Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00BRAINSTORM WHEN WHEN I'M STUCK
00:00:03IN MY WRITING, I SOMETIMES SAY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT
00:00:06WRITER'S BLOCK AND I GET STUCK SOMETIMES.
00:00:10AND I JUST GO AND I MAKE A QUILT
00:00:12AND SOME QUILTING.
00:00:14I'M WORKING ON MY ESSAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE WHEN I WAS WRITING
00:00:18HORSE STORY. YEAH, IT'S A BRAIDED ESSAY. AND I WAS GETTING REALLY STUCK
00:00:22WITH THE SECTIONS. I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ORDER IT. AND THEN I STARTED MAKING A
00:00:27QUILT WHERE ALL THE I WAS USING
00:00:29PURPLE AS A THEME AND SO DIFFERENT SHADES OF PURPLE.
00:00:33BUT DIFFERENT FABRIC THAT HAD DIFFERENT TEXTURES AND PRINTS,
00:00:37BUT THEY WERE DIFFERENT SHADES OF PURPLE. AND AS I WAS ARRANGING MY LITTLE
00:00:41SQUARES ON MY QUILT, I REALIZE
00:00:43THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO DO WITH THAT ESSAY.
00:00:47OH, I'M MAKING A QUILT IN THAT ESSAY.
00:00:50AND SO IT'S LIKE, WHAT? THE THEME THAT'S, THAT'S
00:00:54BRINGING ALL THESE LITTLE SQUARES TOGETHER. AND SO THEN AFTER I MADE MY
00:00:58QUILT, I WENT AND I FIXED THE ESSAY, AND THEN IT WORKED.
00:01:02OH, SO, YEAH, DO SOME SEWING. YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF THIS
00:01:07PROGRAM AND ALL OF OUR BOOK PROGRAMS ANY TIME ONLINE AT BOOK
00:01:09TV DOT ORG BOOK TV CONTINUES NOW
00:01:14TELEVISION FOR SERIOUS READERS.
00:01:34MAGGIE HABERMAN.
00:01:37JONATHAN SWAN, IN YOUR NEW BOOK, REGIME CHANGE, YOU DESCRIBE
00:01:41PRESIDENT TRUMP AS, QUOTE, THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL AND FEARED
00:01:45PRESIDENT OF OUR LIFETIMES. WHY DO YOU SAY THAT SEEMS PRETTY
00:01:50INDISPUTABLE TO US. AS WE WERE REPORTING OUT THIS
00:01:53BOOK THAT IT OCCURRED TO US AND THIS IS PART OF THE REASON FOR
00:01:56THE TITLE REGIME CHANGE.
00:01:58WE'RE COVERING A PRESIDENCY THAT IS COMPLETELY UNRECOGNIZABLE TO
00:02:01TERM ONE, BUT ALSO WE CAN'T THINK OF A HISTORICAL ANALOG OF
00:02:05ANOTHER AMERICAN PRESIDENT USING
00:02:07POWER THIS WAY, EXCEPT HANDING
00:02:09POWER THIS WAY IGNORES AN
00:02:12EXTREMELY PLIANT BRANCH OF
00:02:14CONGRESS, LARGELY IGNORING THE SENATE.
00:02:18AND HE HAS USED THREATS AND AND
00:02:20BULLYING OF VARIOUS INDUSTRY YEARS.
00:02:23HE HAS SHOWN THAT THE POST WORLD
00:02:26WAR TWO WORLD ORDER IS IS ON ITS
00:02:28LAST LEGS IF IT'S GOING TO SURVIVE AT ALL.
00:02:31AND WE BOTH HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. SO I CAN'T THINK OF A MORE
00:02:35CONSEQUENTIAL AND IMPACTFUL PERSON OF THE LAST 20 YEARS.
00:02:38I THINK HE WILL BE, BASED ON
00:02:41EVERYTHING WE KNOW GOING FORWARD FOR MANY YEARS TO COME.
00:02:44BUT ANYTHING THAT I MISS THEN, YEAH, I MEAN, THE THE PREMISE OF
00:02:48THE TITLE WAS WE PRETTY EARLY ON
00:02:50COVERING THIS SECOND TERM FELT
00:02:54LIKE WE WERE COVERING A FORM OF
00:02:56REGIME CHANGE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY. YOU KNOW, WE'RE SO USED TO
00:02:59TALKING ABOUT REGIME CHANGE OVERSEAS AND IT'S SORT OF
00:03:03WRITTEN ABOUT ALL THE TIME, YOU
00:03:05KNOW, USUALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF SHOULD THE U.S. BE INVOLVED IN
00:03:08TRYING TO BRING ABOUT REGIME CHANGE OVERSEAS, IT'S MUCH MORE
00:03:13UNCOMFORTABLE. AND IN SOME WAYS MORE
00:03:15CHALLENGING TO COVER IT WHEN IT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR
00:03:19FACE. MAGGIE LAID OUT IN BROAD STROKES.
00:03:22BUT JUST TO GO A LITTLE DEEPER, I MEAN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WAY
00:03:26HE'S USED POWER AND COMPARE IT
00:03:28TO HIS RECENT PREDECESSORS, IT'S
00:03:32QUITE STRIKING. SO TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, FOREIGN POLICY.
00:03:35YOU KNOW, WHEN GEORGE H.W. BUSH
00:03:39WENT FOR THE FIRST GULF WAR, HE WENT THROUGH THE UN SECURITY
00:03:43COUNCIL. THERE WAS A VOTE IN CONGRESS, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, THE BRANCH
00:03:46OF GOVERNMENT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR DECLARING WAR.
00:03:49AND THEN THEY WENT TO WAR WHEN
00:03:52WHEN HIS SON TOOK AMERICA TO WAR
00:03:54IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, IT WENT THROUGH CONGRESS.
00:03:58TRUMP DIDN'T EVEN TALK TO CONGRESS BEFORE HE TOOK AMERICA
00:04:00TO WAR IN IRAN. HE DIDN'T TALK TO CONGRESS
00:04:04BEFORE HE AUTHORIZED THE DELTA FORCE TO GO INTO CARACAS TO TAKE
00:04:07A SNATCH A HEAD OF STATE AND BRING ABOUT REGIME CHANGE IN
00:04:12VENEZUELA. HE UNILATERALLY STARTED A GLOBAL
00:04:15TRADE WAR, AND ONE THING THAT WE WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK THAT I
00:04:18THINK IS A VERY IMPORTANT
00:04:21DYNAMIC IS THAT EVEN WHEN HE IS
00:04:25CHECKED BY THE SUPREME COURT, AND THAT'S REALLY THE ONLY
00:04:29INSTITUTION THAT HAS SHOWN ANY ABILITY TO CHECK HIM, IT'S THE ONLY INSTITUTION THAT THEY
00:04:32REALLY RESPECT DID IT TAKES A
00:04:36WHILE, YOU KNOW, THE FACTS ON THE GROUND GET CHANGED AND THEN
00:04:40THE COURT SYSTEM, WHICH IS NOT BUILT FOR SOMEONE LIKE DONALD
00:04:42TRUMP, WHO ACTS SO QUICKLY ON SO
00:04:44MANY FRONTS, IT'S NOT REALLY BUILT FOR HIM.
00:04:47SO THE TRADE WAR IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.
00:04:49HE USED TARIFFS AUTHORITIES THAT THE SUPREME COURT DEEMED
00:04:54ILLEGITIMATE, BUT A WHOLE LOT OF ECONOMIC TURMOIL AND CHAOS WAS
00:04:58UNLEASHED BEFORE THAT PROCESS COULD CATCH UP TO DONALD TRUMP.
00:05:03SO IN A SENSE, THOUGH, ISN'T HIS
00:05:06ACTIONS IN HIS SECOND TERM A
00:05:09REACTION TO WHAT HE LEARNED IN HIS FIRST TERM? LARGELY, YEAH.
00:05:13I MEAN, WHAT PART OF WHAT WE WRITE ABOUT AT THE BEGINNING OF
00:05:15THE BOOK AND THIS BECAME CLEAR TO US, I JUST WANT TO NOTE THAT
00:05:18I MEAN, WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT THIS BOOK IN REPORTING FOR
00:05:22THIS BOOK IN 2023. AND SO AT THAT POINT, WE WERE IN
00:05:24THE MIDDLE OF A PRIMARY CAMPAIGN
00:05:26IN WHICH DONALD TRUMP WAS INDICTED FOUR TIMES.
00:05:30HE WAS BEING SUED IN CIVIL COURT
00:05:32FOR FRAUD BY THE NEW YORK
00:05:35ATTORNEY GENERAL AND ALSO BY EUGENE CARROLL, A NEW YORK
00:05:37WRITER WHO HAD ACCUSED HIM OF
00:05:39SEXUAL ABUSE AND HE WAS WRITTEN
00:05:45OFF BY A LOT OF HIS PARTY,
00:05:47EXCEPT FOR THE MOST HARDENED
00:05:51MEMBERS OF THE PARTY, WHO ALSO REALIZED THEY NEEDED HIS SUPPORT
00:05:53IN ORDER TO WIN THEIR PRIMARIES. AND HE DIDN'T BACK OFF.
00:05:57HE DIDN'T ACT AS IF HE WAS A PARIAH. THEY WERE HOPING TO SORT OF
00:06:01NON-PERSON HIM. HE WAS KICKED OFF OF SOCIAL
00:06:04MEDIA WEBSITES.
00:06:06HE ALSO WAS UNDER INVESTIGATION
00:06:10FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS LAST TERM.
00:06:11AND IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION THAT STARTED AFTER
00:06:15HE FIRED THE FBI DIRECTOR. AND THAT WAS A HOT STOVE THAT HE
00:06:18TOUCHED AND IT DID REALLY IMPACT
00:06:20A LOT OF WHAT HE DID GOING FORWARD. REMEMBER, THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO HAD NEVER RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL.
00:06:26SO MUCH AS PRESIDENT BEFORE, AND HE WINS THE FIRST TIME.
00:06:28AND HE HAS A THEORY OF HIS OF THE CASE IN HIS MIND OF HOW
00:06:32EXECUTIVE POWER WORKS AND IT LOOKS MUCH MORE LIKE A
00:06:38DEMOCRATIC PARTY MACHINE BOSS IN
00:06:40NEW YORK CITY, WHICH IS WHERE HE
00:06:42LEARNED ABOUT POWER AND BECAME THIS MULTI-DECADE STUDENT OF
00:06:46POWER, THEN IT DOES WHAT WE HAVE
00:06:49SEEN OVER MANY YEARS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES IN THE FEDERAL
00:06:53GOVERNMENT AND PROCESSES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN PLACE.
00:06:55AND WHAT HE AND A SMALL GROUP OF
00:06:59AIDES, STEPHEN MILLER, WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL DOMESTIC
00:07:02POLICY ADVISER THAT WE CAN THINK OF, ARGUABLY IN THE LAST MANY,
00:07:04MANY DECADES, RUSS VOGT, WHO IS NOW THE HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF
00:07:08MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, AND THEN A HANDFUL OF OTHER ADVISORS,
00:07:12THEY LOOKED FOR POCKETS OF INDEPENDENCE THROUGHOUT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH THAT THEY COULD
00:07:16ELIMINATE. THEY LEARNED THAT THEY COULD DECLARE, PARTICULARLY STEPHEN
00:07:20MILLER ON THIS ONE, IF YOU
00:07:22DECLARE EMERGENCIES, YOU CAN
00:07:25UNLOCK SWEEPING POWERS AND VERY QUICKLY AND THEY DON'T GO
00:07:29THROUGH A PROCESS AT AN AGENCY
00:07:31AND THEY LEARNED WHAT IN THEIR
00:07:33MINDS THEY TERM AS LOYALTY.
00:07:35AND THAT IS A REALLY KEY FACTOR THAT WE WRITE ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
00:07:39BUT TRUMP WAS STYMIED THROUGHOUT
00:07:43HIS TERM IN TERM ONE BY A FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY THAT HE
00:07:45DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. HE WAS CONVINCED.
00:07:49AND SOMETIMES THERE WERE IN FACT, PEOPLE TRYING TO SLOW DOWN
00:07:53ACTIONS HE WAS TAKING.
00:07:53BUT HE ALSO WAS INFURIATED BY
00:07:57SENIOR LEVEL AIDES LIKE JOHN
00:07:59KELLY OR JIM MATTIS, WHO REALLY,
00:08:01REALLY OPPOSED HIS WORLD VIEW AND BELIEVED THAT THE COUNTRY NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED FROM
00:08:05TRUMP. AND SO ALL OF THESE LESSONS COMBINED WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN
00:08:09THIS INTERREGNUM PERIOD, INFORM
00:08:12THIS PRESIDENCY THAT YOU'RE SEEING NOW. AND I JUST WANT TO ADD ON TO WHAT JONATHAN WAS SAYING ABOUT
00:08:16CONGRESS AND NOT TAKING ANY OF
00:08:19THESE POLICY MATTERS TO CONGRESS FOR A VOTE.
00:08:22CONGRESS IS ALSO SUPPOSED TO ENGAGE IN OVERSIGHT.
00:08:25AND THIS IS A CONGRESS THAT WITH
00:08:29VERY RARE EXCEPTION. EPSTEIN JEFFREY EPSTEIN WOULD BE
00:08:32AN AREA, THE PRESIDENT'S OWN
00:08:34PERSONAL MONEYMAKER WOULD NOT BE
00:08:36THIS CONGRESS HAS GENERALLY BEGGED OFF OF PERFORMING
00:08:41OVERSIGHT FUNCTIONS AND TREATS ITSELF AS SOMETHING OF AN
00:08:43APPENDAGE TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT PERSONAL
00:08:48MONEYMAKING THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS FAMILY MEMBERS AND SOME
00:08:51MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION
00:08:53HAVE MADE A LOT OF PERSONAL WEALTH DURING THE COURSE OF THIS
00:08:57PRESIDENCY.
00:08:58PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS SONS AND
00:09:02STEVE WYCKOFF AND HIS SON, STEVE WYCKOFF, BEING TRUMP'S ALL
00:09:06PURPOSE ENVOY, SET UP A
00:09:08CRYPTOCURRENCY COMPANY IN 2024, WHICH IS ALSO UNHEARD OF TO DO
00:09:12IN THE MIDDLE OF A CAMPAIGN. WHENEVER THOSE CONVERSATIONS ACTUALLY STARTED, IT GETS
00:09:16UNVEILED IN THE FALL OF 2024. AND THEN AS PRESIDENT TRUMP IS
00:09:20TAKING ACTIONS THAT INVOLVE REGULATING THE VERY AGENTS THAT
00:09:22VERY INDUSTRY, THERE WAS A
00:09:26SECRET DEAL THAT THE WALL STREET
00:09:29JOURNAL UNEARTHED WHERE FOREIGN NATIONALS FROM THE FROM THE GULF
00:09:34NATIONS, ONE IN PARTICULAR, THE EMIRATIS, TOOK A 49% STAKE IN
00:09:38THAT COMPANY A FEW DAYS BEFORE
00:09:41THE INAUGURATION. IT MAKES LOOK, THERE HAVE BEEN
00:09:45PRESIDENTIAL RELATIVES WHO HAVE MADE MONEY, OBVIOUSLY, AND WHO
00:09:47HAVE EMBARRASSED WHITE HOUSES. HUNTER BIDEN, OBVIOUSLY, AS A
00:09:51RECENT EXAMPLE, ROGER CLINTON COMES UP.
00:09:55THERE WERE VARIOUS BUSH FAMILY MEMBERS WHO WHO HAD PROBLEMS
00:09:59THIS IS A SCALE UNLIKE ANYTHING WE'VE EVER SEEN. AND TO LISTEN TO A REPUBLICAN
00:10:03LAWMAKER, AS YOU WOULD THINK, IT'S NOT HAPPENING.
00:10:06IS THERE SOMETHING ILLEGAL GOING ON IN YOUR VIEW?
00:10:08JONATHAN SWAN WELL, IT'S AN
00:10:12INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE TRUMP HIMSELF WAS GRANTED
00:10:15SWEEPING IMMUNITY, AS ALL
00:10:17PRESIDENTS WERE, WITH THE SUPREME COURT'S IMMUNITY RULING
00:10:21IN 2024.
00:10:21SO TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY BEYOND
00:10:26THE REACH OF THE LAW IN TERMS OF ACTIONS.
00:10:28I MEAN, IT HASN'T BEEN TESTED. SO WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHAT
00:10:31THE BOUNDARIES OF IT ARE, BUT
00:10:33IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE SOMETHING
00:10:37THAT HE'S DONE SO FAR THAT WOULD
00:10:39DEFY THE BOUNDS OF THAT RULING. WE ALSO HAVE REPORTING IN THE
00:10:43BOOK THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS TOLD SENIOR ADVISERS IN THE OVAL
00:10:48OFFICE THAT HE'S GOING TO PARDON
00:10:50ANYONE WHO CAME WITHIN 250 FACE OF THE OVAL OFFICE.
00:10:54HE SOMETIMES SAYS 200FT, SOMETIMES IT'S 29FT.
00:10:57SOME NUMBER OF FEET.
00:10:59SO THERE'S A SENSE AMONG TRUMP
00:11:04AND HIS ALLIES IN HIS INNER CIRCLE THAT WITH A VERY FRIENDLY
00:11:09JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RUN BY TRUMP'S OWN FORMER PERSONAL
00:11:11LAWYER WITH SWEEPING IMMUNITY
00:11:13FROM THE SUPREME COURT WITH AN
00:11:15INTENTION TO USE THE PARDON POWER MORE EXPANSIVELY
00:11:19POTENTIALLY THAN ANY PRESIDENT HAS EVER USED IT.
00:11:21I DON'T THINK THAT THEY FEEL ANY
00:11:24REAL CONCERN ABOUT THE
00:11:28ILLEGALITY. WHAT'S THE ROLE OF BORIS EPSTEIN? AM I PRONOUNCING THAT CORRECTLY?
00:11:32YEAH. WHAT'S THE ROLE OF BORIS EPSTEIN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIFE?
00:11:37IT'S A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT OF
00:11:39REPORTING ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN IN THE BOOK, AND HE IS SOMEBODY WHO
00:11:42WE HAVE BOTH FOLLOWED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.
00:11:45TRUMP HISTORICALLY LIKES HAVING
00:11:49PEOPLE AROUND WHO WILL FIX A PROBLEM QUICKLY, WHETHER THAT IS
00:11:52A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL LIKE STEPHEN MILLER, WHO SAYS, I CAN
00:11:55GET THIS DONE VERY FAST, WHETHER
00:11:57IT IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED FOR
00:12:00TRUMP AT HIS COMPANY WHO, YOU KNOW, WILL GO TALK TO AN
00:12:04OFFICIAL WHO'S GETTING THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION A HARD TIME OR AN
00:12:07ELECTED OFFICIAL WHO WITH WHOM
00:12:09TRUMP IS ENGAGING ON A PROJECT.
00:12:13EPSTEIN IS TRUMP'S LEAD PERSONAL
00:12:17LEGAL ADVISOR. HE IS NOT A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, AND YET HE IS AT THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:12:21A DECENT AMOUNT, ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING.
00:12:25ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING
00:12:27SCENES IN THE BOOK THAT THAT WE
00:12:31LEARNED OF WAS TRUMP AS PART OF
00:12:33HIS RETRIBUTION AGENDA. AND I ASSUME WE'LL TALK ABOUT
00:12:36THIS AT ANOTHER POINT IN THIS CONVERSATION. BUT HE HAS A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO
00:12:41HE BELIEVES ARE HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES AND HE WANTS TO USE THE
00:12:45POWER OF GOVERNMENT TO GO AFTER
00:12:47A BIG DRIVING ENGINE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION IS PAYBACK.
00:12:51AND THE FEELING THAT THAT THEY
00:12:53WERE PROSECUTED UNFAIRLY.
00:12:56TRUMP AND HIS ADVISORS THAT WERE RECIPIENTS OF SUBPOENAS AND SO FORTH.
00:13:00YOU KNOW, TRUMP SAID IT HIMSELF ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN ON THE NORTH LAWN.
00:13:03I WAS I WAS THE HUNTED, AND NOW I'M THE HUNTER. BUT THERE'S THIS REMARKABLE
00:13:06MOMENT WHERE THEY'RE IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND IT'S A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE.
00:13:10AND BORIS EPSTEIN IS THERE AND STEPHEN MILLER IS THERE.
00:13:14AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT
00:13:18VARIOUS THINGS. AND TRUMP SAYS THEY START
00:13:20TALKING ABOUT CHRIS KREBS, WHO RAN THE CYBERSECURITY AGENCY
00:13:23THAT OVERSAW THE ELECTION SAFETY IN 2020.
00:13:27AND IN TRUMP'S MIND, HIS SIN WAS SAYING THE ELECTION SYSTEMS WERE SAFE AND TRUMP CAN'T EVEN
00:13:32REMEMBER HIS NAME. IT'S, WELL, WHO WAS THAT GUY? AND SO BORIS EPSTEIN LOOKS HIM
00:13:36UP AND IT'S CHRIS KREBS. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE'S A PRESIDENTIAL MEMORANDA JUST
00:13:40TARGETING CHRIS KREBS DIRECTLY.
00:13:41THE TRUMP READS OUT DURING AN
00:13:45OVAL OFFICE EVENT AND A THAT
00:13:47SPOKE TO HOW SORT OF AD HOC A LOT OF THIS IS.
00:13:49BUT B, IT WAS REALLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS INSIDE
00:13:53OUTSIDE GAME. THE TRUMP I SHOULDN'T SAY GAME THIS INSIDE OUTSIDE APPROACH THAT TRUMP HAS IN TERMS OF
00:13:57TARGETING EITHER INDIVIDUALS OR INDUSTRIES.
00:14:01STEPHEN MILLER IS ON THE INSIDE.
00:14:05HE OVERSEES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
00:14:09OF POLICY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS OF
00:14:13WHAT ULTIMATELY WILL GO THROUGH THE PAPER PROCESS AND THEN GO TO TRUMP'S DESK.
00:14:18BUT BORIS EPSTEIN HANDLES THE
00:14:19OUTSIDE PIECE AND BORIS EPSTEIN WORKS.
00:14:22AT LEAST WE DEMONSTRATE IN ONE SCENE HERE. HE CAN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF ABOUT
00:14:26HOW HE WOULD CHARACTERIZE IT WORKS OR HAS WORKED WITH BOB
00:14:32JOFRA, WHO IS WITH A STORIED FIRM, SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL.
00:14:35THEY'RE REPRESENTING TRUMP IN
00:14:37HIS APPEAL OF HIS CRIMINAL
00:14:40CONVICTION FROM 2024. AND ONE OF THE AREAS WHERE YOU
00:14:43SEE THIS INSIDE, OUTSIDE FACTOR
00:14:45WAS EARLY ON WITH THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS TARGETING LAW
00:14:49FIRMS, WHICH HAVE NOT FARED WELL
00:14:51UNDER JUDICIAL SCRUTINY, BUT THEY DID ENOUGH DAMAGE TO THESE
00:14:57FIRMS, BOTH IN TERMS OF PR OR THEIR ABILITY TO REPRESENT
00:15:01CLIENTS. AND SO WHAT WE TRIED REPORTING
00:15:03IN THE BOOK WAS LAYING OUT HOW
00:15:05TRUMP USES THESE VARIOUS LEVERS
00:15:09TO WAGE ESSENTIALLY A BULLYING CAMPAIGN, WHETHER IT'S AGAINST
00:15:12PEOPLE WHO HE DOESN'T LIKE, WHETHER IT IS INDUSTRIES LIKE
00:15:17MEDIA, ABC NEWS, CBS AND OTHERS,
00:15:23THEY HAVE FOUND WAYS THAT IF THERE IS SOME KIND OF A
00:15:26GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT OR LEVER
00:15:29OVER, YOU KNOW, EDUCATIONAL
00:15:32INSTITUTIONS, HARVARD AND AGAIN WE LAY THIS OUT, THEY'RE WILLING
00:15:36TO USE IT AND PRESS AND SQUEEZE. AND SO TRUMP HAS VARIOUS
00:15:41MECHANISMS THAT HE HAS SHOWN HE HAS NO COMPUNCTION ABOUT DEPLOYING.
00:15:44WELL, MAGGIE HABERMAN AND JONATHAN SWAN, HOW MUCH TIME DID
00:15:47YOU SPEND LOOKING AT THE LEGITIMACY OF SOME OF PRESIDENT
00:15:51TRUMP'S GRIEVANCES? I MEAN, A LOT OF THIS CAN GO
00:15:54BACK TO RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA IN 2016 CANNOT.
00:15:59SURE. I MEAN, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LAW FIRMS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
00:16:02MAGGIE WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT,
00:16:04THE GRIEVANCES ARE BECAUSE THE
00:16:07LAW FIRMS HIRED PEOPLE LIKE ROBERT MUELLER, WHO WAS
00:16:11APPOINTED AS SPECIAL COUNSEL TO
00:16:13OVERSEE THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION
00:16:17OR MARK POMERANTZ, WHO WAS HIRED
00:16:19TO HELP INVESTIGATE TRUMP IN NEW YORK.
00:16:22PEOPLE TRUMP DOESN'T LIKE.
00:16:26SO IT'S IT IS NOT SOME SORT OF
00:16:30GREAT MYSTERY TO BE DISCERNED HERE ABOUT THE SELECTION PROCESS
00:16:33OF HOW THEY WENT AFTER VARIOUS LAW FIRMS. IT WAS LAW FIRMS EITHER
00:16:36REPRESENTED PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE LIKE JACK SMITH, WHO WAS
00:16:41APPOINTED AS A SPECIAL COUNSEL, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE TRUMP OVER THE
00:16:46CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AND THE JANUARY SIX CONSPIRACY, OR
00:16:52BECAUSE THEY EMPLOYED PEOPLE HE DIDN'T LIKE AND HE USED
00:16:54GOVERNMENT POWER TO COERCE THEM
00:16:56INTO MAKING SIGNIFICANT PRO-BONO
00:17:01COMMITMENTS TO THE GOVERNMENT. WELL, I WANT TO QUOTE FROM THE
00:17:03BOOK ABOUT THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS, THOUGH.
00:17:06THE DAILY SCHEDULE BY MIDWAY THROUGH THE YEAR, A PICTURE WAS
00:17:10EMERGING OF HOW THE OVAL OFFICE
00:17:12OPERATED IN TRUMP'S SECOND TERM.
00:17:14IT WAS OF A PRESIDENT'S SPENDING HIS DAYS AT THE RESOLUTE DESK IN
00:17:18A SERIES OF ROLLING BOWLS SESSIONS, ACCOMPANIED BY A CORE
00:17:22GROUP OF INMATES. THESE WERE SUPPLEMENTED BY A
00:17:25ROTATING CAST OF EXTRAS, AND ON ANY GIVEN DAY, THEY COULD BE
00:17:29REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS. TITANS OF INDUSTRY, FORMER PRO
00:17:33WRESTLERS, COUNTRY MUSICIANS, GULF ROYALS, CRYPTO BROKERS OR
00:17:36FRIENDS OF FELONS SEEKING PARDONS.
00:17:39THEY WOULD ENTER EXIT THE FRAME
00:17:41WITH SOME INVITED TO STAY FOR MEETINGS.
00:17:43THEY HAD NO BUSINESS ATTENDING. THE CONVERSATIONS RAN FAST,
00:17:47OFTEN STRAYING FAR FROM THE POINT OR FROM ANYTHING.
00:17:51VISITORS IMAGINED WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:17:54THE PRESIDENT'S SENTENCES OFTEN
00:17:56BEGAN ON ONE TOPIC AND ENDED FAR AWAY.
00:18:00HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS IN THE
00:18:03OVAL OFFICE?
00:18:05WELL, WE WRITE WE WRITE THAT
00:18:07SORT OF IT'S A VERY INTERESTING JUXTAPOSITION. WE WRITE THAT TIME IS A FLEXIBLE
00:18:11CONCEPT IN TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE.
00:18:13PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS GEORGE W BUSH BEING ONE EXAMPLE.
00:18:16BARACK OBAMA BEING OTHER PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS USED TO
00:18:19SCHEDULE THEIR TIME IN 10 OR 15 MINUTE INCREMENTS.
00:18:22I MEAN, THAT'S HOW ORGANIZED THEY WERE. YOU KNOW, THE ADAGE THAT
00:18:25PRESIDENTS MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY IS HIS TIME.
00:18:29THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE TO THE
00:18:31OUTSIDE LOOKS LIKE THIS HIGH OF
00:18:34ACTIVITY, THIS INCREDIBLE
00:18:36MACHINE THAT'S JUST PUMPING OUT, YOU KNOW, ACTIVITY.
00:18:39BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY GO IN AND SEE HIM, IT CAN OFTEN
00:18:42SEEM LIKE HE HAS ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD.
00:18:45AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE WENT IN, FOR EXAMPLE, TO SEE HIM FOR AN
00:18:49INTERVIEW, THIS IS MARCH 16, MARCH 16TH, PERFECTLY SIMPLE,
00:18:54UNHURRIED. IT WAS IT WAS THE 17TH DAY OF THE WAR IN IRAN.
00:18:58THERE HAVE BEEN AMERICAN CASUALTIES AND THE WAR WAS NOT
00:19:01GOING SO WELL. YOU COULD IMAGINE A PRESIDENT
00:19:04UNDER HUGE DURESS AND STRESS
00:19:08MAPS AND WHATEVER. HE WAS THE PICTURE OF RELAXATION.
00:19:11AND IN FACT, WHEN WE WALKED INTO THE OVAL OFFICE ON TOP OF THE
00:19:15RESOLUTE DESK WITH PHOTOGRAPHS OF MAPLE TREES, AND HE HELD IT
00:19:19UP AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I'M BUYING MAPLE TREES FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:19:23TURNS OUT I'M GOOD AT BUYING TREES.
00:19:25UNDERNEATH WERE MORE PICTURES OF
00:19:27HIS BALLROOM OF THE COLUMNS.
00:19:31HE SPENDS VERY CONSIDERABLE AMOUNTS OF HIS TIME ON
00:19:35DECORATION AND DESIGN, REBUILDING MONUMENTS AND
00:19:39REFURBISHING WASHINGTON, D.C. THE MEETINGS ARE UNSTRUCTURED
00:19:46AND ROLLING. AS WE SAY, THERE OFTEN ISN'T A
00:19:48SORT OF DELINEATED END POINT, BUT THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING ELSE
00:19:52THAT'S TRUE, WHICH WE WRITE IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS FOR IMPORTANT
00:19:56TOPICS FOR YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO WANT TO KEEP
00:20:00SECRET. THEY'RE VERY GOOD AT KEEPING
00:20:02SECRETS MUCH BETTER THAN THE FIRST TIME.
00:20:05AND WHAT WE I THINK PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND WHEN THEY READ THE
00:20:09BOOK IS THIS IS NOTHING LIKE THE FIRST TIME.
00:20:12THIS IS A COUNTRY BEING RUN BY 5
00:20:15OR 6 PEOPLE, A TINY GROUP.
00:20:19AND MOST PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT, EVEN AT A VERY
00:20:21SENIOR LEVEL, AT VARIOUS AGENCIES, STATE DEPARTMENT,
00:20:25PENTAGON, HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA
00:20:29WHAT'S BEING SAID IN THIS ROOM AND WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED AND
00:20:32WHAT'S BEING PLANNED.
00:20:33SO WE TRY I MEAN, ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS THAT WE HAD TO
00:20:38ACCOMPLISH AS REPORTERS FOR THIS BOOK WAS BREAKING INTO THOSE
00:20:42ROOMS AND TRYING TO GET OUT THAT INFORMATION, BECAUSE IF THIS WAS
00:20:46THE FIRST TIME, IT WAS LIKE ANYONE COULD GET A LEAK.
00:20:48IT WAS LEAKING THREE, YOU KNOW, CONSTANT STORIES.
00:20:52EVERY DAY STREAM OF. HE NOW HAS TRUE LOYALISTS AROUND HIM.
00:20:56AND AND THE LEAKING IS JUST FAR
00:20:58LESS PREVALENT. WELL, YOU'VE GOT THE CORE GROUP OF TRUMP INTIMATES, AS YOU SAY.
00:21:04SIOUXSIE WILES, STEPHEN MILLER,
00:21:06MARCO RUBIO, J.D. VANCE, STEVE
00:21:08WYCKOFF, NATALIE HARP.
00:21:10WHO AM I MISSING ON THAT LIST?
00:21:13HEGSETH, K, JOHN RATCLIFFE.
00:21:15IF IT'S ECONOMIC MATTERS, YOU'LL GET SCOTT BISSONETTE IN THERE.
00:21:18BUT IT DOESN'T GO MUCH BEYOND THAT. AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE THAT I WOULD CALL ALL OF THE PEOPLE WE
00:21:22JUST DESCRIBED INTIMATES, RIGHT?
00:21:23YOU KNOW, THE BEST FOR INSTANCE,
00:21:27THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND CHRIS
00:21:29WRIGHT, WHO TRUMP, YOU KNOW, HAS HAS HAD ENERGY, AN ENERGY
00:21:33SECRETARY WHO TRUMP HAS HAD A LUKEWARM APPROACH TO AT BEST. AND EMOTIONS ABOUT.
00:21:37THEY WEREN'T EVEN IN THESE MEETINGS THAT WE DESCRIBE ABOUT THE LEAD UP TO THE IRAN WAR.
00:21:42THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD HAVE TO MANAGE THE FALLOUT OF A GLOBAL
00:21:44ENERGY CRISIS FROM THIS WAR WERE NOT PART OF THE PLANNING
00:21:50MEETINGS BECAUSE THIS WHITE HOUSE IS SO CONCERNED ABOUT
00:21:54LEAKS. BUT THAT'S TYPICAL OF ANY WHITE HOUSE.
00:21:57NO, I MEAN, NOT LIKE THIS. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? WE WENT TO WAR IN IRAN.
00:22:00WE WENT TO WAR IN IRAN. AND THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND ENERGY SECRETARY WERE NOT
00:22:03INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE PLANNING MEETINGS TO TALK ABOUT THE
00:22:07POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ TO TALK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.
00:22:11NO, THAT'S NOT NORMAL. THE CONCERN ABOUT LEAKS IS NOT UNUSUAL.
00:22:14IT IS THE EXTREME MEASURES THAT THEY TAKE TO TRY TO AVOID THEM,
00:22:18WHICH IS ALSO PART OF WHAT MADE
00:22:21REPORTING THIS. IN ADDITION TO THE FACT THAT THIS JONATHAN SAID, THIS IS NOT TERM ONE.
00:22:24YOU KNOW WHERE YOU HAD TO BE, TO PARAPHRASE A COLLEAGUE OF OURS,
00:22:27YOU KNOW, ABSENT YOUR SENSES, TO
00:22:30NOT GET A STORY, AT SOME POINT
00:22:32BECAUSE THEY HAVE SET UP ALL OF
00:22:35THESE EFFORTS TO TRY TO AVOID LEAKS. THIS WAS A REALLY, REALLY,
00:22:37REALLY HARD BOOK TO REPORT. AND WE'RE HUMBLE ABOUT THE FACT
00:22:41THAT THERE'S PROBABLY MORE TO LEARN ABOUT CERTAIN EPISODES
00:22:45HERE, BUT THIS WAS OUR BEST ATTEMPT. THOSE WHO KNEW HER WELL ATTESTED
00:22:48THAT UNDERNEATH THE
00:22:50GRANDMOTHERLY VIBES AND
00:22:52REASSURING MANNER WAS AN OPERATOR WHO COULD SO DEFINITELY
00:22:56WIELD A KNIFE THAT HER TARGETS RARELY SAW IT COMING.
00:23:00TRUMP NICKNAMED HER THE ICE BABY. WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
00:23:04THAT WOULD BE SIOUXSIE WILES AND THAT. NOT MUCH TO ADD TO THE
00:23:08DESCRIPTION WE HAD IN THE BOOK. ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT SIOUXSIE WILES IS SHE WAS
00:23:12WITH TRUMP AT TRUMP'S LOWEST
00:23:16POINT, WHICH WAS 2021, BUT HE WAS WITH HER AT HER LOWEST POINT.
00:23:20AND I THINK THAT GETS REALLY MISSED IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING
00:23:25THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN THEM.
00:23:27SO IN 2018, AT TRUMP'S REQUEST, SIOUXSIE WILES IS A LONG TIME
00:23:31FLORIDA OPERATIVE LOBBYING IST,
00:23:34VERY WELL KNOWN, YOU KNOW, HAS BIPARTISAN RESPECT AND
00:23:38ADMIRATION IN FLORIDA.
00:23:40SHE WAS VERY INVOLVED IN RICK
00:23:44SCOTT'S SENATE CAMPAIGN IN 2010, WHICH WAS ALSO THE SAME TICKET THAT MARCO RUBIO RAN ON.
00:23:48SO THIS WAS THE RISE OF THE TEA PARTY. AND SO SHE'S HAD A REAL
00:23:51FIRSTHAND LOOK AT HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS CHANGED OVER TIME.
00:23:55SHE WAS NOT SOMEBODY WHO YOU WOULD ORGANICALLY THINK ABOUT
00:23:58AS, YOU KNOW, A FLAME THROWER. RIGHT.
00:24:01OF THE OF THE OF THE MAGA VARIETY.
00:24:04BUT SHE'S A LITTLE HARDER TO PUT
00:24:07IN A BOX THAN PEOPLE THINK. HOWEVER, JUST A NEAT, CLEAN
00:24:11POLITICAL BOX. IN 2018, AT TRUMP'S REQUEST, SHE
00:24:14WENT TO GO HELP RUN DESANTIS, SAVE WHAT WAS A FLAILING
00:24:18GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN, AND HE WON.
00:24:23AND HE THEN DESANTIS STARTED TARGETING HER, MAKING ALL KINDS
00:24:27OF ACCUSATIONS ABOUT LEAKS AND MONEY. ALL OF WHICH SHE DENIED.
00:24:31BUT HE REALLY DISCOUNTED SET OUT TO TRY TO RUIN HER CAREER,
00:24:35ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING AND ACCORDING TO PEOPLE IN FLORIDA.
00:24:37WHAT WAS IT WHAT WAS THE ISSUE THAT THEY HAD?
00:24:41I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'LL EVER TOTALLY KNOW. THE THE THE BREAKDOWN HERE.
00:24:45BUT WE KNOW THAT HE ACCUSED HER
00:24:47OF VARIOUS TYPES OF IMPROPRIETY. I MEAN, THE DISSENTERS ARE ALSO
00:24:52VERY, VERY SECRETIVE AND ALSO VERY PARANOID, AT LEAST IN OUR EXPERIENCE OF COVERING THEM.
00:24:55AND I THINK, FRANKLY, EVERYBODY'S EXPERIENCE OF COVERING THEM IN FLORIDA.
00:24:59BUT SHE DID THAT AT TRUMP'S REQUEST.
00:25:01AND THEN IT DESANTIS WENT AFTER
00:25:05WILES TO TRUMP AHEAD OF HIS 2020 CAMPAIGN, SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T
00:25:09HIRE HER. SO TRUMP DIDN'T.
00:25:11SOME MEMBERS OF TRUMP'S STAFF PROTESTED AND HE BROUGHT HER ON
00:25:14OVER TO THE EMBASSIES OBJECTIONS.
00:25:18HE CREDITS WILES WITH WHY HE WON
00:25:20FLORIDA IN 2016 AND HAS FOR A LONG TIME.
00:25:23YOU KNOW, THERE'S A FAMOUS STORY
00:25:25ABOUT FAMOUS IN A SMALL CIRCLE ABOUT HIM BEING PRETTY ABUSIVE
00:25:29TO HER. ON ONE NIGHT IN OCTOBER 2016, IN FRONT OF A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE.
00:25:34AND AND SHE TOOK IT AND SHE
00:25:35DIDN'T FLINCH IN HIS PRESENCE.
00:25:38PART OF THE WHOLE ICE MAIDEN THING.
00:25:41BUT SHE HE STUCK BY HER OVER
00:25:45SANTOS'S OBJECTIONS IN 2020. AND SO IN EARLY 2021, WHEN HE
00:25:48ASKED HER TO RUN, WHAT WAS THIS PRETTY SHAPELESS
00:25:52POST-PRESIDENTIAL PERIOD AT MAR A LAGO? SHE SAID YES.
00:25:55AND IT WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE AND AGAIN, WE WRITE ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK, MOST PEOPLE
00:25:59WOULDN'T WANT TO BE AROUND HIM FROM HIS OLD WORLD.
00:26:01EVERYONE NOW WILL SAY, I WAS ALWAYS WITH HIM.
00:26:04I NEVER LEFT. I ALWAYS BELIEVED HE WOULD WIN.
00:26:07AND WE CAN CONFIDENTLY TELL YOU THAT IS NOT TRUE.
00:26:12BUT SHE WAS WITH HIM AND SHE DID
00:26:16ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR PATH FOR WINNING.
00:26:18JONATHAN SWAN YOU ALL STARTED THIS BOOK IN 2023 WHEN HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE.
00:26:22WHAT WAS THE SHAPE OF THE BOOK? DID YOU THINK HE WAS GOING TO WIN AGAIN? I DID.
00:26:26HE JUST. JONATHAN BASHFORD ON THAT HE NEVER WAVERED ON IT.
00:26:31BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER. WE SO WHEN WE, WHEN WE DECIDED
00:26:34TO DO THIS BOOK, WE WERE DECIDED
00:26:38THAT WE WANT TO COVER THE FINAL ACT OF TRUMP, WHATEVER THAT ACT LOOK LIKE.
00:26:41SO THE BOOK EVOLVED A LOT. WE JUST STARTED REPORTING.
00:26:44THAT'S ALL WE COULD DO WAS REPORT THE HECK OUT OF IT.
00:26:48AND WAS IT GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN BOOK IF HE LOST THE
00:26:51CAMPAIGN, COULD IT BE A BOOK THAT ENDED WITH HIM GOING TO PRISON?
00:26:54WE WERE JUST FOLLOWING THE STORY WITH AN OPEN MIND AS TO WHERE IT COULD GO.
00:26:58WITH BOTH COVERED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME, I'VE COVERED HIM. THIS IS MY 11TH CONCERT OF YEAR
00:27:02OF COVERING DONALD TRUMP. MATTHEWS COVERED HIM FOR EVEN LONGER THAN THAT.
00:27:06SO WE JUST FOLLOW THE STORY. AND THEN WHEN HE GOT INTO POWER,
00:27:12CAME BACK TO THE PRESIDENCY, I
00:27:14WOULD SAY ABOUT 3 OR 4 MONTHS
00:27:16IN, WE REALIZED THIS WAS SUCH A CONSEQUENTIAL FIRST YEAR OF A
00:27:21PRESIDENCY, LIKE NOTHING THAT'S HAPPENED IN OUR LIFETIME, THAT
00:27:24THE FOCUS OF THE BOOK REALLY
00:27:26NEEDED TO BE HIS RETURN TO THE PRESIDENCY.
00:27:28AND WE MADE A PRETTY PAINFUL
00:27:32DECISION, WHICH STILL HURTS ME
00:27:36DEEP INSIDE, WHICH WAS WE
00:27:39JETTISONED, WE THREW OUT
00:27:43METAPHORICALLY. IT STILL EXISTS SOMEWHERE DOWN IN THE PAGES OF REPORTING AND
00:27:47WORK FROM ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF PERIOD, FROM SORT OF ALMOST
00:27:52TO AN UP TO DATE PERIOD, A YEAR AND A HALF.
00:27:54ALL THROUGH 24, YOU KNOW, AND THIS IS US WORKING, BARELY
00:27:57SEEING OUR FAMILIES SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, KILLING OURSELVES.
00:28:01TONS OF BEHIND THE SCENES STUFF BECAUSE WE DECIDED THE REPORTING
00:28:05JUST DIDN'T MEET THE BAR THAT WE WANTED FOR THIS. LIKE THE ONLY MATERIAL THAT
00:28:08YOU'LL FIND IN THE BOOK FROM THE 2024 PERIOD IS MATERIAL THAT WE
00:28:12FEEL HELPS ILLUMINATE WHAT WE'RE LIVING THROUGH FOR THIS PRESIDENCY.
00:28:15SO WE WERE INCREDIBLY RUTHLESS
00:28:19ABOUT WHAT WE INCLUDED AND WHAT WE DIDN'T.
00:28:21SO THE CUTTING ROOM, EVERY BOOK
00:28:23HAS A BIG CUTTING ROOM FOR THIS ONE WAS LIKE A PRETTY BIG ONE
00:28:26AFRICAN WHERE HOUSE OF OUR
00:28:29CUTTING ROOM FLOOR AND IT'S STILL, AS YOU CAN TELL, HURTS ME TO KNOW.
00:28:33NOW. YOU SAT DOWN IN MARCH FOR A FORMAL INTERVIEW WITH THE PRESIDENT.
00:28:36YOU'VE BOTH INTERVIEWED HIM IN THE PAST. BUT MY GUESS IS YOU BOTH HAVE A
00:28:40CELL NUMBER. YEAH, SURE. AND IF YOU CALLED HIM RIGHT NOW,
00:28:43WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE YOU DO IT. TRUST ME, I WOULDN'T SAY US ON HOW TO. JONATHAN WOULD EITHER. GOOD.
00:28:47BUT HE WOULD PICK UP PROBABLY OR CALL YOU BACK. IS THAT CORRECT?
00:28:50I DON'T ACTUALLY. I DON'T THINK SO. MAYBE.
00:28:54I MEAN, WE REALLY HAVE NOT.
00:28:56WE PERSONALLY, I HAVE NOT REALLY TALKED TO HIM VERY MUCH OTHER
00:29:00THAN DAY TO DAY, WHICH WE WRITE ABOUT WHEN WE'RE COVERING HIM DURING THIS TERM.
00:29:03I KNOW BECAUSE OF THE BOOK,
00:29:07BECAUSE AS A COUPLE OF THINGS. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE MADE IT.
00:29:11WE MADE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO GET HIM TO SIT WITH US FOR THIS BOOK.
00:29:15AND IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. AND IT WAS IT WAS BECOMING CLEAR
00:29:18TO US THAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO HIM DIRECTLY TO ASK,
00:29:22BECAUSE WE HAD TRIED THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR OF THE WHITE HOUSE
00:29:26AND THAT WASN'T THAT WASN'T GETTING US VERY FAR.
00:29:28AND THIS IS A BOOK WHERE HE HE'S THE SUBJECT WE WANTED TO GIVE
00:29:32HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS, BUT WE ALSO
00:29:35DID NOT WANT IT TO JUST SORT OF BE OPEN MIC NIGHT AND, YOU KNOW,
00:29:37SIT DOWN HAS HAS THE NEWS OF THE
00:29:39DAY OR AND THERE IS CLEARLY NEWS
00:29:43HAS COME FROM PEOPLE CALLING HIM IN THE LAST YOU KNOW HOWEVER
00:29:47MANY MONTHS IT'S BEEN THERE HAVE
00:29:49BEEN VERY REVEALING COMMENTS HE'S MADE ONE ABOUT HOW, YOU
00:29:52KNOW, TO MICHAEL SCHERER OF THE
00:29:54ATLANTIC ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, AMERICA FIRST MEANS WHATEVER I SAY.
00:29:58IT MEANS. LAST YEAR WHEN HE WAS FIRST
00:30:01INVOLVED IN AN INCURSION INTO IRAN, WHICH WAS THE 12 DAY WAR.
00:30:04THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER PIECES OF NEWS THAT HAVE EMERGED.
00:30:07BUT IN GENERAL, THESE CALLS WHEN
00:30:10PEOPLE MAKE THEM, THEY LAST ABOUT 2.5 MINUTES.
00:30:15HE DICTATES THE TERMS OF THE DISCUSSION.
00:30:18AND IT'S A WAY TO APPEAR AND
00:30:20MAKE A DISPLAY OF TRANSPARENCY, WHICH WE DESCRIBED.
00:30:23I MEAN, THIS ADMINISTRATION IS VERY GOOD AT MAKING SHOWS OF
00:30:27TRANSPARENCY. CAROLINE LEAVITT CONSTANTLY SAYS HE HAS THE MOST TRANS PARENT
00:30:29PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, WHICH IS
00:30:31JUST SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
00:30:34I'M NOT RATING HIM AGAINST OTHER PRESIDENTS. HE'S JUST NOT A TREND.
00:30:37THIS IS NOT A TRANSPARENT ADMINISTRATION.
00:30:40BUT SO THOSE CALLS ALLOW HIM TO
00:30:42MAINTAIN THAT VENEER WHILE
00:30:46REALLY DICTATING THE TERMS AND NOT ANSWERING MUCH AT ALL.
00:30:49BUT WHEN HE HAS A OVAL OFFICE
00:30:51MEETING AND SAYS, DO YOU HAVE
00:30:53ANY QUESTIONS, YOU COULD ASK HIM ANYTHING YOU WANTED?
00:30:57CORRECT. IF I'M IN THE PAPER OR IN THE POOL, WHICH THE WHITE HOUSE NOW DECIDES WHO'S IN THE POOL.
00:31:01SO, YEAH, IF I IF I'M SELECTED IN THE POOL, SURE.
00:31:05BUT THE COMPOSITION OF THE POOL HAS CHANGED FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE.
00:31:08THERE ARE MORE FRIENDLY REPORTERS THERE. IT IS TRUE.
00:31:12LET LET ME BE CLEAR ABOUT SOMETHING.
00:31:14HE ANSWERS MORE QUESTIONS. AND OF COURSE, THERE'S NO HE'S
00:31:17MORE AVAILABLE TO I MEAN, THERE ARE REPORTERS IN THERE ASKING HIM QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, WHEN
00:31:21THEY'RE IN THE POOL. THERE'S THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. BUT, MAGGIE, I JUST FIND THE
00:31:26TYPE OF REPORTING THAT WE DO IN THIS BOOK, THIS MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF REPORTING.
00:31:30BUT WHEN WE WANT TO TRY AND GET INSIDE A ROOM, THE OVAL, THE SITUATION ROOM, FOR THE MOST
00:31:33SENSITIVE CONVERSATION AND THE WAY TO GET THAT IS NOT TO CALL
00:31:37DONALD TRUMP ON THE CELL PHONE FOR THREE MINUTES. IT'S JUST IT'S NOT THAT USEFUL.
00:31:40AND JONATHAN SWAN, MAGGIE
00:31:42HABERMAN, IN REGIME CHANGE, YOU
00:31:46HAVE YOU'RE IN THE OVAL OFFICE, YOU'RE IN THE SIT ROOM AND YOU
00:31:49HAVE QUOTES, YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON.
00:31:53ARE WE LOOKING AT AUDIOTAPE? ARE WE LOOKING AT TRANSCRIPTS?
00:31:56IS IT LEGAL FOR YOU TO HAVE
00:31:59POTENTIALLY NATIONAL SECURITY TRANSCRIPTS IN YOUR POSSESSION?
00:32:02WE'RE JUST NOT GOING TO DISCUSS SOURCING AT ALL. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AN EXTENSIVE
00:32:06NOTE ABOUT SOURCING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK, AND WE
00:32:10DESCRIBE HOW WE CONDUCTED MORE THAN A THOUSAND INTERVIEWS.
00:32:13WE DESCRIBE HOW WE MADE DECISIONS ABOUT USING DIRECT QUOTES, HOW WE DECIDED TO USE
00:32:18THINGS THAT AS AS BACKGROUND DISCUSSIONS.
00:32:21AND WE DESCRIBE THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE DID INTERVIEWS, WHICH
00:32:23WAS ON THE JOURNALISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF DEEP BACKGROUND. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, NO, WE'RE
00:32:27JUST NOT GOING TO DISCUSS ANY OF THIS. WELL, THE PRESIDENT HAD A REACTION TO YOUR BOOK, AS I'M
00:32:31SURE YOU'VE SEEN. BUT WE WANT TO SHOW OUR AUDIENCES BASED ON A VERY QUICK
00:32:35AND BORING BRIEFING CONCERNING
00:32:37THAT MAGGOT HAGAMAN BOOK ABOUT
00:32:41ME. IT IS MOSTLY MADE UP FAKE NEWS, LARGELY FICTION, AS HAVE BEEN
00:32:44MOST OF THE THINGS SHE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT ME FOR SO MANY
00:32:48YEARS. SHE IS A THIRD RATE WRITER
00:32:51INTELLECT WHO HAS MADE A FIRST RATE INCOME BECAUSE OF YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENT.
00:32:56ME AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE AUDIOTAPE THAT THEY IMPLY.
00:32:59THEY HAVE JUST ANOTHER MARGOT
00:33:02CON JOB AND IRAN WILL NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON. PRESIDENT DONALD J.
00:33:06TRUMP DO YOU THINK HE TYPED THIS
00:33:08OUT HIMSELF ON HIS PHONE?
00:33:11I DON'T KNOW THE MARGOT IT IS A
00:33:13BIT OF A CONFUSING AD, BUT I
00:33:18SINCE IT WAS 1215 AT NIGHT, IT WAS EITHER HIM OR THERE'S A VERY
00:33:22SMALL GROUP OF. AND SO IT COULD HAVE BEEN NATALIE HARPER BE ONE OF THEM
00:33:25BECAUSE SHE OFTEN YOU KNOW, NEITHER SENDS HIM MATERIAL OR
00:33:28POST SOMETHING ON HIS BEHALF, ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING.
00:33:32SOMETIMES OVER WITHOUT OTHER AIDES KNOWING IT.
00:33:35SO, I DON'T KNOW ARE SIOUXSIE
00:33:37WILES, STEPHEN MILLER AVAILABLE
00:33:41TO YOU ON A REGULAR BASIS AS NEW YORK TIMES REPORTERS?
00:33:44WE JUST WANT TO WE'RE NOT GOING TO COME IN TO DISCUSS SOURCING. WHAT DO YOU THINK MOTIVATES
00:33:49STEVEN MILLER ON THE ISSUES THAT HE CARES ABOUT, PARTICULARLY
00:33:53IMMIGRATION? IT RUNS PRETTY DEEPLY FOR STEPHEN MILLER, MUCH MORE DEEPLY
00:33:56THAN IT DOES FOR THE PRESIDENT. WHAT WE HAVE, WHAT WE TRY TO DO
00:34:00IN THE BOOK FOR ALL THE MAIN
00:34:02PLAYERS IN THIS ADMINISTRATION
00:34:04IS GIVE READERS A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF THEM AND THEIR
00:34:08CHARACTERS AND HOW THEY GREW UP. AND STEPHEN MILLER'S A REALLY INTERESTING EXAMPLE.
00:34:12HE GREW UP IN CALIFORNIA, SANTA MONICA, SANTA MONICA, VERY
00:34:15LIBERAL ENVIRONS, AND IN HIS IN
00:34:18HIS VIEW, OPPRESSED BULLY.
00:34:20SO AND HE FROM A VERY EARLY, EARLY AGE, WAS HIGHLY
00:34:26IDEOLOGICAL AND HE WAS OBSESSED
00:34:28WITH THE RIGHT WING RADIO HOST, RUSH LIMBAUGH.
00:34:31HE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM ALL THE TIME. HE WOULD CALL INTO ANOTHER RIGHT
00:34:36WING RADIO HOST, LARRY ELDER. HE WOULD CALL INTO HIS RADIO
00:34:39SHOW WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. AND HE WAS A SORT OF PROVOCATEUR
00:34:44ON AT HIS HIGH SCHOOL. YOU KNOW, HE WOULD YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CLIP ON LINE.
00:34:47YOU'LL SEE IF YOU LOOK IT UP WHERE HE'S GIVING A SPEECH ABOUT
00:34:51WHY CAN'T THE JANITORS CLEAN UP
00:34:54OUR TRASH? YOU KNOW, YOU GET THE IDEA. SO HE CAME TO HIS
00:34:59ANTI-IMMIGRATION VIEWS AT A TIME
00:35:00IN CALIFORNIA WHERE EVEN THOUGH
00:35:05CALIFORNIA WAS OVERWHELMINGLY LIBERAL, THE POLITICS OF
00:35:08IMMIGRATION DURING HIS HIGH
00:35:09SCHOOL YEARS WERE VERY EXPLOSIVE
00:35:13IN CALIFORNIA. AND SO HE KIND OF GREW UP IN
00:35:17THAT ENVIRONMENT.
00:35:19AND DURING UNIVERSITY, HE GOT
00:35:22HIS FIRST TASTE OF REAL NATIONAL
00:35:24CELEBRITY, A CELEBRITY IN THAT SMALL WORLD.
00:35:27HE WAS AT DUKE UNIVERSITY, AND
00:35:30THERE WERE, AS YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER, I'M SURE PEOPLE REMEMBER, THEY WERE LACROSSE
00:35:33PLAYERS WHO WERE ACCUSED OF RAPE.
00:35:35AND BEFORE WE REALLY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, STEPHEN MILLER
00:35:39BECAME ONE OF THEIR MOST VOCAL
00:35:41ADVOCATES AND DEFENDERS. TURNS OUT STEVE MILLER WAS RIGHT.
00:35:45THEY WERE FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE AND VINDICATED LATER THAN
00:35:49THAT. BUT THAT GOT STEVEN MILLER ON
00:35:52FOX AND HE BECAME THIS, YOU
00:35:53KNOW, AGGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
00:35:56IDEOLOGUE ON FOX. AND THAT JUST SENT HIM TO
00:36:00CAPITOL HILL WHERE HE WAS THIS
00:36:01SORT OF FRINGE AT THE TIME, KIND
00:36:06OF ALMOST A GADFLY TYPE OF FIGURE. HE WOULD CALL REPORTERS LATE AT
00:36:09NIGHT VERY FOCUSED ON HIS
00:36:14FASHION. HE USED TO WEAR A SILVER PINKY
00:36:16RING WITH BLACK DIAMOND, YOU
00:36:18KNOW, VERY FOCUSED ON HIS TIES
00:36:23AND THE FABRICS OF HIS SUITS AND THE COLLARS AND ALL OF THIS STUFF.
00:36:26BUT WHEN TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2015, STEPHEN MILLER
00:36:31DESCRIBED TO OTHERS BEING ELECTRIFIED BY THAT FIRST SPEECH
00:36:34THAT TRUMP GAVE, WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT MEXICANS BEING RAPISTS AND
00:36:39HORDE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER
00:36:41AND BASED ON OUR REPORTING, IT
00:36:44SEEMS LIKE STEVEN MILLER IN THAT
00:36:46MOMENT, HE'D BEEN LOOKING FOR A
00:36:50VESSEL FOR HIS IDEOLOGY.
00:36:53AND HE SAW, I THINK, IN DONALD
00:36:55TRUMP, SOMEBODY WHO HAD THE
00:36:57CHARISMA AND THE STAR POWER TO
00:36:59TAKE STEVEN MILLER'S IDEAS AND
00:37:03REALLY ELEVATE THEM AND TO
00:37:05FRANKLY, TO CRUSH THE OLD REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH STEPHEN
00:37:08MILLER HAS ABSOLUTE CONTEMPT FOR THE GEORGE W BUSH COMPASSIONATE
00:37:13CONSERVATIVE IF IT IS, YOU KNOW, WELCOME IN IMMIGRANTS AS A
00:37:18DISDAIN AND CONTEMPT FOR THAT PARTY AND WANTS IT TO BE GONE.
00:37:20HE SAW TRUMP AS AS A VEHICLE AND BECAME ONE OF HIS MOST VALUED
00:37:25AIDES.
00:37:25VERY SMART GUY, RELENTLESS, HAS
00:37:29A VISION AND STICKS TO IT AND
00:37:33WAS AS AS WELL PREPARED AS ANYONE FOR THIS SECOND TERM.
00:37:38MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHAT'S IT LIKE
00:37:40TO BE ON THE RECEIVING END OF A TRUE SOCIAL POST LIKE THIS OR A
00:37:44CALL OUT IN THE OVAL OFFICE
00:37:47TELLING YOU YOU'RE TERRIBLE AND AWFUL?
00:37:49I THINK I'D MELT. I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD. FIRST OF ALL.
00:37:53BUT BUT SECONDLY, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT HE'S
00:37:57ATTACKED ME, NOR IS IT THE SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH OR FIFTH. RIGHT. JONATHAN HAS ALSO BEEN ATTACKED
00:38:01BY HIM. I IT DOESN'T IMPACT THE WAY THAT
00:38:04WE'RE DOING OUR JOB ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I MEAN, HE'S ALSO THE ATTACKS
00:38:09COME FAR MORE FREQUENTLY AND FRANKLY, FAR MORE SIMILARLY TO
00:38:12MOST OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AT THIS POINT.
00:38:16AND NOT MAINSTREAM MEDIA. IT'S IT'S JUST WHAT HE DOES.
00:38:19AND HE CAN SAY WHATEVER HE WANTS. THAT'S FINE. I MEAN, HE'S PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO.
00:38:23FROM YOUR BOOK POLICY IS
00:38:25WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT SAID LAST
00:38:30ACCURATE. YES. IN FACT, YOU'RE SEEING IT MOST
00:38:34VISIBLY RECENTLY ON THIS BIPARTISAN HOUSING BILL WHERE
00:38:39THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I
00:38:40THINK WE WE HAVE BEEN STRUCK AND
00:38:43WE TALK ABOUT THIS, OBVIOUSLY A LOT IN THIS PAST HOUR OR HOWEVER
00:38:47LONG WE'VE BEEN HERE. AND PART OF THE IMPETUS AND IN
00:38:51WRITING THIS BOOK, AS JONATHAN SAID, WAS HOW DIFFERENT THIS
00:38:54TERM, HOW UNRECOGNIZABLE THIS TERM IS FROM TERM ONE.
00:38:57BUT THERE WAS A MOMENT OF
00:39:01FAMILIARITY IN RECENT DAYS WHEN YOU HAD TOP ADVISERS TO THE
00:39:05PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT AND THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET HIM TO FOCUS
00:39:09ON AFFORDABILITY AND COST OF LIVING FOR AVERAGE VOTERS FOR
00:39:12SOME TIME. ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT WE GOT
00:39:15OUR HANDS ON IN THE REPORTING OF THIS BOOK WAS PRIVATE POLLING
00:39:19INSIDE TRUMP'S WORLD WHERE 24
00:39:24BREEZY, 24 PAGES. TONY FABRIZIO, WHO HAS PULLED ON
00:39:26AND OFF FOR TRUMP ACTUALLY SINCE
00:39:28THE 90S, WHICH IS ITS OWN SIDE
00:39:30STORY, BUT TRUMP'S TEAM REALLY,
00:39:34REALLY BELIEVES IN FOR THOSE NUMBERS WITH REASON.
00:39:38HE WILL HE ACCURATELY CALL IT TO THE MARGIN OF ERROR.
00:39:40THE SWING STATES IN TERMS OF
00:39:42TRUMP'S VICTORY MARGIN IN 2024.
00:39:45IT WAS IT WAS PRETTY REMARKABLE. AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER WHEN
00:39:48I SAY ON AIR THAT, YOU KNOW, TRUMP WON OVERWHELMINGLY OR
00:39:52WHATEVER THAT IS TRUE, HE DID NOT WIN THE MAJORITY OF THE
00:39:56POPULAR VOTE. HE'S ALSO THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO WIN THE POPULAR VOTE IN 20 YEARS.
00:40:00SO OR WAS AT THE TIME AS WELL AS
00:40:04A SIZABLE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VICTORY.
00:40:07SO IT WAS A DEFINITIVE WIN THAT HE DID NOT HAVE IN 2016.
00:40:10SO PUTTING THAT ASIDE, FABRIZIO
00:40:12HAS THIS MEMO THAT HE CIRCULATES
00:40:16AND HE CIRCULATES POLLING TO A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE AROUND
00:40:20TRUMP ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS. BUT THIS ONE THAT WE GOT WAS IN
00:40:24PARTICULAR IN WAS IN DECEMBER OF 2025, AND IT WAS AFTER TRUMP HAD
00:40:28DONE A SPEECH THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.
00:40:32AND INSTEAD HE, TRUMP REFERRED TO AFFORDABILITY AS, YOU KNOW, I THINK A CON JOB.
00:40:35AND THAT SAME SPEECH AND A HOAX. AND IF I'M IF I'M DESCRIBING
00:40:39WORDS, HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY AT THAT EVENT, IT'S BECAUSE HE GETS OF THEM ELSEWHERE.
00:40:42AND FOR REASONS A POLLING MEMO
00:40:45SAYS THAT UNLESS THE WHITE HOUSE
00:40:47AND THE GOP ARE HONEST, HONEST
00:40:49IS IN ALL CAPS WITH VOTERS, UM,
00:40:53THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE REAL, REAL PROBLEM WITH THIS MIDTERMS.
00:40:56AND SO YOU'VE SEEN AN EFFORT BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO TRY TO GET
00:40:59TRUMP TO FOCUS ON THIS AS OPPOSED TO HIS REDECORATING
00:41:02PROJECTS AS OPPOSED TO MONUMENTS
00:41:06TO HIMSELF OR, YOU KNOW, BEAUTIFICATION PROJECTS AROUND
00:41:10DC OR REVAMPING A GOLF COURSE THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY BELONG TO
00:41:14THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SO FORTH. AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL.
00:41:17UM, BUT HE, I, I THERE WAS A
00:41:22BIPARTISAN HOUSING BILL THAT WAS
00:41:24WIDELY SEEN AS SOMETHING THAT
00:41:26WOULD ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW
00:41:30IN, IN THEIR FINANCIAL CRISES.
00:41:32AND TRUMP, AFTER HIS OWN AIDES HAD TOUTED IT AS PROMISES MADE
00:41:37PROMISES KEPT, TORPEDOED SIGNING
00:41:39IT BECAUSE HE WANTS INSTEAD THE
00:41:42SENATE TO PASS A BILL THAT THE
00:41:44REPUBLICAN SENATORS HAVE MADE
00:41:46CLEAR THERE IS NO MAJORITY TO
00:41:49PASS, WHICH IS A VOTING BILL
00:41:51CALLED THE HE'S CALLING IT THE SAVE AMERICA ACT.
00:41:55THAT WOULD PUT MASSIVE RESTRICTIONS ON WHO CAN VOTE AND
00:41:57HOW AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ALREADY LAWS ABOUT A MIRROR.
00:42:01ONLY AMERICANS CAN VOTE IN
00:42:03ELECTIONS THAT FELT LIKE TERM
00:42:06ONE, WHERE AIDES WOULD GO OUT ON A LIMB AND SAY SOMETHING AND AND
00:42:09HE WOULD PULL IT BACK. BUT YOU'VE SEEN A LOT LESS OF
00:42:12THAT THIS TIME, IN PART BECAUSE
00:42:15HIS AIDES ARE REALLY RELUCTANT TO GET AHEAD OF HIM. AND SO, YES, POLICY IS WHATEVER
00:42:19THE PRESIDENT SAYS IT IS AND WHATEVER HE LAST SAID IS J.D. VANCE.
00:42:25USUALLY IN THE ROOM FOR DECISION? YEAH. YES.
00:42:28HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEIR RELATIONSHIP?
00:42:31UM, IT'S SO TRUMP LOVES SO
00:42:34CONVERT. RIGHT.
00:42:36AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF THEM AROUND HIM.
00:42:39YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY. LIKE PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP, A
00:42:42COUPLE OF THEM IN THE MOST SENIOR ROLES, ALMOST NO ONE HAS
00:42:46SAID WORSE THINGS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RUBIO HAS CALLED HIM A CON ARTIST.
00:42:52VANCE PRIVATELY COMPARED HIM TO ADOLF HITLER.
00:42:54BUT TRUMP LOVES A CONVERT. SO THAT'S NUMBER ONE.
00:42:58NUMBER TWO, HE CAME INTO TRUMP'S
00:43:00ORBIT LARGELY THROUGH THE DONALD
00:43:03TRUMP JUNIOR TUCKER CARLSON
00:43:06CHANNEL AS A ANTI WAR POPULIST
00:43:13MAGA TO THE NTH DEGREE. RIGHT?
00:43:16MORE MAGA THAN TRUMP IN TERMS OF
00:43:17ACTUALLY BELIEVING IN THE
00:43:20PRINCIPLES OF ANTI INTERVENTION ISM HARD, MORE HARDCORE
00:43:25ANTI-IMMIGRATION, ETC. HE HE GOT TRUMP'S BLESSING FOR HIS SENATE
00:43:29RACE AND THEN RAN A PRETTY
00:43:31AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN WITH HIS ALLIES TO BECOME THE VICE
00:43:35PRESIDENT, INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP JR.
00:43:37HE WAS HUGE AND A LAW MASK AND TUCKER CARLSON AND CHARLIE COOK
00:43:41AND ALL OF THEM. TRUMP THOUGHT HE WAS BRILLIANT
00:43:43ON TELEVISION. YOU KNOW, HE WOULD SEE HIM IN
00:43:47THE DEBATES, IN HIS SENATE DEBATES. HE WOULD SEE HIM LOVE SEEING HIM
00:43:50GO INTO COMBAT ENVIRONMENTS LIKE WHEN HE GOES ON CNN.
00:43:54TRUMP WOULD COMMENT HOW HANDSOME HE WILL.
00:43:57YOU HAVE CENTRAL, YOU KNOW, GOOD LOOKING GUY, AS HE OFTEN DOES,
00:44:01AND THAT TRUMP WAS IMPRESSED THAT HE GOT INTO YALE WITHOUT
00:44:03HAVING A RICH DADDY. RIGHT.
00:44:07THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO
00:44:10HAVE OBSERVED THAT TRUMP HAS A WARMER PERSONAL CHEMISTRY WITH
00:44:14MARCO RUBIO AND TRUMP, AS WE'VE
00:44:16DOCUMENTED IN THE BOOK, REALLY
00:44:18LIKES TO MESS WITH VANCE AND
00:44:21BRINGS RUBIO IN.
00:44:23SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN HE SELECTS
00:44:25THIS YOUNG GUY AS HIS VICE
00:44:29PRESIDENT, OF COURSE, THE NATURAL OBSERVATION IS, WELL,
00:44:33HE'S HE'S ANOINTED HIS HEIR. RIGHT. THE 2028 CANDIDATE.
00:44:36BUT TRUMP IS GOING OUT OF HIS WAY TO MAKE CLEAR THAT HE
00:44:40DOESN'T NECESSARILY DO IT THAT WAY. AND HE'S OFTEN PITTING THEM
00:44:44AGAINST EACH OTHER, ASKING PEOPLE WHO THEY PREFER.
00:44:47WE HAVE THIS WILD SCENE IN THE
00:44:51BOOK WHERE RUPERT MURDOCH COMES
00:44:54TO THE WHITE HOUSE FOR DINNER. IT'S OCTOBER LAST YEAR, AND
00:44:58THEY'RE IN THE BLUE ROOM, WHICH
00:45:00IS THIS VERY ORNATE, OPULENT
00:45:04ROOM IN THE WHITE HOUSE RESIDENCE. AND THEY'RE ALL SITTING AROUND THE TABLE AND IT'S RUPERT
00:45:08MURDOCH. TRUMP A FEW AIDES.
00:45:12VANCE AND RUBIO AT THE TABLE AND TRUMP SITTING THERE.
00:45:15AND HE SAYS RUPERT, YOU KNOW, I LIKE BOTH OF THEM.
00:45:18THEY'RE BOTH GREAT BECAUSE WHAT DO YOU THINK OF JD AND AND
00:45:24MURDOCH? MURDOCH, WHO HAD GONE OUT OF HIS
00:45:26WAY TO TRY TO PREVENT VANCE FROM BEING THE VICE PRESIDENT, HE
00:45:30SAYS, YOU KNOW, JD HAS THE
00:45:34POTENTIAL TO BE GREAT. AND VANCE IS LIKE, OH, GEE, THANKS, RUPERT.
00:45:38YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT YOU KNOW, IT'S A SORT OF FUNNY MOMENT THAT
00:45:40VERY LOADED, AWKWARD LIMIT. AND TRUMP SAYS, AND WHAT DO YOU
00:45:43THINK ABOUT MARKOV? AND MURDOCH JUST STONE COLD
00:45:49THOUGHT. IT DOESN'T DISSIPATE. HE SAYS. MARCO'S BRILLIANT.
00:45:51AND SO THAT WAS THIS MOMENT
00:45:53WHERE TRUMP LITERALLY IN FRONT OF THEM, WHILE THEY WERE SITTING
00:45:56THERE WITH THE MOST POWERFUL PROPRIETOR OF CONSERVATIVE MEDIA
00:46:00IN AMERICAN HISTORY, GETS HIM TO
00:46:04ESSENTIALLY DO A BEAUTY PAGEANT OF HIS SUCCESS. SO THAT'S THE DYNAMIC.
00:46:09LET'S JUST SAY IT'S COMPLICATED. BOTH YOU REPORT ALSO THAT MARCO
00:46:12RUBIO HAS BASICALLY MOVED INTO THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:46:16SO THAT HE CAN BE THE LAST ONE IN THE ROOM IN A SENSE. IS THAT FAIR?
00:46:19I MEAN, MARCO RUBIO PRIMARILY WORKS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, AT
00:46:22LEAST IN OUR EXPERIENCE. NOW, I THINK THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM MIGHT CONTEST THE EXACT
00:46:25NUMBER OF HOURS THAT HE SPENDS THERE VERSUS THE STATE
00:46:29DEPARTMENT. HE HAS TOLD SOME ADVISERS, YOU KNOW, LOOK, HE DOES TRY TO START
00:46:33HIS DAYS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, BUT, I MEAN, I CAN JUST TELL YOU, BASED ON
00:46:37EXPERIENCE AND JONATHAN HAS HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS WE COVER
00:46:39THIS WHITE HOUSE AT LEAST BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU COULD WALK
00:46:42UP TO UPPER PRESS, WHICH IS WHERE THE PRESS SECRETARY'S OFFICE IT'S NOW SITS, IT'S NOW
00:46:48LIMITED UNLESS YOU HAVE AN APPOINTMENT. BUT RUBIO WOULD BE RUNNING
00:46:52AROUND. I MEAN, HE WOULD HE WOULD RUN FROM ONE OFFICE TO THE NEXT.
00:46:55AND WHAT WAS STRIKING WAS HE
00:46:57CLEARLY SEEMED TO BE ENJOYING
00:47:00HIS ROLE AND ENJOYING BEING IN
00:47:04THIS PARTICULAR MILIEU.
00:47:07WHAT EXACTLY RUBIO WANTS LONG TERM, I DON'T THINK THAT EITHER
00:47:11OF US REALLY FEEL LIKE WE CAN SAY IT. HE'S CERTAINLY NOT DOING ANY OF
00:47:15THE THINGS ONE WOULD DO IF THEY WERE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. AND IN FACT, WE WRITE ABOUT HOW
00:47:18SUPPORTIVE HE WAS OF VANCE IN 2024 WHEN VANCE HAD THAT.
00:47:24WHAT I THINK VANCE HAS NOW DESCRIBED AS A IN ILL ADVISED
00:47:28YOU KNOW, SINGLE LADIES COMMENT OR WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HE SAID
00:47:32CHILDLESS LADIES. RUBIO WAS VERY SUPPORTIVE OF
00:47:34VANCE, AND THEY THEY DO HAVE AN ACTUAL FRIENDSHIP THAT DOESN'T
00:47:38OBVIOUSLY WITH ME IN ANYTHING IN POLITICS.
00:47:39BUT RUBIO IS AROUND TRUMP A LOT.
00:47:43RUBY TRUMP LIKES TALKING TO RUBIO, AS JONATHAN SAID, AND IT
00:47:46IS, I THINK, NOT JUST THE PERSONAL CHEMISTRY, BUT I THINK IT'S THE WAY HE PRESENTS
00:47:50INFORMATION TO HIM. WELL, IT'S ANOTHER THING, WHICH IS I MEAN, HE'S A SECRETARY OF
00:47:54STATE WHO BARELY CORRECT. RIGHT.
00:47:56WHICH IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL, BUT IT'S ALSO SMART BECAUSE HE
00:48:02UNDERSTANDS. WELL, RUBIO UNDERSTANDS THAT IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE ROOM WITH
00:48:05TRUMP, IF YOU'RE NOT LITERALLY THERE, YOU'RE JUST OUT OF THE
00:48:09LOOP, CORRECT. THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS IN THAT
00:48:12LITTLE OVAL OFFICE AND TRUMP MAKES THE DECISIONS.
00:48:15THERE'S REALLY NO I MEAN, I WON'T TO BE TOO SWEEPING, BUT
00:48:19THERE'S NOT MUCH OF AN INTERAGENCY PROCESS, LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY.
00:48:22THERE'S NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF COORDINATION ACROSS THE AGENCIES.
00:48:25IT IS A VERY SMALL GROUP. AND IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE ROOM,
00:48:29NOT ONLY DO YOU NOT NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN ON THE
00:48:33ISSUE, YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW ABOUT A DECISION THAT WAS MADE.
00:48:36HE'S MAKING DECISIONS VERY QUICKLY, IN MANY CASES
00:48:39IMPULSIVELY ON THE SPOT. AND SO IF YOU'RE NOT THERE,
00:48:42YOU'RE NOT THERE THAT THE TARIFF
00:48:43ISSUE SEEMED TO BE ALMOST AD HOC
00:48:46IN A SENSE THAT ALMOST IT WAS THE WAY YOU REPORTING IT. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
00:48:50ACTUALLY, A COLLEAGUE OF OURS TEXTED ME. I THINK I FORGOT TO TELL YOU THIS.
00:48:54I WAS READING THE BOOK, TEXTED ME LAST NIGHT AND SAID I WAS GOING TO WAIT UNTIL I FINISH THE
00:48:59BOOK TO TELL YOU WHAT I THOUGHT, BUT I JUST FINISHED THE TARIFF
00:49:01SCENE AND I CAN'T GET OVER THIS. AND MY DRAWERS ON THE FLOOR JUST
00:49:05ABOUT HOW REVEALING THIS WAS.
00:49:09AND, YOU KNOW, WE WE HAVE THIS VERY DETAILED INSIDE THE ROOM
00:49:12REPORTING ABOUT HOW THIS FORMULA
00:49:16FOR THIS GLOBAL TRADE WAR THAT TRUMP WAS ABOUT TO BRING ON TO
00:49:19THE WORLD AND TRUMP HIS ADVISERS WILL TALK ABOUT. AND THEY'RE RIGHT THAT HE HAS
00:49:23BEEN TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS FOR MANY, MANY DECADES. BUT LITERALLY JUST THE WORD TARIFF.
00:49:27IT'S IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF OTHER COUNTRIES WERE RIPPING US OFF.
00:49:30IT'S NOT IN A LONG HELD ECONOMIC THEORY OF THE CASE AND HOW IT
00:49:34MIGHT WORK. AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT HE WANTED TO DO IN HIS FIRST TERM
00:49:38AND HE DIDN'T DO IT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. BUT ONE OF THEM WAS THAT HE HAD
00:49:41AIDS LIKE A GARY COHN, WHOSE
00:49:44ECONOMIC CREDENTIALS HE REALLY
00:49:46HIS HIS ECONOMIC ADVISOR AT THE
00:49:48TIME, WHOSE ECONOMIC CREDENTIAL WAS TRUMP REALLY RESPECTED OR AT
00:49:52LEAST ACKNOWLEDGED WERE SUBSTANTIAL. AND COHN WAS REALLY WILLING TO
00:49:56GET IN TRUMP'S FACE AND SAY, DON'T DO THIS.
00:49:59AS WE HAVE SAID, THERE IS A LOT LESS OF THAT THIS TIME.
00:50:02BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT TRUMP HAS WANTED TO TRY FOR A LONG TIME.
00:50:05AND SO THIS FORMULA FOR THESE
00:50:08TARIFFS WAS ESSENTIALLY DONE THE
00:50:12NIGHT BEFORE. AND IT WAS LARGELY NOT ENTIRELY,
00:50:14BUT LARGELY BY PETER NAVARRO, WHO WAS TRUMP'S PROTECTIONIST
00:50:18ADVISOR AND WHO TRUMP LIKES A LOT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.
00:50:21AND THEN THIS FORMULA BECAME
00:50:24UNEXPLAINABLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
00:50:26AND WE DESCRIBE HOW TWO THINGS WERE GOING ON.
00:50:29ONE, TRUMP WAS IN MANY CASES, JUST COMING UP WITH AN INCREASED
00:50:33TARIFF RATE OFF THE TOP OF HIS HEAD.
00:50:34YOU KNOW, PUT THEM IN FOR 10 IN
00:50:371 CASES AS IF THIS WAS SORT OF A A LEDGER AS OPPOSED TO A TRADE
00:50:41FORMULA. THE OTHER IS IT WAS REALLY
00:50:45STUNNING TO US AS WE WERE REPORTING IT. AND THEN AS WE WERE WE WERE
00:50:47REPORTING IT IN PREPARATION FOR THE BOOK AND IT TO STRESS TEST
00:50:52INFORMATION THAT THE PEOPLE
00:50:54AROUND TRUMP WERE SO ALARMED AT
00:50:58HOW THIS WAS GOING. NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MANY OF THEM EITHER.
00:51:02THEY DIDN'T THINK THAT HE WAS GOING TO REALLY GO THROUGH WITH
00:51:04THIS TARIFF REGIME OR THEY THOUGHT THAT HE WOULD ALLOW MORE
00:51:08CARVE OUTS. AND HE STARTED TO GET ANGRY. BUT HE REALLY TOOK THE GLOBAL
00:51:12ECONOMY TO THE BRINK. AND IT WAS REALLY ONLY WHEN THE
00:51:15BOND MARKETS WERE AT THE POINT OF MELTDOWN THAT HE PULLED BACK.
00:51:19SO LIBERATE ONE DAY THE TARIFF
00:51:23WAR DAY BEGINS ON APRIL 2ND.
00:51:24A FEW DAYS LATER, APRIL 6TH, I
00:51:28THINK IT WAS YOU KNOW, THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND THE COMMERCE SECRETARY IN THE CABIN
00:51:32OF AIR FORCE ONE WITH TRUMP ON A FLIGHT BACK FROM FLORIDA,
00:51:34SAYING, LOOK, WE REALLY DO NEED TO PULL BACK. THERE'S WARNING SIGNS.
00:51:37IT STILL TOOK ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF DAYS UNTIL THAT HAPPENED.
00:51:42SO STEVE WITT COUGH SEEMS TO
00:51:45HAVE SEVERAL JOBS IN THE WHITE
00:51:47HOUSE, BUT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE. IS THAT CORRECT?
00:51:52NO, HE IS. HE IS I THINK HE'S AN ENVOY. YEAH. OKAY. YEAH, HE'S NOT I DON'T THINK
00:51:56THAT HE'S A SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE BECAUSE HE COULDN'T HE COULDN'T STILL BE IN THIS LONG, I WOULD IMAGINE.
00:52:00SO HE'S WORKING ON RUSSIA. HE'S WORKING ON THE MIDDLE EAST. RIGHT. HE'S A HE'S ENVOY FOR EVERYTHING.
00:52:04THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY, A LONGTIME FRIEND OF PRESIDENT
00:52:08TRUMP. YEAH. GOING BACK TO THE 80S, THE FORMER LAWYER FOR HIM WHO THEN BECAME A REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER
00:52:12HIMSELF, THERE'S ANOTHER CHARACTER IN THIS BOOK, NATALIE
00:52:17HARP, WHO IS NATALIE HARP AND
00:52:20WHAT IS HER ROLE IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE?
00:52:23SHE'S A YOUNG WOMAN WHO USED TO
00:52:26BE A TV HOST ON OANN, WHICH IS A
00:52:30FAR RIGHT NETWORK, VERY INVOLVED IN THE POST 2020 CONSPIRACY
00:52:35THEORIES ABOUT THE ELECTION,
00:52:37EXTREMELY DEVOTED TO TRUMP, AND
00:52:40HE HIRED HER WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE.
00:52:44SHE BECAME THIS SORT OF EVER PRESENT AIDE.
00:52:46SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND. THEY CALL HER THE HUMAN PRINTER
00:52:50ON THE STAFF. SHE CARRIES A PORTABLE PRINTER IN HER BACKPACK.
00:52:53SHE'S ALWAYS PRINTING HIM STORIES THAT ARE A GOOD NEWS
00:52:57STORIES CHOICE TO MAKE HIM FEEL GOOD.
00:52:59THAT WAS DURING HIS REALLY HIS LOW EBB AFTER THE YOU KNOW,
00:53:03LEAVING OFFICE. AND SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND ON THE GOLF COURSE WITH THE
00:53:07PRINTER AND SHOW HIM ON FOOT.
00:53:08SO SOMETIMES ON FOOT WE OBTAINED
00:53:11IN OUR REPORTING FOR THE BOOK
00:53:15SOME LETTERS THAT SHE HAD
00:53:18WRITTEN TO THE PRESIDENT DURING THE CAMPAIGN THAT WERE VERY
00:53:24UNUSUAL LETTERS, VERY PERSONAL.
00:53:26AND THEY WERE LEFT IN SOME OF
00:53:28HIS PRIVATE SPACES, AND THEY
00:53:31WERE INCLUDED LINES SUCH AS YOU ARE.
00:53:34ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME WAS ONE OF THE QUOTES.
00:53:38THE SECRET SERVICE BECAME AWARE
00:53:40OF IT AND WERE SOME SOME OF THE SECRET SERVICE AGENTS BECAME
00:53:44QUITE ALARMED BY THE BEHAVIOR. BUT TRUMP WASN'T.
00:53:48TRUMP WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE, SHE'S THE ONLY ONE, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD SORT OF, YOU KNOW, SORT OF
00:53:52JOKE AWAY. BUT THIS IS NEVER QUITE A JOKE. YOU KNOW, SHE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO LOVES ME.
00:53:56YOU KNOW, SHE'LL BE WITH ME. YOU GUYS ALL GO MAKE MONEY. SURE, SHE'LL BE WITH ME.
00:54:00HE, I THINK, VERY MUCH APPRECIATES HER DEVOTION AND
00:54:04LOYALTY AND THAT SHE WILL DO
00:54:06THINGS VERY, VERY QUICKLY.
00:54:08SHE REPRESENTS SOMETHING LARGER IN HIS WORLD AND SOMETHING THAT
00:54:12IS HE'S ALWAYS HAD PEOPLE AROUND
00:54:15HIM WHO ARE DEVOTED SYCOPHANT,
00:54:17WHATEVER SHE IS, OF A DIFFERENT ORDER.
00:54:21AND SHE'S ALSO A CONDUIT WHEN
00:54:25PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WANT TO GET INFORMATION TO DONALD TRUMP
00:54:29AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO GO THROUGH ANY TYPE OF
00:54:31VETTING OR THE CHIEF OF STAFF OR THEY CAN GO THROUGH NATALIE, AND
00:54:36SHE'LL SHOW IT TO HIM. SO SHE IS A CONDUIT.
00:54:40SHE IS A PROVIDER OF GOOD NEWS. SHE IS SOMEONE WHO'S ALWAYS THERE.
00:54:44SHE SITS IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH A LAPTOP OPEN BACK AGAINST THE
00:54:47WALL THROUGH THOSE MEETINGS EVERY DAY, JUST ABOUT EVERY
00:54:51ALMOST EVERY MEETING, JUST ABOUT EVERY MEETING. THAT'S NATALIE HALL.
00:54:55YOU ASKED ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN BEFORE? EPSTEIN BEFORE. AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS
00:54:59ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING
00:55:00A PART OF NATALIE HARP'S REMIT
00:55:04IS, YOU KNOW, ESTABLISHED BY HERSELF AND THE PRESIDENT IS
00:55:08PROVIDING HIM WITH GOOD NEWS THE
00:55:10WAY THAT TRUMP DESCRIBES BORIS
00:55:14EPSTEIN IN PRIVATE IS OR EPSTEIN NOW I CAN'T EVEN ACTUALLY
00:55:18REMEMBER WHICH IS THE ACCURATE
00:55:20PRONUNCIATION IS HE WOULD SAY THAT HE SAYS THINGS TO PEOPLE
00:55:23LIKE HE'S MY PSYCHIATRIST. HE'LL SAY HOW MUCH HE LIKES THAT
00:55:26BORIS IS NEUROTIC, BUT YOU KNOW,
00:55:27AND HE'LL COMPLAIN THAT BORIS IS LIKE, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD SAY
00:55:32DURING 2023 WHEN HE WAS FACING THESE INDICTMENT, TRUMP WAS, YOU
00:55:35KNOW, IF IF I WAS ABOUT TO GET INDICTED, BORIS WOULD CALL ME
00:55:39AND TELL ME HOW IT'S GREAT FOR ME. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, TRUMP
00:55:42REALLY LIKES HAVING BORIS AROUND BECAUSE, AS HE HAS SAID TO
00:55:45PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES YOU JUST WANT SOMEONE WHO'S GOING TO MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD.
00:55:49AND WE WRITE ABOUT THAT AS SOMEONE WHO AND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
00:55:55AND THOSE TWO PEOPLE OR REPRESENT. I MEAN, THERE REALLY IS THERE
00:55:59ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE ACTUAL GOVERNMENT WHO WILL
00:56:02WHO WILL DO LITERALLY WHATEVER TRUMP WANTS. THERE ARE SOME AND I WOULD SAY
00:56:06SO FAR, BASED ON OUR REPORTING,
00:56:10BILL PULTE, WHO WAS THE ACTING DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL
00:56:13INTELLIGENCE, IS AT LEAST POSITIONING HIMSELF THAT WAY.
00:56:16WE'LL SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT. BUT AND HARP IS IN THE
00:56:20GOVERNMENT, BUT SHE'S SORT OF A DIFFERENT CATEGORY. THIS BOOK HAS BEEN THE HARDEST
00:56:24THING EITHER OF US HAS EVER DONE
00:56:28PROFESSIONALLY. WHY DO YOU SAY THAT? ACCURATE?
00:56:30YEAH, YOU WOULD GET A BETTER ANSWER IF YOU SAT DOWN WITH MY
00:56:34WIFE OR MY HUSBAND WHO'S WHO'S PROHIBITED ME FROM EVER WRITING
00:56:37ANOTHER BOOK. SO, I MEAN, LOOK, NOW, YOU KNOW,
00:56:40I'VE COVERED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME.
00:56:43WE'RE BOTH ON BALANCED IN OUR APPROACH TO WORK. I THINK IS FAIR TO SAY.
00:56:46WE BOTH WORK ON BALANCE. YEAH, WE LITTLE OBSESSIVE. WE WORK SEPARATE.
00:56:51WE'VE WORKED. I'VE WORKED SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
00:56:53SO, YOU KNOW, 12 HOUR DAYS FOR A
00:56:55VERY LONG TIME IN MY CAREER.
00:56:57BUT THIS BOOK, I THINK, TOOK IT
00:56:59TO A DIFFERENT LEVEL. AND BY THE END OF IT, I JUST
00:57:03IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN TO A READER
00:57:07HOW HARD IT IS TO GET INSIDE THESE ROOMS AND TO ACTUALLY GET
00:57:10VERIFIED INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE CONFIDENT ABOUT.
00:57:12I MEAN, INSIDE THESE ROOMS AND TO DO THAT PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER
00:57:17PAGE IS IT'S JUST AN IMMENSE EFFORT OF REPORTING THAT
00:57:22BASICALLY KILLED BOTH OF US. YEAH, I HAVE CHILDREN WHO ARE
00:57:24OLDER THAN JONATHAN'S CHILDREN,
00:57:28BUT THEIR WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN ME DOING A VERSION OF THIS.
00:57:30AND THIS WAS NOT A THIS WAS NOT A PERIOD WHERE IT LET UP.
00:57:36SO COLOR GOLD FOR THE COVER ON PURPOSE.
00:57:38NOT IT WAS NOT OUR CALL. IT WAS THE DESIGN TEAM AT SIMON
00:57:41AND SCHUSTER. WE LOVE. AND I WOULD SAY, GOD LOVE THEM
00:57:44BECAUSE IT'S BRILLIANT GENIUS. IF YOU COULD SIT DOWN WITH ONE
00:57:48MEMBER OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FOR ONE HOUR
00:57:51UNFETTERED, WHO WOULD IT BE? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
00:57:55WE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE IT. I DON'T WANT IT COULD HELP WITH
00:57:59THE GOOD HELP THEM NARROW IT DOWN AND THEN. A YEAH, YEAH.
00:58:03MAGGIE HABERMAN, JONATHAN SWAN, NEW YORK TIMES, WHITE HOUSE
00:58:07REPORTERS, THE AUTHOR OF THIS
00:58:08BOOK, REGIME CHANGE INSIDE THE
00:58:11IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP.
00:58:13THANKS FOR SPENDING AN HOUR WITH US HERE ON C SPAN. THANKS FOR HAVING AND THANK YOU.
00:58:17WE ENJOY IT. IT'S GREAT.
00:58:28ALL Q&A PROGRAMS ARE AVAILABLE
00:58:30ON OUR WEBSITE OR AS A PODCAST
00:58:32ON OUR C-SPAN NOW APP.
00:58:43HERE'S A PORTION OF A RECENT PROGRAM ON TV.
00:58:46ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN A
00:58:48DYNAMIC, AT LEAST IN THE CARBON
00:58:52POLLUTION SIDE OF THIS IS IT'S BECOME SO POLAR IZED, IT'S
00:58:55BECOME THE EMISSIONS HAVE BECOME
00:58:58SUCH A POLARIZING THING. DO YOU FIND THAT SAME DYNAMIC TO
00:59:02BE HOLDING OR COMING ABOUT IN PLASTIC? NO, NO.
00:59:06SO WE'RE WORKING ON THIS BILL IN
00:59:08ALBANY AND SIENA UNIVERSITY DID
00:59:13A POLL FOUND 73% OF REGISTERED
00:59:17VOTERS SUPPORTED THIS BILL. WE'RE WORKING ON.
00:59:20AND IT WAS ACROSS THE BOARD,
00:59:22REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, INDEPEN
00:59:24INDIANS WHERE IT GETS PARTIZAN
00:59:27AND IS WHEN IT COMES TO VOTING.
00:59:29SO EVERY VIRTUALLY EVERY REPUBLICAN VOTED AGAINST THIS
00:59:34IMPORTANT BILL. BUT AMONG THE PUBLIC. AND, YOU KNOW, AND I'VE WORKED
00:59:38ON CLIMATE CHANGE. I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT IT. AND I'VE STUDIED THE CLIMATE
00:59:41CHANGE MOVEMENT.
00:59:43WE CAN'T LET PLASTICS BECOME A
00:59:47PARTIZAN ISSUE. AND I DON'T THINK IT IS BECAUSE
00:59:50WE ALL HAVE PLASTIC IN OUR KITCHEN AND WE ALL HAVE A
00:59:54RELATIVE WHO'S HAVING
00:59:56REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CHALLENGES.
00:59:59AND WE'RE ALL READING THE ALZHEIMER'S AND NEUROLOGICAL
01:00:04STUDIES AND AND THE OTHER
01:00:07MADDENING THING IS THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO PLASTIC.
01:00:10WE DON'T NEED A SPACE AGE BREAKTHROUGH.
01:00:13OF COURSE WE WANT WASTE REDUCTION. THAT'S THE SMARTEST THING,
01:00:17BECAUSE YOU ALL GET, YOU KNOW,
01:00:19THINGS YOU BUY ONLINE IN COMING
01:00:22LIKE IT'S ONE OF THOSE RUSSIAN DOLLS. IT'S JUST LAYER AFTER LAYER.
01:00:26SO FIRST REDUCTION AND INVESTING AND RE-USE AND REFILL.
01:00:31BUT THEN IF YOU CAN'T, YOU REDUCE, REUSE, REFILL.
01:00:33THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF YOUR SONG.
01:00:37THEN WE HAVE PAPER CARDBOARD,
01:00:42METAL, GLASS THAT CAN ALL BE
01:00:46MADE FROM RECYCLED MATERIAL AND
01:00:49IS EASILY RECYCLED WHEN YOU PUT
01:00:51THAT IN YOUR RECYCLING BIN AND IT ACTUALLY GETS RECYCLED AS
01:00:55OPPOSED TO THE MYTH OF PLASTICS RECYCLING. YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF