Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00ALL LIVE TOGETHER.
00:00:03IT'S AS MUCH A STORY ABOUT THE
00:00:06PEOPLE AND I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH I NEEDED TO GET TO KNOW
00:00:09ERIC MENDOZA AND SPEND TIME WITH ALBY FUENTES.
00:00:13HOLLY BENDER, WHO'S HERE FROM NASA JET PROPULSION LABORATORY. WHERE ARE YOU? HOLLY? HI.
00:00:19STAND UP. HOLLY AND ALTADENA. HUNDREDS OF HER COLLEAGUES LOST
00:00:23THEIR HOMES FROM JPL AND CALTECH
00:00:25IN THE EATON FIRE. THEY'RE STUDYING THE FIRE OF THE FUTURE.
00:00:28I GOT TO SPEND TIME WITH THEM AFTER I KNEW AND I KNEW I NEEDED TO LEARN.
00:00:32AND SO THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS ALL ABOUT AND WHY I'LL BE.
00:00:35HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON THAT I CALLED TO COME BACK TO THE
00:00:40PALISADES TO MEET ME. I WAS THEN I TEXTED MY SIBLINGS AND MY SISTER MOLLY WROTE ME BACK.
00:00:43I SAID, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ALL THESE NUMBER?
00:00:48AND AND RIGHT AWAY MOLLY WROTE ME BACK AND I CALLED OUT AND
00:00:51SAID, YOU GOT TO COME AND I THINK I'D BEEN THERE FOR DAYS.
00:00:54BUT WHEN WE HUGGED IN FRONT OF
00:00:57KATHY VITA HOME IN I, I REALLY
00:01:01NEEDED THAT.
00:01:03AND IT JUST IT REMINDED ME WHAT
00:01:05WE WERE DOING THERE AND WHAT THIS PLACE REPRESENTED AND WHY.
00:01:09WHY I NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE ALL EXPERIENCING TOGETHER.
00:01:13YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF THIS PROGRAM AND ALL OF OUR BOOK
00:01:16PROGRAMS ANY TIME ONLINE AT BOOK
00:01:18TV DOT ORG.
00:01:21BOOK TV CONTINUES NOW TELEVISION
00:01:24FOR SERIOUS READERS.
00:01:27AND NOW TO OUR SPEAKERS.
00:01:30WE'RE THRILLED TO WELCOME ALAN MCHALE TO THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL STAGE.
00:01:34DR. MCHALE IS THE CHASE FAMILY PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT YALE
00:01:37UNIVERSITY AND THE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS AWARD WINNING BOOKS.
00:01:40HIS MOST RECENT NEWCOMERS AS THE SUBJECT OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.
00:01:44WE ARE ALSO THRILLED TO WELCOME THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL OWEN
00:01:48RUSSELL SHORT OH TO THE STAGE TONIGHT. MR. SHORTER IS THE DIRECTOR OF
00:01:51THE NEW AMSTERDAM PROJECT PROJECT AT NEW YORK HISTORICAL
00:01:54AND THE AUTHOR, MOST RECENTLY OF TAKING MANHATTAN.
00:01:58MANHATTAN AND CO-CURATOR OF THE OLD MASTERS NEW AMSTERDAM
00:02:02EXHIBITION. BEFORE WE BEGIN, I ASKED THAT YOU PLEASE SILENCE YOUR
00:02:05ELECTRONIC DEVICES. AND NOW, WITHOUT FURTHER ADO,
00:02:09RUSSELL AND ALAN.
00:02:15THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MEGAN WELCOME, EVERYONE.
00:02:18WELCOME TO THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL. THANKS FOR COMING OUT ON A
00:02:21SULTRY AND I GUESS SUDDENLY STORMY EVENING.
00:02:24I SINCE I GOT HERE, I GUESS CAME INSIDE.
00:02:26THE WEATHER HAS CHANGED AND I
00:02:28WANT TO WELCOME ALAN FOR BEING
00:02:32HERE. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT THIS BRAND NEW BOOK THAT'S
00:02:36BECAUSE I'VE HAD IT FOR A WHILE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY JUST OUT LAST
00:02:40WEEK. LAST WEEK. SO HOT OFF THE PRESSES.
00:02:42THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT IS VERY
00:02:45INTERESTING TO ME.
00:02:47I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT NEW NETHERLAND AND I AND FOR A LONG
00:02:51TIME AND PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW NETHERLAND SCHOLARS, EVERYBODY
00:02:55KNOWS ANTHONY AND CRETE OR FEATURE TO GIVE THE DUTCH
00:03:00PRONUNCIATION NEWCOMERS THE STORY OF ANTHONY AND CREATURE AND THE FOUNDING OF NEW YORK.
00:03:04I WONDER IF OTHER NEW NETHERLAND
00:03:07SCHOLARS HAVE NOT HAD THE
00:03:11THOUGHT I DID. WHY DIDN'T I THINK TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THEM?
00:03:13BECAUSE THEY ARE SO, SO MEATY,
00:03:17SO RIPE. HOW DID IT HOW DID IT COME ABOUT?
00:03:22YEAH, YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU, I WAS
00:03:25ALSO JUST TAKEN WITH THE STORY OF THESE TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE
00:03:28ALWAYS DESCRIBED, SOMETIMES IN ALMOST CARTOONISH TERMS, AS
00:03:32BEING JUST OUT OF BOUNDS IN ALL
00:03:34KINDS OF WAYS.
00:03:37THEY, AS YOU KNOW, APPEAR IN THE
00:03:41RECORDS OF NEW NETHERLAND ALMOST
00:03:44AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE, THAN OTHER PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE.
00:03:48THEY ARE EVENTUALLY THROWN OUT OF THE COLONY.
00:03:52HE'S CALLED A MUSLIM. SHE'S CALLED A --.
00:03:54SO THEY ARE THESE VERY COLORFUL
00:03:58CHARACTERS.
00:04:01I WAS INITIALLY INTRIGUED AND BROUGHT INTO THIS STORY THROUGH
00:04:05THAT, THAT THAT KIND OF IMAGE OF THEM. BUT I WANTED TO OBVIOUSLY WRITE
00:04:08A SERIOUS STORY AND TO EVALUATE ALL THE SOURCE MATERIAL THAT WE
00:04:12HAD ABOUT THEM. AND TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHO
00:04:14THESE PEOPLE WERE, MAYBE BEYOND OR AGAINST THEM.
00:04:18MYTHOLOGY. HMM. LET'S BACK UP AND TALK TALK
00:04:22ABOUT THE SET, THE SCENE, THE LANDSCAPE.
00:04:24THE COLONY OF NEW NETHERLAND,
00:04:26BASICALLY 16, 24 TO 1664, WHEN
00:04:30THE ENGLISH TAKE OVER AND IT
00:04:32BECOMES NEW YORK, THE CAPITAL OF NEW AMSTERDAM, AT THE SOUTHERN
00:04:34TIP OF MANHATTAN ISLAND TODAY,
00:04:36THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT IN THE
00:04:40EARLY DAYS, IT'S A ROUGH AND ROWDY PLACE.
00:04:44AND AS YOU SAY, THE NEW NETHERLAND RECORDS IN THOSE
00:04:46EARLY DAYS REFLECT THAT WHEN DID
00:04:52THAT WHEN DO THEY APPEAR? AND WHAT'S THE WHAT'S THE HOW DO THEY PRESENT THEMSELVES
00:04:56INITIALLY IN THE RECORDS? RIGHT. SO THERE'S A WHOLE STORY ABOUT
00:05:00THEM BEFORE THEY ARRIVE. WE'LL GET THERE, WHICH MAYBE
00:05:03WE'LL GET INTO ACTUALLY, LET'S DO IT THIS WAY.
00:05:06CAN YOU GIVE US AN OVERVIEW OF THE MYTH OR RATHER THE TWIN MEN?
00:05:10SURE. AND THEN I'LL ASK YOU TO KIND OF UNPACK THE MYTH. SURE.
00:05:14SO TO TAKE EACH OF THEM IN TURN,
00:05:16ANTHONY, IT IS SAID, WAS THE SON
00:05:21OF A DUTCH CONVERT TO ISLAM WHO SETTLED IN MOROCCO.
00:05:25SO IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH
00:05:27CENTURY OR SAILORS, PIRATES AND
00:05:32ALL KINDS OF TRADERS ARE MOVING BETWEEN THE MEDITERRANEAN AND
00:05:35THE EASTERN ATLANTIC, THERE ARE PIRATES IN EUROPE, THERE ARE
00:05:39PIRATES IN NORTH AFRICA. THERE ARE MERCHANTS IN EUROPE. THERE ARE MERCHANTS IN NORTH AFRICA.
00:05:43AND SHIPS ARE OFTEN CAPTURED.
00:05:45SO MANY EUROPEANS WERE CAPTURED AND HELD IN CAPTIVITY IN NORTH
00:05:51AFRICA, USUALLY FOR RANSOMS. ONE OF THE WAYS THAT THEY COULD
00:05:55GO FREE BEYOND PAYING FOR THEIR
00:05:57FREEDOM WAS TO CONVERT TO ISLAM
00:05:59AND TO AGREE TO WORK FOR THE LOCAL POTENTATE WHEREVER THEY WERE.
00:06:03SO MANY DUTCH PEOPLE DID THIS IN
00:06:06THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY AND MANY SETTLED IN THIS
00:06:10TOWN OF SALEH, WHICH IS TODAY NEAR THE MOROCCAN CITY OF
00:06:14ROBERT. AND SO ONE OF THESE FIGURES WAS
00:06:16A MAN NAMED JOHN JOHNSON, VERY
00:06:20DUTCH NAME, WHO CONVERTED TO
00:06:22GAIN HIS FREEDOM AFTER BEING
00:06:25CAPTURED AND CHANGED HIS NAME TO MUATH RAIS.
00:06:29SO IN THE SOURCES OF NETHERLAND,
00:06:31THERE IS THIS CHARACTER, ANTHONY
00:06:34THE TURK, ANTHONY JOHNSON VON SALEH.
00:06:37SO ANTHONY JOHNSON FROM SALEH, FROM THE CITY IN MOROCCO.
00:06:42SO IN THE 19TH CENTURY, A HISTORIAN SORT OF OFFERED A
00:06:46HYPOTHESIS THAT PERHAPS THIS CHARACTER, A NEW NEVIN, WAS THE
00:06:50SON OF THIS GUY, JOHN JOHNSON,
00:06:52WHO WAS IN SALEH. AND THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN WHY HE
00:06:56HAS THIS WEIRD KIND OF OUTSIZED,
00:07:00COLORFUL ROLE IN THE COLONY. SO THAT'S THE KIND OF MYTH OF
00:07:03ANTHONY'S ORIGINS.
00:07:07GRAECIA IT. AND LET ME JUST ASK YOU, IN THE
00:07:1117TH CENTURY RECORDS, HE'S FUN TO PLAY.
00:07:13HE IS SO THERE'S ARE YOU GOING
00:07:17TO GET YOU'RE GOING TO UNPACK THAT. BUT WE'RE GOING TO UNPACK. OKAY. YEAH. NO DEGREE.
00:07:22YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
00:07:23SO CRITO IS IS USUALLY HE
00:07:28DISPARAGED IN THE RECORDS OF NEW
00:07:30NETHERLAND AS A --, AS SOMEONE
00:07:34WHO MAYBE KILLED CHILDREN, AS
00:07:38SOMEONE WHO GOT IN FIGHTS, OFTEN WITH HER NEIGHBORS, INCLUDING
00:07:41THE DUTCH, REFORMED MINISTER'S WIFE.
00:07:43THERE'S A VERY FAMOUS INCIDENT IN WHICH HE MOONS A GROUP OF
00:07:47SAILORS WHO ARE LEAVING. WHAT BECOMES NEW YORK HARBOR.
00:07:52SO SHE'S USUALLY THOUGHT OF AS AS YOU KNOW, A WOMAN OF ILL
00:07:56REPUTE AT THE BOUNDS OF KIND OF THE MORAL COMMUNITY OF THE COURT.
00:08:00AND THERE'S ANOTHER FAMOUS INCIDENT IN WHICH SHE SUPPOSEDLY
00:08:03MEASURES HER CUSTOMERS ON A BROOMSTICK. YES.
00:08:06AND SHE'S NOT MEASURING THEIR HEIGHT. YES. YES. OKAY.
00:08:10OKAY. SO THIS IS REALLY RICH STUFF. TOTALLY.
00:08:14AND AND IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT SO THE DUTCH, THE RECORDS OF NEW
00:08:18NETHERLAND, I THINK CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THESE REFERENCES
00:08:22ARE MOSTLY TO THE NEW NETHERLAND
00:08:26DOCUMENTS THAT WERE TRANSLATED
00:08:28IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY BY YES, AJ FUNNELS, FOR EXAMPLE, SO
00:08:32MUCH THE CHARLES GOERING LETTER BECAUSE THEY APPEAR EARLY IN THE
00:08:36STORY, THEY APPEAR VERY EARLY IN THE RECORDS THAT WE HAVE FROM
00:08:40EUROPE. AND SO BEGINNING IN THE 1630S, IT'S SOMETHING LIKE THE SEVENTH
00:08:44CASE IN THE ENTIRE RECORD OF THE COLONY IS ABOUT ANTHONY AND RACHEL.
00:08:49YEAH, SO WE DID A LITTLE OF THE MYTHOLOGY TO SAY A LITTLE BIT
00:08:53MORE ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT COMPLICATE THOSE KIND OF VERY
00:08:56INTERESTING STORIES IN THE STORY
00:08:59OF ANTHONY AS MUSLIM IS AGAINST
00:09:03THE FACT THAT HE MARRIES TWICE IN THE DUTCH REFORMED CHURCH,
00:09:06OSTENSIBLY CHRISTIAN MARRIAGES
00:09:10BAPTIZED AS A DAUGHTER IN THE
00:09:12CHURCH, ASKS FOR A MINISTER TO
00:09:14BE ASSIGNED TO HIS COMMUNITY IN NEW NETHERLAND.
00:09:18THERE'S NOTHING IN THE RECORDS
00:09:21THAT WOULD INDICATE ANY ACTION STATEMENT ON HIS PART THAT WOULD
00:09:25THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE ANYTHING WE MIGHT THINK OF AS MUSLIM.
00:09:29EVERYTHING THAT HE DID IN THE COLONY. THAT SUGGESTS A RELIGION,
00:09:31SUGGESTS CHRISTIANITY MIGHT EVEN
00:09:34SAY DOES REFORM CHRISTIANITY IN
00:09:38HIS MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE TO RITA IN AMSTERDAM, THEY MARRY IN
00:09:43AMSTERDAM IN 1629. HE DOES NOT SAY HE'S FROM MOROCCO.
00:09:46IN FACT, HE SAYS HE'S FROM CARTAGENA, A CITY IN SPAIN.
00:09:50SO ON THE ONE HAND, WE HAVE THIS
00:09:52STORY OF THIS MUSLIM GUY AND THE
00:09:54RECORDS SAY THAT HE'S A MUSLIM
00:09:56AND WE HAVE ALL THIS EVIDENCE THAT SEEMS TO SUGGEST HE'S CHRISTIAN.
00:10:00SO WHAT DOES THAT CONUNDRUM ABOUT AND HOW TO FIGURE THAT OUT?
00:10:03I SPENT A BOOK TRYING TO DO THAT
00:10:06AND WE CAN GET INTO SOME OF THE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY I THINK
00:10:09WE CAN WE CAN THINK HOW THAT MAKES SENSE.
00:10:13RITA, FOR HER PART, IS A PERSON
00:10:16WHO HAD A VERY HARROWING EXPERIENCE.
00:10:20SHE WAS A SHE WAS BORN IN VESSEL
00:10:22IN WHAT IS TODAY WEST GERMANY.
00:10:24AND LIKE MANY YOUNG WOMEN OF
00:10:27THAT ERA, SAILED DOWN THE RIVER TO AMSTERDAM.
00:10:29AMSTERDAM IS BOOMING IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY,
00:10:32ITS POPULATION TRIPLES IN SIZE
00:10:36AND MANY YOUNG WOMEN COME TO THE CITY FOR WORK. SHE IS ONE OF THEM.
00:10:40SHE FINDS WORK IN A HOUSEHOLD AS A MAID SERVANTS, WHICH WAS A
00:10:43VERY COMMON STORY FOR WOMEN IN THIS PERIOD.
00:10:46IMMIGRANT WOMEN ESPECIALLY, AND
00:10:50ALL THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT THE HEAD OF THAT HOUSEHOLD HAD
00:10:53SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER.
00:10:56SHE BECOMES THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOU UNCOVERED, IS THAT.
00:11:00YEAH. THAT THE MAJOR KIND OF ARCHIVAL
00:11:03FINDS THAT THAT THAT I UNCOVERED ARE REALLY ABOUT HER MUM AND HER
00:11:08LIFE BEFORE SHE MARRIES. AND WHERE DID YOU FIND THESE.
00:11:11THESE ARE IN THE NETHERLANDS, IN
00:11:13THE CITY ARCHIVE OF AMSTERDAM.
00:11:17IN THE NOTARIAL RECORDS.
00:11:20SO THE CHILD DIES OR WAS MURDERED?
00:11:23WE DON'T KNOW. SHE NO LONGER WORKS IN THAT
00:11:27HOUSEHOLD FOR PERHAPS OBVIOUS REASONS, AND FINDS HERSELF
00:11:31LIVING ON THE DOCKYARDS IN AMSTERDAM, WHICH IS AGAIN, NOT
00:11:34AN UNCOMMON STORY. WORKING IN A BAR, SOMETIMES A
00:11:39BROTHEL, SOMETIMES THOSE TWO INSTITUTIONS WERE ONE IN THE
00:11:43SAME. THAT PLAYED A VERY IMPORTANT FUNCTION IN STAFFING.
00:11:47THE THE COMPANIES THAT WERE
00:11:50WORKING IN AND OUT OF THE DOCKS. ESSENTIALLY THE STORY IS THAT MEN WOULD RUN UP HUGE DEBTS IN
00:11:54THESE TAVERNS FOR ALCOHOL.
00:11:57SOMETIMES SEX, AND THAT THE WEST
00:11:59INDIA COMPANY, THE EAST INDIA
00:12:01COMPANY, WHICH ARE SOME OF THE LARGEST CORPORATIONS IN THE
00:12:05WORLD IN THIS PERIOD, NEEDED MEN
00:12:08TO STAFF THEIR SHIPPING, THEIR SHIPPING NETWORKS.
00:12:10AND SO THEY WOULD AGREE TO PAY THE DEBTS OF THESE MEN IN
00:12:14EXCHANGE FOR THEM BECOMING LABORERS FOR THEM.
00:12:17SO WOMEN IN THESE INSTITUTIONS OF THE BARS AND BROTHELS SERVED
00:12:20AS INTERMEDIARIES, ESSENTIALLY
00:12:22PRODUCING LABOR FOR FOR THESE COMPANIES.
00:12:25SO SHE MAY HAVE PLAYED THAT ROLE. AND WE DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN,
00:12:30BUT CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT THEY PROBABLY MET
00:12:32ON THE DOCKYARDS IN ONE OF THESE INSTITUTIONS IN THE LATE 1620S,
00:12:36AND THAT'S HOW THEY THEY EVENTUALLY MARRIED AND THEY MARRIED THERE.
00:12:40THEY MARRIED IN AMSTERDAM IN 1629. I SHOULD QUALIFY THAT A LITTLE
00:12:44BIT BY SAYING THEIR MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE ACTUALLY HAS A
00:12:47MARGINAL NOTE THAT SAYS THEY ARE GIVEN PERMISSION TO MARRY ON THE
00:12:50SHIP, WHICH WAS NOT AN UNCOMMON
00:12:54THING IN THIS PERIOD. SO THEY MAY HAVE ACTUALLY
00:12:56COMPLETED THE MARRIAGE IN IN IN
00:12:58AFTER MARRIAGES TOOK THREE WEEKS
00:13:01OR THEY MIGHT HAVE SET SAIL
00:13:03BEFORE BEFORE FINALIZING THE MARRIAGE.
00:13:06WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THEY ARRIVED IN NEW NETHERLAND.
00:13:10I GO THROUGH THE POSSIBILITIES IN THE BOOK, BUT IT WAS SOMETIME
00:13:13IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 1630S.
00:13:14OKAY, BACK TO ANTHONY, YOUR FIRST CHAPTER ON HIM.
00:13:18YOU CALLED MAUDE AND MAUDE.
00:13:19YEAH, WHICH IS NICE TO FIRST OF
00:13:23ALL, JUST SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE TERM MORE.
00:13:25YEAH, I MEAN, MORE IS IS ONE OF
00:13:28THESE EARLY MODERN TERMS.
00:13:31EXCUSE THE ACADEMIC IN ME THAT
00:13:33HAS A VERY COMPLICATED MEANING.
00:13:35IT WAS USED TO REFER TO MUSLIMS.
00:13:39IT WAS USED TO REFER TO BLACKS.
00:13:43IT WAS USED TO REFER TO AFRICANS.
00:13:45IT WAS USED TO REFER TO ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
00:13:49THERE ARE EVEN INSTANCES IN WHICH -- IN SPAIN ARE REFERRED
00:13:52TO AS BEING MOORS.
00:13:54SO I THINK THE GENERAL IDEA THAT
00:13:56WE SHOULD HAVE IN OUR MIND IS FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE, A
00:14:00PERSON WHO IS AN OUTSIDER OR
00:14:04RACIALIZED IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY, A NONWHITE PERSON AND A
00:14:08PERSON WHO IS THOUGHT TO BE OPPOSITIONAL OR OTHERED IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY.
00:14:12OKAY, SO HIS CAN YOU CAN YOU
00:14:19SKETCH OUT HOW HIS HE ARRIVES IN
00:14:22NEW AMSTERDAM AND HOW WHAT WOULD
00:14:26CAUSE THEM TO BEGIN TO PERCEIVE HIM AS OTHER ZAMORA'S RIGHT.
00:14:31SOMEONE WHO'S NOT PART OF THEIR COMMUNITY. RIGHT. SO ALL THE THINGS I JUST
00:14:33DESCRIBED, WE COULD WE COULD ASCRIBE TO ANTHONY, RIGHT?
00:14:36HE IS RACIALIZE AS BEING NONWHITE IN THE COLONY.
00:14:40HE'S DEFINITELY THOUGHT TO BE AN OUTSIDER, BOTH HE AND A
00:14:43CREATURE. AND THERE IS SOME PROBABLE
00:14:47CONNECTION THAT HE HAD TO NORTH AFRICA.
00:14:50SO AS I SAID WHEN I WAS TALKING
00:14:54ABOUT THIS KIND OF ECONOMY OF CAPTIVES, IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE
00:14:57THAT HE WAS BORN IN CARTAGENA, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS CAPTURED BY
00:15:01NORTH AFRICAN PIRATES, SPENT SOME TIME IN NORTH AFRICA IN
00:15:03WHAT IS TODAY, MOROCCO. SO THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE TO
00:15:07SUGGEST THAT THAT IS THE PATH THAT BROUGHT HIM TO AMSTERDAM
00:15:11EVENTUALLY. SO I THINK THERE WAS SOME REAL
00:15:13WORLD CONNECTION HE MAY HAVE HAD
00:15:15TO TO MOROCCO, BUT IT'S NOT THE ONE THAT WE USE.
00:15:18THERE'S NOTHING IN THE RECORDS TO SUGGEST WHY HE'S REFERRED TO AS FUN.
00:15:22SALEH THAT THAT'S RIGHT.
00:15:24THERE IS NO SOURCE CLAIMING THAT
00:15:28HE WAS BORN IN SALAH OR THAT HE
00:15:32SPENT TIME THERE. THIS IS THE NAME THAT HE HAS GIVEN IN THE RECORDS.
00:15:35AND WE SHOULD SAY AND AS YOU KNOW, RUSSELL ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN
00:15:39NEW NETHERLAND, OF WHICH THERE
00:15:41WERE MANY, OFTEN HAVE NAMES LIKE
00:15:43VAN ANGOLA OR VAN CONGO AND THAT
00:15:47DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY ARE BORN OR ARE FROM THOSE
00:15:51PLACES, BUT IT MEANS EITHER THAT
00:15:53THEY HAVE AN IMAGINED CONNECTION
00:15:55TO THOSE PLACES OR THAT THEY, IN
00:15:57THE CASE OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE, WERE CAPTURED IN THOSE PLACES OR
00:16:00PUT ON A SHIP IN THOSE PLACES,
00:16:03SOMEHOW HAVE IN THEIR BIOGRAPHY
00:16:06A CONNECTION TO THIS PLACE? YEAH.
00:16:08AND SO YOU'RE SAYING THE SAME MUST MAY HAVE BEEN THE CASE FOR HIM.
00:16:12YES. YEAH. YEAH. OKAY.
00:16:14AND PHYSICALLY HE MANIFESTS AS
00:16:18SOMEONE DIFFERENT AS, AS AN OUTSIDER. AND THIS MATTERS SOMEHOW.
00:16:22I GUESS WHAT I'M STARTING MOVING
00:16:23TOWARD NOW IS.
00:16:28THE EUROPEAN. I'D LIKE TO YOU TO TALK A LITTLE
00:16:31BIT ABOUT THE EUROPEAN APPROACH
00:16:35TO ISLAM, TO THE MUSLIM WORLD,
00:16:38OR FOR THAT MATTER, TO PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT SKIN COLOR. RIGHT.
00:16:42SO, YOU KNOW, IF IF WE HAVE AT THE CENTER OF THE STORY, THIS
00:16:45THIS CONUNDRUM, AGAIN, OF A PERSON WHO IS CALLED DESCRIBED
00:16:49AS BEING A TURK OR BEING MUSLIM AND YET SEEMS TO TO ALWAYS
00:16:53PROJECT CHRISTIANITY WHEN HE IS
00:16:58ACTING OF HIS OWN VOLITION, I THINK IT TELLS US MORE ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE CLAIMING THAT HE
00:17:02IS A TURK THAN IT DOES ABOUT HIMSELF. AND SO THAT'S WHERE WE GET TO THEN.
00:17:06WHAT FORM THAT IMAGE IN THE
00:17:08MINDS OF THESE EUROPEANS? RIGHT. NOT EVERYBODY IN NEW NETHERLAND
00:17:11WAS DUTCH, RIGHT? BUT MOST OF THEM WERE EUROPEANS.
00:17:14AND WE HAVE A SET OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE, WE SHOULD SAY, AS WELL,
00:17:18THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THE COLONY AND
00:17:22INTERACT WITH THE COLONY WERE NATIVE PEOPLES, THOUGH NOT THE
00:17:25CANARSIE HACKENSACK. THOSE WHO LIVED AROUND WHAT IS
00:17:29TODAY NEW YORK HARBOR, BUT IN
00:17:31THE MINDS OF EUROPEANS, OF
00:17:35CHRISTENDOM, ISLAM WAS WAS THE GREAT OTHER OF THE MEDITERRANEAN
00:17:38RIGHT? THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THIS GARGANTUAN GEOGRAPHICAL STATE
00:17:42THAT WAS TAKING TERROR ARTERY IN
00:17:44EASTERN EUROPE, TAKING TERRITORY
00:17:47FROM SPAIN AND PORTUGAL IN NORTH AFRICA, THEIR COLONIES IN NORTH
00:17:51AFRICA THAT WAS STEALING THEIR YOUNG BOYS AND HOLDING THEM IN
00:17:56CAPTIVITY IN NORTH AFRICA.
00:17:58ISLAM WAS THIS THIS THREAT.
00:18:02FOR EUROPEANS IN THE EARLY MODERN PERIOD.
00:18:05ISLAM IS ALSO DESCRIBED AS SIN
00:18:08FOR EUROPEANS, RIGHT.
00:18:10SO SO WHY IS IT THAT CHRISTENDOM
00:18:15IS LOSING TERRITORY TO THE OTTOMANS? LET'S SAY IT'S BECAUSE
00:18:18CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ACTING AS A PIOUS CHRISTIAN.
00:18:22SHOULD THAT THERE IS SIN IN THE
00:18:24HEARTS OF OF CHRISTIANS AND THE
00:18:27ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT THE ENEMY ON
00:18:29THE BATTLEFIELD IS TO RELIEVE
00:18:32THEMSELVES OF THE ENEMY FROM WITHIN.
00:18:34SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CHRISTIAN WRITERS THROUGHOUT THE
00:18:3816TH AND THE 17TH CENTURIES TALK
00:18:40ABOUT THAT ISLAM IS IS A FORM OF SIN THAT CHRISTENDOM NEEDS TO
00:18:45EXPUNGE FIRST FROM ITS HEART AND THEN FROM THE EARTH.
00:18:50SO WE SEE THIS IN ALL KINDS OF
00:18:53LITERATURE FROM THE EARLY MODERN PERIOD.
00:18:57AND THIS IS A VERY, VERY SALIENT
00:18:57AND IMPORTANT IDEA FOR EUROPEANS.
00:19:01SO WHEN FACED WITH A PERSON WHO
00:19:03SEEMINGLY HAD SOME CONNECTION TO THIS PART OF THE WORLD, SEEMED
00:19:07TO LOOK LIKE OTHER OTHER OTHER
00:19:10MUSLIMS, AS AS PEOPLE IMAGINED
00:19:12IT, IT WAS VERY EASY TO FALL
00:19:14INTO THAT KIND OF MINDSET,
00:19:17SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN FORGED
00:19:18IN EUROPE FOR CENTURIES.
00:19:21CAN I ASK IF YOU CAN COMPARE OR
00:19:23CONTRAST THE EUROPEAN, THE
00:19:25DUTCH, THE EUROPEAN NOTION OF
00:19:28ISLAM, OF MUSLIMS WITH THAT OF --?
00:19:30YEAH, FOR SURE.
00:19:32SO -- AND MUSLIMS ARE BOTH
00:19:37RACIALIZED FOR THE DUTCH AND FOR OTHER EUROPEANS, RIGHT?
00:19:40SPAIN EXPELS ITS -- AND THEN IT
00:19:42EXPELS ITS MUSLIMS. --.
00:19:45UNLIKE MUSLIMS, DID NOT HAVE A POLITICAL STATE AROUND THE
00:19:49MEDITERRANEAN. THERE WAS NO JEWISH EQUIVALENT
00:19:51OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
00:19:53SO UNLIKE --, MUSLIMS
00:19:56REPRESENTED A POLITICAL THREAT IN A VERY SALIENT WAY OVER
00:20:00TERRITORY, GEOGRAPHY IN A WAY
00:20:03THAT THAT -- DID NOT.
00:20:05SO ANTISEMITISM TAKES ON A VERY
00:20:07DIFFERENT FLAVOR THAN DOES
00:20:09ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT IN IN
00:20:12EUROPE AND THE STORY OF THE
00:20:14SEPHARDIM IN THE NETHERLANDS IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE.
00:20:18AS YOU KNOW, IN THIS PERIOD, WE KNOW LESS ABOUT THE MARISCO.
00:20:22SO THE MARISCO ARE IBERIAN
00:20:27MUSLIMS WHO CONVERTED TO
00:20:29CATHOLICISM OSTENSIBLY AND WERE
00:20:32EVENTUALLY EXPELLED FROM SPAIN
00:20:34ABOUT A CENTURY AFTER THE -- WERE EXPELLED.
00:20:37AND MANY OF THEM DO END UP IN THE NETHERLANDS. AND THERE'S A WHOLE INTERESTING
00:20:41STORY THERE ABOUT ABOUT THE
00:20:45IMPORTATION OF ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS TO A PLACE LIKE LEYDEN.
00:20:48SO LEYDEN BECOMES ONE OF THE EARLIEST CENTERS IN EUROPE FOR
00:20:51THE STUDY OF ISLAM AND THE
00:20:54MARIST GOES BRING TEXTS AND
00:20:56BOOKS AND OTHER THINGS WITH THEM
00:20:58TO TO LEYDEN OTHER CITIES. OKAY.
00:21:01SO FROM THAT, LET ME ASK YOU A
00:21:04LITTLE TO SAY SOMETHING FROM
00:21:06YOUR PERSPECTIVE ABOUT DUTCH TOLERANCE, INTOLERANCE, THE
00:21:09LIMITS OF DUTCH TOLERANCE.
00:21:12THERE IS THIS NOTION GOING BACK TO THE PREVIOUS CENTURY, THIS
00:21:16THIS IT'S SORT OF ENSHRINED IN
00:21:18THEIR DE FACTO CONSTITUTIONS OR ON THE OTHER.
00:21:21AND YOU'VE GOT THE -- GOING THERE.
00:21:25AND I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT MUSLIMS GOING TO PLACES LIKE
00:21:29AMSTERDAM BECAUSE IT THEY ARE IF
00:21:31WELCOMED AS TOO STRONG A WORD,
00:21:33THEY ARE TOLERATED, AT LEAST SO.
00:21:37SO WITH REGARD TO COMING BACK TO
00:21:41ANTHONY. YEAH. AND HOW HE APPEARED AND THEN
00:21:44SAL, A NOTION HOW YOU KNOW WHAT
00:21:49MIGHT BE IN THE MINDS OF OTHER EUROPEANS, OF THE DUTCH, WHEN
00:21:54THERE APPROACHING HIM. YEAH. SO THE STORY OF ANTHONY A
00:21:57CREATURE IN NEW NETHERLAND SO EVERYTHING YOU SAID ABOUT SORT
00:22:00OF TOLERATION AND TOLERANCE IN
00:22:02AMSTERDAM, PEOPLE SAY ABOUT NEW NETHERLAND AS WELL.
00:22:05AND I THINK THE COUPLE ARE VERY INTERESTING IN THIS REGARD.
00:22:09RIGHT. ON THE ONE HAND, WE COULD SAY THAT THEY BOLSTER THAT STORY OF
00:22:13OF OF TOLERANCE AND SOME PEOPLE
00:22:15HAVE NARRATED THEM IN THAT WAY, RIGHT? THAT NEW NETHERLAND AND NEW
00:22:19AMSTERDAM, THE PLACE THAT BECOMES NEW YORK CITY WAS
00:22:23TOLERANT AND CAPITALIST AND MULTI CULTURAL AND
00:22:26MULTI-RELIGIOUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. LOOK, THERE WAS EVEN A MUSLIM
00:22:31RIGHT? SO SO WE MIGHT SAY THAT, YES,
00:22:33THAT IS A MUCH HAPPIER STORY
00:22:35THAN YOU WOULD FIND IN LOTS OF OTHER PLACES.
00:22:38ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU COULD SAY
00:22:41THIS IS A COUPLE THAT IS BANISHED FROM THE COLONY.
00:22:45RIGHT. THAT ARE DISCRIMINATED AS PERHAPS TOO STRONG A WORD, BUT
00:22:48THAT ARE LOOKED DOWN UPON, THAT ARE IMPUGNED, THAT ARE INSULTED
00:22:52AND ALL KINDS OF WAYS. AND THAT REALLY REPRESENTS SORT
00:22:54OF THE BOUNDS OF TOLERATION IN A
00:22:58PLACE LIKE NEW NETHERLAND.
00:23:00AND HELP US TO THINK ABOUT HOW
00:23:02FAR TOLERANCE ACTUALLY WENT IN
00:23:07IN THIS DUTCH SOCIETY OR DIDN'T GO OR DIDN'T GO.
00:23:10SO IN THE CASE OF A PERCEIVED MUSLIM, WE CAN ALSO LOOK AT THE
00:23:14COLONY IN THE WAY -- WERE
00:23:15TREATED IN STUYVESANT TRYING TO EXPEL THEM.
00:23:20QUAKERS TOTALLY. WE HAVE IN THE IN THE EXHIBITION
00:23:22HERE WE HAD UNTIL THE OTHER DAY
00:23:25THE THE ORIGINAL THE FLUSHING
00:23:27REMONSTRANCE ITSELF. WE WE COULD ONLY HAVE IT FOR A WEEK BECAUSE IT'S A VERY FRAGILE
00:23:32DOCUMENT WHICH SPEAKS TO THIS
00:23:34NOTION OF THE LIMITS OF DUTCH TOLERANCE.
00:23:37SO THERE IS THIS OFFICIAL POLICY AND YET IN PRACTICE THINGS GET
00:23:41MORE COMPLICATED.
00:23:44AND I GUESS THAT'S PART OF THE STORY OF ANTHONY WITH THE CAVEAT
00:23:48THAT YOU'RE SAYING HE WAS NEVER MUSLIM TO BEGIN WITH. RIGHT? RIGHT.
00:23:51BUT HE HE IS PERCEIVED TO BE AT THE TIME. RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.
00:23:55SO SO HOW THEN AND I'M ASKING YOU TO SPECULATE HERE, IF HE IF
00:23:58INDEED ANTHONY WASN'T A MUSLIM AND EVERYBODY WAS TREATING HIM A
00:24:02CERTAIN WAYS BECAUSE HE WAS A MUSLIM, I MEAN, WOULDN'T HE HAVE
00:24:04JUST SAID, NO, YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG GUY? YEAH.
00:24:08I MEAN, SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY A
00:24:11PART FROM STATEMENTS WRITTEN IN
00:24:14RECORDS BY OTHERS CLAIMING TO BE ANTHONY'S WORDS.
00:24:18YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE ANY LETTERS. WE DON'T HAVE A DIARY. WE DON'T HAVE ANY STATEMENTS BY
00:24:22ANTHONY ABOUT HIS PERCEIVED, YOU KNOW, HOW HE THINKS ABOUT HIMSELF.
00:24:28WE HAVE HIS ACTIONS. AND SO I IN THE BOOK ARGUE THAT
00:24:31WE HAVE TO READ HIS ACTIONS AS STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT
00:24:35ABOUT HIMSELF AND THESE ALL HIS
00:24:37ACTIONS SUGGEST THAT HE
00:24:39CONSIDERS HIMSELF TO BE A AT
00:24:41LEAST MEMBER OF DUTCH REFORM
00:24:46SOCIETY, THE DOMINANT CULTURAL,
00:24:48RELIGIOUS MILIEU IN WHICH HE
00:24:52LIVED. HE SAW HIMSELF AS PART OF THE COMMUNITY. RIGHT.
00:24:56EVEN AFTER HE'S BANISHED. AND MAYBE WE CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THEIR LIVES ONCE
00:24:59THEY'RE ON LONG ISLAND, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE BANISHED, THEY STILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE
00:25:03IN THE LIFE OF THE COLONY.
00:25:06SO BAPTISM BAPTIZING A CHILD IS
00:25:09A WAY OF MAKING CLAIMS THAT WE BELONG TO THE SOCIETY OWNING
00:25:15PROPERTY, USING THE INSTITUTIONS
00:25:17OF THAT SOCIETY FOR ALL KINDS OF
00:25:21TRANSACTIONS IS A PART OF MAKING A CLAIM THAT WE BELONG TO THIS
00:25:25SOCIETY. AND SO I THINK ANTHONY SAW HIMSELF AS BELONGING TO NEW NETHERLAND.
00:25:29MAYBE HE WASN'T RELIGIOUS AT ALL. YEAH, YOU KNOW, MAYBE HE DIDN'T
00:25:32BELIEVE IN IN THE NEED TO HAVE A RELIGION.
00:25:36OR MAYBE HE WAS INDEED A MUSLIM ORIGINALLY.
00:25:38BUT SURE, I MEAN, HOW HOW CAN YOU BE A MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY
00:25:42IF YOU'RE THE ONLY MEMBER OF A OF THE COMMUNITY YOU IT'S EASIER
00:25:46TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS IS MY COMMUNITY. I'LL THAT'S RIGHT.
00:25:48AND BECAUSE THE THE EARLIEST SOURCE WE HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS
00:25:51HIS MERIT CERTIFICATE TO RETIRE IN 1629.
00:25:54IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT HE WAS
00:25:56BORN A MUSLIM AND SOMEHOW CONVERTED EARLY IN HIS LIFE,
00:26:00CONVERTED IN AMSTERDAM TO GET MARRIED AGAIN, DIDN'T CARE ABOUT
00:26:04RELIGION. MAYBE HE WAS A CLOSETED MUSLIM
00:26:08CLAIMING TO BE DUTCH, REFORMED. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
00:26:11I CAN'T READ ANTHONY'S HEART. I CAN ONLY READ HIS ACTIONS.
00:26:15TALK ABOUT THE THERE'S I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE IT ORIGINATES,
00:26:19BUT THERE'S A STORY THAT THERE WAS A KORAN IN. THERE IS A STORY. YEAH.
00:26:23YEAH. I MEAN, SO I THINK ONCE THE ONCE
00:26:26THE KIND OF MYTHOLOGY OF ANTHONY
00:26:28STARTS GOING, IT GOES IN ALL OF THESE DIRECTIONS AS THESE THINGS
00:26:31TEND TO DO, IT STARTS SNOWBALLING.
00:26:33SO THERE IS THIS STORY THAT IN
00:26:36THE 19TH CENTURY AND A SECOND HAND BOOKSHOP IN SOMEWHERE IN
00:26:39NEW JERSEY, SOMEONE FOUND SUPPOSEDLY ANTHONY'S KORAN AND
00:26:43THEN CONVENIENTLY IT'S BEEN LOST THAT.
00:26:47OKAY. SO I DON'T I DON'T PUT TOO MUCH STOCK INTO. YEAH YEAH YEAH. OKAY.
00:26:50I ASKED YOU WE'LL GET BACK TO CRETE IN A MOMENT AND AND THEIR
00:26:53LIFE IN NEW AMSTERDAM AND BEYOND.
00:26:56BUT I ASKED YOU ABOUT MORE THE TURK IS THE OTHER TERM APPLIED
00:27:01TO HIM. YEAH. TURK IS SIMILARLY ONE OF THOSE
00:27:05SQUIRRELY TERMS IN THIS PERIOD.
00:27:07IN THE MOST GENERAL SENSE IN MEANT MUSLIM. MHM. RIGHT.
00:27:10TURNING TURK MEANT CONVERTING TO ISLAM. RIGHT.
00:27:15SO SOMEONE LIKE JOHN JOHNSON WHEN HE CONVERTS TO ISLAM TO
00:27:17GAIN HIS FREEDOM IN NORTH AFRICA IS SAID TO TURN TURK.
00:27:22MM. TURK COULD ALSO REFER TO THE
00:27:25OTTOMAN EMPIRE RIGHT. ETHNIC TURKS OR THOSE IN THE
00:27:29OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
00:27:31TURK COULD ALSO IT WAS ALSO USED
00:27:33TO REFER TO NON-MUSLIMS, RIGHT?
00:27:35IT WAS USED AS AN INSULT TO
00:27:38REFER TO OUTSIDERS OF ALL KINDS IN SOCIETY.
00:27:42SO WE HAVE INSTANCES AGAIN, OF CHRISTIANS BEING REFERRED TO AS
00:27:45TURKS OF --, BEING REFERRED TO AS TURKS, PEOPLE WHO ARE
00:27:51REBELLIOUS OR AGAINST THE KIND OF DOMINANT SOCIETY IN WHICH THEY FIND THEMSELVES.
00:27:53THEY'RE VERY MODERN ECHOES OF THIS.
00:27:57RIGHT? SO IN THE GODFATHER. RIGHT.
00:28:00ONE OF ONE OF THE KIND OF ENEMY GUYS IS CALLED THE TURK. RIGHT.
00:28:06SO SO BUT TURK IN IN THE MOST GENERAL SENSE SIMPLY MEANT A
00:28:10MUSLIM. OKAY. SO IF ANTHONY REPRESENTED A
00:28:15CERTAIN VIEW OF OF ISLAM IN THE
00:28:18IN THE 17TH CENTURY MINDSET AND
00:28:20AND BEYOND, WHAT DID CREED REPRESENT? YEAH.
00:28:24I MEAN SO TO ME OR TO HER SOCIETY.
00:28:28WELL, TO HER SOCIETY AND THEN,
00:28:29YOU KNOW, AND SINCE THEN, I MEAN SHE'S YEAH.
00:28:33MYTHOLOGIZED AS WELL. YEAH.
00:28:35SHE'S MYTHOLOGIZED AS YOU KNOW
00:28:37THE, THE FIRST -- OF NEW YORK
00:28:40CITY RIGHT. THERE'S A WHOLE IN A GOOD WAY
00:28:43THERE'S EXACTLY, THERE'S A WHOLE AGAIN, INTERNET SORT OF LIFE TO
00:28:47THIS STORY OF LUCRETIA.
00:28:50AND THAT I THINK DOES HER OBVIOUSLY A DISSERVICE IN ALL
00:28:54THE WAYS THAT I DESCRIBED AND MAYBE SOME WAYS THAT I WILL TALK
00:28:57ABOUT IN A BIT.
00:28:58BUT YES, SHE'S SEEN AS THE WRONG
00:29:02KIND OF WOMAN IN THE COLONY. RIGHT. OKAY.
00:29:05SO TELL US ABOUT THEIR EXPULSION. RIGHT.
00:29:11SO. IN 1639, ALL OF THESE CASES,
00:29:14SOME OF WHICH WE'VE REFERENCED ALREADY, THEIR FIGHTS WITH THEIR
00:29:18NEIGHBORS, EGREGIOUS FIGHT WITH THE DUTCH REFORMED MINISTER'S
00:29:22WIFE, MEASURING THESE PEOPLE IN
00:29:25HER HOME. ALL OF THIS COMES TO COMES TO A
00:29:31CLIMAX AND THEY ARE EVENTUALLY
00:29:33BANISHED TO THE WILDS OF
00:29:37BROOKLYN. THEY END UP IN WHAT IS TODAY GRAVESEND.
00:29:40SO ACROSS FROM CONEY ISLAND, AND
00:29:43IT'S THERE THAT THEY LIVE LONGER
00:29:46THAN ANYWHERE ELSE, EACH OF THEM IN THEIR LIVES.
00:29:50THEY HAVE A VERY LARGE ESTATE OF
00:29:54SOME 200 ACRES. THEY HAVE ANIMALS, THEY GROW
00:29:57CROPS, INCLUDING PUMPKINS AND
00:29:59OTHER THINGS. BY ALL ACCOUNTS, THEY'RE SOME OF
00:30:03THE FIRST NON-NATIVE PEOPLE TO SETTLE ON LONG ISLAND SOON.
00:30:08ENGLISH WHO HAVE BEEN EXPELLED FROM OR LEAVE OF THEIR OWN
00:30:11ACCOUNTS FROM MASSACHUSETTS END
00:30:14UP COMING TO SETTLE NEAR THEM.
00:30:17BUT THAT'S REALLY WHERE THEY
00:30:20CREATE KIND OF THE THE MOST
00:30:22IMPORTANT PERIOD OF THEIR LIFE. THEY HAVE FOUR DAUGHTERS.
00:30:26THEY LIVE WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS THERE.
00:30:28THEY START ACCRUING WEALTH
00:30:30THROUGH THEIR LAND BY SELLING
00:30:34CROPS, BY OR THROUGH THEIR
00:30:37ANIMALS, AND THEY BECOME THE
00:30:40ELITE OF THAT AREA OF THE COLONY
00:30:44OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME? RIGHT. SO A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF
00:30:47THIS STORY OF HOW THEY GO FROM
00:30:49BEING BANISHED, THE TURK AND THE
00:30:52-- TO LAND GENTRY IN GRAVESEND
00:30:56IS THE LARGEST WAR IN THE COLONIES HISTORY.
00:30:58KEITH'S WAR, WHICH IS THE 1640S
00:31:03THEY SERVE AS A KIND OF ADVANCE
00:31:05GUARD FOR THE MILITARY
00:31:07OPERATIONS THAT THE COLONY UNDERTAKES AGAINST NATIVE
00:31:11PEOPLES IN THIS AREA OF LONG ISLAND. THE COLONY IS INTERESTED IN
00:31:16EXPANDING ACROSS THE WATERS TO LONG ISLAND, AND THEY USED
00:31:20ANTHONY AND HIS FARM AS A KIND
00:31:22OF BASE OF OPERATIONS.
00:31:24AND SO WE HAVE ACCOUNTS OF THE COUNCILS SAYING THAT WE SHOULD SEND ARMS.
00:31:30WE SHOULD SEND SOLDIERS IN. A LOT OF FIGHTING HAPPENED IN
00:31:32AND AROUND THEIR AREA. IT'S IN THIS PERIOD THAT THEY
00:31:38REGISTER THEIR LAND. SO THE VERY FAMOUS DEED IS 1643.
00:31:42THEY ACTUALLY RECEIVE THE LAND
00:31:46IN 1639, BUT DON'T REGISTER IT UNTIL 1643.
00:31:48DURING THE WAR TO MAKE CLAIMS TO
00:31:50THIS TERRITORY WHEN IT'S BEING THREATENED THROUGH THESE HOSTILITIES.
00:31:56SO AFTER THE WAR, THEY'RE NOT
00:31:59UNSCATHED, BUT THEY SURVIVE IN
00:32:01THE WAYS THAT OTHER AREAS DID NOT AND HAVE REALLY PROVEN
00:32:05THEMSELVES AS A KIND OF CENTRAL NODE OF EXPANSION FOR THE COLONY.
00:32:09SO YOU COULD INFER THAT AS A
00:32:11RESULT OF THAT EXPERIENCE, THEY
00:32:13BECAME MORE ACCEPTED, USEFUL,
00:32:19USEFUL, CERTAINLY ACCEPTED IS
00:32:21HARD TO KNOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE
00:32:23FAR FEWER KIND OF DAILY
00:32:26NEIGHBORLY INTERACTIONS THAN THEY DID IN THE MUCH MORE
00:32:29DENSELY POPULATED NEW AMSTERDAM, WHICH WAS NOT THAT DENSELY
00:32:34POPULATED, BUT MORE THAN GRAVESEND IN THIS PERIOD.
00:32:38MOST OF THE FIGHTS THAT THEY HAVE ARE ACTUALLY WITH THESE ENGLISH NEIGHBORS WHO START
00:32:41SETTLING NEAR THEM. AND THAT IS QUITE USEFUL FOR THE
00:32:44DUTCH BECAUSE THE DUTCH DO NOT WANT THE ENGLISH TO BE SO THEN
00:32:47THE DUTCH WANT TO SEE THEM AS DUTCH. YES, EXACTLY.
00:32:51SO THAT THE DUTCH SEE THEM AS VERY USEFUL IN PUSHING AGAINST
00:32:55AGAINST THE ENGLISH AND ANTHONY
00:32:57AND GRETA GO BACK, YOU KNOW,
00:33:01MANY TIMES TO FORT AMSTERDAM IN
00:33:04IN NEW AMSTERDAM TO REGISTER ALL
00:33:07KINDS OF AFFAIRS RATES. SERVES AS A WITNESS FOR
00:33:11BAPTISMS, WHICH IS A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE THAT PEOPLE PLAY. IT MEANS YOU'RE ACCEPTED.
00:33:15EXACTLY. AND THAT MEANS THAT SHE SHE WAS SEEN AS AN UPSTANDING MEMBER OF SOCIETY.
00:33:20SO THE ARC OF GRETA'S LIFE IN
00:33:22SOME WAYS FROM AMSTERDAM
00:33:24DOCKYARDS TO, YOU KNOW, MOONING
00:33:26A SHIP TO BECOMING A KIND OF
00:33:30LANDED ELITE RESPECT AND MEMBER
00:33:33OF SOCIETY THAT PEOPLE WANTED AS A WITNESS AT BAPTISMS IS A REALLY KIND OF REMARKABLE
00:33:37TRANSFORMATION. YEAH. YEAH. SO, I MEAN, THE STORY THAT YOU
00:33:41TELL IT IS THIS NOTION OF TOLERANCE AND INTOLERANCE.
00:33:44I MEAN, YOU HAVE THIS THE REAL
00:33:47WORLD IS NOT THE REAL WORLD IS
00:33:50ONE IN WHICH PEOPLE FEAR THAT
00:33:52WHICH IS UNKNOWN AND OR THAT WHICH IS DIFFERENT.
00:33:56AND AND YOU SEE THAT APPARENTLY IN THE RECORDS.
00:34:00IF IF ANTHONY INDEED LOOKED
00:34:01DIFFERENT THAN HIS HE'S TREATED
00:34:06A CERTAIN WAY.
00:34:08AND SHE HAD HER ISSUES.
00:34:10BUT THEN AS PEOPLE GET USED TO
00:34:12PEOPLE THEY I MEAN THIS THIS IS A STORY THAT PLAYS OUT OVER AND
00:34:16OVER IN NEW YORK'S HISTORY AS WELL AS MAYBE EVERYWHERE ELSE.
00:34:20AND, YOU KNOW, SO WE'RE SEEING
00:34:22THIS WHOLE DEVELOPMENT TAKE PLACE IN THESE TWO PEOPLE.
00:34:26YEAH. AND, YOU KNOW, I DO THINK WE CAN
00:34:28THINK OF ABOUT THEM AS AS A KIND OF QUINTESSENTIALLY IMMIGRANT,
00:34:32NEW YORK KIND OF STORY. THEY COME AND THEY STAY, UNLIKE
00:34:36A LOT OF THE PEOPLE RIGHT. WHO ARE IN NEW NETHERLAND WHO
00:34:40COME FOR A FEW YEARS, TRY TO MAKE SOME MONEY OFF OF FURS AND THEN TAKE OFF.
00:34:43THEY LIVE THERE FOR DECADES. YOU KNOW, ACROSS BASICALLY THE
00:34:47ENTIRE LIFE OF THE COLONY.
00:34:49THEY LIVE PAST 664, BOTH OF THEM.
00:34:52THEY'RE SOME OF THE LONGEST
00:34:54LASTING RESIDENTS OF THE COLONY. AND SO THAT'S WHEN I SAY THAT,
00:34:58YOU KNOW, ANTHONY REALLY SAW HIMSELF AS BELONGING TO NEW NETHERLAND MORE THAN ANYTHING. YEAH. YEAH.
00:35:02AND SHE DIES FIRST.
00:35:04SHE DOES 1669 AND HE REMARRIES. HE REMARRIES.
00:35:08SO ALSO MAYBE A QUINTESSENTIALLY
00:35:11NEW YORK STORY. HE MARRIES A YOUNGER WOMAN 20
00:35:15YEARS. HIS YOUNGER MOVES BACK TO
00:35:19MANHATTAN AND TO BRIDGE STREET
00:35:24AND. LIVES OUT THE REST OF HIS DAYS ON BRIDGE STREET.
00:35:27VERY INTERESTING. LEE, ONE OF THE LAST SOURCES WE
00:35:31HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS A KIND OF
00:35:33A REGISTER OF PROPERTY OWNERS ON BREAD STREET.
00:35:37AND IT REFERS TO HIM AS DUTCH.
00:35:41SO SO THAT'S VERY TELLING.
00:35:43I THINK THAT BY THE END OF HIS
00:35:45LIFE, THIS PERSON WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN FROM SPAIN OR
00:35:49NORTH AFRICA WAS MALIGNED FOR MUCH OF HIS LIFE.
00:35:53IS BANISHED, COMES BACK.
00:35:55THE COLONY IS NO LONGER.
00:35:57BUT HE IS SEEN AS BEING A DUTCH
00:36:02MEMBER OF OF SOCIETY. HMM. WHO DO WE KNOW?
00:36:06WHO WERE THERE WITHIN THIS COLONY? WITHIN THE SETTLEMENT WITHIN NEW
00:36:10AMSTERDAM ENVIRONS? DO WE KNOW WHO WERE THERE? DID THEY HAVE ALLIES?
00:36:13DID THEY HAVE FRIENDS? DID THEIR PARTICULAR FOES?
00:36:18UM, THAT'S A GOOD THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
00:36:20I MEAN, SO THEIR DAUGHTERS MARRY
00:36:23VERY WELL.
00:36:25THEY MARRY DUTCH AND ENGLISH,
00:36:31BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT THEY HAVE FRIENDS. RIGHT?
00:36:35ALL THE NEIGHBORS THEY HAVE SEEM TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM. YEAH.
00:36:38AND YOU KNOW, THE FUN AND THE THING TOO, ABOUT DEALING WITH
00:36:43RECORDS LIKE IF THE WHAT IF WHAT YET IF WHAT YOU HAVE TO RELY ON
00:36:46ARE COURT CASE OR IF YOU GET A SKEWED PICTURE OF SOCIETY
00:36:50BECAUSE IT'S ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO TURN OFF FOR CERTAIN REASONS
00:36:54AND AND MAYBE THOSE PEOPLE ARE
00:36:56BEING SCAPEGOATED.
00:36:58SO THAT COMPLICATES THINGS. YOU CAN'T OR YOU CAN'T TELL.
00:37:02I MEAN, IF THEY'RE SPENDING
00:37:05SUNDAY DINNER WITH SOMEONE THAT'S IT'S NOT WRITTEN DOWN ANYWHERE.
00:37:08RIGHT. AND THEY ARE, AS WE SAID AT THE SORT OF BEGINNING, THEY'RE VERY
00:37:12LITIGIOUS. AND THAT'S THAT'S GOOD FOR A HISTORIAN BECAUSE AS YOU SAY THERE IN THE SOURCES A LOT.
00:37:17YEAH. OKAY.
00:37:17SO IN YOU SPEAK OF THERE THEIR
00:37:23DISPUTATIOUS DAUGHTERS IN WHAT WAY WERE THEIR DAUGHTERS DISPUTATIOUS.
00:37:27YEAH SO THIS IS REALLY GETS US
00:37:30TO THE KIND OF END OF THE STORY.
00:37:32SO AGAIN, NOT AN UNCOMMON THING
00:37:36THAT WE MIGHT THINK OF TODAY.
00:37:39THE DAUGHTERS BATTLE WITH METTA
00:37:44ANTHONY'S SECOND WIFE OVER HIS PROPERTIES.
00:37:46SO HE DOESN'T LEAVE A WILL.
00:37:50BUT ANTHONY AND MATTIA HAVE A WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A PRENUP,
00:37:54SAYING THAT WHOEVER DIES FIRST, THE OTHER WILL INHERIT ALL OF
00:37:58THEIR PROPERTY. SO ANTHONY DISINHERITED HIS
00:38:01DAUGHTERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING
00:38:03THAT I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT. IT'S NOT IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME
00:38:07EXACTLY WHY HE WOULD CHOOSE TO DO THAT.
00:38:10HE DOES GET IN AN ARGUMENT WITH
00:38:14ONE OF HIS SON IN LAWS, AN ENGLISHMAN THAT IS PART OF THIS
00:38:18RIVALRY BETWEEN THE ENGLISH AND
00:38:18THE DUTCH COMMUNITY IN GRAVESEND.
00:38:22SO THAT MIGHT BE PART OF PART OF THE STORY.
00:38:26BUT BUT YEAH, SO THE DAUGHTERS BRING THIS CASE TO COURT.
00:38:29THEY TRY TO GET SOME PROPERTY FROM MATTIA, BUT BECAUSE OF THIS
00:38:34AGREEMENT, THEY ARE THEY ARE DISINHERITED FROM, FROM THE
00:38:38PROPERTIES, BUT IT'S THROUGH THE DAUGHTERS OBVIOUSLY, THAT THEIR
00:38:43DESCENDANTS COME DOWN TO US. SO AGAIN, THERE'S A LOT OF
00:38:48MYTHOLOGY ABOUT WHO IS RELATED TO ANTHONY AND LUCRETIA
00:38:52BASICALLY ANYONE WITH A DUTCH NAME IS THOUGHT TO SOMEHOW HAVE
00:38:55A CONNECTION TO THEM. THE MOST RELIABLE CONNECTIONS WE
00:38:58CAN DRAW ARE THE VANDERBILTS AND
00:39:02PRESIDENT WARREN G. HARDING IS A DESCENDANT OF THEM.
00:39:05SO THIS IS TRULY A NEW YORK STORY. IT'S TRULY A NEW YORK CONTEMPORARY SENSE.
00:39:09YEAH. TOLERANCE TO INTOLERANCE, TO VANDERBILT. YEAH.
00:39:12I MEAN, OKAY, SO.
00:39:17SO THEY'RE BOTH ALIVE AT THE
00:39:20TIME OF THE ENGLISH TAKEOVER.
00:39:23DO WE KNOW WHAT ROLE, IF ANY, THEY PLAY IN THOSE EVENTS?
00:39:27YEAH, IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT THEY PLAYED ANY PARTICULAR ROLE THERE
00:39:31IN GRAVESEND, RIGHT THERE, GRAVESEND WAS WHERE THE ENGLISH
00:39:35WERE, RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT. YEAH.
00:39:37SO LADY MOODY, WHO IS THEIR
00:39:41PRIMARY COMBATANTS SLASH NEIGHBOR.
00:39:45IS PART OF THE ANCHOR OF GRAVESEND.
00:39:48AND RUSSELL JUST WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS.
00:39:50BUT GRAVESEND SERVES. YES.
00:39:52AS YOU SAY, AS A VERY IMPORTANT KIND OF NODE FOR THE ENGLISH TO
00:39:55LAND IN LONG ISLAND. BUT ANTHONY AND RICHARD, THEY
00:39:58DON'T REALLY FROM THE SOURCES, THEY DON'T SEEM TO PLAY A
00:40:02PARTICULAR ROLE. OKAY.
00:40:06SO YOU SKETCHED OUT THIS MYTH OF
00:40:08THE TWO OF THEM AND YOU HAVE
00:40:12JUST PULLED IT APART TO SOME EXTENT.
00:40:17BUT THEN AGAIN, IT KIND OF COMES BACK INTO PLACE BECAUSE MAYBE HE
00:40:21WAS MUSLIM, BUT HE DID WHAT YOU
00:40:23WOULD MIGHT LOGICALLY DO IN A PLACE WHERE YOU NEED TO FIT IN
00:40:27TO SURVIVE.
00:40:29AND SHE INDEED HAD BEEN A PROSTITUTE.
00:40:35BUT AND YOU'VE GIVEN A YOU'VE
00:40:39GIVEN A KIND OF FLESH AND BLOOD TO NOBODY JUST SAYS, I WANT TO
00:40:42BE A PROSTITUTE. THINGS HAPPEN IN YOUR IN YOUR
00:40:45YOU END UP TRAGICALLY FALLING
00:40:48INTO A CERTAIN SITUATIONS. SO YOU'VE SKETCHED THAT OUT AND
00:40:52YET TO ME THESE MYTHS KIND OF I MEAN THERE'S SOME SUBSTANCE TO
00:40:56THEM AS WELL.
00:40:58FEEL FREE TO ARGUE AGAINST ME.
00:41:03YEAH, WELL, I WOULD MAYBE SAY A
00:41:08COUPLE OF THINGS.
00:41:11ONE IS IF INDEED A CREATURE WAS
00:41:15A SEX WORKER AT ONE POINT IN HER LIFE, THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE
00:41:20SUMMATION OF HER IDENTITY. SHE DID MANY THINGS IN HER LIFE
00:41:24AND THE MYTH OF ANTHONY AS MUSLIM IS IMPORTANT.
00:41:28I INITIALLY ENTERED THIS WORK
00:41:33WANTING THERE TO BE A MUSLIM IN
00:41:35NEW YORK CITY AND THE 17TH CENTURY TO TELL THAT BECAUSE
00:41:39THIS IS YOUR YOUR FIELD, RIGHT? SO I BEGAN MY LIFE AS A
00:41:41HISTORIAN OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
00:41:44AND WHEN I HEARD OF THIS STORY OF THIS FIRST MUSLIM OF NEW YORK
00:41:47CITY, I WAS VERY INTRIGUED. AND I SORT OF REALLY WANTED
00:41:51ANTHONY TO BE MUSLIM AT SOME POINT. BUT I THINK ANY SERIOUS READING
00:41:53OF THE SOURCES THROWS THAT INTO
00:41:57DEEP DOUBT. HMM.
00:41:59BUT THE IMAGE OF ISLAM WAS
00:42:01PRESENT IN NEW NETHERLAND, RIGHT? THE WAY THEY TALKED ABOUT HIM
00:42:06AND THE WAY THEY DISPARAGED HIM IN THE TERMS THAT THEY USED
00:42:08WRITE, CALLING HIM A TURK, A
00:42:12MUHAMMAD, IN SAYING HE WAS FROM NORTH AFRICA.
00:42:14SO ISLAM WAS PRESENT IN NEW
00:42:18NETHERLAND. I JUST THINK IT'S HARD TO CALL
00:42:22ANTHONY AS A NORMATIVE OF WHAT WE MIGHT THINK OF AS A BELIEVING
00:42:26MUSLIM PERSON. SURE. OKAY.
00:42:29AND IN CRETE AND HER MYTH VERSUS.
00:42:33YEAH, I THINK I MEAN, ONE I THINK, AS I SAID BEFORE, THE ARC
00:42:37OF HER LIFE IS IN SOME WAYS MUCH
00:42:41MORE INTERESTING AND MOVES MUCH
00:42:45FURTHER THAN ANTHONY'S FROM VESSEL TO AMSTERDAM.
00:42:49THIS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT
00:42:53CIRCUMSTANCES IN AMSTERDAM BEING
00:42:56IMPUGNED IN THE COLONY TO BECOMING THIS KIND OF RESPECTED
00:42:59MEMBER OF SOCIETY, MARRYING OFF
00:43:03HER DAUGHTERS VERY WELL.
00:43:05I THINK WE SHOULD SEE HER AS.
00:43:08A 17TH CENTURY WOMAN WHO DIDN'T
00:43:11GIVE IN TO HER SOCIETY. RIGHT.
00:43:13SHE WASN'T A WOMAN IN SALEM. YEAH.
00:43:17YEAH, RIGHT. SHE WASN'T HESTER PRYNNE. SHE WAS SOMEONE WHO PUNCHED
00:43:21BACK. RIGHT. AND THE IMAGE OF HER MOONING
00:43:23THOSE PEOPLE WHO INSULTED HER, I THINK, IS THE IMAGE WE SHOULD
00:43:26HAVE OF HER IN OUR HEADS. RIGHT. OF SOMEONE WHO'S NOT GOING TO
00:43:30TAKE IT. YEAH. YEAH. AND THEN. AND SHE OVER AND OVER WHEN SHE
00:43:33APPEARS IN THE RECORDS, THERE'S A KIND OF DEFIANCE. YES. YEAH. YEAH.
00:43:36WHICH IS A YOU KNOW, A MUCH
00:43:38DIFFERENT STORY THAN, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST -- OF NEW YORK CITY.
00:43:41YEAH, THAT'S INTERESTING. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY. THAT SHE'S DEFIANT THROUGHOUT,
00:43:44AND HE ESPECIALLY IF HE, IN FACT, SOMEWHERE IN HIS PAST
00:43:48ORIGINALLY WAS MUSLIM, HE'S THE OPPOSITE. HE WANTS TO FIT IN. HE WANTS TO.
00:43:53THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH, HE WANTS. HE WANTS TO GET ALONG. YEAH. YEAH. I MEAN IN COUPLES ARE LIKE THAT.
00:43:57YOU NO ONE IS MORE YOU KNOW YOU COULD SEE THEM ARGUING ABOUT THESE THINGS. OKAY.
00:44:02QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE.
00:44:04DESPITE THE OTHERING, WAS THERE SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT NEW
00:44:08AMSTERDAM THAT ALLOWED THEIR
00:44:10FAMILIES EVENTUAL SUCCESS.
00:44:15YEAH, THAT'S THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
00:44:18I MEAN, I THINK THE KIND OF
00:44:22OPENNESS OF OF NEW AMSTERDAM,
00:44:23RIGHT, THAT EVERYTHING WAS KIND
00:44:26OF UP FOR GRABS IN SOME WAYS BECAUSE IT'S SO SMALL AND SO
00:44:29KIND OF LIMINAL, RIGHT? I MEAN, FROM FROM THE DUTCH
00:44:34PERSPECTIVE, FOR FOR THE DUTCH
00:44:36EMPIRE, THE THE INDIES IS REALLY
00:44:40THE, THE THE THE JEWEL OF THE CROWN, RIGHT?
00:44:43THE ATLANTIC WORLD IS SECONDARY
00:44:46AND EVEN IN THE ATLANTIC WORLD, YOU KNOW, BRAZIL IS REALLY THE
00:44:49HEART OF IT. AND NEW AMSTERDAM IS JUST A KIND OF THROWAWAY, RIGHT?
00:44:54COMPLETELY IGNORABLE.
00:44:56AND SO IF ONE YOU KNOW, IT WAS
00:45:01AN IT WAS IT WAS A PLACE WHERE ONE IF ONE REALLY TRIED, ONE CAN
00:45:03KIND OF MAKE IT RIGHT BECAUSE NOTHING WAS HOLDING THEM BACK.
00:45:09THERE WAS A KIND OF WILD WEST ASPECT. THERE WAS A KIND OF WILD WEST
00:45:13OPENNESS TO IT.
00:45:15AND NEVERTHELESS, YOU'RE A PART OF ALL OF THIS KIND OF
00:45:19COMMERCIAL. THE COMMERCIAL WORLD THAT IS THE DUTCH EMPIRE.
00:45:23SO THAT MIGHT BE PART OF THE REASON.
00:45:26SO THERE WAS OPPORTUNITY THAT THINGS WEREN'T AS FIXED AS THEY
00:45:30MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN. THAT'S RIGHT. AND ALSO AND ALSO, WE SHOULD SAY
00:45:34THAT DUTCH LAW IN THE COLONY WAS
00:45:38EQUANIMITY. IS RIGHT.
00:45:40IT PROVIDED OPPORTUNE CITY IN
00:45:43WAYS THAT FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE ENGLISH COLONIES DIDN'T EXIST.
00:45:47RIGHT. TO THE EXTENT THAT ENSLAVED
00:45:49PEOPLE COULD USE THE COURTS OF
00:45:51OF NEW AMSTERDAM AND OFTEN WON
00:45:54AGAINST FREE PEOPLE. YEAH.
00:45:57SO IT'S BOTH MORE OPEN AND ALSO HAS A KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE OF
00:46:00OF LAW AND OF OF OF KIND OF
00:46:04SOCIAL MORES. NO, THIS IS A CLARIFICATION. THEY'RE ASKING FOR BECAUSE I
00:46:08THINK MAYBE I WE JUMPED OVER TOO QUICKLY.
00:46:12IS THERE NO RECORD LINKING ANTHONY TO YANN JOHNSON AND IS
00:46:16THERE NO RECORD OF ANTHONY'S PARENTAGE?
00:46:18E RIGHT. SO THERE IS NO SOURCE LINKING
00:46:22ANTHONY TO YOUNG JOHNSON. OKAY.
00:46:25THAT IS THE SO IN THE 19TH
00:46:28CENTURY, TUNIS BIRKIN, WHO IS A
00:46:30VERY FAMOUS NEW YORK CHARACTER
00:46:32WHO SERVED IN CONGRESS, FOUNDED THE LONG ISLAND HISTORICAL
00:46:36SOCIETY, WHAT IS TODAY THE CENTER FOR BROOKLYN HISTORY.
00:46:41READS THE 17TH CENTURY DUTCH
00:46:43SOURCE ABOUT THESE DUTCH
00:46:46CONVERTS TO ISLAM IN IN MOROCCO.
00:46:51THAT SPEAKS ABOUT JOHN JOHNSON AND THAT SOURCE SAYS NOTHING
00:46:56ABOUT JOHN HAVING A SON NAMED ANTHONY.
00:47:00SO THERE'S NO SOURCE LINKING JOHN TO ANTHONY. IN THE BOOK. I GO THROUGH A LOT OF DETAIL TO
00:47:05SHOW HOW IT'S PROBABLY
00:47:06IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BE THE SON
00:47:09OF JOHN JOHNSON AS THE FIRST SOURCE.
00:47:11WE HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE.
00:47:15IF WE BELIEVE WHAT ANTHONY'S SAYS IN THE MARRIAGE
00:47:19CERTIFICATE, HE WAS 22.
00:47:22IN 1629, WHICH MEANS HE WAS BORN IN 1606 OR 1607.
00:47:27JOHN WAS NOT EVEN CAPTURED BY NORTH AFRICAN PIRATES UNTIL 1618
00:47:31AND IS STILL IN HARLEM. HE'S FROM HARLEM IN THE
00:47:35NETHERLANDS, HAVING CHILDREN. HE'S MARRIED IN THE NETHERLANDS
00:47:39AND HAS FOUR DAUGHTERS THERE. SO AGAIN, IF WE BELIEVE ANTHONY
00:47:43IN THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE, THE DATES DON'T WORK FOR HIM TO BE
00:47:46THE SON OF OF JOHN IN THE
00:47:48MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. ANTHONY ALSO SAYS THAT HIS
00:47:51PARENTS ARE DECEASED. SO THAT'S THE ONLY THING WE KNOW
00:47:56ABOUT HIS PARENTAGE. OKAY.
00:47:59DO WE HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THEIR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, HOW HOW THEY MAY
00:48:03HAVE AIDED ONE ANOTHER IN ACHIEVING THEIR SUCCESS?
00:48:07VERY GOOD QUESTION.
00:48:08AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE A DIARY OR
00:48:12LETTERS OR A TRANSCRIPT OF A CONVERSATION.
00:48:15THEY MAY HAVE HAD. BUT, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS QUESTION.
00:48:18OF COURSE, BECAUSE THAT
00:48:22RELATIONSHIP IS REALLY THE CENTER OF THIS BOOK AND IT WAS
00:48:25THE CENTER OF THEIR LIVES FOR
00:48:28FOR EACH OF THEM. SO ONE OF THE WAYS I THOUGHT
00:48:32ABOUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT LANGUAGE DID THEY SPEAK? DID THEY SPEAK?
00:48:36SO SHE PROBABLY SPOKE DUTCH. IN AMSTERDAM.
00:48:40HE PROBABLY DIDN'T.
00:48:42IF HE WAS FROM CARTAGENA OR IF
00:48:44HE WAS FROM MOROCCO, DID THEY
00:48:49COMMUNICATE IN SOME KIND OF, YOU
00:48:51KNOW, DOCKYARD CREOLE OF LANGUAGES FROM THE
00:48:55MEDITERRANEAN? UNCLEAR. I THINK ONCE THEY WERE HERE,
00:48:58ONCE THEY WERE IN NEW NETHERLAND, ANTHONY LEARNED
00:49:03DUTCH YEAH, NO DOUBT WAS ONE OF
00:49:06THE MAIN REASONS FOR THAT.
00:49:08BUT BY ALL ACCOUNTS THEY HAD A
00:49:12SUPPORTIVE AND WORKABLE
00:49:16RELATIONSHIP. ALAN I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
00:49:19MAYBE YOU COVERED THIS IN THE BOOK, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WENT BACK AND FORTH. YEP.
00:49:23DID DO WE HAVE ANY RECORD OF THEM DOING? NO. NO.
00:49:27INTERESTING. EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND THEY CAME AND THEY STAYED AND THAT'S
00:49:31INTERESTING. YEAH. YEAH. AND THEY REALLY KIND OF HAD EACH OTHER THEN. THAT'S RIGHT.
00:49:35YEAH. THEY HAD EACH OTHER.
00:49:37THEY, THEY CONDUCTED BUSINESS WITH AMSTERDAM.
00:49:40SO FOR INSTANCE, THEY CONTRACTED FOR LABOR TO BE SENT FROM
00:49:46AMSTERDAM TO THEIR FARM IN GRAVESEND.
00:49:48ANOTHER SIGN OF HOW LARGE AND AND PRODUCTIVE THEIR FARM WAS.
00:49:52THAT THEY WERE CONTRACTING LABOR ACROSS THE OCEAN TO COME WORK THERE. YEAH.
00:49:56YEAH. WHAT WAS THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LINEUP?
00:50:00YEAH. SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY DIRECT
00:50:05EVIDENCE OF THEIR INTERACTIONS,
00:50:05BUT THEY, YOU KNOW, FOUGHT THEM
00:50:09DURING KEITH'S WAR, RIGHT?
00:50:13I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR
00:50:15US TO CONSIDER THEM TO BE
00:50:20COLONISTS IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, RIGHT. AS HARROWING AS THEIR LIVES
00:50:23WERE, AS IMPUGN AND AND
00:50:28DENIGRATED AND BANISHED AS THEY
00:50:30WERE, NEVERTHELESS, THEY WERE
00:50:33PART OF A SYSTEM THAT WAS TAKING
00:50:35LAND FROM NATIVE PEOPLES AND WE
00:50:38HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND ALWAYS.
00:50:40I THINK EVEN IF WE SEE A TREATY
00:50:44AS A KIND OF HERO, AS A DEFIANT WOMAN, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO HOLD
00:50:47ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER. AND I THINK THAT'S FINE. I MEAN, THAT'S HISTORY.
00:50:51IT'S COMPLICATED. PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED AND THEY CAN HAVE MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE
00:50:55IDENTITIES AND ROLES. SO IT WAS, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT
00:50:59SAY, CONTENTIOUS AT BEST.
00:51:02IT WAS SIMILAR TO OTHER COLONISTS RELATIONSHIP TO THE
00:51:05LAND, BUT THEY WERE NOT TRAITORS IN ANY GREAT EXTENT.
00:51:08THEY WEREN'T VERY INVOLVED IN
00:51:09THE FUR TRADE AS FAR AS WE KNOW.
00:51:14THERE'S ONE INSTANCE OF ANTHONY
00:51:16AND KURITA BEING INVOLVED WITH
00:51:20ONE OF THE ENSLAVED AFRICANS IN THE COLONY.
00:51:22AND AGAIN, THIS IS ONE OF THE DISPUTES THAT COMES TO A COURT.
00:51:28ANTHONY AND FREITAS DOG IS
00:51:31ACCUSED BY A MAN CONFUSINGLY KNOWN AS ANTHONY OF THE
00:51:35PORTUGUESE, IS AN ENSLAVED MAN.
00:51:37ANTHONY THE TURKS DOG, IS
00:51:39ACCUSED OF KILLING ANTHONY OF THE PORTUGUESE IS HOG.
00:51:43AND SO THIS CASE COMES TO COURT
00:51:45AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTHONY, THE PORTUGUESE, THE
00:51:48ENSLAVED PERSON WINNING IN COURT
00:51:50AGAINST ANTHONY.
00:51:53DO YOU CONSIDER THEM TO BE THE FIRST TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN
00:51:59DREAM. SO, YOU KNOW, FOUNDING IS IN THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK.
00:52:03SO PERHAPS A LITTLE CHEEKILY, BUT I DO WANT TO MAKE A CLAIM
00:52:07THAT MAYBE NOT AMERICA AS A WHOLE, BUT IF WE'RE THINKING
00:52:12ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE PLACE THAT BECOMES THE FIVE BOROUGHS, NEW
00:52:15YORK CITY, ANTHONY AND RICHARD,
00:52:19DO YOU HAVE A CLAIM OF BEING ONE OF THE FOUNDING FAMILIES OF NEW
00:52:22YORK CITY? SURE. AND, YOU KNOW, THIS QUESTION OF
00:52:27ISLAM AND OF BEING MUSLIM. YEAH. AND WE NOW HAVE A MUSLIM MAYOR.
00:52:30WE DO BRING US THAT. HOW DOES THAT CARRY FORWARD? YEAH, I'M IN PERFECT, PERFECT
00:52:35TIMING FOR MY BOOK.
00:52:37I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS BOOK FOR ABOUT A DECADE, SO I HAD NO
00:52:40WAY OF KNOWING THAT THIS IS THE CASE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THERE
00:52:44ARE SOME ECHOES. I DON'T WANT TO DRAW TOO FIRM A LINE BETWEEN THE 17TH CENTURY
00:52:48AND AND TODAY THERE'S OBVIOUSLY
00:52:50THE IMMIGRANT STORY OF MAYOR
00:52:53MAMDANI AND ANTHONY AND RITA OF
00:52:57OF SORT OF WE MIGHT CALL THEM
00:53:00NEW KINDS OF IMMIGRANTS OR.
00:53:03IMMIGRANTS THAT THE THE STORY OF
00:53:08AMERICA HAS YET TO FULLY METABOLIZE. I THINK IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY.
00:53:11SO I'M INTERESTED IN ANTHONY IS WRITTEN THAT WAY ALSO RIGHT THAT
00:53:15THEY'RE NOT WHOLLY EUROPEAN.
00:53:19THEY'RE NOT ENSLAVED AFRICANS AND THEY'RE NOT NATIVE PEOPLES. RIGHT.
00:53:23THERE'S THERE'S SOMEHOW IN A KIND OF DIFFERENT CATEGORY, DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE USUALLY
00:53:27THINK ABOUT IN COLONIAL AMERICA, ENSLAVED AFRICANS, NATIVE
00:53:32PEOPLES AND EUROPEANS. YEAH.
00:53:34SO WE MIGHT SAY, YOU KNOW, MAYOR
00:53:36MAMDANI SORT OF REPRESENTS NEW
00:53:39ISH IMMIGRANTS TO NEW YORK CITY,
00:53:42SOUTH ASIANS, AIR AFRICANS, WHO
00:53:47ARE THE LATEST GROUP TO KIND OF
00:53:49BECOME FULLY METABOLIZED IN A
00:53:52WAY THAT ITALIANS AND IRISH AND
00:53:54-- WERE IN THERE IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY.
00:53:57SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S LIKE LAGUARDIA IN THAT SENSE.
00:53:59SO IT'S THIS IS A STORY THAT PLAYS OUT OVER. YEAH, YEAH.
00:54:02AND THEY WERE ARGUABLY THE FIRST. THEY WERE ARGUABLY THE FIRST.
00:54:06THERE'S ALSO WE MIGHT THINK IN THE WAY THAT I WAS SPEAKING
00:54:09ABOUT WE WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, TOLERATION
00:54:13FOR AND AGAINST, YOU KNOW, MAYOR MAMDANI ALSO HAS THAT KIND OF
00:54:17SIMILAR DYNAMIC. WE COULD SEE HIM AS A SYMBOL OF HOW FAR NEW YORK CITY HAS COME.
00:54:22RIGHT. AS A WELCOMING PLACE, AS A DIVERSE PLACE, AS A PLACE WHERE
00:54:25ANYONE BASED ON THEIR ABILITIES CAN MAKE IT.
00:54:29AND WE COULD ALSO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, HE'S BEEN SUBJECT TO ALL
00:54:31KINDS OF WHILE, YOU KNOW,
00:54:35RACIST, ANTI MUSLIM RHETORIC IN
00:54:37THE CAMPAIGN AND SENSE.
00:54:40AND SO THAT SHOWS US KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH WORK WE HAVE YET TO DO.
00:54:44YEAH, THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF QUESTION. AND I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE
00:54:47ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THIS. COULD YOU DISCUSS GENEALOGICAL
00:54:51VERSUS HISTORIC RESEARCH?
00:54:54YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
00:54:58I DIPPED INTO GENIUS OLOGY IN
00:55:01THIS WORK AND ACTUALLY WORKED
00:55:03WITH A VERY EXCELLENT
00:55:06GENEALOGIST IN THE NETHERLANDS WHO HELPED ME WITH SOME OF THE
00:55:10RESEARCH. SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T DO ANY SORT
00:55:13OF DNA, DNA ANALYSIS OF, OF
00:55:16DESCENDANTS AS PART OF THE RESEARCH FOR THIS BOOK.
00:55:20I'M INTERESTED IN THAT. I THINK THERE ARE, AS WITH ANY
00:55:25SOURCE MATERIAL, THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH WITH WITH THAT AS
00:55:27THERE ARE WITH WRITTEN DOCUMENTS.
00:55:30SO I DIDN'T GO DOWN THAT THAT
00:55:33ROUTE TOO DEEPLY. BUT GENEALOGY IS IS VERY, VERY
00:55:37IMPORTANT FOR TELLING THIS STORY. SO I'M INTERESTED IN HOW
00:55:42DESCENDANTS WILL REACT TO THIS BOOK. AND I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN IN TOUCH
00:55:46WITH WITH SEVERAL OF THEM BEFORE THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED AND SINCE
00:55:50ACTUALLY SO I THINK HISTORY AND
00:55:53GENEALOGY ARE OUR COUSINS AND AS
00:55:57A CARD CARRYING HISTORIAN, I
00:56:00STAND TO LEARN A LOT FROM GENEALOGY. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, VICE VERSA.
00:56:05HMM. YOU YOU CAN GET OUT OF THIS BY
00:56:09SAYING YOU ALREADY ANSWERED IT. OKAY, BUT DO YOU SEE REMNANTS OF
00:56:13THIS ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT IN CURRENT NEW YORK?
00:56:17YEAH, I MEAN, I DID IN SOME WAYS ANSWER THAT.
00:56:20BUT BUT BUT I DO THINK THAT THAT
00:56:23IS A LINE THAT WE CAN DRAW FROM
00:56:25FROM THIS PERIOD, FROM THE FIRST
00:56:28HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY THROUGH TO TO TODAY.
00:56:33NOT A STRAIGHT LINE ZIGZAGS
00:56:35DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT PERIODS, BUT THERE IS A STORY TO BE TOLD.
00:56:39THERE FROM ANTHONY'S PERIOD TO TODAY. YEAH.
00:56:43AND THE NOTION PUT THEM CAN YOU
00:56:46PUT THEM IN THE NOTION, CAN YOU
00:56:48PUT THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
00:56:50DUTCH COLONY AS A WHOLE AND WHAT
00:56:54EITHER IN MYTH OR IN TRUTH, WHAT
00:56:56IT THE PLACE THAT IT SERVES AS A
00:57:01SPRINGBOARD FOR NEW YORK? YEAH.
00:57:05I MEAN, I THINK YOU KNOW IT SO
00:57:09IT IS THE CASE THAT NEW NETHERLAND WAS A PLACE OF
00:57:14DIVERSITY, RIGHT? A PLACE WHERE YOU HAD PEOPLE
00:57:17COMING FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF EUROPE.
00:57:20YOU HAD ENSLAVED AFRICANS, YOU HAVE NATIVE PEOPLES, YOU HAVE
00:57:22PEOPLE LIKE ANTHONY, A CREATURE. SO IT WAS DIVERSE.
00:57:26IT WAS MULTIRELIGIOUS WITH ALL ITS PROBLEMS, RIGHT?
00:57:28-- ARRIVE IN 1654 FROM BRAZIL,
00:57:32QUAKERS, AS YOU MENTIONED. RIGHT? SO WE HAVE RELIGIOUS DIVERSITY.
00:57:36IT IS A KIND OF PROTO CAPITALIST
00:57:40PLACE IN THE WAY THAT THE DUTCH
00:57:43COMPANY SYSTEM WAS.
00:57:45SO THERE ARE ALL THOSE THREADS
00:57:48PRESENT THERE IN NEW AMSTERDAM
00:57:53BEFORE IT BECOMES NEW YORK CITY. AND AS A PART OF THAT IS THE
00:57:57STORY OF THE COUPLE, RIGHT, THAT
00:57:59THEY ARE AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK
00:58:03ABOUT THE FOUNDING OF NEW YORK CITY IN A WAY THAT THAT, YOU
00:58:06KNOW, ENGAGES WITH THAT STORY OF
00:58:08DIVERSITY, BUT ALSO CHALLENGES IT IN SOME KINDS OF WAYS AND
00:58:11ALSO GIVES US A KIND OF VIEW FROM THE EDGE, RIGHT?
00:58:15BOTH THE ACTUAL EDGE FROM
00:58:18GRAVESEND AND THE KIND OF, YOU
00:58:20KNOW, ETHNIC, RELIGIOUS, MORAL
00:58:22EDGE OF THE COLONY. AND I THINK HELPS US TO THINK
00:58:26ABOUT NEW YORK, NOT JUST AS A
00:58:28PLACE OF CAPITALISTS AND OF
00:58:31CHRISTIANS AND OF, YOU KNOW, DUTCH REFORMED INSTITUTIONS AND
00:58:35OF THE LAW, BUT ALSO A PLACE OF
00:58:38THESE KIND OF RABBLE ROUSERS AND
00:58:41AND KIND OF OTHER FIGURES THAT
00:58:43WE DON'T USUALLY THINK ABOUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF NEW YORK.
00:58:47THE AUTHOR IS ALAN MCHALE, THE
00:58:49BOOK A REALLY TERRIFIC BOOK IS
00:58:51CALLED NEWCOMERS THE STORY OF ANTHONY AND CREATURE AND THE
00:58:55FOUNDING OF NEW YORK. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, RUSSELL.
00:58:57THANK YOU ALL.
00:59:02THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
00:59:06I'M GOING TO ASK YOU FOR ONE MORE ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR OUR FABULOUS MODERATOR, RUSSELL
00:59:12MACHADO.
00:59:16HERE'S A PORTION OF A RECENT PROGRAM ON BOOK TV.
00:59:19THE THING TO REMEMBER ABOUT ANY REGIME, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT'S
00:59:22GOT MILITARY AND POLICE FORCES, THEY BECOME TARGETS.
00:59:26THEY BECOME NATURAL TARGETS. THEY ARE ALSO FATHERS.
00:59:29THEY ARE BROTHERS. THEY ARE SISTERS.
00:59:32AND SO EVERY TIME YOU TARGET WHAT YOU THINK IS A LEGITIMATE
00:59:35TARGET AND IT IS YOU'RE ALSO
00:59:38TARGETING PART OF THE POPULATION.
00:59:41AND THE REALITY IS, THESE WARS BECOME VERY PERSONAL.
00:59:45YOU START A WAR FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
00:59:47AND THEN PRETTY SOON SOMEBODY
00:59:50KILLS YOUR COMRADE OR SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY. AND IT GETS A DIFFERENT
00:59:55INTENSITY FOR YOU. AND I THINK THAT HAPPENS WITH SOCIETIES AS WELL.
01:00:00SO WHEN WE BEGIN AND WE THINK THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A BAD
01:00:04GUY AND PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE HIM, SO WE TOPPLED THE SADDAM HUSSEIN
01:00:07REGIME AND WE THOUGHT THAT AUTOMATICALLY THAT THAT WOULD BE
01:00:11POPULAR BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD BE LIBERATED.
01:00:14WELL, WHAT HAPPENED WAS MANY OF THEM LOST THEIR POSITIONS. SOME WAY DOWN IN THE GOVERNMENT,
01:00:18THEY LOST THEIR PENSIONS. THE ELECTRICITY WENT OUT WITHIN
01:00:23WEEKS. THE LIBERATORS THAT WE THOUGHT
01:00:25WE WERE WERE PERCEIVED AS
01:00:29FOREIGN OCCUPIERS.
01:00:31AND PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY DIDN'T LIKE SADDAM.
01:00:34SO SADDAM HUSSEIN AT ALL WERE PICKING UP ROCKET PROPELLED
01:00:38GRENADES AND SHOOTING AT AMERICANS.
01:00:41AND THEN AS YOU STARTED THE VIOLENCE BETWEEN THAT, IT GETS
01:00:45ITS OWN MOMENTUM. SO THAT'S WHAT GETS SO
01:00:49COMPLICATED. IT'S AT THE END OF THE DAY, A NATION IS THE FABRIC OF THE PEOPLE.
01:00:53IT'S NOT A THING ON A MAP AND IT'S NOT A SYMBOL OF A GOVERNMENT.
01:00:57YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF THIS