OF HERE. AND OH, AND ONE THING ROBERT,
00:29:20AFTER HE GETS HER CONFINED, HE DECIDES TO TAKE AN EXTENDED VACATION IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHICH IS LIKE ONE OF MY FAVORITE
00:29:24STORIES. HE'S LIKE, ALL RIGHT, I'VE GOT HER TUCKED AWAY. SHE
00:29:28CAN'T GET OUT.
00:29:30SHE'S LEGALLY STUCK IN THERE. I'M JUST GOING
00:29:33TO GO TO THE BEACH WITH MY FAMILY.
00:29:37SO MARY WRITES A LETTER TO A COUPLE THAT SHE KNOWS.
00:29:39THEY'RE TWO INCREDIBLY PROMINENT
00:29:43LAWYERS.
00:29:44HE'S A JUDGE, WOMAN'S LAWYER.
00:29:48THEY USED TO BE HER NEIGHBORS. SHE WRITES THEM A LETTER AND KEEP IN MIND ALL THEY
00:29:52KNOW, THEY HAVEN'T SEEN HER NOW FOR SIX WEEKS. ALL THEY KNOW IS
00:29:56THAT SHE'S IN THE SANITARIUM. SHE SAYS, COME TO BELLEVUE TOMORROW AND BRING THE EDITOR OF THE CHICAGO SUN-TIMES WITH YOU. SO IMAGINE GETTING THAT LETTER
00:30:00FROM THE FORMER FIRST LADY WHO'S
00:30:00IN AN INSANE ASYLUM, AND THEY
00:30:06LOOK AT EACH OTHER AND THEY GO, OK, SOMETHING'S UP HERE. UM, SO THEY GO, THEY GET ON A TRAIN AND
00:30:10THEY GO TO NEXT DAY. THEY DID
00:30:14NOT BRING THE EDITOR WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO MAKE SURE SHE WAS COMPOS MENTIS, AND SHE TELLS THEM HER STORY, AND, AND MARY, I MEAN, SHE COULD BE
00:30:17HYSTERICAL SOMETIMES, BUT SHE WAS NOT.
00:30:20SHE WAS COMPLETELY SANE AND SAID, I DON'T BELONG HERE.
00:30:24GET ME OUT OF HERE. AND THEY AGREED WITH HER AND THEY
00:30:28THOUGHT, WHY IS SHE IN HERE?
00:30:31THEY GO TO THE DIRECTOR. THEY SAY, OK, SHE'S A LITTLE BIT OFF, BUT SHE'S NO MORE INSANE THAN I
00:30:35AM. AND SHE, MARY, WITH THE TWO LAWYERS LAUNCHED A PUBLIC RELATIONS CAMPAIGN TO GET MARY OUT OF THE SANITARIUM, ALL THE
00:30:37WHILE, WHILE ROBERT IS SUNNING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.
00:30:41SO HE'S HEARING THESE STORIES, BUT HE, HE'S NOT GETTING IT, YOU KNOW,
00:30:43HE'S NOT GETTING THAT THERE'S
00:30:49REALLY SOME MOMENTUM GOING ON
00:30:51HERE UNTIL HE GETS A LETTER FROM
00:30:54THE HEAD OF THE SANITARIUM.
00:30:59WHO SAYS, OK, I THINK SHE'S DOING
00:31:02REALLY WELL. I THINK MAYBE SHE SHOULD GO VISIT HER SISTER
00:31:06BECAUSE THIS POOR DOCTOR IS NOW, HE, HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE RUNNING A HOME FOR WEALTHY WOMEN WHO ARE
00:31:09UNDER STRESS, AND NOW IT LOOKS
00:31:11LIKE HE'S KEEPING THE WIFE OF
00:31:13ABE HALL LINCOLN A PRISONER.
00:31:17THE LAWYERS ARE THREATENING
00:31:19TO SUE HIM, AND ROBERT WRITES
00:31:23BACK, DO NOT LET HER GO.
00:31:25DO NOT DO THIS -- AND THE GUY IS GOING, I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE,
00:31:29YOU KNOW, JUST COME HOME FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE.
00:31:32WE GOT TO GET HER OUT OF HERE.
00:31:35AND MARY GETS HERE'S OUT, IT WAS
00:31:37JUST AN INCREDIBLE STORY.
00:31:44SHE GETS
00:31:44HERSELF OUT IN 3.5 MONTHS. I
00:31:49>> THAT'S REMARKABLE. I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AND WE'RE GOING TO GO TO THE AUDIENCE HERE PRETTY SOON FOR
00:31:52QUESTIONS FOR LOIS, BUT I WANT
00:31:54TO ASK YOU A QUESTION. SO WE
00:31:57KNOW THAT HERNDON DOES A NUMBER ON HER WITH HIS SPEECHES AND, AND HOW HE CHARACTERIZES HER, AND WE KNOW THAT HER OWN SON, WHAT HE, UM, THE, THE TUMULTUOUS
00:32:01RELATIONSHIP THEY END UP HAVING.
00:32:03BUT IT, IT'S NOT JUST THEM.
00:32:11THERE HAS TO BE OTHERS. THERE'S HISTORIANS WHO THEN PICK UP THE
00:32:15STORY, AND IT IS PASSED DOWN, YOU KNOW, OVER DECADES AND DECADES TO THE POINT WHERE WE HAVE THIS CONCEPTION OF MARY LINCOLN IN OUR HEADS THAT SHE'S, UH, THAT SHE HAD A MENTAL
00:32:19ILLNESS, THAT SHE'S UNSTABLE, ALL THESE OTHER, OTHER THINGS. SO TELL US, HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE GET FROM THERE TO HERE. AND GIVE US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT
00:32:23HISTORIOGRAPHY AND WHY, I MEAN,
00:32:25ULTIMATELY, WHY IS YOUR BOOK SO IMPORTANT?
00:32:29>> SO THIS IS HOW WE GOT FROM THERE TO THE HOTTEST PLAY
00:32:33ON BROADWAY, OH MARY, WHICH HAS
00:32:39MARY AS AN ALCOHOLIC FRUSTRATED CABARET SINGER, AND THE REASON WE GOT HERE IS BECAUSE WE
00:32:42INHERITED THIS NARRATIVE OF
00:32:46MARY THAT ALLOWED ANYONE TO SAY
00:32:48ANYTHING ABOUT HER. SO EARLY BIOGRAPHERS, AND, AND IT GOES TO
00:32:52THIS, UM, MEN DIDN'T, I MEAN BIOGRAPHERS WERE MOSTLY MEN BACK THEN, AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY
00:32:56COVER. FIRST LADIES AND SO WHAT
00:32:59-- COVER FIRST LADIES. AND SO WHAT THEY WOULD DO, WHICH IS A HABIT IN JOURNALISM, ALL OF US DO A
00:33:03LITTLE BIT OF IT, THEY WENT BACK TO THE PREVIOUS STORIES AND YOU
00:33:05KEEP GOING BACK AND YOU KEEP
00:33:14GOING BACK AND YOU COME BACK TO HERNDON AND HIS TWO VOLUME BOOK THAT HE FINALLY WROTE AND THEN YOU COME BACK TO HER SON WHO WAS THE SECRETARY WHO EVENTUALLY
00:33:18BECAME THE SECRETARY OF WAR,
00:33:21HAVING HER COMMITTED AND THAT'S
00:33:23WHERE YOU LAND. AND THEN YOU COME, YOU FIND SOME NUGGETS OF SHE COULD BE UNPLEASANT. SHE WAS
00:33:27A COMPULSIVE SHOPPER, AND SOMEHOW THAT TURNS INTO SHE WAS
00:33:30THIS HUGE BURDEN ON ABRAHAM
00:33:31LINCOLN, WHICH SHE WAS NOT, AND
00:33:37WE WEDNESDAY UP WITH "OH, MARY"
00:33:46ON BROADWAY, THIS IS BY THE WAY,
00:33:52A FABULOUS PLAY.
00:33:54I HAVE TO TELL YOU I'M NO CRITICAL OF IT AT ALL.
00:33:58I MEAN, IT IS FUN.
00:34:03>> IT IS FUNNY.
00:34:07>> IT REALLY IS FUNNY, AND, AND THEY HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS BOOK, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, UM, AND SO I LOOKED BACK ON WHAT HAD
00:34:11BEEN DONE, AND THERE WERE TWO BOOKS THAT I WOULD SAY, UM,
00:34:14TRIED TO REHABILITATE HER. ONE WAS BY RUTH PAINTER RANDALL,
00:34:18WHOSE HUSBAND WAS A FAMOUS
00:34:20LITTLE SCHOLAR. AND RUTH DID HER BOOK IN 1953, UH, LIMITED SCHOLARSHIP AVAILABLE, AND IT
00:34:24WAS AN EXTREMELY SYMPATHETIC BOOK, UH, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY EXPLAIN A LOT OF THIS. AND THEN 35 YEARS AGO, JEAN BAKER DOES AN INCREDIBLY GOOD BOOK, UM, AND
00:34:28WHICH I THINK, UH, WAS THE LAST GREAT, UH, THING WRITTEN ON MARY, AND, AND AS GOOD AS JEAN BAKER'S BOOK IS, SHE DIDN'T HAVE
00:34:32A LOT OF SCHOLARSHIP AVAILABLE
00:34:35TO HER.
00:34:36AND SHE CERTAINLY HAVEN'T
00:34:39DIGITAL RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO
00:34:42HER. >> GREAT.
00:34:46SO SUM IT UP FOR US. WHAT CAN WE LEARN
00:34:49FROM MARY LINCOLN AND, AND
00:34:50YOU'RE GONNA HAVE, YOU'RE IN
00:34:55PURSUIT ESSAY THAT'S GOING TO BE COMING OUT IN A FEW WEEKS, OPPOSITE PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHO'S
00:34:59WRITTEN THE ESSAY ON ABRAHAM LINCOLN, AND WE'RE ASKING ALL OF OUR AUTHORS, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN
00:35:01WE LEARN FROM THIS PERSON'S
00:35:06LIFE? WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THEIR EXPERIENCES IN LEADERSHIP?
00:35:09SO WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM MAR LINCOLN?
00:35:12>> SO NOT ONLY IS THIS A VERY GOOD QUESTION, BUT, UM, COLLEEN INSPIRED ME ON THIS POINT BECAUSE I HADN'T QUITE
00:35:16THOUGHT ABOUT IT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAY THAT WE HAVE FROM MARY, FIRST OF ALL, SHE WAS A VERY CONSEQUENTIAL FIRST LADY, WHICH
00:35:20WE DIDN'T REALLY GET INTO, BUT RESILIENCE, AND YOU CAN'T
00:35:23MEASURE SOMEONE'S RESILIENCE IN
00:35:28REALTIME. YOU CAN ONLY MEASURE SOMEONE'S RESILIENCE LONG AFTER THEY'RE ALIVE OR THEY'VE BEEN
00:35:32THROUGH STUFF. SO HERE WE HAVE A WOMAN WHO'S
00:35:35LOST THREE CHILDREN.
00:35:38WHO'S GONE THROUGH A CIVIL WA
00:35:41THAT 750,000 PEOPLE DIED. HER HUSBAND IS SHOT IN FRONT OF HER,
00:35:45AND SHE LIVES 17 YEARS, AND SHE GETS UP EVERY DAY AND PUTS HER BLACK DRESS ON AND CRIES AND
00:35:48TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF HER LIFE. AND EVERY DAY SHE WISHES SHE
00:35:52WERE DEAD AND SHE JUST WISHES
00:35:56SHE COULD JOIN HIM. AND ONE DAY A SPIRITUALIST TELLS HER THAT
00:35:59HER TIME IS COMING AND SO SHE WRITES HER ALREADY.
00:36:02IT'S AN INCREDIBLE -- I GET
00:36:05CHOKED UP THINKING ABOUT -- IF YOU DO ANYTHING, TRY TO READ THE
00:36:09EPILOGUE OF MY BOOK BECAUSE IT WILL BRING YOU TO TEARS WHEN YOU PUT ALL TOGETHER WHAT SHE HAD GONE THROUGH AND WHAT SHE
00:36:12CONTRIBUTED TO THIS COUNTRY THAT WAS NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED.
00:36:15IT WILL RIP YOUR HEART OUT.
00:36:18>> GREAT, AND ALSO, I WOULD SAY,
00:36:22MAYBE FIRST AMONGST MANY OF FIRST LADIES THAT ARE MISUNDERSTOOD,
00:36:25CORRECT? >> TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD.
00:36:29AND THEN SHE WAS A VER
00:36:33CONTRARY FIRST LADY. I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY THAT.
00:36:37>> SHE WAS THE FIRST MODERN
00:36:39FIRST LADY, RIGHT?
00:36:43>> SHE WAS THE FIRST FIRST LADY
00:36:46THAT BECAME THE FACE OF THE
00:36:49ADMINISTRATION IN THE MIDDLE OF
00:36:52A WAR. AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO ELSE, WELL, ELEANOR ROOSEVELT WE HAD, BUT I
00:36:56MEAN NOBODY PRIOR TO HER, PRIOR TO HER, EVERYBODY WAS JUST THE WHITE HOUSE FIRST LADIES WOULD STAY UPSTAIRS OR THEY WOULD GO
00:36:59TO ELEMENTS. AND SHE BECAME THE FACE OF THE WAR AND SHE
00:37:02BECAME A MEDIA PERSONALITY WHICH
00:37:04NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. >> GREAT, SO
00:37:08WE'RE GOING TO GO TO QUESTIONS, FOR LO IS.
00:37:12SO IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
00:37:14HAND AND WE'LL BRING YOU A
00:37:21MICROPHONE. YES, YES.
00:37:25COMING AROUND.
00:37:31>> COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOUR EXPERIENCE IN JOURNALISM SPARKED
00:37:34YOUR INTEREST OR FLAVORED THE WAYWROTE THIS BOOK?
00:37:38>> YES, I CAN, AND I CAN ALSO
00:37:43ADD TO THAT MY EXPERIENCE AS A WOMAN IN JOURNALISM.
00:37:47I THINK IT PROMPTED ME TO TAKE A
00:37:54VERY DEEP LOOK BUT NOT A TOTALLY ACADEMIC LOOK.
00:37:58SO WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT THE BOOK IS INCREDIBLY SCHOLARLY AND WELL SOURCED, BUT
00:38:01I ALSO, UM, TAKE THE TIME TO TRY TO INTERPRET SOME OF WHAT
00:38:03HAPPENED AND TO PUT MY OWN UM MY
00:38:06OWN INTERPRETATION ON WHAT SHE
00:38:07WENT THROUGH AND I BACK IT UP,
00:38:11WITH SCHOLARSHIP. AND AS A
00:38:13WOMAN JOURNALIST, WE WERE, UM,
00:38:21IT WAS, I CAME, I STOOD ON A LOT
00:38:24OF PEOPLE'S SHOULDERS. I MEAN, I DIDN'T HAVE A BAD TIME, BUT IT WAS NOT, IT WAS NOT EASY COMING
00:38:28UP IN JOURNALISM AS A WOMAN IN
00:38:312 THE 19 EIGHTH AND EARLY 1990'S, AND JUST
00:38:35HAVING THAT EXPERIENCE AND COVERING HIGH PROFILE POLITICIANS AS A WOMAN AND SEEING WHAT MARY HAD GONE THROUGH, DEFINITELY, I WAS ABLE
00:38:39TO FILTER A LOT OF THAT INTO
00:38:42THIS BIOGRAPHY. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, THOUGH.
00:38:44THANK YOU FOR ASKING IT. >> OTHER QUESTIONS? YES.
00:38:47RIGHT OVER HERE, SIR?
00:38:54>> THE STORY THAT I'M MOST FAMILIAR WITH REGARDING, I'M NOT A BIG LINCOLN JUNKIE, BUT THE STORY
00:38:58I'M MOST FAMILIAR WITH ABOUT MARY TODD IS THE STORY ABOUT
00:39:00WHEN LINCOLN WENT DOWN IN 1865
00:39:03TO RICHMOND AND HE WENT OUT ON A
00:39:05RIDE WITH A YOUNG GENERAL AND HE ENDED UP RIDING WITH THE YOUNG
00:39:09GENERAL'S WIFE AND MARY, FROM
00:39:11EVERYTHING I'VE READ, HAD A
00:39:14REAL MELTDOWNOVER THAT.
00:39:18>> SHE HAD A MELTDOWN.
00:39:21>> AND I GUESS WHERE I'M GOING
00:39:25WITH THAT IS -- DO YOU -- ARE
00:39:29THERE GOOD STORIES ABOUT MARY LINCOLN OUT THERE?
00:39:32>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
00:39:37THAT STORY YOU'RE TELLING, SHE
00:39:39HAD A TOTAL MELTDOWN IN
00:39:461865, RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR ENDED.
00:39:49AND WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT SHE LOST HER ABILITY TO CONTROL HER EMOTIONS,
00:39:53AND, I MEAN SHE FELT
00:39:59MARGINALIZED. SHE THOUGHT THE GENERALS' WIVES WERE STEPPING IN
00:40:02FRONT OF HER.
00:40:04IT WAS
00:40:06NOT A GOOD MOMENT FOR HER. SHE
00:40:10HAD MOMENTS LIKE THAT, UM, BUT
00:40:13WHO AMONG US HASN'T?
00:40:16AND SO MY POINT IS, IN WRITING THE BOOK,
00:40:19AND I SAY THIS IN THE BOOK, IS THAT THERE WAS NOT, THERE'S NOT BEEN A WELL-ROUNDED STORY ON
00:40:22HER, SO HER LEGACY WAS INCOMPLETE.
00:40:26YOU CAN RESEARCH ANY PROMINENT PERSON AND WRITE AND WRITE A WHOLE
00:40:29NEGATIVE STORYLINE ON THEM.
00:40:32BUT WHAT HINGES DIDN'T DO IS ROUND OUT HER STORY THAT SHE WAS BASICALLY A VERY GOOD FIRST LADY IN THE TIME OF
00:40:36WAR, WHO LOST BY THE, BY THE
00:40:37TIME THAT EPISODE HAPPENED, SHE
00:40:41HAD LOST TWO CHILDREN. AND SHE WAS PRETTY STRUNG OUT, AND
00:40:44SHE WANTED THE WAR TO BE OVER, AND HER, HER SON, HER LAST SON,
00:40:46UH, WELL, SHE HAD TWO SONS LEFT,
00:40:49WAS NOW SERVING.
00:40:51HE WASN'T IN
00:40:54THE FRONT LINES, BUT SHE DID NOT
00:40:57WANT HIM TO BE THERE. SHE LIVED IN FEAR OF LINCOLN BEING KILLED,
00:41:01UM, AND, AND AGAIN, SHE, SHE HAD MENTAL ILLNESS, AND THAT WAS, THAT WAS NOT HER FINEST MOMENT, BUT I WANTED TO STEP BACK AND, AND JUST DRAW A FULLER PICTURE
00:41:05OF HER, AND I HOPE I AT LEAST
00:41:08TRIED TO DO THAT HERE TODAY. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING
00:41:12HERE WITH US AND
00:41:14CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING THE
00:41:17ARCHIVIST, THAT'S AWESOME.
00:41:19QUESTION, YOU REFERENCED TWO BOOKS THAT YOU SAID WERE
00:41:21ESPECIALLY GOOD ABOUT MARY TODD
00:41:26LINCOLN. I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU
00:41:28THINK OF SOME OF THE HISTORICAL
00:41:32FICTION ABOUT HER, SO I'M THINKING ABOUT COURTING MR.
00:41:35LINCOLN, LOUIS BYARD, WHO HAS BEEN AT THIS FESTIVAL MANY TIMES.
00:41:38I LOVED THAT BOOK. I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW ACCURATE AND WHETHER IT INFORMED ANY OF THAT
00:41:42INFORMED YOUR WORK OR WHETHER IT SHOULD INFORM OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HER AS A PERSON AND A LEADER
00:41:46>> FIRST LET ME SAY THAT THAT BOOK WAS VERY, VERY GOOD, AND I AM A HUGE
00:41:50FAN OF HIS, AND IN FACT, UM, HE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE I TOOK TO LUNCH WHEN I GOT THE BOOK CONTRACT, UM, SO I WOULD
00:41:54HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE BOOK, UM, AND THE BOOK WAS SO GOOD THAT I
00:41:56QUIZZED HIM THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
00:42:03AND SAID IS THIS TRUE, IS THIS TRUE?
00:42:06AND A LOT OF IT WAS TRUE. ONCE
00:42:09IN A WHILE HE WOULD SAY, NO, I
00:42:13TOOK A LITTLE LIBERTY THERE.
00:42:15I THINK THAT WITH ALL FICTION,
00:42:18YOU HAVE TO KIND OF READ
00:42:20IT THROUGH A PRISM, UM, BUT, BUT
00:42:24LOU DOES THE WORK AND HE WOULD
00:42:29SPENDS HOURS AT THE OTHER -- AT
00:42:33THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.
00:42:37AND HE HAD HIS OWN SHELF THERE.
00:42:40AND A LOT OF THE REALLY GOOD HISTORICAL FICTION WRITERS, THERE'S ANOTHER WOMAN. UM, FROM
00:42:44THE 1860S AND I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER, I THINK HER FIRST NAME
00:42:46WAS HONOR, UM, I CAN'T REMEMBER,
00:42:50BUT IT'S, H-O-N-O-R-E, AND SHE
00:42:58WROTE A FEW PIECES OF HISTORICAL FICTION ABOUT MARY, MAYBE WINSLOW, THAT WERE VERY, VERY GOOD AND THEN SHE STARTED WRITING NONFICTION ABOUT MARY IN
00:43:02MAGAZINES BECAUSE SHE WAS SO MOVED BY HER. BUT I WOULD
00:43:06DEFINITELY SAY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO READ SOME FICTION, FIRST OF ALL, LOU IS GREAT, BUT ALSO JUST READ SOME OF THE REVIEWS TO MAKE SURE. BUT THERE'S SO MUCH
00:43:10RICH MATERIAL WITH THE LINCOLNS THAT'S JUST AMAZING THAT YOU KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF MATERIAL TO WORK WITH YOU.
00:43:13THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. >> QUESTION RIGHT HERE.
00:43:17GO AHEAD.
00:43:20>> I JUST WONDER IF TODAY SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED AS BIPOLAR BECAUSE, I MEAN, IN
00:43:24OTHER WORDS, DOES SHE HAVE THESE MOOD SWINGS BEFORE ALL OF THIS DEVASTATING THINGS HAPPENED TO HER WITH HER SONS AND YOU KNOW
00:43:27LINCOLN.
00:43:30>> I'M NOT A DOCTOR, SO I DON'T
00:43:32KNOW BUT MY GUESS IS -- AND I
00:43:36ACTUALLY HAVE A PIECE OUT
00:43:39IN TIME THIS WEEK THAT GOES INTO THIS A LITTLE BIT.
00:43:43MY GUESS IS MY GUESS IS
00:43:57THAT SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN
00:44:00BY POLAR. SHE WOULD HAVE HAD HIGH
00:44:04ANXIETY, UM, SHE WOULD HAVE HAD
00:44:04PTSD, AND SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON PROZAC.
00:44:08BECAUSE OF ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHE HAD COULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH IN, IN A CONTEMPORARY SETTING, AND, AND KEEP IN MIND LINCOLN WAS A REAL
00:44:12DEPRESSIVE, AND IN THE 1840S AND 1950S HE WAS TAKING SOMETHING CALLED THE BLUE PILL WHICH HAD INCREDIBLY HIGH LEVELS OF MERCURY IN IT, AND HE EVEN SAID,
00:44:16I'M GOING TO STOP TAKING THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING ME CROSS. I THINK THEY PROBABLY HAD UPPERS
00:44:18IN THEM, BUT IT WAS BECAUSE HE WIZ SO DOWN ALL THE TIME.
00:44:22THE DIFFERENCE IN HOW THEIR LEGACIES ARE PORTRAYED AND AGAIN LINCOLN WAS THE PRESIDENT AND HE DID END THE WAR, BUT VERY LITTLE THE
00:44:25AGENCY IS GIVEN TO HIS DEPRESSION. IN FACT
00:44:29HISTORIANS THAT DO WRITE ABOUT IT TALK ABOUT IT AS, AS A SENSE OF IT GAVE HIM A SENSE OF MORAL
00:44:31AUTHORITY AGAINST A SENSE OF HUMANITY.
00:44:34IT GAVE MARY A SENSE OF HUGH
00:44:36MANTY AS WELL, I MEAN, AND
00:44:39EMPATHY.
00:44:41THERE'S A REAL DOUBLE STANDARD
00:44:45IN MENTAL HEALTH.
00:44:46I THINK IF ALL OF THIS, WE WOULD
00:44:51HAVE NOT KNOWN AS MUCH AS WE DO ABOUT MARY'S MENTAL HEALTH TODAY BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD HAVE PROTECTED HER, SHE WOULD
00:44:54HAVE HAD A THERAPIST, SHE WOULD
00:44:56HAVE BEEN ON MEDICATION. YES, THE MEDIA WOULD HAVE FERRETED OUT SOME OF THESE
00:45:00OUTBURSTS, BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT SHE WAS UNTREATED, AND, UM,
00:45:02AND THEN PEOPLE JUST STARTE
00:45:05MAKING UP STUFF. IT BECAME EASY TO MAKE UP STUFF
00:45:08ABOUT HER. >> RIGHT HERE?
00:45:11>> SO, I HAD A QUESTION.
00:45:16I'M NOT SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, HAS RECENTLY DONE ANY DEEP DIVE INTO
00:45:19THE HISTORY OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN
00:45:27OR HIS WIFE OR THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
00:45:29I'M FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE HISTORY I READ ABOUT HIM
00:45:33GROWING UP AND THINGS I'VE ENCOUNTERED OVER THE YEARS. I, YOU KNOW, I THINK HE'S A VERY IMPORTANT FIGURE THAT I HAVE
00:45:36GREAT REVERENCE FOR AS AN AMERICAN.
00:45:40BY IN RECENT YEARS, I'M SEEN
00:45:43SEVERAL DIFFERENT SEVERAL
00:45:52DIFFERENT THINGS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASSERTING THAT HE WAS HOMOSEXUAL OR BISEXUAL OR HE HAD THESE
00:45:55RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN, AND I
00:45:58DON'T NECESSARILY THINK THAT
00:46:00THAT WOULD BE A BAD THING WERE IT'S TRUE.
00:46:04BUT I WAS JUST CURIOUS FROM SOMEONE THAT'S KIND OF INVESTIGATED THEIR
00:46:07RELATIONSHIP AND THAT FAMILY,
00:46:09WHAT YOUR TAKE ON THAT IS.
00:46:13DO YOU THINK THERE'S POTENTIALLY ANY LEGITIMACY TO THAT OR NOT
00:46:16>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW.
00:46:19HE HAD -- HE WASN'T
00:46:22MATURE SEXUALLY WHEN THEY GOT MARRIED.
00:46:24I MEAN, HE HAD GONE TO HOUSES OF
00:46:28PROSTITUTION. WHERE SOME OF THIS COME FROM, I
00:46:32THINK, WHEN HE WAS ON THE CIRCUIT AND WHEN HE WAS
00:46:36LIVING IN SPRINGFIELD, HE ROOMED
00:46:37WITH MEN AND THEY WOULD SHARE BEDS.
00:46:40THIS WAS NOT UNCOMMON IN FRONTIER TIMES SO I DON'T KNOW
00:46:44THAT YOU CAN READ THAT MUCH INTO IT.
00:46:47I DO THINK FROM THE WAY
00:46:49THAT THE LINCOLNS WROTE TO EACH OTHER.
00:46:53I DO THINK THEY LONGEDDED FOR EACH OTHER.
00:46:56I THINK THEY HAD AN ACTIVE SEXUAL LIFE AND WHEN THE FIRST SON DIES, SHE
00:47:00GET PREGNANT FROM FIVE MINUTES.
00:47:02I THINK THEY DID REAL FAMILY PLANNING.
00:47:06HE COULD HAVE BEEN BY SEXUAL.
00:47:10I HAVE NO IDEA, BUT I DO THINK IT COMES FROM
00:47:14SOME OF HIS MALE FRIENDSHIPS. HE HAD SOME CLOSE MALE FRIENDSHIPS. WE KNOW HE SLEPT IN THESE
00:47:18ROOMING HOUSES WITH MEN, SO IT'S
00:47:20HARD TO KNOW.
00:47:22>> WITHOUT SPOILING THE BOOK,
00:47:27IF YOU'RE ALLOWED TO, WAS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD TO CUT FROM THE BOOK THAT YOU COULD EITHER TELL US ABOUT NOW OR YOU WOULD HAVE LEFT IN IF YOU WERE
00:47:31ALLOWED MORE PAGES FROM YOUR PUBLISHER? >> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION
00:47:34AND YES, THEY WERE ALWAYS ASKING
00:47:37ME TO CUT STUFF.
00:47:42SO HERE'S WHAT I MIGHT HAVE DONE.
00:47:44AND I CAN'T THINK OF A SPECIFIC
00:47:49INCIDENT THAT GOT LEFT ON THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR. BUT WHAT I GOT REALLY EXCITED ABOUT
00:47:53WAS HOW MUCH WAS AVAILABLE IN CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS AND DIGITALIZED AND YOU CAN, YOU
00:47:56KNOW WHY I WAS EXCITED ABOUT IT BECAUSE I COVERED THIS STUFF AND
00:47:59SO WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, I WAS LIKE THIS IS JUST AMAZING.
00:48:03I MEAN, LOOK AT THESE
00:48:04CONVERSATIONS SHE'S HAVING WITH
00:48:07PEOPLE AND I PUT SO MUCH IN THERE AND THERE WAS JUST AMAZING
00:48:10NEW YORK TIMES, NEW YORK
00:48:14TRIBUNE. THE SPRINGFIELD PAPERS, AND THAT WAS SOME OF THE STUFF THAT SIMON AND SCHUSTER
00:48:18SAID, OH, IT'S A LITTLE TOO MUCH ON THE NEWSPAPER STUFF, AND IF I
00:48:21HAD A, IF I COULD GO BACK AND
00:48:24MAYBE I WILL AT SOME POINT, I
00:48:27WOULD PUT A LOT OF THOSE STORIES
00:48:29IN, AND IT ALSO -- THEY
00:48:32SHOWED -- AND I PUT A LITTLE BIT OF THIS IN THE BOOK -- HOW MEN
00:48:36ROW ABOUT WOMEN AT THE TIME, AND THERE'S THIS ONE STORY
00:48:39WHERE A REPORTER'S INTERVIEWING
00:48:42MARY AT A STATE DINNER AND HE'S
00:48:47TALKING ABOUT HER BEAUTIFUL PORCELAIN ARMS.
00:48:50FIRST OF ALL, THAT COULD NEVER
00:48:52GET IN THE PAPER TODAY.
00:48:56AND I REMEMBER A YOUNG EDITOR AT THE PUBLISHING
00:49:00HOUSE SAID TO ME DON'T YOU THINK WE SHOULD FLAG THIS AND SAY THAT
00:49:02THIS WAS A VERY SEXIST THING TO
00:49:04SAY AND I SAID BUT IT WASN'T THEN.
00:49:07I DON'T WANT TO CALL OUT THE
00:49:09POOR GUY, HE'S DEAD.
00:49:12THAT'S HOW PEOPLE WROTE ABOU
00:49:16PEOPLE. SO THERE'S A LOT OF INTERESTING THINGS LIKE THAT.
00:49:18THE LINCOLN SCHOLARSHIP IS SO
00:49:21FASCINATING AND SO ENDSLESS.
00:49:25YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF IT, IT'S AMAZING.
00:49:28>> ONE MORE QUESTION? VERY QUICK. WE HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE.
00:49:31>> WE HAVE A TIMER, BY THE WAY.
00:49:33THIS GENTLEMAN IS OUR TIMER.
00:49:39HE'S VERY GOOD AT IT.
00:49:46>> YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE MUCH TIME TO ANSWER THIS. I WAS JUST
00:49:50WONDERING IF YOU COULD COMMENT ON HOW SHE HELPED ABRAHAM
00:49:52LINCOLN AT PRESIDENT.
00:49:55YOU SAID SHE WAS VERY HELPFUL.
00:49:58>> YEAH, THAT'S A VERY GOOD
00:50:02QUESTION. LET ME SAY THIS FIRST. SHE, AND I BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL MY HEART, AND I KNOW SOME
00:50:05SCHOLARS WHO WOULD NOT AGRE WITH ME.
00:50:08I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT WITHOUT HER.
00:50:11UM, SHE WAS AN ENGINE AND HE WAS NOT.
00:50:14HE WAS BRILLIANT AND I
00:50:17SAID THIS WHEN I STARTED. SHE
00:50:20WAS THE ENGINE. HE ALSO MARRIED INTO TWO INCREDIBLY PROMINENT
00:50:24FAMILIES, HERS AND HER SISTER-IN-LAW'S, AND HE WAS AN AWKWARD GUY.
00:50:28HE WOULD GO OUT WITH MISMATCHED
00:50:34SOCKS. HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY PRESENCE, AND SHE BROUGHT HIM INTO THIS VERY, UM, ELITE, UM, POLITICAL WORLD. AS FIRST LADY, UM, AND THE STUFF I'M ABOUT TO TELL YOU IS THE
00:50:38SAME STUFF SHE GOT CRITICIZED FOR.
00:50:40SHE MOVES INTO THE WHITE HOUSE
00:50:42AND IT'S A DISASTER.
00:50:45THERE'S PEELING PAINTS.
00:50:48THERE'S RATS EVERYWHERE. THE FURNITURE
00:50:51IS THREADBARE, AND SHE COMPLETELY REFURNISHES IT, AND SHE GOT HIGHLY CRITICIZED FOR SPENDING MONEY, AND I WILL SAY SHE DID NOT SPEND THAT MUCH
00:50:55MONEY. SHE HAD AN ALLOCATION OF ABOUT $20,000 WHICH IS ABOUT $400,000 MUCH LESS THAN ANYBODY. BEFORE HER AND ANYBODY AFTER HER, AND SHE WAS KILLED FOR THAT.
00:50:59SHE ALSO OPENED THE DOORS TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO PUBLIC RECEPTIONS TWICE A WEEK, AND SHE
00:51:02DID THAT AS SORT OF THUMBING HER
00:51:05NOSE AT THE SOUTH TO SAY WE HAVE
00:51:08NOT SHUTDOWN. WE ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
00:51:11SHE GOT CRISISSED FOR THAT.
00:51:13SHE ALSO, AND THIS WAS A
00:51:18DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
00:51:18SHE HAD A VERY INTUITIVE
00:51:22SENSE ABOUT PEOPLE, AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT LINCOLN PUT IN HIS CABINET, UM, WERE A LITTLE
00:51:26BIT TREACHEROUS, BUT HE SMARTLY PUT THEM IN HIS CABINET BECAUSE
00:51:30HE KNEW -- HE FELT HE HAD TO.
00:51:34BUT SHE KEPT HER EAR TO THE GROUND ON ALL OF THIS STUFF, AND ONE OF THEM WAS THE SECRETARY OF STATE,
00:51:38A GUY NAMED SEWARD, AND HE WAS JUST DOUBLE DEALING BEHIND
00:51:42LINCOLN'S BACK FROM THE SECOND HE GOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AND
00:51:46MARY KNEW IT, AND MARY READ ALL THE NEWSPAPERS AND SHE NAGGED AT
00:51:49LINCOLN AND SHE SAID HE'S GOING TO UNDERMINE YOU AND THE FIRST
00:51:52THING THAT HE DID WAS UNDERMINE HIM.
00:51:55HE SAID TO LINCOLN, WHY DON'T YOU LET ME DO ALL THIS
00:51:59STUFF AND YOU BE THE FIGUREHEAD?
00:52:02IT'S A VERY FAMOUS STORY AND
00:52:05LINCOLN SAID, NO, I'VE GOT THIS. UH, AND HERE'S ANOTHER THING, UM, SHE JUST, I'M JUST TRYING TO
00:52:09THINK, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. SHE, UM, SHE WENT TO THE
00:52:12HOSPITALS ALMOST EVERY DAY DURING THE WAR, AND SHE WOULD
00:52:15NOT TAKE REPORTERS WITH HER, AND
00:52:19THE REPORTERS KNEW ABOUT IT, AND THEY COULD HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT, AND IT DIDN'T GET REPORTED
00:52:23TILL MANY YEARS LATER WHEN LETTERS WERE DISCOVERED WHERE
00:52:26SHE WOULD WRITE AND SAY, I'M SITTING AT YOUR SON'S BEDSIDE,
00:52:29AND HE WANTS ME TO LET YOU KNOW. I STILL GET CHOKED UP, HE'S OK
00:52:33AND HE'LL BE HOME SOON AND SHE
00:52:35WENT TO ALL THESE HOSPITALS AND
00:52:38DID 245, AND THEN SHE SENT
00:52:42FOOD TO THEM AND THEN THE LAST THING I'LL MENTION IS THAT UM
00:52:44SHE WAS A SUPPORTER OF THE FREED
00:52:48SLAVES. THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE CONTRABAND SOCIETY, AND SHE WROTE LINCOLN THIS
00:52:51LETTER TO NEW YORK AND SHE SAID
00:52:53WE HAVE TO SEND THEM MONEY. THERE
00:52:56ARE ENCAMPMENTS AND THESE SLAVES, THEY'RE FREE, AND THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO, AND I WANT
00:53:00TO GIVE THEM $200 WHICH WAS
00:53:02PROBABLY A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS IN THAT TIME.
00:53:05SO THERE WAS A LOT SHE WAS
00:53:08DOING THAT WAS NOT REPORTED IN REALTIME.
00:53:11>> IT'S A TERRIFIC BOOK.
00:53:13I JUST DON'T THINK IT.
00:53:16DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN THINKS IT.
00:53:22HAROLD HOLZER THINKS IT. EVERYBODY IN LINCOLN WORLD THINKS IT. SO PLEASE GO OVER AND PURCHASE THE
00:53:26BOOK AND HAVE LOIS SIGN IT, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS
00:53:30AFTERNOON. >> THANK YOU ALL, GREAT
00:53:33QUESTIONS, THANK YOU. [CAPTIONS COPYRIGHT NATIONAL CABLE SATELLITE CORP. 2026] [CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE,
00:53:37WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY. VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> YOU LOOK BACK ON WHAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED IN YOUR LIFE, WHAT
00:53:40MAKES YOU THE HAPPIEST SO FAR?
00:53:42>> LEADERS SEEM TO LIKE TO WEAR WIGS.
00:53:46PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID I MADE A
00:53:48MISTAKE THE FIRST TIME. I SHOULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO YOU
00:53:52THE FIRST TIME. YOUR FIRST BOOK WAS CALLED "A
00:53:55TIME TO KILL."
00:53:57VERY RARE TO SEE DONALD TRUMP LAUGH.
00:54:00>> HE DOESN'T LIKE TO SMILE.
00:54:02HE LIKES THE STARE.
00:54:05>> OH, THERE'S THE AUTHOR. >> ALL THE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE ARE THIS WAY.
00:54:09>> YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT
00:54:11SOMEBODY WHO LIVED WITH WOLVES. >> I INTERVIEWED A GUY WHO LIVED
00:54:15WITH WOLVES, YEAH. >> IS THAT SAFE TO DO THAT?
00:54:19>> ABSOLUTELY NOT. >> I KNOW YOU ARE OPINIONATED
00:54:22ABOUT THIS SITUATION.
00:54:24WHICH IS WAY WE LOVE YOU, DAVID.
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