Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:02DEMOCRACY IS ALWAYS AN UNFINISHED CREATION. DEMOCRACY IS WORTH DYING FOR.
00:00:07DEMOCRACY OR C BELONGS TO US ALL. WE ARE HERE IN THE SANCTUARY OF
00:00:11DEMOCRACY. GREAT RESPONSIBILITIES FALL ONCE
00:00:13AGAIN TO THE GREAT DEMOCRACIES. AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS BIGGER
00:00:17THAN ANY ONE PERSON.
00:00:18FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY MUST BE
00:00:22CONSTANTLY GUARDED AND PROTECT IT.
00:00:25WE ARE STILL AT OUR CORE, A DEMOCRACY. THIS IS ALSO A MASSIVE VICTORY
00:00:30FOR DEMOCRACY AND FOR FREEDOM.
00:00:39GOOD MORNING. THANK YOU FOR THAT. GOOD MORNING.
00:00:42GOOD MORNING.
00:00:45GOOD MORNING, EVERYBODY. GOOD MORNING. I LIKE THAT.
00:00:49GOOD MORNING. SO GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
00:00:52AND WELCOME BACK TO DAY TWO OF THE WOMEN'S LEADERSHIP SUMMIT
00:00:56HERE AT GEORGE WASHINGTON'S MOUNT VERNON.
00:00:58NOW, I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT YOU LEFT HERE YESTERDAY.
00:01:02NEWLY INFORMED, NEWLY INSPIRED,
00:01:05AND WITH MANY NEW FRIENDS. MY NAME IS KATE WADDELL AND I
00:01:09SERVE AS VICE REGENT FOR ILLINOIS FOR THE MOUNT VERNON
00:01:12LADIES ASSOCIATION. AND I'M HERE NOW TO INTRODUCE
00:01:16THIS MORNING'S FIRST SESSION
00:01:18WITH ONE OF OUR NATION'S MOST DISTINGUISHED THOUGHT LEADERS.
00:01:22ANNE APPLEBAUM IS A PULITZER PRIZE WINNING HISTORIAN,
00:01:26JOURNALIST AND COMMENTATOR ON GEOPOLITICS.
00:01:29SHE EXAMINES THE CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES OF GLOBAL
00:01:34POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC CHANGE THROUGH THE LENSES OF WORLD
00:01:37HISTORY AND THE CONTEMPORARY POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.
00:01:41SOME OF HER BOOKS PROBABLY
00:01:43FAMILIAR TO MANY OF YOU, INCLUDE
00:01:45PULITZER PRIZE WINNING GULAG A
00:01:47HISTORY RED FAMINE, STALIN'S WAR
00:01:49ON UKRAINE, THE AUTOCRACY, INK,
00:01:54THE DICTATORS WHO WANT TO RUN THE WORLD, WHICH WAS A NEW YORK
00:01:56TIMES BESTSELLER AND RECOGNIZED
00:01:58BY MANY PUBLICATIONS AS BEST
00:02:01BOOK OF THE YEAR FOR MANY YEARS.
00:02:04AND WROTE AND INTERNATIONALLY SYNDICATED WEEKLY EXCUSE ME,
00:02:07BIWEEKLY FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMN FOR THE WASHINGTON POST.
00:02:11SHE IS NOW A STAFF WRITER AT THE
00:02:13ATLANTIC AND WILL BE JOINED IN
00:02:15CONVERSATION BY OUR DR. LINDSAY CHERVINSKY, WHO NEEDS NO
00:02:19INTRODUCTION.
00:02:21SO PLEASE WELCOME AND AND
00:02:23LINDSAY AS THEY PRESENT THE
00:02:25STORYTELLERS, WOMEN WHO WRITE,
00:02:28MAKE AND PRESERVE HISTORY.
00:02:39WE SHOULD START WITH ONE CAVEAT.
00:02:42I HAVE LARYNGITIS.
00:02:44I'M GOING TO DO MY BEST.
00:02:46I TRIED TO THINK OF A JOKE ABOUT LOSING MY VOICE IN THESE
00:02:50TURBULENT TIMES, BUT I COULDN'T THINK OF ONE. SO IT'S JUST LARYNGITIS.
00:02:53SO I'M SORRY. BUT I'LL I'LL POWER THROUGH WHAT
00:02:57I GOT HERE THIS MORNING.
00:02:59I SAID I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU
00:03:01DIDN'T CANCEL ON ME AS.
00:03:08I'M ON. RIGHT? YES, BUT CAN YOU HEAR ME?
00:03:12NO, I FORGOT.
00:03:14I TOOK CARE OF THAT PART. HERE WE GO.
00:03:17OKAY, SO I SAID I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU DIDN'T CANCEL ON ME BECAUSE
00:03:20YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN WELL IN YOUR RIGHT WITH NO VOICE TO.
00:03:23AND YET SHE'S STILL HEARING THAT ABOUT 3 A.M. TO BE HERE. SO WE ARE INCREDIBLY GRATEFUL
00:03:26FOR ALL OF THAT. THANK YOU.
00:03:30I AM ALSO PARTICULARLY HONORED
00:03:33BECAUSE WHEN I WAS THINKING OF THE WRITERS AND THE SPEAKERS WHO
00:03:36I HAVE LEARNED THE MOST FROM, WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE
00:03:39WHO SHAPE HOW I VIEW THE WORLD, WHO THINK ABOUT HOW I THINK
00:03:43ABOUT TOPICS LIKE AUTOCRACY,
00:03:45LIKE DEMOCRACY, GLOBAL AFFAIRS, WHERE WE ARE IN THE WORLD AT
00:03:49THIS MOMENT AND IS ABSOLUTELY AT THE TOP OF THAT LIST.
00:03:52AND SO I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT YOU ARE HERE. THANK YOU.
00:03:55NOW, WE HAD PLANNED OUT A WHOLE
00:03:57CONVERSATION ABOUT ANN'S WORK AND HER CAREER, AND WE ARE GOING
00:04:01TO GET TO THOSE THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE GROUNDBREAKING AND
00:04:03REALLY, REALLY INSPIRATIONAL. BUT I FELT THAT IT WOULD BE
00:04:07REMISS AND REALLY INAPPROPRIATE IF I DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT IS
00:04:10GOING ON IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. AND SO WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE
00:04:14A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT IRAN AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT
00:04:17THE ACTUAL MILITARY FIGHTING BECAUSE THAT'S NOT REALLY NECESSARILY OUR AREA OF
00:04:22EXPERTISE OR EVEN THE POLITICS OF IT.
00:04:25BUT I WOULD LOVE YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HAD SUCH A LONG
00:04:28RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE IN IRAN
00:04:31AND IT IS A VERY COMPLICATED, I
00:04:33THINK, SPACE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE RIGHT NOW TO BE THINKING ABOUT
00:04:39WHAT IT MEANS TO WANT TO SEE THE END OF A TERRIBLE AUTOCRAT AND
00:04:41YET ALSO WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD. AND I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW HOW
00:04:45YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THAT. RIGHT. SO, YEAH, I WAS ON THE BOARD OF
00:04:48AN IRANIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION FOR MANY YEARS. I HAVE SOME CLOSE FRIENDS WHO
00:04:52ARE PART OF THE UKRAINIAN UKRAINE, IRANIAN DEMOCRATIC
00:04:57OPPOSITION, AND I HAVE KNOWN FOR
00:05:00YEARS THAT THE IRANIAN REGIME WAS ONE OF A I MEAN, THIS IS
00:05:04THIS IS THE TOPIC OF MY BOOK CALLED OCRACY. AND IT'S ONE OF A GROUP OF
00:05:08REGIMES WHO HAVE AS REALLY ONE
00:05:11OF THEIR PRIMARY IDEOLOGICAL
00:05:14PURPOSES THE UNDERMINING OF OF
00:05:18THE IDEAS AND IDEALS OF LIBERAL
00:05:20DEMOCRACY AND THE CREATION OF A
00:05:23THEOCRATIC STATE THAT THEY HOPE
00:05:25TO SPREAD AROUND THE REGION AS
00:05:27IT IS A UNIQUELY AND UNIQUELY
00:05:32UGLY, UNIQUELY VIOLENT AND
00:05:35UNIQUELY RUTHLESS REGIME.
00:05:37IT HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY COLD WOMEN.
00:05:40THE THE WOMEN WERE LOST.
00:05:43THEIR RIGHTS LOST, THEIR ABILITY
00:05:45TO DECIDE HOW TO DRESS AND WHAT TO WEAR AND WHAT TO BELIEVE.
00:05:49WE SAW THE THERE BEEN A SERIES
00:05:51OF PROTESTS THAT HAVE BEEN LED BY AND ORGANIZED BY WOMEN THAT
00:05:55HAVE ENDED VERY BRUTALLY WITH MANY DEATHS AND ARRESTS AND MANY
00:05:58PEOPLE IN EXILE. AND SO I AM, YOU KNOW, THE
00:06:02PROSPECT OF THIS REGIME FALLING
00:06:04IS IS ONE I REALLY WELCOME.
00:06:06AND I WOULD HOPE AND IT'S HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE HOW IT COULD
00:06:10BE DEFENDED.
00:06:12AT THE SAME TIME, I AM NOT
00:06:14CONVINCED THAT THIS
00:06:16ADMINISTRATION HAS THE FUTURE OF
00:06:19THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, LET ALONE IRANIAN WOMEN.
00:06:21IN ITS MIND, AS THE AS YOU KNOW,
00:06:26THEIR FUTURE AND THEIR WELL-BEING IS THE AIM OF THIS
00:06:30CONFLICT. AND THERE I HAVE A NUMBER OF I
00:06:33MEAN, SINCE WE'RE IN AN AMERICAN PRESIDENTIAL INSTITUTION, YOU
00:06:37KNOW, THE FACT THAT THIS WAS A WAR THAT WAS NOT ONLY NOT AGREED
00:06:41WITH CONGRESS AS THE IRAQ WAR
00:06:44WAS, BUT WAS NOT EVER PRESENTED
00:06:48OR EXPLAINED TO AMERICANS BEFORE IT BEGAN, THAT IT HAS IN THE
00:06:53COURSE OF THE FIRST WEEK OF THE
00:06:55WAR, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL DIFFERENT EXPLANATIONS OF ITS
00:06:59PURPOSE AND ITS GOALS. ALL THAT WORRIES ME, BOTH FOR
00:07:03AMERICA AND DOMESTIC POLITICS,
00:07:05BECAUSE WHEN OUR LEADERS TAKE
00:07:08THE DECISION TO PUT AMERICANS IN HARM'S WAY AND TO USE, YOU KNOW,
00:07:13MANY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AS IT WILL, WILL EVENTUALLY BE OF
00:07:18AMERICAN MILITARY EQUIPMENT, WE SHOULD KNOW AND WE SHOULD WE SHOULD EVER WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND
00:07:21WITH WHAT THE GOALS ARE. AND SO I IT'S VERY HARD FOR ME
00:07:25TO TELL YOU RIGHT NOW WHAT THE OUTCOME WILL BE, BECAUSE
00:07:28ACTUALLY THE OTHER ISSUE WITH THE WAR IS WE HAVE NOT VERY MUCH
00:07:31GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF TARGETS ARE BEING HIT,
00:07:34WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT WHAT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE ON THE GROUND.
00:07:38THAT'S PARTLY BECAUSE IT'S VERY HARD TO GET JOURNALISTS INTO IRAN, ALTHOUGH I THINK I THINK
00:07:43CNN DID YESTERDAY. AND IT'S ALSO BECAUSE THE
00:07:48PENTAGON ON NOW HAS NEW RULES. SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE READ ABOUT
00:07:51THIS, ABOUT WHICH KINDS OF REPORTERS CAN HAVE ACCESS TO
00:07:54BRIEFINGS AND GET INFORMATION.
00:07:56AND PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THOSE RULES WERE WRITTEN, ALMOST
00:08:00ALL OF THE AMERICAN PUBLICATIONS
00:08:04DO SERIOUS WAR REPORTING OR SERIOUS REPORTING ON ON DEFENSE
00:08:08ISSUES. AND SECURITY ISSUES HAVEN'T BEEN PART OF THE PENTAGON PRESS CORPS
00:08:13FOR A LONG TIME OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS, RATHER.
00:08:17AND SO, YOU KNOW, I FEEL THIS I
00:08:18FEEL THE LACK OF INFORMATION AND
00:08:21I FEEL UNCERTAIN ABOUT WHAT THE GAINS ARE.
00:08:25AND, OF COURSE, I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WHAT THE COSTS COULD
00:08:28BE, BOTH FOR THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU KNOW, FOR THE ECONOMY, FOR
00:08:32OIL, FOR PEOPLE IN IRAN AND FOR PEOPLE IN THE REGION.
00:08:36SO THAT'S MY IT'S I LIKE TO HAVE
00:08:40VERY DEFINITIVE AND CLEAR VIEWS ABOUT SUBJECTS ON THIS.
00:08:44I FEEL THERE'S A NUANCED STORY.
00:08:48SO, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE WE
00:08:51BEGIN AND ONE OF THE BIG THEMES OF OF THIS CONFERENCE HAS BEEN
00:08:55LEGACY. AND WE HEARD YESTERDAY WHEN PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT
00:08:59PRESIDENTIAL LEGACIES, TALKING ABOUT FIRST LADIES, THAT OFTENTIMES THESE THINGS TAKE A
00:09:02WHILE TO PLAY OUT BECAUSE EITHER WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE
00:09:06INFORMATION OR THINGS ARE STILL UNFOLDING WITH THIS TYPE OF OF
00:09:10WAR OR EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE A OVER
00:09:13FOLLOWERS GAME LIKE WE SAW WITH
00:09:15SYRIA, WHAT SORT OF TIME SPAN SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT
00:09:20UNDERSTANDING THE LEGACY? OH, I MEAN, YOU NEED A DECADE, TWO DECADES.
00:09:22I MEAN, WHEN YOU HAVE A YOU KNOW, BEFORE YOU CAN SAY WHETHER
00:09:28WHETHER I MEAN, SYRIA IS A VERY INTERESTING CASE. OF COURSE, THE SYRIAN REGIME
00:09:31FELL COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS.
00:09:34IT WAS IT WAS TRUE THAT IT WAS
00:09:38WELL, ESSENTIALLY THE SYRIAN REGIME FELL BECAUSE NEITHER IRAN
00:09:42NOR RUSSIA WERE LONG ANY LONGER
00:09:44ABLE TO SUPPORT IT. AND THIS WAS THIS IS, AGAIN, THE
00:09:48TOPIC OF MY BOOK WAS THE WAY IN WHICH AUTOCRACIES SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER.
00:09:51AND THAT WAS NO LONGER POSSIBLE
00:09:53IN SYRIA BECAUSE OF RUSSIA'S WAR
00:09:55IN IRAN AND AND OTHERS THOUGHT ABORTION VERSUS WAR IN UKRAINE.
00:09:59SO MIX OF THE WORDS UKRAINE AND IRAN, WHICH IS THE WORD YOU'VE
00:10:03BEEN TALKING ABOUT, BOTH OF THEM. AND SO IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE. AND IRAN'S AND IRAN'S CONFLICT
00:10:07WITH ISRAEL. AND SO THE REGIME ESSENTIALLY
00:10:10WAS ONLY IN POWER BECAUSE IT WAS
00:10:14ABLE TO PAY ITS LIEUTENANTS AND
00:10:16ITS, YOU KNOW, THE ARMY AND THE SECURITY POLICE.
00:10:19AND ONCE THAT ONCE THE THE MONEY RAN OUT, PEOPLE WERE JUST NO
00:10:23LONGER WILLING TO FIGHT. AND THAT WAS A YOU KNOW, IT WAS
00:10:27A IT WAS A IT WAS A REGIME THAT HAD NO LEGITIMACY, HAD NO IT HAD
00:10:31NO REAL SUPPORT. IT HAD SOME SUPPORT.
00:10:34IT WAS IT HAD A YOU KNOW, IT WAS NO LONGER ABLE TO MOTIVATE THE
00:10:37PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED IT. I MEAN, THERE IS SOME HOPE THAT
00:10:41THAT GOING TO HAPPEN IN IRAN BECAUSE THERE ARE ALSO MANY
00:10:44PEOPLE WHO ARE DISILLUSIONED WITH THE REGIME.
00:10:46REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU HAVE AND AN ECONOMIC CATASTROPHE OF THE SCALE YOU'VE HAD IN IRAN AND
00:10:50WHEN YOU'VE HAD MASS PROTESTS
00:10:52LEAD TO, YOU KNOW, MASS MURDERS, THAT AFFECTS EVERYBODY,
00:10:56INCLUDING PEOPLE IN THE ARMY AND OF THE SECURITY SERVICES. YOU KNOW, THEY'LL HAVE A COUSIN
00:10:59WHO DIED IN THE PROTEST OR
00:11:02THEY'LL HAVE A SISTER WHO, YOU
00:11:05KNOW, WHO'S WHO LOST HER LIFE OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE REGIME.
00:11:10AND SO AND SO IT MAY AFFECT THEM AS WELL. THE ONLY THING THAT WORRIES ME
00:11:13ABOUT THE IRANIAN REGIME IS THAT
00:11:16UNLIKE THE SYRIAN REGIME, IT'S A THEOCRACY. AND SO THE PEOPLE WHO RUN IT
00:11:20BELIEVE THAT THEY THEIR LEGITIMACY COMES FROM GOD AND
00:11:22THAT THEY ARE YOU KNOW, THAT
00:11:24THEY ARE RELIGIOUS ACTORS ACTING
00:11:26OUT A RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION.
00:11:30AND THAT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FROM, YOU KNOW, IN A
00:11:33KIND OF EVEN A SECULAR FORM OF
00:11:36AUTHORITARIANISM. SO THERE MAY BE PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO FIGHT TO THE END,
00:11:39EVEN EVEN DESPITE KNOWING THAT
00:11:43THAT THEY DON'T HAVE NATIONAL SUPPORT, YOU KNOW, AND THAT
00:11:45THEY'RE NOT BEING PAID.
00:11:47SO THAT'S MY THAT WOULD BE MY CONCERN ABOUT WRONG. THAT WILL.
00:11:51BUT WE'LL SEE. I MEAN, MY MY OTHER CONCERN, I SUPPOSE, IS THAT, YOU KNOW,
00:11:54THERE ARE THERE IS A GOOD OUTCOME THAT COULD HAPPEN.
00:11:58THERE COULD BE YOU COULD IMAGINE A COUNCIL OF DIFFERENT MEMBERS
00:12:02OF THE OPPOSITION OR IN THE COUNTRY AND OUTSIDE, MAYBE EVEN
00:12:06THE RETURN OF THE SHAH, WHO WAS SUPPORT AND BEING PLAYING A ROLE
00:12:10OF KIND OF UNIFICATION.
00:12:12YOU CAN ALSO IMAGINE IRAN SPIRALING INTO A REALLY TERRIBLE
00:12:16CIVIL WAR AND THAT, YOU KNOW, AND BECOMING LIKE SYRIA, YOU
00:12:20KNOW, LONG RUNNING BASKET CASE. AND THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER FOR THE IRANIANS.
00:12:26AND FOR THE RUN FOR THE REGION. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO CIRCLE BACK
00:12:29TO SORT OF THE THEMES OF DEMOCRACY AND AUTOCRACY. BUT AND WE'RE ALSO GOING TO BE
00:12:34MINDFUL BECAUSE THE SESSION IS SCHEDULED FOR AN HOUR, BUT WE
00:12:36MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY PUSH IN VOICE THAT LONG. LET'S YEAH.
00:12:42SO ONE OF THE ONE OF THE OTHER THEMES WE'VE TALKED ABOUT AND THIS WAS INADVERTENT AND A
00:12:47WONDER FULL DISCOVERY IS AS I WAS PREPARING FOR SOME OF THESE
00:12:49CONVERSATIONS, IS THAT SO MANY OF THE WOMEN HERE, IN ADDITION
00:12:52TO ACCOMPLISHING EXTRAORDINARY THINGS, WITNESS EXTRAORDINARY THINGS IN HISTORY.
00:12:57AND WHEN I WAS READING ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, I SAW THAT YOU
00:13:01DROVE TO COVER THE COLLAPSE OF THE BERLIN WALL. YES.
00:13:05WOW. DID YOU HAVE A SENSE? WELL, ONE, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW
00:13:09WHAT THAT WAS LIKE, BUT DID YOU
00:13:11HAVE A SENSE OF AT THAT TIME HOW BIG HOW BIG THAT MOMENT WAS?
00:13:15YES. WE TALK ABOUT LEGACY. YES. YES.
00:13:19SO THAT'S SLIGHTLY PROBLEMATIC
00:13:20FOR ME BECAUSE I, I OFTEN TALK
00:13:24ABOUT WHEN WE'RE LIVING IN HISTORIC MOMENTS LIKE WE WE KNOW WE'RE MAKING HISTORY. WE JUST DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW
00:13:28WHICH DIRECTION IT'S GOING. THAT'S TRUE. OKAY. SO YOU KNEW IT WAS HISTORIC.
00:13:32YOU JUST DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS DIRECTION. OKAY, GREAT. MY, MY, MY PRIORS AND EVEN LET
00:13:35ME EVEN SUPPORT YOUR THESIS. OKAY, GREAT.
00:13:37SO I WAS AT THAT TIME LIVING IN WARSAW.
00:13:40I WAS A FREE LANCE COURSE. I MEAN, I WAS. I WAS WRITING FOR THE ECONOMIST
00:13:44MAGAZINE AND ALSO FOR A BRITISH NEWSPAPER CALLED THE
00:13:48INDEPENDENT. THIS WAS IN IN IN NOVEMBER OF 1989.
00:13:52AND I HAD DROPPED OUT OF MY PHD
00:13:55PROGRAM, WHICH I NEVER FINISHED,
00:13:57AND INSTEAD HAD MOVED TO POLAND
00:13:59AND WAS WORKING AS A JOURNALIST. I WAS I WAS QUITE YOUNG.
00:14:02MY MID-TWENTIES AND ON THE THE
00:14:05FIRST NIGHT THAT THE WALL, THE
00:14:08WALL WENT WAS TAKEN DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND OR WAS
00:14:13NOT TAKEN DOWN. THE ONE PART OF IT WAS OPENED. AND THERE ARE A FEW INTERESTING
00:14:18STORIES THAT I MEAN, ONE IS THERE HAVE IN THE IN RECENT
00:14:21YEARS, HE WASN'T NOBODY PAID ANY ATTENTION TO HIM AT THE TIME.
00:14:25BUT THE MAN WHO ACTUALLY MADE
00:14:25THAT DECISION WAS A BORDER GUARD
00:14:29WHO WAS SITTING AT THE WALL ON THAT NIGHT.
00:14:31AND THERE HAD BEEN A TRY TO MAKE THIS A LONG STORY SHORT, BUT
00:14:35THERE HAD BEEN A PRESS CONFERENCE AND EAST GERMAN PRESS CONFERENCE. THE EAST GERMAN LEADERSHIP HAD
00:14:39DONE A TELEVISION CONFERENCE AND
00:14:41THERE WAS IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT
00:14:43LIFTING TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS BECAUSE AT THAT TIME, EAST
00:14:47GERMANS WERE LEAVING EAST GERMANY AND GOING TO WARSAW,
00:14:50GOING TO PRAGUE, BECAUSE THAT
00:14:51WOULD BE HAD DEMOCRATIC OR
00:14:55ANYWAY, NOT COMMUNIST GOVERNMENTS ANYMORE. AND THEY WERE LEAVING THE
00:14:59COUNTRY THAT WAY. AND SO IN ORDER TO STOP THAT, THEY ANNOUNCED SOMETHING ABOUT
00:15:03PRESS, YOU KNOW, CHANGE IN TRAVEL. VERY BORING PRESS CONFERENCE.
00:15:06I ONCE SHOWED IT TO A CLASS THAT
00:15:09I WAS TEACHING AND I ASKED THEM, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK
00:15:11HAPPENED AT THE END OF THIS PRESS CONFERENCE? YOU KNOW, IT WAS IT WAS UNCLEAR.
00:15:17BUT AT THE VERY END OF THE PRESS CONFERENCE, ONE OF THE JOURNALISTS SHOUTED OUT, WHAT ABOUT THE WALL?
00:15:20AND THE THE EAST GERMAN
00:15:23BUREAUCRAT THAT DIDN'T ANSWER, BUT FELL.
00:15:27THOUSANDS OF EAST GERMANS WERE WATCHING THIS SHOW AND IT WAS ON TV.
00:15:31AND SO THEY THE PEOPLE LIKE
00:15:33LITERALLY IN THEIR PAJAMAS OR
00:15:35GOT DRESSED AND RAN TO THE WALL. IT WAS IN THE NIGHT AND THEY STARTED HARANGUING THIS BORDER
00:15:39GUARD WHO WAS SAYING THEY'VE JUST SAID ON TV, THE WALL IS UP
00:15:45AND HE HAD NO INSTRUCTIONS.
00:15:47AND HE WAS HE WAS KIND OF ANGRY
00:15:49THAT DAY BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT THERE WAS A LOT OF TURMOIL.
00:15:52AND HE'D HE WAS ANGRY AT HIS BOSS. AND THEY YOU KNOW, HIS SUPERIORS
00:15:56WERE NOT BEING RESPECTFUL TO HIM. AND ANYWAY, AND HE SAID, ALL
00:15:59RIGHT, OKAY. YOU KNOW, ALSO, I SHOULD ALSO
00:16:02SAY HE WAS PROBABLY AFFECTED BY THERE HAD BEEN THERE HAD BEEN IN
00:16:05IRAN WAVES OF PROTEST. I MEAN, THEY DIDN'T END WITH
00:16:09MURDER, BUT THERE HAD BEEN PROTESTS IN BERLIN, IN LEIPZIG, IN DRESDEN, OVER IN.
00:16:13SO HE KNEW THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, THAT THE REGIME WAS LOSING ITS
00:16:17LEGITIMACY. AND HE BASICALLY OPENED THE WALL
00:16:19AND SAID, OKAY, GO THROUGH. AND I THINK WHAT HE THOUGHT
00:16:22WOULD HAPPEN WAS A FEW PEOPLE WOULD GO THROUGH AND THEN HE WOULD SHUT IT AGAIN.
00:16:26AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT
00:16:28THERE WAS A TELEVISION CAMERA.
00:16:30ABC NEWS HAD A CAMERA IN BERLIN.
00:16:34THEY WERE HAD BEEN PLANNING TO BROADCAST IT, NOT KNOWING THAT
00:16:37THERE WOULD ANYTHING WOULD HAPPEN. BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF NEWS IN
00:16:41BERLIN AND ABC NEWS PHOTO FILMED
00:16:45PEOPLE GOING THROUGH THE WALL AND THAT FILM THEN WENT AROUND
00:16:48THE WORLD THEN AND YOU KNOW, AND THEN THERE WAS A KIND OF MOB
00:16:52SCENE, YOU KNOW, THEN, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE CAME TO THE WALL AND THEN IT WAS DE FACTO
00:16:58OPEN. AND SO IT'S ONE OF THOSE STORIES
00:17:00WHERE IT WAS A HUGELY
00:17:04MONUMENTAL, YOU KNOW, EARTH SHATTERING HISTORY MAKING DECISION.
00:17:07BUT ACTUALLY, IT WAS IT MIGHT
00:17:09NOT HAVE HAPPENED. IT WAS A IT WAS A RANDOM
00:17:13DECISION BY A GUY WHO WAS --,
00:17:15YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HE NOBODY HAD BEEN NICE TO HIM THAT DAY. I MEAN, REALLY, IT WAS IT WAS IT
00:17:21WAS NOTHING MORE THAN THAT. I MEAN, AS I SAID, I THINK HE
00:17:23WAS ALSO AFFECTED BY THE BY THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THE REGIME
00:17:26WAS, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST DIDN'T WANT TO SHOOT PEOPLE ANYMORE. YEAH.
00:17:29AND THAT WAS THAT WAS ALSO PART OF I MEAN, THE NEXT THING THAT
00:17:32HAPPENS, WE WE ACTUALLY DROVE TO
00:17:35BERLIN THE FOLLOWING DAY. THAT'S ALSO A LONG STORY.
00:17:39BUT AT THE TIME THERE WERE NO THERE WAS NO IT WAS PETROL
00:17:43SHORTAGES, GAS, GAS SHORTAGES.
00:17:45SO WE HAD TO FILL UP THE CAR WITH THESE KIND OF YOU PUT
00:17:49GASOLINE IN THESE CANISTERS. AND WE DROVE ON WHAT WAS THEN A
00:17:53TWO LANE ROAD OR BERLIN. AND THERE'S NOW, OF COURSE, HUGE
00:17:57IT WAS LIKE A NINE HOUR DRIVE. AND WE GOT TO BERLIN IN THE
00:18:01MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND WE ARRIVED AT CHECKPOINT CHARLIE.
00:18:03WE REMEMBER THIS IS PRE GP'S, SO WE JUST HAD A MAP, WE JUST DROVE
00:18:07STRAIGHT AND WE ARRIVED AT POINT CHARLIE, WHICH IS IN THE MIDDLE
00:18:11OF BERLIN AND, AND THE GUARD SAID, SORRY, I CAN'T LET YOU THROUGH.
00:18:15THIS IS A MILITARY CROSSING. AND WE SAID, YOU KNOW, OH, COME
00:18:19ON, YOU KNOW, THE WALLS OPEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL OVER HIS.
00:18:24HE'S ALL RIGHT. HE LET US THROUGH AND THEN WE
00:18:26DROVE RIGHT UP TO THE BRANDENBURG GATE AND PARKED OUR
00:18:29CAR AND GOT AND THERE WERE STILL THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE IN THIS WAS ABOUT 2:00 IN THE
00:18:34MORNING AND THERE WERE STILL THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE.
00:18:36AND HERE'S THE PIECE OF THAT IS THIS IS GETTING TO YOUR VISAS.
00:18:40SO WHEN WE GOT THERE, THERE WERE
00:18:42LOTS AND LOTS OF FAIRLY DRUNKEN
00:18:45WEST GERMANS SITTING ON THE WALL.
00:18:48YOU SAW THE PICTURES PROBABLY, AND IT WAS A LITTLE BIT AFTER EVERYBODY TO ALREADY SANG THE
00:18:52NATIONAL ANTHEM OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW? AND WHAT DO YOU DO ON THE WALL
00:18:58BETWEEN MIDNIGHT AND DAWN?
00:19:00THERE ISN'T THAT MUCH PEOPLE SORT OF CHIPPING AT IT.
00:19:03AND THEN SOME PEOPLE STARTED JUMPING OFF THE WALL INTO THE NO
00:19:07MAN'S LAND. THERE WAS THERE WERE ACTUALLY
00:19:10TWO WALLS AND THERE WERE GUARDS IN BETWEEN. PEOPLE STARTED TO JUMP OFF THE
00:19:14WALL AND THEN THE GUARDS WERE SORT OF COMMON THROW THEM BACK OVER THE WALL.
00:19:17AND IT WAS KIND OF IT WAS LITTLE UGLY.
00:19:20PEOPLE WERE SORT OF YELLING. IT WASN'T ENTIRELY IN GOOD
00:19:24HUMOR. OKAY. AND THEN THIS ENDED. AND ANYWAY, WE EVENTUALLY LEFT
00:19:28AND WENT TO WALK AROUND THE CITY. EVERYBODY WAS AWAY.
00:19:30BUT A SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THAT,
00:19:34I HAD DINNER WITH GERMAN HISTORIAN WHO HAD BEEN READING
00:19:37THE POLITBURO, THE TRANSCRIPTS
00:19:40OF THE POLITBURO, THE EAST GERMAN POLITBURO, CONVERSATIONS FROM THAT NIGHT.
00:19:44AND HE SAID THEY KNEW THERE WAS
00:19:46THIS KIND OF CHAOS, THE WALL, LOTS OF PEOPLE THERE. AND, YOU KNOW, DISORDER.
00:19:50AND THEY DISCUSSED WHETHER THEY
00:19:54SHOULD PEOPLE BASICALLY WHETHER THEY SHOULD PUT IT TO NOT THEY
00:19:57DECIDED NOT TO. WOW. BUT YOU KNOW, HISTORY IS VERY CONTINGENT.
00:20:01I MEAN, IMAGINE HOW DIFFERENT
00:20:03THAT WHOLE EVENT WOULD HAVE LOOKED.
00:20:07AND HOW DIFFERENTLY WE WOULD REMEMBER IT HAD THEY MADE A DIFFERENT DECISION.
00:20:09YOU KNOW, THERE'S WE LOOK BACK ON HISTORY AND IT SEEMS
00:20:13INEVITABLE. YOU KNOW, OF COURSE IT HAD TO HAPPEN THAT WAY.
00:20:17AND, YOU KNOW, AND THE WAY WE
00:20:19ANALYZE HISTORIES, WE LOOK FOR THE CAUSES. AND YOU CAN FIND THEM.
00:20:23WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF EAST GERMANY, YOU KNOW, THE HISTORY OF WEST GERMANY AND
00:20:27GORBACHEV AND ALSO POLITIQUE AND SO ON. BUT, YOU KNOW, BUT WE WE'RE
00:20:31ALWAYS LOOKING IN RETROSPECT WAS
00:20:33AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, THERE'S TOO MANY PATHS OPEN.
00:20:36AND ACTUALLY, WHEN I WRITE HISTORY, I ALWAYS TRY TO THINK
00:20:41RATHER TRY NOT TO JUDGE PEOPLE IN RETROSPECT. I ALWAYS TRY AND THINK, WHAT DID
00:20:45IT LOOK LIKE AT THE TIME? WHAT KIND OF CHOICES DID PEOPLE HAVE?
00:20:48YOU KNOW, I'VE WRITTEN A LOT OF BOOKS ABOUT DICTATORSHIPS. I MEAN, THE SOVIET AND
00:20:54COMMUNISTS SYSTEMS. AND, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT WHAT
00:20:56DID PEOPLE KNOW THEN? WHAT CHOICES DO THEY HAVE, WHAT
00:21:00COULD THEY DO? YOU KNOW, TRY TO I TRY NOT TO LET MY KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT
00:21:03HAPPENED AFTERWARDS SHAPE MY
00:21:07UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM. BUT ACTUALLY, THIS BERLIN EXPERIENCE IS ONE OF THE THINGS
00:21:11THAT TAUGHT ME THAT BECAUSE IT REALLY IT COULD HAVE GONE A LOT OF OTHER WAYS.
00:21:15BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LUCKY. WOW.
00:21:18THAT STORY WAS SO MUCH BETTER THAN I EXPECTED WHEN I WROTE
00:21:22DOWN BERLIN WALL ON MY NOTES. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING
00:21:26THAT. SO YOU ACTUALLY GET A REALLY INTERESTING SORT OF OVERLAP IN
00:21:29YOUR WORK THAT I THINK IS SO FASCINATING, WHICH IS THE
00:21:32RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JOURNALISM AND HISTORY AND I'M CURIOUS, YOU'VE DONE BOTH.
00:21:37YOU ARE AN AMAZING JOURNALIST IN THAT YOU HAVE THESE UNBELIEVABLE
00:21:40CONVERSATIONS COVERING EVENTS AS THEY'RE HAPPENING IN REAL TIME. BUT THEN YOU ALSO WRITE THESE
00:21:44DEEPLY THOUGHTFUL, DEEPLY RESEARCHED BOOK. SO HOW DO YOU SEE THE
00:21:48RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THOSE DISCIPLINES? HOW DO YOU SEE YOUR WORK KIND OF
00:21:51GOING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THEM?
00:21:53SO YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THE CLICHÉ
00:21:56IS THAT JOURNALISM IS THE FIRST DRAFT OF HISTORY, AND THAT'S TRUE. I MIGHT HAVE SAID THAT YESTERDAY.
00:22:00YOU MIGHT HAVE SAID THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SAID IT.
00:22:04I DON'T KNOW WHO SAID IT FIRST.
00:22:05ACTUALLY, GEORGE WASHINGTON
00:22:09SURE. COULD HAVE GUESSED. IS ANY I MEAN, ACTUALLY, FOR ME, THEY'RE IN MANY WAYS VERY
00:22:13SIMILAR. YOU KNOW, THE YOU KNOW, WHAT IS JOURNALISM?
00:22:16JOURNALISM IS, YOU KNOW, YOU ACQUIRE INFORMATION FROM
00:22:19DIFFERENT SOURCES.
00:22:21YOU KNOW, GOOD JOURNALISM MEAN THERE'S ALSO BAD JOURNALISM.
00:22:25BUT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, YOU YOU ACQUIRE INFORMATION FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.
00:22:28YOU WEIGH WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT IT. AND THEN YOU DESCRIBE AN EVENT,
00:22:32YOU KNOW, BASED ON THE INFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE.
00:22:34AND ACTUALLY HISTORY IS THE
00:22:37SAME, EXCEPT YOU KNOW, YOU ACQUIRE INFORMATION FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.
00:22:40I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WRITE MY BOOKS, I USE ARCHIVES USE
00:22:45SOMETIMES I USE INTERVIEWS. IF I CAN.
00:22:47I USE MEMOIRS.
00:22:49SO I HAVE A WIDE VARIETY OF PEOPLE DESCRIBING THE SAME
00:22:53EVENT. AND THEN I TRY TO RECONSTRUCT THAT EVENT, YOU KNOW, THAT
00:22:57SERIES OF EVENTS BASED ON, YOU KNOW, THESE TRIED TO INCORPORATE
00:23:00THESE DIFFERENT, THESE DIFFERENT VIEWS. YOU KNOW, THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT
00:23:04IN HISTORY, YOU HAVE BETTER SOURCES AND MORE OF THEM. YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE
00:23:08ARCHIVES IN REAL TIME. SOMEDAY WE WILL HAVE THE
00:23:11ARCHIVES OF THE DECISION TO BOMBARD IRAN.
00:23:13YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE THEM NOW, YOU KNOW, AND THEN WE'LL
00:23:17KNOW WHO SAID WHAT TO WHOM AND HOW THE DECISION WAS REALLY TAKEN AND AND SO ON.
00:23:22AND RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE HAVE IS KIND OF PRESS SPECULATION, YOU
00:23:25KNOW, BASED ON EARLY, I DON'T
00:23:27KNOW, THINGS THAT THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TELLING
00:23:31REPORTERS THIS WEEK. AND SO WE CAN WRITE A BETTER
00:23:34STORY, YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS FROM NOW.
00:23:37BUT BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT
00:23:40JOURNALISM HAS FAILED BECAUSE PEOPLE ALSO NEED TO KNOW IN REAL
00:23:44TIME, THEY NEED FIRST GUESS OR
00:23:46AN ESTIMATE OR DRAFT.
00:23:48AND I DON'T THINK IT'S YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT'S WRONG TO, YOU
00:23:52KNOW, WRITE TO THE BEST OF YOUR
00:23:54ABILITY AT A GIVEN MOMENT AND
00:23:56THEN, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY YOU CAN REASSESS IT IF YOU HAVE NEW
00:24:00INFORMATION. WELL, WHAT WITH THE WITH THE,
00:24:03YOU KNOW, FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE'S
00:24:06SIMILAR IN THERE. IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO RECONSTRUCT
00:24:10EVENTS AND EXPLAIN THEM. I MEAN, FOR ME, IT'S IMPORTANT
00:24:14TO TRY TO EXPLAIN THEM TO PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE WILL NEVER BE
00:24:18THERE. I ALSO SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO
00:24:21EXPLAIN THEM TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T EXPERTS.
00:24:24SO MY HISTORY BOOKS ARE ABSOLUTELY WRITTEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A SPECIALIST.
00:24:29SOVIET HISTORY TO READ MY BOOK ABOUT THE GULAG.
00:24:31YOU MIGHT HAVE TO BE INTERESTED IN IT.
00:24:34THAT'S PROBABLY A GOOD START. I MEAN, IF YOU'RE GOING TO PICK UP LIKE A BOOK THAT LONG ABOUT
00:24:38CONCENTRATION CAMPS, LIKE YOU HAVE TO MOTIVATION. YES, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
00:24:41YOU DON'T IT DOESN'T REQUIRE
00:24:43PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING. WELL, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
00:24:47YOUR BOOKS, BUT ONE THREAD THAT
00:24:49YOU SAID THAT I WANT TO PULL ON
00:24:51IS IS THE CONCEPT THAT YOU REVISE AS YOU HAVE MORE
00:24:55INFORMATION. AND I THINK THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF BOTH JOURNALISM HISTORIES THAT WE
00:24:58HAVE TO BE WILLING TO UPDATE OUR STORY ONCE WE HAVE THAT NEW
00:25:01INFORMATION AND THEN ALSO NOT
00:25:04NECESSARILY GET MAD AT PEOPLE IF THEY GOT IT WRONG THE FIRST
00:25:07TIME, IF THEY THEN UPDATE IT ONCE THEY HAVE THE INFORMATION.
00:25:11NO, I MEAN, THAT'S VERY HARD TO DO. I MEAN, THAT THAT PROCESS
00:25:15REQUIRES SOME KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
00:25:19I WANT TO SAY REQUIRES THAT WE
00:25:22STILL HAVE JOURNALIST WHOSE
00:25:24CAREER IS JOURNALISM AND WHO ARE YOU KNOW, WHO HAVE SOME
00:25:28DEDICATION TO THE, YOU KNOW, TO
00:25:31THE RELIABILITY AND CREDIBILITY
00:25:34OF THEIR PUBLICATIONS AND WHO THEY, YOU KNOW, WHO WHO CAN
00:25:38WRITE SOMETHING ONE DAY, AN UPDATE OF THE NEXT.
00:25:40YOU KNOW, ONE OF MY CONCERNS NOW
00:25:42IS BECAUSE THE BUSINESS MODEL OF
00:25:45JOURNALISM HAS DISAPPEARED. I MEAN, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
00:25:48TRYING TO REINVENT WORK FOR THE ATLANTIC, WHICH I THINK HAS
00:25:51RECREATED ITSELF AS A SUBSCRIPTION BASED PUBLICATION.
00:25:55AND HAS BEEN VERY IT'S DONE VERY
00:25:57WELL, BUT QUITE A LOT OF NEWSPAPERS HAVE SURVIVED. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'M
00:26:01WORRIED ABOUT IS IF, YOU KNOW, PARTICULARLY WITH THE WAY I
00:26:06WORKS AND THE WAY PEOPLE HAVE BECOME COMFORTABLE ASKING
00:26:09QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, OUT OF THE IRAN WAR START, I MEAN, RIGHT
00:26:13NOW, I GUESS IT'S INFORMATION
00:26:15FROM JOURNALISM, BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE'S NO
00:26:19JOURNALISM OR NOT VERY MUCH OR IT'S VERY BIASED.
00:26:23AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ROLE OF JOURNALISM IN A DEMOCRACY.
00:26:26BUT I REALIZED I FORGOT TO TELL YOU GUYS TO PUT YOUR QUESTIONS IN TO THE QR CODE SYSTEM.
00:26:29I AM GOING TO INCORPORATE THEM. SO PLEASE, AS JUST AS A
00:26:33REMINDER, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DO SO. SO I CAN BE SURE TO INCLUDE YOUR
00:26:37VOICES. SO THE AND GOOD JOURNALISM IS
00:26:40REALLY EXPENSIVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY PAY PEOPLE TO,
00:26:43TO SPEND TIME DOING THE THINGS THAT TAKE TAKE TIME AND TAKE
00:26:47EFFORT AND TAKE RESOURCES. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ROLE OF
00:26:50JOURNALISM IN A DEMOCRACY SHOULD BE?
00:26:52AND AS THE BUSINESS MODEL IS
00:26:56CHANGING, HOW CAN WE SUPPORT THAT ESSENTIAL ROLE?
00:27:00WELL, THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS. I MEAN, AS TO THE BUSINESS
00:27:04MODEL, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CARE
00:27:06ABOUT INFORMATION, YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT.
00:27:08YOU KNOW, SUBSCRIBE SUBSCRIBED TO A FEW THINGS, STARTING WITH
00:27:12THE ATLANTIC, STARTING THE
00:27:14COLOR, SUBSCRIBE TO A FEW
00:27:18THINGS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, AND OF
00:27:19COURSE, THE AND THE DANGER IS
00:27:23THAT MANY PEOPLE DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO ANYTHING.
00:27:24AND SO THEY GET LESS QUALITY JOURNALISM.
00:27:27IT'S FREE.
00:27:31YOU KNOW, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT MODELS.
00:27:33SO THE YOU KNOW, THE THERE'S THERE ARE A GROUP OF NEWSPAPERS
00:27:37THAT ARE EMERGING AS HAVING ENOUGH SUBSCRIPTIONS TO SURVIVE.
00:27:40THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, THE ATLANTIC, THE NEW YORKER.
00:27:43BUT IT WASN'T ENOUGH FOR THE WASHINGTON POST, FOR EXAMPLE,
00:27:47ALTHOUGH THEY HAD OTHER PROBLEMS.
00:27:50I USED TO I WROTE FOR THE WASHINGTON POST FOR YEARS, AND
00:27:53I'M REALLY DEVASTATED BY WHAT'S
00:27:54HAPPENED TO THERE MAY ALSO BE
00:27:58FORMS OF COMMUNITY BASED JOURNALISM.
00:28:02THERE REALLY INTERESTING LOCAL PAPERS.
00:28:04THERE'S ONE IN MISSISSIPPI, THERE'S ONE IN ALABAMA THAT HAVE
00:28:08THAT WORK ON SOME. SOME OF THEM USE PHILANTHROPY.
00:28:12SOME OF THEM ARE HAVE THEIR THEIR INCOME FROM, YOU KNOW,
00:28:16LOCAL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE AN INTEREST IN SUPPORTING GOOD
00:28:20LOCAL INFORMATION. AND SO THERE ARE THERE YOU CAN
00:28:24SEE AROUND THE COUNTRY, THERE ARE FEW LOCAL NEWS PROJECTS THAT
00:28:26HAVE BEGUN TO REVIVE DO WELL. I MEAN, THEY DON'T THE SORT OF
00:28:29OLD CORPORATE MODEL OF, YOU
00:28:32KNOW, CLICKBAIT ADVERTISING
00:28:34TURNS OUT TO BE NOT SUFFICIENT. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO SUPPORT A
00:28:38NEWSPAPER, BUT SOME SOME WHO HAVE FOUND, AS I SAID, LOCAL
00:28:42COMPANIES, BUSINESSES, PHILANTHROPIES TO SUPPORT THE
00:28:45WELL MIGHT ALSO SURVIVE. YEAH.
00:28:47AND SO, I MEAN, WHAT'S REALLY
00:28:49IMPORTANT FOR THE DEMOCRACY, I
00:28:51MEAN, DEMOCRACY EMERGES IN THE,
00:28:53YOU KNOW, 17 18TH CENTURY AS A
00:28:57AS A BYPRODUCT OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND OF THE IDEA
00:29:00THAT WE CAN CREATE A MORE
00:29:04RATIONAL FORM OF GOVERNMENT. I KNOW THAT WE'RE, YOU KNOW,
00:29:07MONARCHS, MONARCH MONARCHY WAS AN INHERITED SYSTEM.
00:29:11AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS BASED ON TRADITION.
00:29:14AND BUT IT WASN'T NECESSARILY
00:29:16THE MOST INTELLIGENT OR RATIONAL WAY TO RUN A COUNTRY.
00:29:19AND SO THE IDEA OF NOT JUST IN
00:29:22THE UNITED STATES, BUT IN OTHER PLACES WAS CAN'T WE BUILD
00:29:25SOMETHING THAT'S MORE RATIONAL? BUT FOR IN ORDER TO BUILD
00:29:28SOMETHING MORE RATIONAL, IT HAS
00:29:30TO BE BUILT ON AN ACCURATE OR
00:29:34ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE VIEW OF THE WORLD.
00:29:36AND AND THE FUNDAMENTAL IDEA OF DEMOCRACY ALSO IS THAT WE IN THE
00:29:42THEORY, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL
00:29:45PARTIES AND GROUPS COMPETE OVER
00:29:47DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT HOW THE
00:29:49COUNTRY SHOULD BE RUN.
00:29:51BUT AGAIN, THE QUALITY OF THOSE IDEAS, THE QUALITY OF DEBATE IS
00:29:55ALSO GOING TO ON HOW MUCH IT'S RELATED TO REALITY.
00:29:59YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IF WE'RE GOING
00:30:02TO DEBATE, IS IT A GOOD IDEA TO BUILD THIS BRIDGE IN OUR TOWN?
00:30:07WE NEED TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH TRAFFIC THERE WOULD BE OVER
00:30:11THE BRIDGE. WE NEED IDEA OF WHETHER THE YOU
00:30:14KNOW, THE SOIL IN THIS PART IN THIS PART OF THE RIVERBANK IS
00:30:17STRONG ENOUGH TO SUPPORT A BRIDGE. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A WE NEED TO
00:30:20HAVE ACTUAL INFORMATION. WE NEED SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION.
00:30:24WE NEED SOME GOOD IDEA. LOOK, OPINION. DO PEOPLE WANT THIS BRIDGE AND
00:30:28ANY DECISION MADE IN A DEMOCRACY, IF YOU HAVE A WILL,
00:30:32DEMOCRACY IS MADE IN THAT WAY. AND I AM.
00:30:36I DO FEAR THAT AS WE WE HAVE
00:30:39WE'RE NOW LIVING IN AN ERA WHEN
00:30:41LOTS OF INSTITUTIONS ARE UNDER
00:30:43FIRE, HAVE BEEN UNDERMINED AT
00:30:46SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTIONS, YOU
00:30:48KNOW, UNIVERSITIES, JOURNALS,
00:30:51SOME OTHER SOURCES OF AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOBODY HAS
00:30:55PERFECT INFORMATION AND EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES.
00:30:57BUT THERE ARE, AS WE WERE SAYING EARLIER, THERE ARE STILL BETTER
00:31:01AND WORSE INSTITUTIONS THAT SEEK TO CORRECT MISTAKES. YOU KNOW, IF YOU'VE MADE A
00:31:05MISTAKE ABOUT THE ENGINEERING OF THE BRIDGE AND YOU KNOW IT, THEN
00:31:09YOU TRY TO FIX IT. BUT IF YOU IF YOU KNOW, IF YOU
00:31:12DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT GOOD INFORMATION TO BEGIN WITH OR AN
00:31:15INSTITUTION THAT CAN TELL YOU SOMETHING RELIABLE ABOUT HOW TO
00:31:19BUILD THE BRIDGE, THEN YOU KNOW
00:31:21THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T YOU CAN'T RELIABLY BUILD IT.
00:31:23AND SO IT IS A IT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO THE IDEA OF RATIONAL
00:31:28GOVERNMENT. NOT THAT OUR COUNTRY HAS ALWAYS BEEN RATIONAL AND SO ON.
00:31:31BUT BUT BUT YOU KNOW, IN THE,
00:31:33YOU KNOW, THE THE THE THE IDEAL
00:31:37TOWARDS WHICH WE STRIVE IS A RUN
00:31:40COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, WITH AND
00:31:42WITHOUT GOOD SOURCES OF
00:31:44INFORMATION OF ALL KINDS, IT'S
00:31:47HARDER TO GET TO THAT. ONE OF THE ELEMENTS THAT HAS
00:31:50HELPED BRING US BACK WHEN WE HAVE BEEN AT TIMES LESS RATIONAL
00:31:54IS THAT WE HAVE A LONG TRADITION OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM IN A
00:31:57COUNTRY KIND OF. A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT THE START OF IT AS SORT OF THE MUCKRAKER
00:32:01GENERATION AND THE PROGRESSIVE ERA, ALTHOUGH I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT GOES BACK FARTHER.
00:32:05AND MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO MADE A TREMENDOUS DIFFERENCE
00:32:08WERE WOMEN HAD TO BE WELLS TARBELL. THEY BROKE STORIES THAT LED TO
00:32:13EXTRAORDINARY REFORM AND CHANGE. DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S
00:32:16SOMETHING ABOUT EITHER WHEN
00:32:18WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AUTOCRACIES OR EVEN IN IN THE UNITED STATES
00:32:22STORY, IS THERE SOMETHING DISTINCTIVE ABOUT WOMEN JOURNALISTS THAT ARE ABLE TO
00:32:24BREAK THESE STORIES.
00:32:27I MEAN, I'VE ALWAYS RESISTED THE
00:32:30IDEA THAT YOU KNOW, THERE WAS
00:32:32SOMETHING ABOUT LIKE WOMEN'S JOURNALISM IN JOURNALISM BECAUSE
00:32:36I THINK I'M JUST A JOURNALIST. I MEAN, THERE MAY BE, YOU KNOW,
00:32:40WHAT COMPELS PEOPLE TO WANT TO
00:32:42BECAUSE INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM
00:32:45IN PARTICULAR REQUIRES HUGE
00:32:47AMOUNTS OF PATIENCE, TIME, TIME. IT REQUIRES SOME KIND OF
00:32:51MOTIVATION THAT WILL PAID, YOU
00:32:55KNOW. AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT MAY BE THAT
00:32:58SOME OF THAT MOTIVATION AND THAT DESIRE TO TELL THE TRUTH, TO
00:33:02EXPLAIN HOW THINGS REALLY WORK, YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN PARTICULAR MOMENTS IN HISTORY
00:33:06WHEN WOMEN HAVE FELT THAT VERY STRONGLY.
00:33:08SO MAYBE OTHER MEN, MEN DO AS
00:33:11WELL AS YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT AS
00:33:13A JOURNALIST, HAVE MOST OF THE
00:33:16AUTHORITARIAN FIGURES YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT ARE MEN. MAYBE ALL OF THEM ARE MEN.
00:33:20WERE THERE ANY WOMEN? WAS THERE ANY WE COULD STOP AND
00:33:24CHUCKLE ABOUT THAT FOR A SECOND.
00:33:25BUT WAS THERE ANYTHING WAS THAT EASIER FOR YOU? IS IT HARDER FOR YOU OR DID IT
00:33:30REALLY NOT MATTER BECAUSE YOU WERE JUST A JOURNALIST AND YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT THEM REGARDLESS?
00:33:33OH, YOU MEAN PEOPLE? YEAH, I.
00:33:36I MEAN, IT DIDN'T MATTER TO ME.
00:33:38IT MAY HAVE MATTERED TO THEM. SO PARTICULARLY WHEN I WAS
00:33:43YOUNGER, I ACTUALLY THINK IT WAS ADVANTAGEOUS TO BE FEMALE
00:33:48BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I WAS A 25
00:33:50YEAR OLD ECONOMIST CORRESPONDENT IN WARSAW.
00:33:52AND I, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE. YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF
00:33:56MEMORABLE BECAUSE THERE WEREN'T ANY WOMEN DOING WHAT I WAS DOING.
00:34:00NOT MY AGE ANYWAY. AND SO I THINK IT WAS IT WAS IT WAS USEFUL.
00:34:04I MEAN, I'M NOT SURE THAT I MUCH
00:34:08EVEN KNOW HOW TO BALANCE WHETHER IT WAS GOOD OR BAD.
00:34:11IF I LOOK BACK, I MEAN, I'M SURE THERE ARE ALSO THINGS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T WANT TO
00:34:15TALK TO ME AND THERE WERE DINNERS.
00:34:17I WASN'T AN BUT I'M NOT I'M NOT
00:34:20SURE HOW, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE
00:34:22DINNERS BECAUSE I WASN'T INVITED TO.
00:34:24I DON'T. WELL, YOU REALLY DON'T.
00:34:28JUST FINE EVEN WITHOUT THE DINNERS. SO IT WAS THERE PART.
00:34:31IT'S HARD FOR ME TO MAKE A JUDGE BECAUSE JUDGMENT BECAUSE THERE ARE THERE ARE SOMETIMES
00:34:36ADVANTAGES. I MEAN, I WORKED ACTUALLY LAST
00:34:38YEAR WITH A PHOTOGRAPHER CALLED
00:34:41LYNSEY ADDARIO. WE WENT TO SUDAN TOGETHER AND
00:34:46LINDSEY IS IS ONE OF THE GREAT, YOU KNOW, WORLD FAMOUS WAR
00:34:50PHOTOGRAPHERS AND SHE IS SHE IS.
00:34:53AND IT'S VERY UNUSUAL IN THAT WORLD, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, SHE'S A
00:34:56WAR PHOTOGRAPHER. SHE GOES INTO CONFLICTS AND, YOU
00:35:01KNOW, SHE'S SHE WOULD ALSO SAY THINGS OR SOME VERSION OF WHAT I JUST SAID THAT SOMETIMES IT'S
00:35:05USEFUL AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT. SHE DECIDED AT SOME POINT TO
00:35:08TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. AND SHE SHE HAS MADE A SPECIALTY
00:35:11OF ESPECIALLY IN WAR TORN COUNTRIES AND ESPECIALLY IN THE
00:35:15MIDDLE EAST, WHERE MEN REALLY HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE WOMEN, YOU
00:35:20KNOW. SO SHE WAS SHE MADE A KIND OF
00:35:22SPECIALTY OF PHOTO GRAFTING AND
00:35:26INTERVIEWING WOMEN VICTIMS OF CONFLICT, WOMEN WHO WERE
00:35:29WATCHING THE WAR. YOU KNOW, SHE HAD ANOTHER WAY OF
00:35:32TELLING, ESPECIALLY WARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT HER MALE
00:35:36COLLEAGUES COULDN'T DO. AND SOME OF HER MOST MEMORABLE PHOTOGRAPHS ARE PHOTOGRAPHS OF
00:35:41WOMEN. AND SO SHE SHE SORT OF DECIDED
00:35:43TO USE IT AS AN ASSET BECAUSE, AS I SAID, SHE WAS SHE WAS
00:35:47ALLOWED INTO ROOMS AND WERE ALLOWED INTO.
00:35:49AND SO, YOU KNOW, AND THEN I'M SURE SHE ALSO MISSED SOME
00:35:53REPORTING OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE,
00:35:55YOU KNOW, THERE WASN'T AN ASSET. I MEAN, IT BECAME SHE'S SHE'S
00:35:59THERE'S A FILM THAT SHE'S DOCUMENTARIES HAS BEEN MADE
00:36:02ABOUT HER AND OF COURSE SHE HAS
00:36:05CHILDREN AND THERE WERE, YOU
00:36:07KNOW, MALE EDITORS WHO DIDN'T WANT TO SEND HER SOMEWHERE
00:36:10BECAUSE WE'RE NOT SENDING YOU OF YOUR CHILDREN.
00:36:12BUT BUT SHE, SHE, SHE, YOU KNOW,
00:36:16SHE CONTINUED ANYWAY, I MEAN, SHE'S WON EVERY SINGLE
00:36:18CONCEIVABLE JOURNALISM PRIZE
00:36:20AND, YOU KNOW, CONTINUES TO WIN THEM. SO IT'S REMARKABLE.
00:36:24AGAIN, IT'S HARD FOR ME, IT'S PROBABLY AS AS HARD FOR HER AS IT IS FOR ME TO BALANCE IT OUT.
00:36:28I MEAN, SOMETIMES IT'S USEFUL AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT. SO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE
00:36:32IMPORTANCE OF GOOD INFORMATION IN A DEMOCRACY AND YOU HAVE RUN
00:36:36CENTERS ON DISINFORMATION, PROPAGANDA.
00:36:39AND AS A HISTORIAN, I OFTEN
00:36:41THINK ABOUT HOW THE SOURCES THAT WE USE ARE GOING TO BE SHIFTING IN A REALLY DRAMATIC WAY, WHICH
00:36:45IT WON'T MEAN THAT WE CAN'T DO IT. IT'S JUST GOING TO IT'S GOING TO SHIFT.
00:36:49SO WHEN YOU WROTE THE GULAG, YOU THE RUSSIAN ARCHIVES HAD JUST
00:36:52OPENED AND SO THERE WAS THIS WHOLE TROVE OF INFORMATION THAT
00:36:56PEOPLE, I THINK, HAD SPECULATED ABOUT. BUT YOU FINALLY HAD INFORMATION
00:36:58IN A REAL AND DIFFERENT WAY.
00:37:01HOW DO YOU THINK THAT YOU KNOW, AS WE'RE THINKING ABOUT IRAN, AS
00:37:04WE'RE THINKING ABOUT RUSSIA, AS WE'RE THINKING ABOUT OTHER
00:37:07DICTATORS AROUND THE GLOBE, HOW IS OUR INFORMATION LANDSCAPE
00:37:10GOING TO CHANGE WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE TO WRITE ABOUT THOSE STORIES?
00:37:14I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'LL HAVE A
00:37:19WHOLE NEW KIND OF ARCHIVE.
00:37:20WE'LL HAVE EMAIL ARCHIVES, WE'LL
00:37:25HAVE, YOU KNOW, SO MUCH MORE NOW
00:37:27IS WRITTEN DOWN THAN WAS. I MEAN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW RIGHT.
00:37:31IF YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT THE 18TH CENTURY, YOU HAVE PEOPLE'S LETTERS. RIGHT.
00:37:34BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THE BACK AND
00:37:36FORTH CONVERSATION THEY HAVE
00:37:38ABOUT, WELL, WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT TO MEET? 2:00.
00:37:42NO, 4:00. AND BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THAT. BUT I MEAN, YOU ALSO DON'T HAVE
00:37:46THE BANTER THAT PEOPLE HAVE BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, SO I WAS JUST
00:37:50THINKING ABOUT THIS RECENTLY. I MEAN, WHEN WHEN PEOPLE WRITE
00:37:53BIOGRAPHIES, I WAS READING THE THERE'S A NEW BIOGRAPHY OF
00:37:58SCHUYLER SISTERS. IT'S ALL YOU HAD IN THE MOM.
00:38:00AND IT'S IT'S WELL DONE IN SOME
00:38:02WAYS BECAUSE THEY WROTE A LOT OF LETTERS. SO THERE'S A LOT.
00:38:06BUT REALLY WHAT'S MISSING FROM
00:38:08IT IS, YOU KNOW WHAT WAS REALLY THEIR RELATIONSHIP LIKE WHEN
00:38:11THEY WERE TOGETHER? YOU KNOW, HOW DID THEY CHAT? YOU KNOW WHAT WAS LIZ'S
00:38:16RELATIONSHIP TO HAMILTON? I MEAN, YOU CAN'T YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT.
00:38:19BUT ACTUALLY FROM EMAIL ARCHIVES, YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TELL, I DON'T KNOW.
00:38:23OH, THAT'S SO THAT'S A VERY POSITIVE TAKE. OKAY. SO POSITIVE TAKE.
00:38:26LOVE THAT THERE WILL BE, YOU
00:38:29KNOW, THEY'LL I DON'T KNOW IT DEPENDS WHAT ALSO DEPENDS
00:38:33THERE'S THERE'S AN ISSUE OF HOW
00:38:35MUCH WILL REMAIN. YOU KNOW WILL WE PRESERVE EMAIL.
00:38:39I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN YOU'RE AN ARCHIVIST.
00:38:43YOU MIGHT HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF IT. YEAH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT EMAIL.
00:38:46I, I DO WORRY ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, I WORRY A LOT ABOUT
00:38:50BECAUSE INTERNET SYSTEMS ARE CHANGING SO QUICKLY AND THEY ARE
00:38:53BECOMING ANTIQUATED SO QUICKLY
00:38:55THAT WILL WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO READ THE EMAILS THAT WE WROTE
00:38:59IN THE 90S IN 2050? AND I DON'T KNOW A GOOD
00:39:03QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW WHEN I'M TALKING TO
00:39:07SOMEONE ABOUT THIS ONCE BEFORE, THERE ARE SOME I KNOW THERE'S SOME ARCHIVES THAT ARE
00:39:11PRESERVING OLDER FORMS OF
00:39:13ELECTRONIC INFORMATION AND PRESERVING THE MACHINES THAT
00:39:17USED THEM. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
00:39:19MICROFICHE, YOU KNOW, OF, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF A LOT OF LOT OF
00:39:23MATERIAL IS PRESERVED IN WAYS THAT I KNOW PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO
00:39:27DIGITIZE THINGS NOW. YEAH. WELL, IDEALLY, IF IF THERE'S ANYONE THAT'S A TECHNOLOGY
00:39:31PERSON OUT THERE, IF YOU COULD COME UP WITH A FORM OF READING THINGS THAT'S LESS OR LESS FORM
00:39:35OF TORTURE THAN MICROFILM, HISTORIANS WOULD REALLY
00:39:38APPRECIATE IT BECAUSE IT'S TERRIBLE. I'VE DONE IT.
00:39:42OH, IT'S HORRIBLE. IT'S A DESIGN FOR MIGRAINE. OKAY.
00:39:46SO I WANT TO KIND OF IN OUR FINAL MINUTES HERE, TALK ABOUT,
00:39:49YOU KNOW, WHERE WE ARE WITH THIS 250TH LEGACY AND WE HAVE THIS
00:39:52BIG ANNIVERSARY AND IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO RETHINK THINGS.
00:39:55AND ONE OF THE ONE OF THE
00:39:57ARGUMENTS OF YOUR RECENT BOOK, AUTOCRACY INC, THAT YOU
00:40:00MENTIONED IS THAT AUTOCRACIES, THEY WORK TOGETHER. THEY THEY FEED EACH OTHER.
00:40:04THEY SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER. BUT THE INVERSE OF THAT IS TRUE,
00:40:07THAT DEMOCRACY IS ALSO CONTAGIOUS.
00:40:09AND CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY WHY IS IT IMPORTANT
00:40:13FOR DEMOCRACIES TO SUPPORT OTHER DEMOCRACIES?
00:40:15I MEAN, SO OUR DEMOCRACY WAS
00:40:19EMBEDDED IN A SET OF INTERNATIONAL ARGUMENTS AND
00:40:23DEBATES FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. YOU KNOW, OUR FOUNDERS WERE
00:40:28INFLUENCED BY FRENCH WRITERS,
00:40:30BRITISH WRITERS, YOU KNOW, AND
00:40:32THEN OUR REVOLUTION, IN TURN,
00:40:36INFLUENCED OTHER REVOLUTIONS. I WROTE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS
00:40:39LAST SUMMER, ACTUALLY. THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, THE
00:40:43HAITIAN REVOLUTION THAT FOLLOWED HOURS USE SOME OF THE LANGUAGE
00:40:46FROM THE I THINK IT'S FROM THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
00:40:51OH, YOU KNOW, OUR DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, WHEN IT WAS
00:40:54PUBLISHED WAS THEN REPUBLIC ISSUED IN DOZENS OF LANGUAGES AND DANISH.
00:40:58AND, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST IN BRITAIN BUT ELSEWHERE.
00:41:01AND IT BEGAN IT IMMEDIATELY, AS SOON AS IT WAS PUBLISHED, BEGAN TO SHAPE PUBLIC DEBATES IN OTHER
00:41:06PLACES AS WELL. AND, YOU KNOW, THE THE STRENGTH
00:41:09OF OUR DEMOCRACY WAS ALSO IN ITS
00:41:13LINKS TO OTHER DEMOCRACIES. I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK
00:41:15AT AND IT MATTERED, A LOT OF OUR
00:41:18ALLIES WERE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE ABOLITIONIST
00:41:21MOVEMENT, IT HAD VERY DEEP IN
00:41:24THIS COUNTRY DEEP LINKS TO THE TO THE KIND OF BRITISH
00:41:28COUNTERPARTS. YOU KNOW, FREDERICK DOUGLASS LIVED FOR SOME YEARS IN THE U.K.
00:41:31A LOT OF OTHER BLACK AMERICANS WHO FEEL UNSAFE HERE, EVEN IF
00:41:35THEY WERE FREE OR EVEN FELT UNSAFE IN CANADA, LIVED THERE.
00:41:39THERE WERE ENGLISH BRITISH ABOLITIONISTS WHO CAME HERE TO
00:41:42LECTURE AND SPEAK. I MEAN, THERE WAS THERE WAS A
00:41:45YOU KNOW, THE THE FACT THAT WE WERE ALLIED WITH WE WERE WE WERE
00:41:48WE WERE IN A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.
00:41:52WHICH HAD ALREADY MET SLAVERY, MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE HERE.
00:41:57YOU KNOW, SO THE THE LINKS THAT
00:41:59WE HAVE TO OTHER YOU KNOW, OTHER
00:42:01DEMOCRACIES HAVE SOMETIMES HELPED TO STRENGTHEN OURS.
00:42:05AND WE'VE TIMES HELPED THAN
00:42:07THERE'S I MEAN I ACTUALLY THINK
00:42:10NOW I WOULDN'T I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS UNTIL RECENTLY.
00:42:13I MEAN I NOW THINK THAT THE POST
00:42:17WAR ROLE OF AMERICA IN EUROPE,
00:42:21THE WHICH WE SAW FOR MANY YEARS,
00:42:23I THINK IS US DOING THEM A FAVOR.
00:42:25WE WERE, YOU KNOW, WE WERE DEFENDING EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY.
00:42:29WE HAD AMERICAN TROOPS IN EUROPE. WE HAD NUCLEAR UMBRELLA OVER
00:42:33EUROPE, I THINK ALSO PLAYED A REALLY IMPORTANT ROLE IN
00:42:37ANCHORING OUR DEMOCRACY BECAUSE
00:42:41BECAUSE IT PUT THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY AT THE CENTER OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.
00:42:46YOU KNOW? AND SO IT WAS PART LIKE, WHO ARE WE IN THE WORLD?
00:42:48HOW DO WE DEFINE OURSELVES? WHAT ARE WE?
00:42:52AND THE THAT THAT WAS, YOU KNOW,
00:42:54IMPORTANT IN MAINTAINING OUR DEMOCRACY AT A TIME WHEN THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, POTENTIAL FOR
00:43:00DIVISION. IT WAS AN IMPORTANT REASON WHY THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS
00:43:04SUCCESSFUL. THOSE OF YOU WHO KNOW THE
00:43:06HISTORY KNOW THAT EVEN THE THE
00:43:11THE YOU KNOW, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AT THE TIME OF THE
00:43:13SEGREGATION ARGUMENTS ABOUT
00:43:15SEGREGATED SCHOOLS MADE A AN AMICUS BRIEF TO THE SUPREME
00:43:20COURT IN WHICH THEY SPECIFICALLY CITED. NOW, I DON'T REMEMBER THE
00:43:24LANGUAGE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT I'VE I'VE USED IT IN THE PAST.
00:43:27AND THEY THEY CITE THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE US NEEDS TO,
00:43:31YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS LANGUAGE ABOUT ALL PEOPLE BEING CREATED EQUAL.
00:43:35WE NEED TO TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY BECAUSE OF OUR ROLE IN THE WORLD.
00:43:39SOMETHING LIKE. AND SO IT WAS A IT WAS KIND OF
00:43:41UNDERSTANDING THIS IS WHO WE ARE, THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR.
00:43:45I THINK IT HELPED US.
00:43:47IT HELPED YOU KNOW, IT HELPED
00:43:51BUILD, YOU KNOW, SORT OF GREATER
00:43:53UNITY IN THE UNITED STATES AND A KIND OF CONSOLIDATED VIEW OF WHO
00:43:57WE WERE IN A WAY THAT WE DIDN'T
00:43:59REALLY ACKNOWLEDGE. AND IT'S I MEAN, IT'S I KNOW
00:44:03IT'S A YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE OF MY
00:44:07CONCERNS IS WITH BREAKUP OF THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE AND THAT
00:44:13WE WHICH WHICH IS WHICH IS HAPPENING. I MEAN IT'S A IT'S IT'S NOT A
00:44:17IT'S NOT BE A SUDDEN BREAK HAS BEEN A THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF
00:44:20CHANGES, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS WITH THAT, YOU KNOW,
00:44:24WE WILL LOSE THAT ANCHORING OF
00:44:26OUR FOREIGN POLICY AND OUR SENSE OF WHO WE ARE ALSO YOU KNOW, WHO
00:44:30WERE WE? WE WERE THE LEADER OF THE DEMOCRACIES, NOT JUST IN EUROPE,
00:44:34OF COURSE, ALSO IN ASIA AND ELSEWHERE.
00:44:36BUT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF WHO OR WHAT WAS OUR
00:44:40SELF-DEFINITION. AND I WORRY THAT COULD GET LOST. THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT I
00:44:44HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT FROM FROM THAT ANGLE.
00:44:45I'M SO GLAD YOU INTRODUCED THAT.
00:44:48SO IS THIS DO ARE YOU SEEN THIS
00:44:52YEAR AS AN OPPORTUNITY WITH HOPEFULLY MORE ATTENTION ON THE
00:44:55ANNIVERSARY TO KIND OF THINK ABOUT WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE
00:44:58THAT IDENTITY AS THE LEADER OF DEMOCRACY? I THINK IT'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY AND YOU KNOW WHAT I'M HOPING FOR
00:45:02THIS YEAR IS THAT THERE WILL BE
00:45:05MANY COMPETING CELEBRATIONS.
00:45:07YOU KNOW, THERE WILL NOT JUST
00:45:09BE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE OFFICIAL CELEBRATION TURNS OUT
00:45:12TO BE, THERE WILL BE ALL THE INSTITUTIONS LIKE THIS ONE.
00:45:16I'M SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO OTHER KINDS OF
00:45:19INSTITUTIONS CONNECTED TO AMERICAN HISTORY WHO WILL, YOU
00:45:23KNOW, USE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CELEBRATE WHAT THEY DO AND AND
00:45:27INTERPRET LEGACY AS THEY SEE IT.
00:45:30I MEAN, WE'RE YOU KNOW, WE ARE, YOU KNOW, DESPITE SOME VOICES,
00:45:35CONTRARY, WE ARE A VERY BROAD
00:45:38WITH MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, OF DIFFERENT
00:45:42RELIGIONS, DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.
00:45:44PEOPLE REMEMBER AND UNDERSTAND,
00:45:47YOU KNOW, THE LEGACY OF THE OF THE FOUNDING IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
00:45:50AND THEY SHOULD ALL BE HEARD. I LOVE THAT.
00:45:53WELL, WE WE WILL BE SHARING A LOT OF THOSE VOICES. WE HOPE YOU WILL BE JOINING US
00:45:57FOR SOME OF THOSE CELEBRATIONS. YOU ARE, OF COURSE, WELCOME BACK TO ANY AND ALL OF THEM.
00:46:01SO JUST A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS HERE.
00:46:04SO THERE'S ONE VERY TANGIBLE ONE FROM MARY SLIM, WHICH I THINK IS
00:46:07A REALLY GOOD ONE, WHICH IS WHICH JOURNALISTS ARE YOU
00:46:11LISTENING TO REGARDING IRAN AND THE CONFLICT IN IRAN AND IN
00:46:15UKRAINE? WOW.
00:46:16I JUST GREAT, GREAT.
00:46:19IT'S A VERSION OF WHO SHOULD WE BE FOLLOWING TO UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND?
00:46:23I MEAN, IT DEPENDS WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW.
00:46:25AND SO I SO I, I FOLLOW THE
00:46:29ATLANTIC IS ACTUALLY JUST EMPLOYED ONE OF THE GREAT IRAN
00:46:32EXPERTS IN WASHINGTON IS CALLED KARIM SADJADPOUR AND HE'S HE'S
00:46:36HE'S BEEN A HE'S BEEN OFTEN AT THINK TANKS BUT HE'S NOW WRITING
00:46:39I THINK MAINLY FOR US.
00:46:41YOU KNOW I TRUST HIS JUDGMENT. I KNOW THAT HE KNOWS A WIDE
00:46:44RANGE OF PEOPLE INSIDE AND I TRUST HIM. I MEAN, I HAVE SORT OF SOME VERY
00:46:48SPECIFIC PEOPLE WHO I KNOW WHO
00:46:50AREN'T NECESSARILY WRITING WHO I
00:46:53WELL, WHO I TALK TO.
00:46:56I MEAN, FOR.
00:46:59YOU KNOW, FOR THE MILITARY COVERAGE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU
00:47:03KNOW, YOU'LL YOU'LL NEED TO LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE
00:47:07NEWSPAPERS THAT HAVE THE WIDEST RANGE OF REPORTERS AND AND
00:47:11ACCESS TO INFORMATION OR PROBABLY THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE
00:47:13WALL STREET JOURNAL FOR OR AND
00:47:18THE WALL STREET JOURNAL'S DOING AMAZING REPORTING ON THEY IT'S
00:47:20REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DISTINGUISH BETWEEN OPINION
00:47:23PAGES THAT PAPERS AND REPORTING BECAUSE THEY'RE OFTEN VERY
00:47:27DIFFERENT PEOPLE THEY PUT A LOT OF MONEY INTO REPORTING IT'S INTERESTING ALSO THE WALL STREET
00:47:31JOURNAL BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH
00:47:32AN IMPORTANT BUSINESS COMMUNITY READERSHIP.
00:47:35YOU KNOW, THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS ALSO A COMMUNITY THAT NEEDS
00:47:39GOOD INFORMATION AND CARES A LOT
00:47:41ABOUT WHAT'S TRUE AND WHAT'S NOT TRUE.
00:47:44AND SO THE WALL STREET JOURNAL,
00:47:47AS A AS PART OF ITS, YOU KNOW, BUSINESS MODEL, NEEDS TO, YOU
00:47:51KNOW, NEEDS TO PRESENT ITS
00:47:53READERS WITH RELIABLE INFORMATION BECAUSE THEY'RE
00:47:56GOING TO MAKE YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT DECISIONS ON THE BASIS OF THAT.
00:48:00AND SO, I MEAN, THAT'S NOT THE ONLY THERE ARE VERY GOOD REPORTERS THERE RIGHT NOW.
00:48:04YEAH. FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE IN THE
00:48:08AUDIENCE OR YOUNGER PEOPLE WHO MEAN WELL, LET ME SAY ONE OTHER THING, ACTUALLY, FOR BOTH IRAN
00:48:11AND UKRAINE, THIS IS VERY
00:48:13SPECIFIC, BUT THERE IS AN ORGANIZATION CALLED THE
00:48:16INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF WAR.
00:48:18I W AND FOR UKRAINE
00:48:21CONSISTENTLY. I MEAN, THEY DO A KIND OF DAILY BULLETIN.
00:48:24IT JUST DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH YOU WANT. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW LIKE IF YOU
00:48:28WANT A DAILY SUB AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHO'S WINNING BOTH, THEY DO
00:48:32BOTH.
00:48:34MILITARY, THE POLITICS, THEY DO, THEY DO.
00:48:37THEY'VE STARTED THEY DO IT ABOUT AS WELL. HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING IT AS CLOSELY.
00:48:41BUT THEIR REPORTING ON UKRAINE HAS 100% ACCURATE.
00:48:43THAT'S A GREAT SUGGESTION THERE.
00:48:46SO IT'S A KIND OF THINK TANK BUT THEY SPECIALIZE ON THE
00:48:50FOLLOWING. THE MILITARY YOU KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.
00:48:53BUT IT'S A LITTLE BIT BROADER THAN THAT, TOO. THAT'S A IT'S A GREAT SUGGESTION.
00:48:57SO IF YOU WERE GIVING ADVICE TO YOUNGER OR ASPIRING JOURNALISTS
00:49:01OR HISTORIANS, WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE.
00:49:05I MEAN, MY ADVICE I WAS JUST ASKED THIS YESTERDAY AT THE
00:49:08UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA WHERE I WAS TALKING TO YOUR ROOM. PEOPLE.
00:49:13WHAT EXACTLY THIS I MEAN, THERE'S TWO PIECES OF ADVICE.
00:49:16ONE IS I ALWAYS TELL YOU TO GO
00:49:18AND LEARN A WEIRD LANGUAGE, YOU
00:49:20KNOW, AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I ONCE SAID THIS WAS ONE SPEAKING
00:49:24AT TEXAS A&M AND, YOU KNOW, A&M,
00:49:27SOME OF THE KIDS ARE TEXAS RANGERS.
00:49:30AND SO THEY WEAR THEIR UNIFORMS. AND THERE WAS A VERY EARNEST
00:49:34YOUNG MAN WHO CAME UP TO ME AND HE ASKED ME THIS QUESTION. AND I SAID TO HIM, I SAID, FOR
00:49:38EXAMPLE, WHY DON'T YOU LEARN, JURGIS? AND HE LOOKED AT ME WAS LIKE,
00:49:42OKAY, YES, MA'AM.
00:49:42AND THEN I THOUGHT, OH, NO, NO,
00:49:47NO, BECAUSE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW.
00:49:50AND SO I STARTED, YOU KNOW, MY WEIRD LANGUAGE WAS NOT THAT
00:49:53WEIRD, BUT IT WAS CONSIDERED PRETTY MINOR AT THE TIME.
00:49:56IT WAS POLISH. AND IT TURNED OUT I MEAN, YOU
00:49:59KNOW, OKAY, POLISH IS NOT LANGUAGE BY THAT MANY PEOPLE,
00:50:02BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT IF YOU KNOW POLAND, THAT GIVES YOU AN
00:50:06INSIGHT INTO CENTRAL EUROPE. CENTRAL, YEAH. GIVES YOU AN INSIGHT INTO
00:50:09WESTERN EUROPE, YOU KNOW, UNDERSTANDING EUROPE, YOU KNOW, AS USEFUL.
00:50:12AND SO HAVING A KNOWING SOME
00:50:16HAVING SOME EXPERTISE ACTUALLY IS MAYBE, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A
00:50:19LOT OF GENERALISTS AROUND, BUT THERE AREN'T THAT MANY PEOPLE
00:50:23WHO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE POLITICS OF TURKEY. YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN
00:50:27THAT, THEN SOMEBODY WILL ALWAYS
00:50:28PAY YOU FOR KNOWING, FOR KNOWING
00:50:31THAT I MEAN, YOU KNOW, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IRAN EXPERTS
00:50:35RIGHT NOW, ARE YOU KNOW, HUGE
00:50:37DEMAND FROM FRIENDS WHO ARE SO
00:50:41HAVING SOME REAL EXPERTISE AND REAL KNOWLEDGE, WHICH DOESN'T
00:50:43MEAN YOU CAN'T ALSO, YOU KNOW, WRITE AMUSING BOOK REVIEWS OR,
00:50:47YOU KNOW, HOW DO BE A GENERALIST OPINIONS ABOUT MORE GLOBAL
00:50:53THINGS. BUT IT HELPS TO BEGIN WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG WITH SOME
00:50:57SPECIALIZATION, YOU KNOW, AND THEN LATER ON YOU, YOU KNOW,
00:51:00THEN YOU'LL HAVE THE THE BASE
00:51:02AND THE KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE
00:51:04BROADER GENERALIZATIONS. TIES IN REALLY NICELY WITH ONE
00:51:07OF THE CONVERSATIONS WE WERE HAVING YESTERDAY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER YOUR PASSION IS, LEAN INTO IT OR LEAN INTO A
00:51:11RABBIT HOLE OR LEAN INTO SOMETHING THAT THAT THAT REALLY
00:51:15BELIEVE THAT. I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
00:51:18SO IT IS YOU KNOW, IT IS A IT IS DIFFICULT MOMENT IN THE WORLD IS
00:51:22A DIFFICULT MOMENT IN THE COUNTRY. BUT THERE ARE THERE ARE THINGS
00:51:24THAT GIVE US HOPE AND SO I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW WHO OR WHAT
00:51:28INSPIRES YOU.
00:51:31I'M ALWAYS ASKED THIS TO, YOU
00:51:34KNOW, IN SOME WAYS, YOU KNOW, HOPE IS SOMETHING THAT'S VERY
00:51:38SPECIFIC. SO WHAT INSPIRES ME ISN'T, YOU
00:51:41KNOW, YOU NEED PEOPLE NEED, YOU KNOW, LOOK INTO YOUR, YOU KNOW,
00:51:45IN YOUR OWN LIFE AND FIND IT IS REALLY THE BEST SERVANT.
00:51:49I MEAN, I SUPPOSE I FIND IT INSPIRING TO TALK TO YOUNGER PEOPLE.
00:51:53I MEAN, I STILL FIND IN THE GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW
00:51:56IN THEIR LATE TEENS AND 20S, I STILL FIND AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF
00:52:01IDEALISM. YOU KNOW, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.
00:52:03AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF
00:52:06CYNICISM AND EVEN THE NIHILISM THAT YOU FIND ONLINE, YOU KNOW,
00:52:09AND IN THE IN THE MORE GROWN UP
00:52:13WORLD, A LOT OF THEM HAVE AN ABSORBED THAT OR THEY SEE IT AND
00:52:17THEY YOU KNOW, THEY SEE IT AND THEY REJECT.
00:52:19AND I ALMOST I LIKE GOING TO UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES FOR THAT
00:52:24REASON. IT'S IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT POLITICS.
00:52:27IT'S JUST ABOUT THEY HAVE THIS I MEAN, THIS GENERATION, I THINK
00:52:30IN PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE SOMEBODY TO PEOPLE
00:52:34YESTERDAY BECAUSE AS THEY WERE FIFTH GRADE WHEN I WAS FIRST
00:52:38ELECTED PRESIDENT AND, YOU KNOW,
00:52:40THEIR ENTIRE UNDERSTANDING OF
00:52:42POLITICAL LIFE HAS BEEN COLORED
00:52:44BY THIS EXTREME POLARIZATION, WHICH, YOU KNOW, FOR ME WAS
00:52:48RELATIVE WAS NEW, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO ME LATER IN MY LIFE.
00:52:51I DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS QUITE LIKE THAT 30 YEARS.
00:52:54AND SO THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A IN
00:52:57A MUCH UGLIER, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL WORLD.
00:53:00AND YET THEY YOU KNOW, THEY
00:53:02UNDERSTAND THE UGLINESS AND THEY'RE ASKING, YOU KNOW, WHAT
00:53:06CAN WE DO DIFFERENTLY? I HEAR THAT A LOT.
00:53:09AND SO I THINK THEY GIVE ME HOPE.
00:53:12I WAS WITH A GROUP OF STUDENTS
00:53:14ON MONDAY, AND THEY I FOUND THE SAME THING. I MEAN, THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY
00:53:18DISAPPOINTED BY WHAT THEY'RE SEEING. THEY THEY ARE SEEING A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE MAKING THEM UPSET.
00:53:21BUT THEY'RE NOT APATHETIC. AND APATHY IS, I THINK, THE
00:53:24ENEMY THEY DESPERATE. WE WANT GUIDANCE ON HOW TO
00:53:28IMPROVE IT. AND I THINK THAT IS REMARKABLE. YOU KNOW, I AGREE.
00:53:34SO, NO, WE'RE GOING TO END IT THERE. WE'RE GOING TO END ON HOPE.
00:53:37I LOVE THAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
00:53:42THANK YOU FOR POWERING THROUGH. THANK YOU. PLEASE JOIN.
00:53:47ON THIS EPISODE OF BOOK NOTES
00:53:50PLUS WITH OUR HOST, BRIAN LAMB,
00:53:52A 2016 INTERVIEW WITH J.D. VANCE
00:53:54AND THE POLITICAL HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES.
00:53:57BOOKS HAVE HAD A BIG IMPACT ON WHO THE PUBLIC FOLLOWS IN
00:54:01ELECTIONS. IN 1956, JOHN F KENNEDY PUBLISHED PROFILES IN COURAGE,
00:54:04WHICH SOLD 2.8 MILLION COPIES BY HIS DEATH IN 1963, JIMMY CARTER
00:54:09RELEASED HIS TITLE WHY NOT THE BEST IN 1975, THE YEAR BEFORE HE
00:54:13WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT, WHEN BARACK OBAMA FIRST RELEASED HIS
00:54:16LIFE STORY IN 1995, HE ONLY SOLD
00:54:19APPROXIMATELY 9000 COPIES.
00:54:21WHEN IT WAS RERELEASED IN 2004, HE SOLD 4.7 MILLION COPIES.
00:54:25PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ART OF THE
00:54:27DEAL, PUBLISHED IN 1987, SOLD AT LEAST 1.5 MILLION.
00:54:31J.D. VANCE WAS UNKNOWN IN 2016
00:54:34WHEN HE APPEARED ON C-SPAN'S Q
00:54:36AND A HIS BOOK, HILLBILLY ELEGY,
00:54:38HAS SOLD OVER 3 MILLION COPIES. TEN YEARS LATER, HE'S 42 AND HAS
00:54:42BEEN A U.S. SENATOR FOR TWO YEARS AND VICE PRESIDENT OF THE
00:54:46UNITED STATES SINCE JANUARY OF 2025. AT 2016.
00:54:49INTERVIEW WITH AUTHOR J.D. VANCE
00:54:52ABOUT HIS BOOK, HILLBILLY ELEGY. ON THIS EPISODE OF BOOK NOTES
00:54:56PLUS WITH OUR HOST, BRIAN LAMB. BOOK NOTES PLUS IS AVAILABLE
00:54:58WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCAST
00:55:01HOSTS AND ON THE C-SPAN NOW APP.
00:55:06DISCOVER AMERICA'S STORY WITH C-SPAN'S NEW AMERICAN HISTORY TIMELINE POSTER.
00:55:10THIS LARGE 4.5FT WIDE POSTER EXPLORES THE LIVES AND PUBLIC
00:55:14SERVICE CAREERS OF EVERY U.S. PRESIDENT, ALONG WITH KEY
00:55:18HISTORICAL EVENTS. LANDMARK SUPREME COURT CASES,
00:55:21CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND
00:55:23MAJOR TECHNOLOGY MILESTONES THROUGHOUT OUR NATION'S HISTORY.
00:55:26THE POSTER ALSO FEATURES A SPECIAL AMERICA 250 SECTION
00:55:30HIGHLIGHTING THE COUNTRY'S FOUNDING AND THE 250TH
00:55:33ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES. BRING AMERICAN HISTORY HOME WITH
00:55:37C-SPAN. AMERICAN HISTORY TIMELINE POSTER
00:55:39SCAN THE CODE OR VISIT C-SPAN
00:55:45SHOPTALK.
00:55:53HELLO, I'M JASON VANSICKLE, VICE PRESIDENT FOR CURATION AND
00:55:55EDUCATION AT THE INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY MUSEUM. WE'RE