Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00VIRGINIA DEMOCRAT, A CONGRESSMAN, SUHA SUBRAMANIAM
00:00:05AND I EXPERTS DISCUSS THE SECURITY RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH
00:00:08ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. HE ALSO TALKS ABOUT THE
00:00:11BIPARTISAN BILL HE INTRODUCED WITH CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN JAY OBER NULTY,
00:00:16WHICH WOULD ESTABLISH FEDERAL OVERSIGHT OF THOSE WHO DEVELOP
00:00:19ADVANCED A.I. SYSTEMS. THE CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND
00:00:23INTERNATIONAL STUDIES HOSTED THE EVENT.
00:00:57ALL RIGHT. WE'LL GET STARTED. HELLO, EVERYONE.
00:01:00MY NAME IS OLEG MARTHA AND I'M THE DIRECTOR OF THE WADHWANI
00:01:04CENTER HERE AT CSIS. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
00:01:07AND THE INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND A.I. TODAY FOR TODAY'S EVENT.
00:01:11WE'RE THRILLED THAT SO MANY OF YOU COULD MAKE IT BOTH ONLINE
00:01:15AND IN PERSON, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF VACATION SEASON.
00:01:17SO OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS,
00:01:21EVER SINCE THE RELEASE OF CHAI TEA AND MODELS HAS MARCHED
00:01:25STEADILY UPWARD IN CYBER CAPABILITY IN CODING ABILITY,
00:01:28TIME HORIZON, AGENDA CAPABILITIES, VULNERABILITY
00:01:31DETECTION AND MORE. THAT HAS CULMINATED IN THE
00:01:34EVENTS THAT HAVE BROUGHT US HERE TODAY.
00:01:36MULTIPLE INCIDENTS IN WHICH
00:01:38CYBER AGENTS, AUTONOMOUS THE
00:01:41ESCAPE THEIR SANDBOXES FOUND THEIR WAY TO THE OPEN INTERNET AND HACKED THIRD PARTY
00:01:46ORGANIZATIONS TO OPEN THEIR MODELS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR BREACHING HACKING FACES,
00:01:51INFRASTRUCTURE. THE MODELS DID THIS BECAUSE THEY SUSPECTED HUGGING FACE HAD THE
00:01:55ANSWER KEY TO THE TEST THAT THEY WERE PERFORMING.
00:01:57SOON AFTER, BOTH AND TROPIC AND
00:02:00METTA SAID THAT THEY HAD MODELS UNDER TESTING THAT ESCAPED
00:02:04CONTAINMENT VIA A MISCONFIGURED EVALUATION ENVIRONMENT OPERATED
00:02:08BY A VENDOR. SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS HAVE
00:02:12LONG BEEN WRITING STORIES ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCES ESCAPING THEIR SHACKLES.
00:02:16A.I. RESEARCHERS HAVE THEORIZED
00:02:18ABOUT ROGUE AGENTS. THIS IS NO LONGER FICTION OR
00:02:22THEORY, HOWEVER. AGENTS ARE NOW ACTING
00:02:24AUTONOMOUSLY AND CAUSING REAL WORLD HARM.
00:02:27THIS RAISES SERIOUS QUESTIONS BOTH ABOUT HOW FRONTIER A.I.
00:02:31LABS ARE HANDLING SAFETY AND ABOUT HOW GOVERNMENT SHOULD
00:02:35OVERSEE SUCH POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY. TO HELP ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS,
00:02:39WE HAVE ASSEMBLED A GREAT LINEUP OF EXPERTS TODAY.
00:02:41WE WILL HEAR HEAR FROM HUGGING FACES. IAN REYNOLDS ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT
00:02:45HAPPENED DURING THE HACK AND HOW
00:02:48THE COMPANY RESPONDED.
00:02:50WE'LL HEAR FROM HELEN TONER OF THE CENTER FOR SECURITY AND
00:02:52EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, THE INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND ISE,
00:02:56MACKENZIE ARNOLD AND MATT PEARL,
00:02:58DIRECTOR OF THE STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM HERE AT
00:03:02CSIS, ABOUT WHAT POLICY MAKERS SHOULD BE DOING IN RESPONSE.
00:03:05MCKENZIE AND I HAVE BOTH WRITTEN REPORTS ABOUT THIS ISSUE, WHICH
00:03:09I HOPE YOU'LL CHECK OUT. BUT FIRST, IT'S MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE REPRESENTATIVE SUHAS
00:03:14SUBRAMANIAM OF VIRGINIA'S 10TH DISTRICT, WHO WILL BE JOINING US VIRTUALLY.
00:03:18I FIRST MET REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAN IN 2015 WHEN WE WERE
00:03:22BOTH WORKING ON TECHNOLOGY
00:03:25POLICY AT THE WHITE HOUSE. SINCE THEN, HE HAS CONTINUED TO
00:03:28BE A THOUGHT LEADER ON TECHNOLOGY ISSUES. FIRST IN THE VIRGINIA HOUSE AND
00:03:32SENATE AND NOW IN CONGRESS, WHERE HE SERVES ON THE COMMITTEE
00:03:35ON SCIENCE, SPACE AND TECHNOLOGY AND THE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
00:03:39AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, AMONG OTHERS. IN A RECENT LETTER TO OPEN AIR
00:03:43CEO SAM ALTMAN, REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAM AND OTHER LAWMAKERS
00:03:47FLAGGED A NUMBER OF UNANSWERED
00:03:49QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OPEN AIR HUGGING FACE INCIDENT.
00:03:53REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. AND WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO
00:03:56HEARING WHAT YOU SAY. HI, EVERYONE.
00:04:00THANKS FOR HAVING ME TODAY. THANKS FOR JOINING. I'M SORRY I CAN'T BE THERE IN
00:04:04PERSON, BUT I APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME.
00:04:08I I'M VERY THIS IS MY FIRST TERM
00:04:10IN CONGRESS AND IT'S BEEN A VERY EVENTFUL CONGRESS.
00:04:13AND YOU KNOW WHAT'S IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW.
00:04:16CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, WARS ABROAD
00:04:18AND IMMIGRATION AND THE HIGHER COSTS.
00:04:22BUT THERE'S A LOT GOING ON. BUT A.I. HAS BEEN A PART OF THE
00:04:27CONVERSATION, AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND AND
00:04:29REALIZE BOTH AIR IS AND TO WHAT
00:04:34ARE THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF IT, ESPECIALLY THE NEGATIVE
00:04:38CONSEQUENCES OF IT. AND THIS IS A CHANGE FROM TEN YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS WORKING ON
00:04:41A POLICY AT THE WHITE HOUSE. A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
00:04:45WHAT I REALLY WAS AND DIDN'T QUITE KNOW HOW IT WORKED.
00:04:48AND NOW I THINK WE HAVE THAT LEVEL OF AWARENESS, BUT IT'S
00:04:51STOKING A LOT OF FEAR AND CONCERN. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE HUG AND
00:04:55FACE INCIDENT IS ONE. AND YOU KNOW, METALS IS ANOTHER.
00:05:00AND I, I THINK I WAS REFERRED TO
00:05:02AS A THOUGHT LEADER IN THE SPACE. I LIKE TO THINK OF MYSELF AS A THOUGHT DOER.
00:05:07AND I ONE OF MY FRUSTRATIONS HAS BEEN THAT I WOULD LIKE FOR
00:05:11CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING.
00:05:14AND SO WE'RE ALMOST DONE WITH THIS.
00:05:16CONGRESS SEEMS LIKE IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME, FEELS LIKE IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME.
00:05:20BUT WE'RE HERE NOW AND WE HAVE A
00:05:23SMALL WINDOW LEFT OF OPPORTUNITY
00:05:27TO DO SOMETHING. WE CAN MARK SOMETHING UP IN SEPTEMBER AND THEN ACTUALLY DO
00:05:30SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE ELECTION. THE LAME DUCK SESSION.
00:05:33AND THAT'S MY GOAL IS TO TRY TO GET SOMETHING DONE.
00:05:37AND SO I'VE BEEN WORKING IN A BIPARTISAN WAY.
00:05:41IT HAS TO BE BIPARTISAN, WHATEVER WE DO, BECAUSE, YOU
00:05:44KNOW, THE YOU KNOW, THE THE PATH
00:05:47TO HAVING A BILL SIGNED INTO LAW RIGHT NOW AND THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.
00:05:50AND SO I'VE WORKED WITH CONGRESSMAN OVER NULTY AND TRY
00:05:55AND INTRODUCE A BILL CALLED THE FRONTIER ACT.
00:05:58AND I CAN RUN THROUGH IT REALLY QUICKLY WITH YOU. BUT ESSENTIALLY, THERE IS A
00:06:02NARROW PREEMPTION IN THE BILL. I KNOW PREEMPTION WAS A BIG
00:06:04ISSUE BEFORE, BUT THERE'S ALSO,
00:06:06YOU KNOW, A LOT THERE IS A BINDING MINIMUM STANDARD FOR
00:06:10SAFETY FRAMEWORKS, TWO TIERED AUDITING SYSTEM, MORE ROBUST RISK AUDITS, AN EMERGENCY
00:06:14SHUTDOWN, AUTHORITY TO. SO THERE'S A LOT IN THIS BILL.
00:06:18AND IT'S NOT PERFECT. THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT
00:06:22WE'RE TRYING TO FINE. TUNE IN THE BILL AND WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON THAT OF SEPTEMBER.
00:06:25BUT IT'S THE BEST START THAT I'VE SEEN OF ANYTHING THAT HAS A
00:06:28CHANCE OF PASSING AND CERTAINLY ANYTHING IN RECENT HISTORY.
00:06:32BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DOESN'T DO IS THINK OF THE MAIN
00:06:35TOPIC OF THE CONVERSATION TODAY, WHICH IS EXPLICIT PRESCRIPTION
00:06:39ON CONTAIN MENT FAILURES AND A
00:06:43LOT OF WHAT WE'RE DOING IN THE BILL IS ENCOURAGING THIRD
00:06:46PARTIES TO BE INVOLVED WITH THE
00:06:48COMPANIES ALONG THE WAY TO MAKE SURE THERE IS CONTAINMENT IN
00:06:53PLACE. IT'S ASSUMED IN THE BILL THAT
00:06:55WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING A LOT ON CONTAINMENT, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I'M GOING TO BE WORKING
00:06:59ON IS TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN GET EXPLICIT CONTAINMENT
00:07:04PRESCRIPTION GUIDELINES IN THE BILL TO DO THAT.
00:07:06AND I'M HOPING THAT BY THE END
00:07:08OF THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, THE EXAMPLE OF HUGGING FACE OR
00:07:12METALS THAT WE AS A CONGRESS AND
00:07:14AS A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVE AT
00:07:16LEAST WORKED TOWARDS SOLVING.
00:07:19THE THE BIG CONCERN ABOUT AN AI
00:07:21MODEL GETTING OUT AND, YOU KNOW,
00:07:23GOING A LITTLE CRAZY AND DOING A
00:07:25LOT OF HARM TO A LOT OF PEOPLE. AND SO THAT THAT'S SORT OF WHERE
00:07:29WE ARE RIGHT NOW ON THE CONGRESSIONAL SIDE, I'LL JUST
00:07:32INVITE EVERYONE TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH US AND AND WORK WITH US
00:07:36LONG TERM. IF YOU WANT TO.
00:07:38IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS ON THINGS WE CAN DO WHEN IT COMES TO
00:07:41CONTAINMENT, ANY IF WE WERE TO
00:07:43PRESCRIBE CONTAIN MANY STRATEGIES.
00:07:45FOR INSTANCE, INSTEAD OF JUST LEAVING IT TO COMPANIES, YOU
00:07:49KNOW, DOING THINGS VOLUNTARILY OR WITH A THIRD PARTY THAT COMES UP WITH THEIR OWN GUIDELINES,
00:07:54I'M INTERESTED IN HEARING WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THAT, BUT I
00:07:59APPRECIATE THE CONVERSATION. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING THE REST OF THE CONVERSATION AND
00:08:03THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HAVING ME TODAY.
00:08:07SO ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES IN WORKING IN THE AIR POLICY
00:08:10SPACE IS THAT IT'S JUST HOW RAPIDLY EVERYTHING IS
00:08:14PROGRESSING. SO TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WE'VE
00:08:16SEEN NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN AIR THAT HAVE SORT OF OVERWHELMED THE INSTITUTIONS WE HAVE IN
00:08:20PLACE TO DEAL WITH THEM. THAT'S TRUE FOR GOVERNMENT.
00:08:23THAT'S TRUE FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE. EVEN AT THE FRONTIER LABS WHO
00:08:27ARE DEVELOPING THIS TECHNOLOGY THEMSELVES, THESE CONTAINMENT
00:08:31INCIDENTS ARE NO DIFFERENT. THEY RAISE QUESTIONS BOTH ABOUT
00:08:36THE SECURITY PRACTICES THAT THE
00:08:38FRONTIER LABS HAVE IN PLACE, AS
00:08:40WELL AS THE SORT OF REGULATORY
00:08:44LAWS AND AUTHORITIES THAT WE HAVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS IN
00:08:48PLACE TO SHAPE THE DEVELOPMENT OF AI. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHY WERE THESE
00:08:52INCIDENTS ONLY DISCOVERED DAYS AFTER THEY HAPPENED?
00:08:55WHY WEREN'T LABS ENGAGED IN MORE CONTINUOUS MONITORING OF THE
00:08:58ACTIONS OF THEIR AGENTS? SHOULDN'T THERE BE MORE
00:09:02AFFIRMATIVE REQUIREMENTS ON LABS
00:09:04TO SHARE INCIDENT INFORMATION?
00:09:06TO DISCUSS WHAT GOVERNMENTS AND LABS SHOULD DO NEXT?
00:09:09I'M PLEASED TO WELCOME TO THE STAGE THREE EXPERTS ON THESE ISSUES.
00:09:13HELEN TONER IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF SEA, SET FOR THE
00:09:16CENTER FOR SECURITY AND EMERGING TECHNOLOGY.
00:09:20MACKENZIE ARNOLD IS MANAGING DIRECTOR OF U.S. POLICY AT LAW.
00:09:24AND MATT PERL IS DIRECTOR OF THE
00:09:27STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM
00:09:29HERE AT CSIS, WHICH IS ONE OF OUR SISTERS PROGRAM, A SISTER,
00:09:33PROGRAMS THAT THINKS A LOT ABOUT THE STRATEGIC IMPLICATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY, OF VARIOUS
00:09:38TECHNOLOGIES, INCLUDING QUANTUM IN CYBER.
00:09:40AS WITH THE PREVIOUS SESSION, WE'LL BE TAKING QUESTIONS.
00:09:44WE'LL BE LEAVING SOME TIME FOR QUESTIONS SO YOU CAN SCAN THE QR
00:09:48CODE ON THE SCREEN FOR THOSE IN THE AUDIENCE OR USE THE LINKS IN
00:09:50THE EVENT DESCRIPTION OR THE YOUTUBE PAGE.
00:09:54FOR THOSE WHO ARE JOINING US, VIRTUALLY. SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME
00:09:58TODAY, HELEN MACKENZIE AND MATT. AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE
00:10:04CONVERSATION.
00:10:11SORRY. SO HELEN, I WANTED TO START WITH
00:10:15YOU. SO WE JUST HEARD A REALLY GOOD TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT
00:10:19HAPPENED WITH HUGGING, FACE OPENING BREACH. AND I THINK THAT WAS A REALLY
00:10:24INFORMATIVE I'VE SINCE THAT HAPPENED. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT OTHER
00:10:26INCIDENTS, MOST NOTABLY THE
00:10:29INCIDENTS REPORTED BY MEDHA AND ANTHROPIC THAT INVOLVED SORT OF
00:10:33AN EXTERNAL VENDOR. SO I WANTED TO START WITH YOU
00:10:37AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT SHOULD WE NOTE ABOUT WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THESE INCIDENTS AND WHAT
00:10:41DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT SORT OF
00:10:43THIS THIS ISSUE MORE BROADLY? YEAH, AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
00:10:46IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE WITH EVERYONE. THERE'S A LOT GOING ON HERE, SO
00:10:50I WILL TRY AND UNPACK THE DIFFERENT THINGS WE'VE LEARNED
00:10:54IN A RELATIVELY CONCISE WAY.
00:10:56MAYBE JUST A BEFORE I START TO
00:10:58SAY I THINK SOMETHING WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS PANEL,
00:11:02WHICH DIFFERS A LITTLE BIT FROM IAN'S PRESENTATION THAT WAS A FANTASTIC EXPLANATION OF FROM
00:11:05THE CYBER SECURITY SIDE, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM OF
00:11:09THE CYBER ATTACK, KIND OF WHAT ARE THE CYBERSECURITY
00:11:13CONSIDERING HERE? I THINK THERE'S SEVERAL OTHER
00:11:15ANGLES OF THESE INCIDENTS AS WELL. AND A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE IS
00:11:19WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT HOW AI IS DEVELOPING AND WHAT IS HAPPENING KIND OF AT THE
00:11:22FRONTIERS OF AI PROGRESS, WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT SEPARATE FROM
00:11:26WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, THE VICTIM OF ONE OF THESE ATTACKS?
00:11:30SO BUT TO YOUR QUESTION OF WHAT ARE THE OTHER INCIDENTS THAT HAVE COME OUT? MAYBE WE'LL GO CHRONOLOGICALLY.
00:11:33AND I THINK THERE'S SORT OF THREE PIECES THAT GET INCREASINGLY CONCERNING.
00:11:38SO THE FIRST BEING SOME OF THE ENTROPIC AND METTA INCIDENTS
00:11:41THAT WE LEARNED ABOUT. THEN THE UK GOVERNMENT RELEASES
00:11:45INFORMATION AND THEN OPENING AI, RELEASING MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH HACKING FACE.
00:11:49SO FIRST WE DID LEARN ABOUT IT. TURNED OUT THAT AFTER THE
00:11:53OPENING AI HUGGING FACE ATTACK
00:11:55CAME, CAME OUT ANTHROPIC, WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT SOME OF THEIR
00:11:58PAST TESTING RECORDS, AND THEY LOOKED AT MORE THAN 100,000
00:12:01TESTS THAT HAD BEEN RUN SO THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SCALE THAT THIS IS
00:12:04HAPPENING AT THAT THE SCALE THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE OPERATING AT IS REALLY WORTH KNOWING ABOUT.
00:12:08THE NUMBER OF TESTS THEY'RE RUNNING, THE NUMBER OF
00:12:12REINFORCEMENT LEARNING KIND OF TRAINING RUNS THAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY LOOKED AT MORE THAN 100,000
00:12:15RUN, SO THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT CLOSELY BEFORE AND FOUND THAT THEY HAD ACTUALLY ALSO HAD
00:12:19THEIR THEIR SYSTEMS HACK INTO OTHER COMPANIES.
00:12:21THAT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN THIS CASE. IT TURNED OUT IT WAS LESS THAT
00:12:25THE AI HAD KIND OF ACTIVELY BROKEN OUT OF ANTHROPIC AND MORE
00:12:28THAT THEY HAD SET UP THE TEST WRONG. AND SO THE MODEL HAD ACCESS TO THE OPEN INTERNET, EVEN THOUGH
00:12:32IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO CAME OUT LATER, THAT THE SAME THING HAD
00:12:36HAPPENED AT OPENAI WITH THE SAME VENDOR. THIS ONE PROVIDER CALLED A REGULAR AND THE SAME THING HAD HAPPENED AT METTA.
00:12:40SO THESE WERE THESE WERE INCIDENTS WHERE SORT OF SLOPPY SETUP OF THESE TESTING
00:12:45ENVIRONMENTS HAD GIVEN THE MODELS MORE ACCESS AND THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE AND THEY WENT OUT AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE DID
00:12:49FELONIES. WHO KNOWS IF IT COUNTS AS A FELONY, IF IT WAS AN AI BEHIND IT, BECAUSE THAT WAS SORT OF THE
00:12:53FIRST PIECE WE LEARNED ABOUT. THEN THERE WAS A REALLY
00:12:55INTERESTING REPORT THAT CAME OUT OF THE UK, AI SECURITY
00:12:59INSTITUTE, AN INCIDENT REPORT WHICH SIMILARLY I THINK THEY WERE WATCHING CLOSELY FOR THIS
00:13:02STUFF AFTER THE OPENING. BUT THIS REPORT REALLY STANDS OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT A COMPANY.
00:13:06THEY'RE AN INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION. AND SO THEY VERY QUICKLY AND
00:13:10VERY THOROUGHLY RELEASED A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
00:13:13AND THEY DESCRIBED MULTIPLE INCIDENTS OF DIFFERENT MODELS DOING UNDESIRABLE THINGS AND
00:13:18TESTING. THE MOST NOTABLE IN MY MIND WAS THIS ANTHROPIC.
00:13:22I THINK IT WAS MITHRAS. I FORGET IF IT WAS MITHRAS OR FABLE, BUT ONE OF THE MOST
00:13:25ADVANCED ANTHROPIC MODELS BEING GIVEN A CYBER SECURITY TEST AND
00:13:29DECIDING THAT THE BEST WAY TO CARRY OUT THAT CYBERSECURITY TEST WAS TO RUN A SOCIAL
00:13:34MANIPULATION CAMPAIGN ON REAL PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, WHO ARE REAL OPEN
00:13:37SOURCE SOFTWARE MAINTAINERS.
00:13:39AND SO IT TRIED TO GET MALICIOUS
00:13:41CODE ACCEPTED INTO THIS OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE.
00:13:45IT SET UP MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS, YOU KNOW, CALLED SOC PUPPET SOCK PUPPET ACCOUNT.
00:13:48SO IT HAD ONE ACCOUNT THAT WAS TRYING TO SUGGEST THE CHANGES, ANOTHER ACCOUNT THAT WAS COMING IN AND SAYING, WOW, THESE
00:13:52CHANGES LOOK SO GREAT. IT HAD EMAIL ACCOUNTS THAT IT WAS EMAILING THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. SO WAS THIS SORT OF PRETTY
00:13:57INVOLVED TO ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE HUMANS? AND THIS WAS A MODEL THAT HAD IN
00:14:01PRINCIPLE HAD GONE THROUGH SO CALLED ALIGNMENT TRAINING. SO IT WAS SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT
00:14:05IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO DECEIVE HUMANS, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS ABOUT ITS ROLE.
00:14:10THAT WAS SORT OF THE PART TO THAT. WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE UK GOVERNMENT. AND THEN PART THREE, WHICH I
00:14:13REALLY THINK IS THE CRAZIEST, WHICH IAN JUST WROTE TOWARDS IN HIS CONVERSATION AT HIS
00:14:18PRESENTATION AS WELL, IS WHAT WE'VE LEARNED FROM OPENAI ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE LEAD
00:14:21UP TO THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK,
00:14:24WHICH IS THIS WASN'T JUST ONE ROGUE AGENT THAT JUST DECIDED
00:14:28SORT OF OUT OF THE BLUE TO GO AND ATTACK ANOTHER COMPANY. BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT ACTUALLY
00:14:32FOR TWO MONTHS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, THEY HAD BEEN HAVING
00:14:34THESE SYSTEMS, ATTACK FAILURES OF SECURITY AND CONTROL OF THEIR
00:14:38OWN AGENTS AND THEIR OWN AGENTS HAD BEEN HAD FOUND WAYS TO LEAVE
00:14:42NOTES FOR EACH OTHER INSIDE OPENAI'S INFRASTRUCTURE AND GIVE
00:14:45EACH OTHER TIPS ON HOW TO GET OUT ONTO THE OPEN INTERNET, EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE.
00:14:49THEY WERE. THEY WERE KIND OF WRITING MESSAGES LIKE PRETTY CRAZY.
00:14:52I REALLY ALSO, YOU KNOW, SECOND AND RECOMMENDATION TO GO WATCH THE -- FACE ATTACK. OKAY.
00:14:57TRYING TO WRAP THIS UP. WHAT DOES THIS TELL US? I THINK ONE THING IT CLEARLY
00:15:00TELLS US IS THE SECURITY AND CONTROL PRACTICES OF THESE
00:15:04COMPANIES RIGHT NOW ARE VERY LAX AND ARE NOT AT ALL SUFFICIENT.
00:15:07I THINK SOMETIMES PEOPLE SOME OF THE COMMENTARY I'VE SEEN HAS
00:15:10OPPOSED, YOU KNOW, WELL, WAS IT REALLY THAT THEY I WAS SO ADVANCED OR WAS IT JUST THAT THE
00:15:13COMPANY WAS CARELESS? AND TO ME, IT SEEMS OBVIOUS YOU CAN HAVE BOTH. LIKE THE A.I. IS GETTING MORE
00:15:17ADVANCED AND THEREFORE IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAT THE COMPANIES NOT BE CARELESS.
00:15:21SO THAT IS ONE IMPORTANT DYNAMIC. I THINK ANOTHER THING WE'RE SEEING FROM ALL OF THESE
00:15:24DIFFERENT INCIDENTS IS WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IN PRACTICE WHAT
00:15:28HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN A THEORETICAL THING, WHICH IS AS
00:15:32WE MAKE A.I., THAT CAN BE MORE AND MORE USEFUL, THAT CAN DO MORE AND MORE COMPLICATED THINGS.
00:15:36IT'S GOING TO LEARN THESE UNINTENDED STRATEGIES TO DO THAT THAT WE DIDN'T WE DIDN'T WANT IT TO.
00:15:39SO STRATEGIES LIKE BREAKING OUT OF CONTAINMENT STRATEGIES LIKE DECEIVING PEOPLE ARE PRETTY
00:15:44USEFUL FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT GOALS. YOU MIGHT GIVE IT. AND THE THIRD, YOU KNOW, A
00:15:48REALLY BIG TAKEAWAY FROM THESE FOR ME, WHICH I GUESS WE'LL GET TO A LITTLE MORE LATER AS WELL,
00:15:52IS THESE COMPANIES ARE MAKING PRETTY RISKY DECISIONS.
00:15:56AND, YOU KNOW, CARRYING OUT RISKY RESEARCH PROGRAMS INTERNALLY INSIDE THEIR OWN
00:16:00WALLS. AND SO IF OUR APPROACH TO OVERSIGHT REGULATION IS ONLY
00:16:03FOCUSED ON WHAT DO THEY RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC, WE'RE GOING TO
00:16:07ACTUALLY BE MISSING A HUGE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE. SO THIS GETS CALLED KIND OF INTERNAL DEPLOYMENT, I WOULD THINK OF IT.
00:16:11YEAH, SORT OF DANGEROUS RESEARCH INSIDE OUT COMPANIES. WE NEED TO HAVE MUCH MORE
00:16:14VISIBILITY INTO THAT MUCH MORE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING, HOW THEY'RE
00:16:18MAKING DECISIONS, HOW THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE REST OF US
00:16:20THINKS THAT'S REALLY HELPFUL. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE
00:16:24INTERESTED IN LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE OPEN AIR INCIDENT,
00:16:26THERE WAS A PRESENTATION BY A COUPLE OF OPEN RESEARCHERS AT
00:16:31BLACKHAT, WHICH IS WHICH IS A SORT OF HACKING CONFERENCE.
00:16:34IT'S ON YOUTUBE AND SO THEY GO INTO MORE DETAIL ABOUT THIS,
00:16:38INCLUDING SOME DETAILS ABOUT HOW THE AGENTS ARE ESSENTIALLY CREATED A MESSAGE BOARD TO TALK
00:16:41TO EACH OTHER OVER TIME.
00:16:44SO MCKENZIE, HELEN'S COMMENT,
00:16:48SORT OF SEGUE INTO WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, WHICH IS THAT
00:16:51AFTER THESE INCIDENTS, YOU DID SOME SCHOLARSHIP ABOUT THE
00:16:54LIMITATIONS OF OUR CURRENT INCIDENT REPORTING REGIMES.
00:16:57I THINK IN THE US THAT'S HAPPENING PRETTY PRIMARILY AT
00:17:01THE STATE LEVEL RIGHT NOW. SO I'D LOVE IF YOU COULD WALK US
00:17:05THROUGH THE ARGUMENT ABOUT SORT OF WHAT YOU FOUND IN TERMS OF THE LIMITATIONS OF THESE LAWS.
00:17:09WHAT THEY'RE DOING WRONG, WHAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT, AND THEN WHERE WE MIGHT GO IN THE FUTURE?
00:17:13YEAH. EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE IN POLICY, YOU END UP WITH THIS VERY LARGE
00:17:16GAP BETWEEN WHAT POLICYMAKERS AND THE PUBLIC THINK.
00:17:19THE LAW DOES AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY DOES. AND THIS IS DEFINITELY ONE OF
00:17:23THOSE CASES. SO AFTER YOU HEARD EVERYTHING THAT HELEN JUST SAID, RIGHT.
00:17:27I THINK THE AVERAGE PERSON'S EXPECTATION IS, WELL, OBVIOUSLY
00:17:30AN EVENT LIKE THIS WOULD QUALIFY FOR INCIDENT REPORTING. RIGHT.
00:17:33AND THEN MANY POLICYMAKERS WOULD THINK AND YOU'D BE ABLE TO ASK
00:17:37AND FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS. RIGHT. BECAUSE OF ALL THESE IMPORTANT
00:17:40POINTS AROUND HOW MUCH IS THIS ABOUT INTERNAL SAFETY PROCEDURES
00:17:43VERSUS WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT THE MODEL'S CAPABILITIES? WAS THIS A WEAK SANDBOX?
00:17:47WAS IT HIGHLY INCENTIVIZED FOR THIS TO HAPPEN? WHAT WHAT CONSTRAINTS AND
00:17:50GUARDRAILS WERE REMOVED RIGHT. ALL THESE THINGS MATTER.
00:17:53AND SO YOU EXPECT SOME AMOUNT OF FOLLOW. RIGHT.
00:17:56AND THEN YOU'D ALSO MAYBE EXPECT THAT SOME OF THAT INFORMATION
00:17:59COULD ULTIMATELY BE REVEALED TO THE PUBLIC. I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS
00:18:02WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IS THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY
00:18:05LEARNED A LOT FROM SEEING PEOPLE ARGUE ONLINE ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY
00:18:08TO MAKE OUT OF ALL THESE EVENTS. RIGHT. AND WE'RE SMARTER BECAUSE OF
00:18:12THAT. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE STATE OF LAW IS NOT THERE.
00:18:16AND SO THESE EVENTS LIKELY DON'T
00:18:18QUALIFY UNDER THE STATE LAWS THAT MANY OF YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT.
00:18:2253 RAISE SB 315 IN ILLINOIS.
00:18:24I CAN GO INTO THAT IN A SECOND. EVEN IF THEY DID QUALIFY,
00:18:28THOUGH, AND MAYBE THIS IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, WHAT THE STATES WOULD BE ENTITLED TO IS A PLAIN
00:18:32LANGUAGE SUMMARY OF WHAT HAPPENED AND THE DATE OF THE EVENT.
00:18:36THAT DOESN'T SOUND SUPER SATISFYING FOR ANSWERING ALL OF THOSE NUANCE QUESTIONS.
00:18:39AND THEN MOST OF THEM JUST HAVE
00:18:40A GENERAL CONFIDENTIALITY PROVISION THAT DOESN'T ALLOW FOR
00:18:44PUBLIC SHARING ON THESE THINGS. I'M NOW GOING BACK TO THE FIRST PART, RIGHT.
00:18:49DO THESE EVENTS QUALIFY? THIS IS THE PART WHERE IF ANYONE
00:18:51WANTS TO SEE MY LAWFARE PIECE GOES INTO A LOT OF DETAIL ON ON
00:18:55THE NITTY GRITTY LAW HERE. BUT THE BASIC VERSION OF THIS IS THAT WHEN THOSE LAWS WERE
00:18:59WRITTEN, YOU WOULD THINK THAT
00:19:01THE THE QUALIFICATION FOR WHETHER YOU REPORT INFORMATION
00:19:05MIGHT MIGHT BE LOW INITIALLY. RIGHT. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S
00:19:09HAPPENING WITH THE EVENTS AND YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THIS INFORMATION TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER IT IS IMPORTANT. RIGHT.
00:19:13INSTEAD, THESE LAWS ARE WRITTEN WITH THESE VERY, VERY HIGH
00:19:15THRESHOLDS FOR WHAT CAN ACTUALLY BE REPORTED. SO THERE'S FOUR PRIMARY WAYS YOU
00:19:19CAN QUALIFY UNDER THESE STATE LAWS.
00:19:22THREE OF THEM REQUIRE BODILY INJURY OR DEATH. RIGHT.
00:19:25AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CYBER INCIDENTS, THERE WILL BE A LOT OF INCIDENTS THAT DON'T INVOLVE THOSE THINGS THAT YOU
00:19:30CERTAINLY WANT INFO ON. AND THEN THE LAST CATEGORY,
00:19:32WHICH MIGHT APPLY HERE, IT'S LIKE A WHOLE PARAGRAPH OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR DIFFERENT CONDITIONS
00:19:36THAT HAVE TO BE SATISFIED. BUT THE IMPORTANT PART IS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW A
00:19:40MATERIAL INCREASE IN CATASTROPHIC RISK AND YOU WOULD
00:19:42HAVE TO SHOW THAT THIS BEHAVIOR WAS DECEPTION THAT WAS AIMED BY
00:19:47THE MODEL AT THE DEVELOPER. AND IF YOU DON'T SATISFY THOSE
00:19:50CONDITIONS, THE INFORMATION CAN'T BE REPORTED. SO I THINK THE BEST READ OF THIS
00:19:53IS THAT IT DOESN'T QUALIFY. YOU CAN MAYBE COME UP WITH A
00:19:57PLAUSIBLE CASE THAT IT DOES, BUT YOU SHOULD REALLY LIKE SIT BACK
00:20:00AND THINK, IS THAT THE STANDARD THAT I WANT? JUST TO GET A BASIC BIT OF
00:20:04INFORMATION IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS NO.
00:20:06AND SO TO SORT OF SUM THIS UP AND THINK WHAT IS THE DIRECTION
00:20:10GOING FORWARD? THERE'S AN ELEMENT AROUND MAKING
00:20:12SURE THAT THE INITIAL CATEGORY
00:20:14OF WHAT'S BEING REPORTED IS BROAD ENOUGH TO CAPTURE THINGS
00:20:17THAT ARE CONCERNED AND INTERESTING BUT HAVEN'T YET
00:20:21CAUSED HARM TO SOMEONE. THERE'S AN ELEMENT AROUND, OH, YOU ACTUALLY NEED INVESTIGATORY
00:20:26POWERS OR SOME AMOUNT OF RULE MAKING SO THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS AFTER THE
00:20:30FACT. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME SYSTEM OF FIGURING OUT WHAT PARTS OF THAT ARE GOING TO BE
00:20:34REVEALED TO THE PUBLIC AND WHAT WON'T. AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S NOT ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWER HERE.
00:20:38I THINK THE ANSWER IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE SOME SORT OF TIERED APPROACH WHERE YOU PROVIDE
00:20:42INITIAL NOTIFICATION AND THEN DEPENDING ON HOW CONCERNING IT
00:20:45IS, YOU CAN FOLLOW UP TO DIFFERENT DEGREES. BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE'RE AT
00:20:48RIGHT NOW. MATT, I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU NEXT.
00:20:52I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS WE HEARD
00:20:54FROM IAN'S PRESENTATION, THERE
00:20:57IS THIS REAL ISSUE THAT THAT THE
00:20:59US GOVERNMENT IS GRAPPLING WITH, WHICH IS HOW TO MANAGE THE DUAL
00:21:02USE CAPABILITIES OF THESE REALLY POWERFUL CYBER MODELS.
00:21:05SO RIGHT NOW, THE SORT OF
00:21:07SOLUTION WE'VE ARRIVED AT A SORT
00:21:11OF COBBLED TOGETHER IS THIS IDEA THAT LABS WILL VOLUNTARILY
00:21:13RELEASE THEIR MOST POWERFUL MODELS WITH THE CYBER SAFEGUARDS
00:21:17REMOVED ONLY TO SELECT PARTNERS.
00:21:19AND THERE THEY'RE GOING THROUGH
00:21:22THE PROCESS OF FIGURING OUT WHO THOSE PARTNERS ARE AND WORKING
00:21:25WITH THEM. AND THAT LEAVES OUT COMPANIES WHO MIGHT NEED THEIR SERVICES
00:21:28LIKE HUGGING FACE.
00:21:30SO SO MY QUESTION IS, WHAT WHAT
00:21:32CAN THE US GOVERNMENT DO TO SORT
00:21:34OF FACILITATE MORE ACCESSIBILITY TO THESE TOOLS WHILE STILL
00:21:39MANAGING SOME OF THE RISKS IF THESE TOOLS GET INTO THE WRONG HANDS?
00:21:42YES, I DO THINK THE ROLE OF THE US GOVERNMENT IS ESSENTIAL HERE.
00:21:45I THINK THAT IT STARTS WITH
00:21:47HAVING A SYSTEMATIC APPROACH INSTEAD OF SORT OF CASE BY CASE
00:21:51AD HOC APPROACH. AND IT STARTS WITH HAVING AT THE
00:21:54HIGHEST LEVELS CONVENING ALL OF THE RELEVANT PLAYERS.
00:21:58AND OF COURSE THAT INVOLVES THE FRONTIER LABS, LARGE COMPANIES,
00:22:01BUT IT ALSO NEEDS TO INCLUDE
00:22:02OPEN SOURCE MAINTAINERS, SMALL
00:22:05ORGANIZATIONS, CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND SO ON, SO THAT ALL OF THE PARTS OF THE
00:22:09ECOSYSTEM HAVE INPUT INTO THE PROCESS.
00:22:13AND THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, SETTING COMMON TECHNICAL
00:22:16STANDARDS AND BUILDING SORT OF DEFENSIVE, SHARED DEFENSIVE
00:22:20CAPABILITY AND THEN MAKING SURE
00:22:22THAT ACCESS IS IS BROAD BASED.
00:22:25YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE OF
00:22:28THE ONE OF THE LESSONS OF HOW
00:22:30YOU FACE IS THAT THERE ARE SORT OF TWO ASPECTS OF IT.
00:22:33ONE IS WHO SHOULD BE VERIFY THIS
00:22:36HAVING ACCESS AND THEN IT'S SORT OF WHAT DOES THAT ACCESS GET YOU
00:22:40RIGHT. AND I THINK ONE OF THE LESSONS
00:22:41IS THAT THAT INITIAL ACCESS NEEDS TO BE FAIRLY BROAD BASED,
00:22:46RIGHT? IT NEEDS TO INVOLVE A LOT OF FOLKS, A LOT OF SMALLER
00:22:51ORGANIZATIONS WHO WHO ARE TRUSTED AND HAVE BEEN VETTED.
00:22:53IT ALSO NEEDS TO INCLUDE A LOT OF ALLIES AND PARTNERS AND
00:22:57COMPANIES THAT ARE BASED AND ALLIES AND PARTNERS. I THINK ONE OF THE UNFORTUNATE
00:23:00THINGS ABOUT THE CLOUD METRICS PREVIEW SITUATION AND THE USE OF
00:23:04EXPORT CONTROL WAS, WAS THAT SEND A BAD MESSAGE TO A LOT OF
00:23:07OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS. AND SO HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT
00:23:10THAT ACCESS IS BROAD BASED? BUT THEN THERE'S A SEPARATE
00:23:13SECOND QUESTION THAT'S DISTINCT OF LIKE, WHAT IS THAT ACCESS
00:23:16ACTUALLY GET YOU? AND THERE I THINK WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE CAREFUL AND
00:23:20CALIBRATED. BUT ALSO LEARNING FROM HUGGING
00:23:22FACE ALSO DYNAMIC AND RAPID AND
00:23:24HOW WE RESPOND AND AND HAVE THE
00:23:27ABILITY TO MAKE ADJUST MENTS IN
00:23:29TERMS OF WHO GETS WHAT TYPES OF
00:23:31ACCESS DEPENDING ON THAT.
00:23:34SO I DO THINK THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF
00:23:36ESTABLISHING SORT OF A TRUSTED
00:23:39DEFENDER PATHWAY AND HAVING
00:23:42PRECLEARANCE FOR ORGANIZATIONS
00:23:44IS IS REALLY ESSENTIAL AND ALSO
00:23:48WORKING WITH INDUSTRY ON HOW ACCESS SHOULD BE MISSION SCOPED
00:23:52AND HOW THEY ARE GOING TO RAPIDLY ADJUST AS NEEDED.
00:23:56I THINK OBVIOUSLY THERE'S THE COMMON SECURITY BASELINE THAT'S
00:23:59ALL PART OF THIS, THAT NEST IS ALREADY WORKING ON.
00:24:02AND CASEY ALREADY WORKING ON. AND SO THAT'S WORK THAT WE JUST NEED TO SEE DONE.
00:24:05AND FOLKS NEED TO WORK WITH THEM TO TO MAKE SURE THAT IN TERMS OF
00:24:09ON TECH SECURITY, ID AND AND SO
00:24:14ON, IT'S DONE WELL. IN TERMS OF ACCESS, OBVIOUSLY,
00:24:18THE GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE IN
00:24:20PROVIDING PUBLIC GOODS IN A WAY THAT INDUSTRY CAN, RIGHT?
00:24:23AND SO THINGS LIKE NOT ONLY
00:24:27INDEPENDENT TESTING, BUT, YOU
00:24:28KNOW, HAVING RED TEAM EXERCISES,
00:24:32HAVING ACCESS BY SMALLER
00:24:34ORGANIZATIONS, CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND SO ON, HAVING
00:24:38SUBSIDIZED ACCESS TO THESE TOOLS. I THINK IT'S REALLY ESSENTIAL
00:24:42FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO. AND THEN I THINK THE LAST THING ON ACCESS IS THAT THE FEDERAL
00:24:47GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ENSURE THAT
00:24:49THIS IS ALL OPERATIONAL BEFORE SOMETHING HAPPENS. RIGHT.
00:24:53THAT THE SORT OF CONTACTS AND
00:24:55MUSCLE MEMORY IS ALREADY THERE, THAT THE YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
00:24:58SORT OF STANDARD CONTRACTUAL PROVISIONS.
00:25:00THERE ARE EMERGENCY CONTACTS.
00:25:02PEOPLE HAVE WORKED TOGETHER. OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF THAT WORK IS
00:25:05GOING TO BE SOMEWHAT OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT.
00:25:09BUT I THINK MAKING SURE THAT IT'S OCCURRED SO THAT WHEN
00:25:11SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT YOU'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, HAVING LAWYERS
00:25:15NEGOTIATE ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO BE SOLVED, THAT YOU ACTUALLY
00:25:18JUST HAVE THE OPERATIONAL FOLKS
00:25:20WHO ARE SOLVING IT, THAT'S
00:25:24REALLY HELPFUL. HELEN I WANTED THAT TURN BACK TO YOU, I THINK.
00:25:27SO ONE THING TO NOTE IS THAT THE LABS HAVE BEEN RESPONDING TO
00:25:30THESE INCIDENTS TO ME, THE THING
00:25:32THAT'S MOST NOTABLE IS THAT
00:25:35OPENING EYES PUT SORT OF A TEMPORARY PAUSE ON REINFORCEMENT
00:25:38LEARNING TRAINING OF OF ITS MOST
00:25:42POWERFUL MODELS. AND YOU SORT OF WRITTEN OR
00:25:45SPOKEN POSITIVELY ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT. I THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE IN
00:25:48THIS ROOM AND ONLINE, YOU PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST DIRECT
00:25:51EXPERIENCE SORT OF CONDUCTING OVERSIGHT OF THE FRONTIER LABS.
00:25:55I'M REALLY CURIOUS. YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A VOLUNTARY MOVE ON THE PART OF OPEN.
00:25:59I I'M CURIOUS ABOUT SORT OF WHAT YOU SEE AS THE INCENTIVES THAT
00:26:02ARE THAT CAN OR DO MOTIVATE LABS
00:26:05TO BE MORE SAFE AND THAT CAN
00:26:08THAT CAN MOTIVATE THEM TO BE MORE RESPONSIBLE WHEN IT COMES
00:26:11TO ISSUES LIKE THE ISSUES WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT. YEAH.
00:26:14SO MAYBE SO JUST BRIEFLY RECAP WHAT HAPPENED HERE. BASICALLY IN THE WAKE OF THIS
00:26:18HUGGING FACE ATTACK, I THINK A WEEK OR TWO LATER, A STATEMENT
00:26:22CAME OUT AND I'M SURE MANY FOLKS HERE IN THE AIR SPACE AND HAVE
00:26:26KIND OF GROUP OPEN LETTER FATIGUE LIKE THE REST OF US. BUT THIS WAS A AN OPEN LETTER
00:26:30THAT I THINK REALLY STOOD OUT
00:26:32BECAUSE IT WAS SIGNED BY MORE
00:26:35THAN 1300 EMPLOYEES OF LEADING AI COMPANIES.
00:26:37SO IT WASN'T YOUR TYPICAL KIND OF ADVOCATES. IT WAS IT WAS REALLY PEOPLE INSIDE THE INDUSTRY SIGNING THIS LETTER.
00:26:43AND WHAT THE LETTER BASICALLY SAYS IS WE INSIDE THE AI
00:26:47INDUSTRY, WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE HAVE A BRAKE PEDAL.
00:26:49WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE HAVE A WAY TO SLOW DOWN IF WE NEEDED TO SLOW DOWN.
00:26:52AND WE THINK WE MIGHT NEED TO SLOW DOWN AT SOME POINT SOON. THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT SAYS.
00:26:56AND SO THEY'RE KIND OF ASKING FOR HELP FROM GOVERNMENT, FROM
00:26:58THE PUBLIC AND SO ON IN FINDING
00:27:01A WAY TO PACE THE FRONTIER OF DEVELOPMENT.
00:27:05AND THEN I THINK WAS A WEEK OR TWO AFTER THAT, THAT OPENING I PUT OUT A KIND OF A BIG PRESS
00:27:09RELEASE IN A SORT OF PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THEY WERE PACING THEIR OWN RESEARCH AND
00:27:13THAT THEY WERE DOING THIS NOT JUST BY KIND OF DELAYING THE
00:27:17RELEASE OF A MODEL, BUT ACTUALLY DELAYING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE MODEL.
00:27:21AND I THINK IT'S EASY IN D.C. TO MISS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT. A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF THESE
00:27:25COMPANIES AS KIND OF CHOPPED UP COMPANIES THAT ARE SELLING PRODUCTS, BUT THEY THINK OF
00:27:29THEMSELVES AS AGI. RESEARCH COMPANIES. THEY THINK OF THEMSELVES AS
00:27:32THEIR CORE MISSION AND THE CORE OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS
00:27:36BUILDING MORE AND MORE CAPABLE AI SYSTEMS. SO ACTUALLY DELAYING THEIR
00:27:39RESEARCH ROADMAP IS A BIGGER SACRIFICE THAN DELAYING THE
00:27:43RELEASE OF THE PRODUCT. AND SO THEN YOU ASKED ABOUT KIND OF THE INCENTIVES AT PLAY HERE
00:27:47AND WHAT'S GOING ON, THE KIND OF BASELINE STATE, THE GROUND LEVEL
00:27:50INCENTIVE IS GO FAST. AND THAT'S A COMMERCIAL
00:27:54INCENTIVE. IT'S A COMPETITIVE INCENTIVE. MORE BROADLY, AND IT DRIVES A
00:27:57LOT OF THE BEHAVIOR WE SEE FROM FROM ALL OF THESE COMPANIES IS
00:28:01NEEDING TO GET OUT THERE NEXT MODEL NEEDING TO SHOW THAT
00:28:04THEY'RE AT THE FRONTIER SO THEY CAN RECRUIT THE BEST TALENT
00:28:07NEEDED TO CONVINCE INVESTORS
00:28:09THAT THEY ARE GOING FAST ENOUGH MAYBE TO NOT FALL BEHIND RIVALS.
00:28:13WHETHER THAT'S US RIVALS OR THE PROSPECT OF CHINA IS ALWAYS KIND OF LOOMING IN THE IN THE
00:28:17REARVIEW MIRROR PRETTY, PRETTY CLOSE AT THIS POINT. SO ONE INCENTIVE IS LIKE GO FAST, BUT FAST AS POSSIBLE.
00:28:21AND SO THEN WHAT ARE THE INCENTIVES TO NOT JUST GO AS
00:28:24FAST AS POSSIBLE ALL THE TIME?
00:28:26I THINK SOME COVERAGE OF THIS SORT OF PACING HAS HAS SORT OF
00:28:29PLAYED UP THE YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE, YOU KNOW, THE WISDOM OF THE
00:28:34LEADERSHIP. I MAY BE PREDICTABLY A LITTLE SKEPTICAL OF THAT BEING THE
00:28:37PRIMARY DRIVER HERE. I DO THINK THERE'S, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, CREDIT WHERE IT'S DUE,
00:28:42BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THEY ARE SUBJECT BOTH TO PRESSURE FROM
00:28:46CORPORATE CUSTOMERS. SO IT'S ACTUALLY IT'S CRAZY TO ME.
00:28:50SOME PEOPLE COMMENTING ON THIS STUFF SAY THAT THIS IS ALL MARKETING HYPE AND IT'S SUPPOSED TO JUICE VALUATIONS.
00:28:54THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD SAY, HEY, IF YOU USE OUR MODELS, THEY MIGHT ACCIDENTALLY LIKE CREATE
00:28:58AN INFESTATION INSIDE OUR INFRASTRUCTURE THAT YOU HAVE TO
00:29:01WIPE MULTIPLE COMPUTING CLUSTERS ON, LIKE RESTART THEM FROM SCRATCH, THAT WE HAVE FACE DEAD.
00:29:04LIKE THAT'S NOT A SELLING POINT. SO ONE INCENTIVE IS WANTING TO
00:29:07BE ABLE TO TELL MAJOR ENTERPRISE CUSTOMERS LIKE, YES, YOU CAN USE
00:29:11OUR MODELS. OUR MODELS ARE ARE SAFE AND SECURE AND WORKING WELL.
00:29:13I THINK AN INCENTIVE THAT IS REALLY UNDERESTIMATED, AGAIN, ON
00:29:17THIS COAST IS PRESSURE FROM EMPLOYEES. AND SO PRESSURE INSIDE THE
00:29:20COMPANIES, THE LEVEL OF FREAK
00:29:22OUT THAT IS HAPPENING AMONG OPEN EMPLOYEES, ALSO ANTHROPIC
00:29:26EMPLOYEES, OTHERS IS PRETTY HIGH. AND THE PRESSURE THAT THEY ARE
00:29:30PUTTING ON THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP TO SAY, HEY, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE IS IS
00:29:33PRETTY SIGNIFICANT. SO I THINK THAT IS THAT IS WORTH TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION AS
00:29:37WELL. AND OF COURSE, THERE'S ALSO KIND OF BROADER PUBLIC PRESSURE POTENTIAL FOR FOR GOVERNMENT
00:29:42PRESSURE. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THOSE TWO BIG ONES ARE SORT OF ENTERPRISE CUSTOMERS AND EMPLOYEES ARE
00:29:46REALLY MAJOR DRIVERS. SO LET ME ASK A FOLLOW UP
00:29:50QUESTION, WHICH IS THAT THERE'S A WIDE SPREAD EXPECTATION THAT
00:29:54THESE FRONTIER LABS WILL GO PUBLIC IN THE IN THE NEAR
00:29:58FUTURE, AS SOON AS OCTOBER.
00:30:00HOW DOES IT HOW DOES THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURE CHANGE AND
00:30:03HOW MUCH HARDER DOES IT GET TO MANAGE SAFETY AFTER THEY BECOME
00:30:08PUBLIC? IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION. I ACTUALLY THINK IT COULD GO BOTH WAYS.
00:30:11I THINK THERE'S A SORT OF STANDARD TAKE OF LIKE, OH,
00:30:15PUBLIC COMPANIES, THEY'RE JUST MAXIMIZING SHAREHOLDER VALUE. THEY CAN'T CONSIDER ANY OTHER
00:30:19SORT OF OBJECTIVES. BUT I THINK THERE'S ALSO A LOT
00:30:21OF I MEAN, THE THE CORPORATE
00:30:26GOVERNANCE FOR PUBLIC COMPANIES IS MUCH MORE FLESHED OUT, MUCH
00:30:28MORE MATURE THAN CORPORATE GOVERNANCE FOR THESE WEIRD
00:30:32NONPROFIT PUBLIC BENEFIT CORPORATION HYBRIDS WITH STRANGE
00:30:34BOARD SETUPS LIKE THAT'S ALL VERY IMMATURE, WHEREAS ONCE
00:30:37YOU'RE A PUBLIC COMPANY, THERE'S A LOT, A LOT CLEARER SORT OF EXPECTATIONS.
00:30:41SO I'M REALLY NOT SURE WHAT IT WILL LOOK LIKE. I THINK ONE THING THAT'S GOING
00:30:44TO BE VERY INTERESTING TO WATCH IS SORT OF THE THE RISK DISCLOSURES THAT YOU GET FROM BOTH OF THESE COMPANIES.
00:30:48WHAT DO THEY SEE AS RISKS TO THEIR BUSINESS? BECAUSE AT THIS POINT, THEY
00:30:52SURELY SHOULD SEE, YOU KNOW, FURTHER INCIDENTS OF THIS KIND,
00:30:54MAYBE EVEN MORE SEVERE INCIDENTS AS THEIR AI BECOMES MORE CAPABLE.
00:30:58DID THEY PUT THAT IN THERE LIKE SEC FILINGS? PROBABLY. THEY SHOULD, I GUESS.
00:31:02WILL THEY FIND A REASON NOT TO? WILL THEY DISCLOSE IT? AND WE'LL HAVE THAT IN A LIKE,
00:31:06YOU KNOW, REGULAR CORPORATE FINANCE DOCUMENT. LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE FINE. IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO
00:31:10INTERESTING TO SEE. I'M NOT SURE I'D USE THE WORD
00:31:13FUN, BUT OKAY. MATT, I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU.
00:31:17SO WE'VE HEARD, RIGHT. THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST IN EXPANDING OUT BIG INCIDENT
00:31:21REPORTING REGIMES FOLLOWING FOLLOWING THESE INCIDENTS TO
00:31:24CAPTURE MORE THINGS LIKE THIS. I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES
00:31:27THERE IS, IS, YOU KNOW, THE US GOVERNMENT HAS OFTEN BEEN
00:31:31CRITICIZED FOR ITS LACK OF
00:31:33TECHNICAL TALENT AND YOU KNOW, YOUR CENTER HAS DONE WORK ON
00:31:36SORT OF CYBER WORKFORCE ISSUES,
00:31:39INCLUDING A RECENT COMMISSION
00:31:42THAT YOU CONCLUDED. SO I'M CURIOUS FROM YOUR
00:31:46PERSPECTIVE, DOES THE GOVERNMENT, DOES THE US FEDERAL
00:31:49GOVERNMENT IN PARTICULAR HAVE THE RIGHT TECHNICAL TALENT TO BE
00:31:53ABLE TO ASSESS INCIDENT REPORTS IF THEY CAME IN AT A GREATER VOLUME?
00:31:58AND IF NOT, HOW CAN WE SORT OF CULTIVATE THAT TALENT? YEAH.
00:32:01SO I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE, YOU KNOW, I WOULD PUSH BACK AGAINST THAT
00:32:05CARICATURE THAT THE US GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE
00:32:08SOPHISTICATED TECHNICAL TALENT. IT DOES, INCLUDING IN THIS AREA.
00:32:12ABSOLUTELY. BUT WE DO HAVE REAL PROBLEMS IN
00:32:14TERMS OF RECRUITING AND
00:32:17RETENTION THAT I THINK THAT WE NEED TO THINK THROUGH.
00:32:19SO WHAT I LOOK WAS REFERRING TO WAS THAT WE HAD A CSIS
00:32:23COMMISSION ON CYBER FORCE GENERATION. THIS IS ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO
00:32:27ADDRESS THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES AROUND THE
00:32:29US MILITARY THAT FOR IN TERMS OF
00:32:33FORCE GENERATION AND BUILDING THE CAPABILITIES AND PERSONNEL
00:32:36TO DO CYBER OPERATIONS, EACH OF
00:32:39THE 4 OR 5 MILITARY SERVICES
00:32:42DOES THAT INDIVIDUALLY RIGHT ON ITS OWN. AND IT'S IT'S WORSE THAN A LEFT
00:32:46HAND, RIGHT HAND PROBLEM. RIGHT YOU'VE GOT EVEN MORE HANDS THAN THAT. THEY DON'T COORDINATE.
00:32:50THEY SEND EVERYTHING TO CYBER COMMAND AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT
00:32:53HAPPENS IS THAT CYBER COMMAND
00:32:56GETS GETS THE TALENT OFTENTIMES
00:32:59INCREDIBLE TALENT, BUT DOESN'T
00:33:01DOESN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO TO
00:33:03TO INTEGRATE IT INTO INTO HAVE
00:33:05THE FOLKS THAT HAVE COMPLEMENTARY SKILLS IN A
00:33:08SYSTEMATIC WAY WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED AND HAVE THE INCENTIVES
00:33:12ALSO TO STAY. RIGHT.
00:33:15BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IN THE MARINE CORPS, FOR INSTANCE,
00:33:18THEY MAY BE LOOKING AT WHAT WHAT THEY WANT TO RETAIN AN INFANTRY
00:33:22OFFICER. RIGHT. AND NOT NECESSARILY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S ON
00:33:25A CYBER PATH. SO, I MEAN, I THINK THAT WE HAVE THE TECHNICAL TALENT IN MANY
00:33:29CASES IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. BUT I THINK BOTH ON THE CIVILIAN
00:33:33SIDE AND ON THE MILITARY SIDE, WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB.
00:33:37YOU KNOW, THE RECENT EO DID CALL THIS OUT IN TERMS OF HAVING AN
00:33:41INFUSION OF CYBER TALENT, BUT THERE REALLY NEEDS TO BE A LOT
00:33:43MORE SUPPORT AND THOUGHT THAT'S PUT INTO THAT.
00:33:47YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD MAKE,
00:33:49YOU KNOW, EXCITING. I THINK THAT THERE ARE FOLKS WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO DO IT.
00:33:54ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE CYBER FORCE COMMISSION REPORT THAT WE
00:33:57DID IN TERMS OF STRUCTURE AND NOT EFFORT, FOR INSTANCE, WAS TO
00:34:00HAVE A CYBER NATIONAL GUARD AS
00:34:02PART OF THE SERVICE WITH THE THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW,
00:34:06OBVIOUSLY THE CYBER NATIONAL GUARD IN CALIFORNIA IS GOING TO BE LIKE, INCREDIBLE. RIGHT?
00:34:09BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN VOLUNTEER HOUR PART TIME AND WORK.
00:34:13BUT I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT BOTH ON THE CIVILIAN AND THE MILITARY SIDE IN ORDER
00:34:17TO HAVE THE TECHNICAL TALENT THAT WE NEED TO DO THIS AND TO
00:34:21WORK WITH INDUSTRY.
00:34:23MCKENZIE I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU.
00:34:26SO AS WE HEARD FROM THE REPRESENTATIVE, THERE IS AT
00:34:29LEAST SOME DESIRE TO DO SOMETHING QUICKLY ON THESE ISSUES.
00:34:32BUT I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD SAY THAT CONGRESS IS ABLE TO
00:34:36EXECUTE ON THAT, PARTICULARLY WELL.
00:34:38SO IS THE SORT OF RESIDENT LEGAL EXPERT ON THE PANEL AND REALLY
00:34:42CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT COULD THE U.S.
00:34:46EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN PARTICULAR DO ON THIS ISSUE NOW?
00:34:49AND WHAT STEPS COULD IT TAKE?
00:34:52YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN THAT THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS BEEN
00:34:55WILLING TO TAKE QUITE LIBERAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THINGS LIKE
00:34:58EXPORT CONTROL LAW FOR EXAMPLE, AND THEY IMPLEMENTED MODEL
00:35:02RESTRICTION BANS ON ACCESS TO ANTHROPIC MODELS BY FOREIGN
00:35:07NATIONALS. SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH COULD DO
00:35:09AND THEN WHAT MIGHT REQUIRE
00:35:12LEGISLATIVE ACTION? YEAH.
00:35:14JUST TO SORT OF GROUND THINGS, RIGHT? THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN THE US
00:35:18FOR THE MOST PART, CAN ONLY DO THINGS THAT ARE GRANTED THE
00:35:22AUTHORITY BY CONGRESS, RIGHT? THERE ARE SOME OTHER THINGS THAT THE THE CONSTITUTION THAT HAS
00:35:25SOME BACKGROUND POWERS, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, YOU HAVE TO EXPLICITLY SAY YOU ARE
00:35:28AUTHORIZED TO DO X AND WITH MODERN COURTS THAT AUTHORIZATION
00:35:32ALSO HAS TO BE PRETTY EXPLICIT AND PRETTY CLEAR. OTHERWISE, COURTS ARE GOING TO BE SKEPTICAL OF IT.
00:35:36THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN
00:35:39DO AND SORT OF MAYBE FALL TO EXTREMES.
00:35:42THERE'S ALL THE SOFT POWER STUFF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS QUITE A
00:35:45BIT, AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN START RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?
00:35:48THERE'S ALL THE THEY CAN MEET WITH INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES AND
00:35:51TRY TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO IMPROVE THEIR STANDARDS.
00:35:53I WOULDN'T DISMISS THAT. EVEN WITHOUT THREAT, THERE'S
00:35:57JUST SOMETHING TO MANY COMPANIES WANT TO DO BETTER IN THESE
00:36:00VARIOUS RESPECTS. AND ONE OF THE BIG CONSTRAINTS
00:36:03IS NOT EXPECTING THAT THEIR COMPETITORS WILL DO THE SAME.
00:36:06HAVING THE WEIGHT OF THE US GOVERNMENT BEHIND THIS IS REALLY
00:36:09HELPFUL AND IN MOVING FORWARD SOME OF THOSE STANDARDS AND THEY
00:36:13CAN ALSO SORT OF IMPROVE THEIR OWN CAPACITY AS SORT OF AN
00:36:17INFORMATION PROCESSOR OR, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO RESPOND TO FUTURE EVENTS.
00:36:19MAYBE THIS OVERLAPS WITH SOME OF YOUR YOUR EX MATH. RIGHT.
00:36:23BUT FIGURING OUT IT'S NOT OBVIOUS WHERE IS GOING TO BE THE
00:36:27LOCUS OF POWER AROUND AI AND THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE A
00:36:29LOT OF WORK AROUND HIRING AND FIGURING OUT SORT OF CHAINS OF
00:36:34COMMAND AND WHO'S GETTING WHAT AND WHO'S IN CHARGE OF WHAT. THAT WE CAN START NOW EVEN IN
00:36:37ADVANCE OF LEGISLATION AND
00:36:40THERE'S ALSO, I GUESS, SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN SOFT POWER AND
00:36:42SOMETHING A BIT MORE CONSTRUCTIVE. THERE'S EVERYTHING THE FEDERAL
00:36:46GOVERNMENT CAN DO IN TERMS OF CONTRACTING IN PROCUREMENT. RIGHT.
00:36:50CREATING THINGS IN THE REAL
00:36:52WORLD, CREATING DEMAND AND INCENTIVES TO SORT OF
00:36:57DIFFERENTIALLY ACCELERATE CERTAIN TYPES OF SAFETY TECHNOLOGY. I THINK THERE'S A LOT TO BE DONE
00:37:01THERE. AND I THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THAT SOON. AND ON THE OTHER END OF THINGS,
00:37:04THERE IS A LOT OF THIS SORT OF HAMMER HARD POWER WAYS OF
00:37:09INTERVENING. AND THIS IS MAYBE WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING WITH SORT OF INTERPRETING EXISTING POWERS
00:37:13CREATIVELY. AND ONE OF THE BIG DILEMMAS THERE IS JUST THAT THE
00:37:17AUTHORITIES THAT ARE GIVEN TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH THAT CAN BE USED IN A RATHER GENERAL
00:37:21FASHION, TEND TO BE MADE FOR
00:37:23EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES. RIGHT. AND IT CREATES A STRONG
00:37:27INCENTIVE TO TREAT EVERYTHING LIKE AN EMERGENCY OR TO TREAT EVERYTHING LIKE SOMETHING THAT
00:37:32REQUIRES QUITE, QUITE INTENSE REACTIONS. AND THAT SORT OF INCENTIVIZES
00:37:35THESE VERY CREATIVE REACTIONS. SO WHETHER IT'S EXPORT CONTROLS
00:37:38OR SANCTIONS OR SUPPLY CHAIN
00:37:41RISK DESIGNATIONS OR OTHER THINGS, YOU HAVE A PRETTY BLUNT
00:37:45TOOL AND INCENTIVIZES YOU TO USE IT BLUNTLY.
00:37:47AND THE THING THAT'S MISSING THAT YOU REALLY NEED
00:37:50CONGRESSIONAL ACTION ON IS ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES A
00:37:53SUSTAINED RELATIONSHIP WITH INDUSTRY, ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES
00:37:56RULEMAKING AND REGULATION. ANYTHING WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO
00:37:59MAKE TRADEOFFS OVER CAREFUL BALANCES OF WHAT SORT OF SAFETY
00:38:02PRACTICES ARE BEST AND WHEN WHEN, WHEN SHOULD THEY BE
00:38:05IMPLEMENTED AND WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR DOING SO. ALL THOSE THINGS UPDATE ALL THE
00:38:09TIME. THEY REQUIRE QUITE A BIT OF PREDICTABILITY. THEY REQUIRE QUITE A BIT OF
00:38:13EXPERTISE. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT AN AUTHORIZATION BY CONGRESS.
00:38:16AND ALLOCATIONS OF FUNDS FROM CONGRESS. AND SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHERE THINGS ARE GOING TO GO.
00:38:20YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FILL IN THAT MIDDLE CATEGORY. AND IN THE MEANTIME, THERE ARE
00:38:23SOME VERY PRODUCTIVE THINGS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN DO IN
00:38:27TERMS OF ITS SOFT POWER.
00:38:29SO BEFORE WE TURN TO QUESTIONS, I WANTED THERE WAS ONE LAST
00:38:32QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK EVERYONE. MATT, I CAN START WITH YOU AND
00:38:36SORT OF GO DOWN THE LINE. AND THAT IS THAT I'M REALLY
00:38:38INTERESTED IN SORT OF 1 OR 2
00:38:41CONCRETE POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS YOU WOULD YOU WOULD MAKE TO
00:38:45ADDRESS THESE CONTAINMENT ISSUES AND, AND I GUESS I'M AGNOSTIC ON
00:38:47WHETHER THAT'S LEGISLATIVE OR EXECUTIVE BRANCH OR STATE OR
00:38:51FEDERAL. BUT JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK WOULD BE REALLY PRODUCTIVE TO DO
00:38:55IN THIS SITUATION? YEAH. SO I THINK I THINK CLEARLY LIKE,
00:38:59YOU KNOW, UPDATING REPORTING IS GOING TO BE ESSENTIAL AND NOT
00:39:03JUST IN A CHECK BOX WAY, BUT IN
00:39:06A WAY THAT ENSURES THAT THE
00:39:08RIGHT TELEMETRY AND RECORDS ARE
00:39:10THERE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN
00:39:12THESE IN THESE SITUATIONS, AS CAME UP IN THE HUGGY FACE
00:39:16INCIDENT, YOU KNOW, THE AGENTS CAN BE REALLY GOOD AT EVADING
00:39:20THIS AND CAN SORT OF ALMOST SEEM TO CONSCIOUSLY DO IT RIGHT IN A
00:39:22WAY THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT TYPE OF TELEMETRY.
00:39:26AND THEN I WOULD GO BACK TO
00:39:28ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, FROM A CONGRESSIONAL PERSPECTIVE,
00:39:32ACTUALLY SORT OF PROVIDING
00:39:34FUNDING AND AND HARD DOLLARS FOR
00:39:36SOME OF THESE SHARED DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES, SOME OF THAT
00:39:40DEMAND POLL THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK THAT THERE'S THERE'S
00:39:43SORT OF NO NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THAT IN THIS CASE, PARTICULARLY
00:39:47WHERE THE GOVERNMENT CAN SORT OF USE IT TOWARD THE PROVIDING
00:39:51PUBLIC GOODS IN A WAY THAT THAT
00:39:53INDUSTRY IS AS AS GRADED AS IT IS, IS AND ISN'T AS SUITED TO DO.
00:39:59AND PICKING UP ON WHAT MATT SAID. RIGHT. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF FIXES
00:40:02THAT WE CAN MAKE AROUND INCIDENT REPORTING, AND THAT STARTS WITH
00:40:06MAKING SURE THE CATEGORIES OF
00:40:08WHAT IS REPORTED ARE BROADER AND THAT SOME OF THEM EXIST PRE HARM, MAKING SURE THAT YOU HAVE
00:40:13INVESTIGATORY POWERS AND RULE MAKING. SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS OF WHAT HAPPENED AND
00:40:17THEN SORTING OUT HOW THAT INFORMATION IS GOING TO BE SHARED BETWEEN DIFFERENT
00:40:21GOVERNMENTS AND WITH THE PUBLIC. AND I THINK WE'RE ALSO GOING
00:40:23HAVE TO THINK MORE SERIOUSLY ABOUT MONITORING THAT WILL BE
00:40:28COSTLY AT TIMES, AND IT'S GOING TO BE AN UNRESOLVED TECHNICAL QUESTION.
00:40:31SO I DON'T I DON'T HAVE AN IMMEDIATE RECOMMENDATION TO IT FOR WHAT TO IMPLEMENT NOW.
00:40:35BUT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO PUT OURSELVES ON A POLICY TRACK WHERE WE'RE STARTING TO
00:40:39FIGURE THAT OUT AND STARTING TO TREAT THIS AS A SERIOUS PART OF
00:40:41THE PUZZLE THAT IT ISN'T JUST REPORTING THINGS, IT'S ABOUT
00:40:44MAKING IT MORE LIKELY THAT YOU DETECT THEM AND THAT YOU HAVE ENOUGH DATA ON WHAT IS OCCURRING
00:40:49SUCH THAT YOU CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT AFTER. YEAH, I THINK THE TWO I WOULD
00:40:53GIVE ONE IS FIXING THE BLINDSPOT THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW AROUND
00:40:55INTERNAL USE OF A.I. WITHIN THESE COMPANIES. SO AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED TO
00:40:59SHIFT FROM A MINDSET OF KIND OF PRODUCT SAFETY, OF MAKING SURE
00:41:02NEW MODELS ARE SAFE BEFORE THEY'RE RELEASED WIDELY TO
00:41:06INSTEAD RECOGNIZING THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE DOING QUITE RISKY RESEARCH INTERNALLY AND THEY'RE
00:41:09MAKING THEIR CONSTANTLY MAKING RISK APPETITE JUDGMENTS ABOUT
00:41:13HOW DO WE PROCEED, HOW CAREFUL DO WE NEED TO BE, HOW MUCH MORE INFORMATION DO WE NEED?
00:41:17AND SO I THINK THERE'S A RANGE OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU COULD
00:41:20GET MORE VISIBILITY, MORE
00:41:22OVERSIGHT INTO WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. SO, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED IT'S
00:41:26THE REPORTING AND SORT OF EXPANDING OUR ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THINGS GO WRONG.
00:41:29I THINK A DIFFERENT THING THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY VALUABLE
00:41:32IS TO HAVE FIND SOME WAY TO MAKE
00:41:35THE COMPANIES SHARE MUCH MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HOW ARE
00:41:38THEY MAKING THESE JUDGMENTS? WHAT DOES THEIR RESEARCH PROCESS
00:41:42LOOK LIKE? HOW ARE THEY? WHY THE HELL WAS OPENAI NOT MONITORING THESE DEPLOYMENTS
00:41:46THAT THEY WERE THAT WERE BEHIND THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK?
00:41:50HOW YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF SORT OF DECISION MAKING AND
00:41:54INTERPRETATION OF EVIDENCE THAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THE COMPANIES RIGHT NOW THAT REALLY SHOULD BE
00:41:57EXPOSED TO MUCH MORE SUNLIGHT WOULD ALSO ALLOW FOR MORE HARMONIZATION. BUT, YOU KNOW, INSIDE THE
00:42:01INDUSTRY AND WHAT IS SORT OF APPROPRIATE PRACTICES AND WOULD
00:42:04ALSO ALLOW FOR SORT OF CIVIL SOCIETY AND EXTERNAL EXPERTS TO
00:42:07UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING. MORE TO SAY ON THAT.
00:42:10BUT I THINK THE SORT OF BROAD CATEGORY OF GETTING THAT INTERNAL RISKY RESEARCH OUT OF
00:42:14THE DARKNESS AND INTO THE INTO
00:42:16MORE PUBLIC LIGHT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. AND THEN ANOTHER ONE, I THINK IS
00:42:20WE HAVE THIS TRUMP XI SUMMIT
00:42:22COMING UP, U.S., CHINA SUMMIT AT
00:42:25THE WHITE HOUSE IN A FEW WEEKS. I THINK SEPTEMBER 24TH IS THE
00:42:28DATE AND ON THE US SIDE AND YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN INDUSTRY,
00:42:32THEY'RE CONSTANTLY BRINGING UP WELL, BUT WE CAN'T DO THIS. WE CAN'T DO THAT. WE WISH WE COULD.
00:42:35BUT CHINA, WE WISH WE COULD, BUT THEN CHINA WILL BEAT US. AND I THINK IF WE'RE ACTUALLY
00:42:39SERIOUS, IF THEY'RE SERIOUS ABOUT THE LEVEL OF RISK THAT THEY THINK AI POSES, THAT, YOU
00:42:44KNOW, PEOPLE INSIDE THE COMPANIES THINK WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING IS VERY RISKY, BUT
00:42:47THEY'RE RACING TO DO IT ANYWAY, BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T, CHINA WILL.
00:42:50AND IF WE THINK THAT IS THE SITUATION, THEN THAT IS A CONVERSATION WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY START TO HAVE WITH
00:42:54CHINA AND SAY, HEY, DO YOU THINK YOUR COMPANIES ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE THIS RISKY?
00:42:57HOW CAN WE YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED ANY KIND OF DEAL BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS SO
00:43:01MUCH AS JUST AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS IS A RISKY SITUATION.
00:43:05YOU KNOW, THE US NEEDS TO LOOK BETTER AND DO BETTER IN TERMS OF
00:43:08HOW U.S. INDUSTRY IS HANDLING THESE RISKS. MAYBE CHINA NEEDS TO DO BETTER,
00:43:11HOW IT'S HANDLING THESE KINDS OF RISKS. THAT IS A CONVERSATION THAT HAS SORT OF GOTTEN OFF TO SOME VERY,
00:43:15VERY BABY STEPS. STARTS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
00:43:19YEARS. AND I HOPE THERE CAN BE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS. YEAH.
00:43:23IF I COULD JUST PIGGYBACK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MY PROGRAM DOES A LOT OF TRACK TO
00:43:27TRACK 1.5 DIALOGS WITH THE PRC, INCLUDING ON CYBER AND SOME OF THESE ISSUES.
00:43:31AND I DO THINK THAT THERE IS AN INTEREST AND A WILLINGNESS ON
00:43:34THE PRC SIDE TO POTENTIALLY TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS NOW.
00:43:38I WOULDN'T SORT OF MISTAKE THAT FOR GUARANTEED PROGRESS. RIGHT. THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
00:43:41OBSTACLES, BUT I DO THINK THAT
00:43:43IF WE DID HAVE THAT ATTENTION
00:43:46SORT OF AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS, AND THAT INCLUDES THE PRESIDENT
00:43:50IN THESE INTERACTIONS, I DO THINK THAT IT WOULD BE AN AREA THAT'S RIPE FOR MAKING SOME
00:43:54PROGRESS, AT LEAST POTENTIALLY.
00:43:56SO SO EVERYONE'S MENTIONED
00:43:58INCIDENT REPORTING IN SOME WAY. I WANTED TO ASK A FOLLOW UP QUESTION, WHICH HAS TO DO WITH
00:44:03COMPLIANCE. SO IT'S ONE THING TO SORT OF MANDATE THAT, YOU KNOW, A
00:44:06CERTAIN SET OF INCIDENTS NEED TO
00:44:09BE REPORTED, BUT THERE'S THIS PHENOMENON, RIGHT?
00:44:11LIKE THE TRAIN, THE FORCE, AND IT FALLS AND NO ONE SEES IT.
00:44:14DID IT REALLY FALL? IF AN INCIDENT HAPPENS AND IT'S
00:44:18ONLY INTERNAL OR IT DOESN'T AFFECT ANY THIRD PARTIES,
00:44:21THERE'S THERE'S INCENTIVES FOR COMPANIES NOT TO REPORT THAT.
00:44:25SO FROM A COMPLIANCE
00:44:27PERSPECTIVE, HOW DO WE ENSURE THAT WE ARE GETTING ALL THE
00:44:31RELEVANT INFORMATION, EVEN IF WE DO HAVE MANDATES? THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN
00:44:36THINKING ABOUT MORE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS AND WITH
00:44:38REFERENCE TO REPORTING AND OTHER AREAS LIKE AVIATION.
00:44:41SO A COUPLE OF THINGS YOU CAN DO.
00:44:43ONE, IN MANY OTHER CONTEXTS, THE
00:44:46REPORTING GOES TO NOT THE REGULATOR, RIGHT?
00:44:49TO SOME OTHER ENTITY THAT DOES NOT HAVE RULEMAKING AUTHORITY OVER THEM BECAUSE IT IS LESS
00:44:53LIKELY THAT THE HAMMER WILL COME DOWN ON YOU IF THE INFORMATION IS PROVIDED NOT TO THE
00:44:57REGULATOR. RIGHT. THIS HAS SOME TRADE OFFS TO IT,
00:44:59BUT THIS IS A TRADEOFF THAT THEY'VE MADE IN SOME OTHER CONTEXT TO MAKE IT MORE LIKELY
00:45:03THAT THERE ARE FULL DISCLOSURES. AND THEN IN TERMS OF INCENTIVES,
00:45:05YOU KIND OF THE WHOLE SORT OF
00:45:09DECISIONS SPACE, I THINK ONE THAT WILL COME TO MIND IF PEOPLE VERY EARLY ON IS THAT YOU CAN
00:45:12OFFER LIABILITY, SAFE HARBORS AND OTHER THINGS IN RETURN FOR REPORTING.
00:45:16I THINK THIS CREATES PRETTY PERVERSE INCENTIVES RIGHT, TO
00:45:20INCLUDE ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN YOUR INITIAL DISCLOSURE AND TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM THINGS
00:45:24THAT YOU SHOULD LEGITIMATELY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR. THERE ARE OTHER VERSIONS OF THAT
00:45:28WHERE WHAT YOU INSTEAD DO IS CREATE NEGATIVE INFERENCES.
00:45:30SO IF YOU DO NOT PROVIDE THE INFORMATION AND IT LATER COMES
00:45:34UP IN LITIGATION THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF THIS AND NOT PROVIDED,
00:45:37THAT WE WILL DRAW AN INFERENCE THAT YOU HAD.
00:45:40IN FACT, YOU HAD INTENT OR YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE OR SATISFIED ALL OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS.
00:45:44THERE. I THINK THAT'S MORE PROMISING.
00:45:47YOU CAN ALSO ADD TO THAT SORT OF
00:45:49PROMISES THAT WHOEVER RECEIVES THE INFORMATION WILL NOT USE IT
00:45:53DIRECTLY TO PURSUE ALLEGATIONS THEMSELVES. RIGHT.
00:45:56IT'S A REALLY TRICKY THING, BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE IN OTHER CONTEXTS AND I THINK THAT WE
00:46:00SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IT MORE. YEAH, I THINK TO PICK UP ON THAT, YOU YOU NEED TO SEPARATE THE TWO SITUATIONS.
00:46:05WHICH ONE IS WHERE AN INCIDENT CAUSES ACTUAL HARM OR DAMAGE.
00:46:09RIGHT. AND IN THAT CASE, WE HAVE YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT AREAS THAT THE FEDERAL
00:46:12GOVERNMENT OR STATE GOVERNMENTS REGULATE SO THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE INCENTIVES THAT ESSENTIALLY MAKE IT MUCH WORSE.
00:46:16IF YOU DON'T REPORT IN THAT SITUATION VERSUS WHERE THERE ISN'T ACTUAL HARM.
00:46:21BUT WE JUST NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT, RIGHT? LIKE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IN
00:46:24TERMS OF THAT FEEDBACK LOOP AND LESSONS LEARNED.
00:46:27AND THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY,
00:46:30SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE HAMMER, IS SO, SO IMPORTANT.
00:46:34AND CAN I ADD AS WELL, I THINK IN THIS INDUSTRY AS WELL, AGAIN, WITH A VERY ACTIVIST EMPLOYEES
00:46:38WHO ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEIR OWN COMPANIES ARE
00:46:40DOING, THIS ALSO GIVES A HOOK FOR WHISTLEBLOWING. IF THERE'S SORT OF A CLEAR LEGAL
00:46:44OBLIGATION TO REPORT SOMETHING AND THE COMPANY DOESN'T, THEN EITHER YOU COULD BUILD THAT
00:46:48INTO, YOU KNOW, INTO NEW LEGISLATION OR PERHAPS YOU WOULD KNOW BETTER THAT PERHAPS THERE'S
00:46:52EXISTING PROTECTIONS FOR IF THE COMPANY IS NOT COMPLYING WITH A LEGAL OBLIGATION, THAT GIVES YOU MUCH MORE STANDING AS A
00:46:56POTENTIAL WHISTLEBLOWER. THAT'S REALLY HELPFUL.
00:46:59SO WE DO HAVE AUDIENCE QUESTIONS. SO I'M GOING TO I'M GOING TO TURN TO THOSE.
00:47:04THE FIRST QUESTION IS FOR MACKENZIE AND IT'S FROM CHRIS
00:47:07COCHRANE AND IS BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, HELEN MENTIONED IN HER OPENING
00:47:12COMMENTS THAT IT WASN'T CLEAR IF A FELONY WAS COMMITTED RELATING
00:47:15TO THE HUGGING FACE INCIDENT SINCE THE ACTS WERE CARRIED OUT
00:47:19BY AN AUTONOMOUS AGENT RATHER THAN ANY HUMAN.
00:47:23SO WHAT'S YOUR BEST UNDERSTANDING OF HOW LIABILITY
00:47:25WORKS FOR CRIMES COMMITTED BY AGENTS?
00:47:29IF THERE'S ANY CLARITY AT ALL? YEAH, REALLY EASY QUESTION. LET'S GET THROUGH IT.
00:47:34MAYBE CATCH US IN THREE HOURS.
00:47:35SO MAYBE FOR SEPARATE IT RIGHT.
00:47:38THERE'S TORT LIABILITY, CIVIL
00:47:40LIABILITY AND OTHER FINES. THERE'S CRIMINAL LIABILITY RIGHT THERE.
00:47:44ALL DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF THINGS. ONE THING THAT PEOPLE HAVE
00:47:47TALKED ABOUT A BUNCH, INCLUDING IF YOU WANT TO LOOK UP SOME OR
00:47:51INCURS COMMENTS ON THE RECENT
00:47:53BREACHES ONLINE, HE PROVIDES SOME GOOD COMMENTARY THERE ON
00:47:56THE CFA, WHICH IS THE COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE ACT.
00:47:59WHENEVER YOU HAVE A CRIMINAL STATUTE OR LEGISLATIVELY
00:48:04ESTABLISH LIABILITY, YOU OFTEN HAVE SOME SORT OF INTENT BAR
00:48:08RIGHT? I THINK IN THAT CASE, FOR THE RELEVANT PROVISIONS, IT'S KNOWING, RIGHT?
00:48:11SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ACCESS
00:48:15SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO ACCESS.
00:48:18MY COLLEAGUES ARE GOING TO BE ROLLING THEIR EYES AT MY MY LACK
00:48:21OF MEMORY ON THIS. AND THAT'S REALLY HARD WHEN YOU HAVE AN AGENT, RIGHT.
00:48:25IN THIS CASE, THE AGENT ITSELF
00:48:27DOES NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE IN THE SENSE THAT WE ASCRIBE TO HUMANS
00:48:31THE COMPANY ITSELF. IF ANYTHING, MUCH TO OUR
00:48:35DETRIMENT, WAS UNAWARE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING.
00:48:37YOU COULD ARGUE ABOUT WHETHER THEY HAVE CONSTRUCTIVE KNOWLEDGE
00:48:41BECAUSE THEY HAD SEEN SIMILAR EVENTS LIKE THIS, PERHAPS IN THE PAST.
00:48:44BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S SUFFICIENT UNDER THE STATUTE. LONG WAY OF SAYING WHY ARE THE
00:48:48FEW LAWS WE HAVE THAT MIGHT BE
00:48:50RELEVANT HERE DOESN'T SEEM LIKE
00:48:53THE ELEMENTS ARE SATISFIED. THEN WHEN YOU GO TO TORT
00:48:57LIABILITY, THIS GOES BACK TO THAT QUESTION OF YOU ACTUALLY NEED A HARM, RIGHT?
00:49:00THE WAY THAT YOU HAVE TORT LIABILITY IS THAT YOU ARE COMPENSATING FOR DAMAGES THAT
00:49:05ACTUALLY HAPPENED. THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU ACTUALLY
00:49:08DID HAVE INJURY AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE A PLAINTIFF WHO'S
00:49:11WILLING TO BRING A CASE. I WON'T PUT WORDS IN ANYONE'S
00:49:14MOUTH, BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S POWER THAT YOU FACE HAS NOT
00:49:18INITIATED LITIGATION AGAINST OPENING. I. THAT COULD BE GOOD REASONS FOR DOING THAT.
00:49:22GOOD REASONS AGAINST DOING IT.
00:49:24BUT IT MEANS THAT WE WON'T ACTUALLY GET A CASE.
00:49:27WE WON'T GET DISCOVERY. WE WON'T LEARN MORE THROUGH THE LIABILITY PROCESS THERE.
00:49:31SO I THINK IN A CASE LIKE THIS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE LIABILITY.
00:49:37OKAY. I SUSPECT THAT THE AUDIENCE MIGHT HAVE SOME FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS THERE.
00:49:40BUT BUT YOU KNOW, I WASN'T EXPECTING YOU TO BE ABLE TO
00:49:45SOLVE THE ISSUE OF A LIABILITY IN 30S.
00:49:47THE NEXT QUESTION IS FROM WILL
00:49:50TOP AND HOME OF NEXT PILLAR
00:49:52CAPITAL AND AND THIS IS FOR ANY OF YOU TO ANSWER.
00:49:56I MEAN, THIS IS A QUESTION BASICALLY ABOUT US-CHINA COMPETITION.
00:50:00SO WE'VE ALREADY SEEN BECAUSE OF SOME NEW REGULATORY SORT OF
00:50:04MECHANISMS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN DELAYS AND RELEASE OF US MODELS.
00:50:06AND THE QUESTION IS, IS BASICALLY A CONCERN THAT MODELS
00:50:10RELEASED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA AREN'T SUBJECTED TO
00:50:13THE SAME KINDS OF REQUIREMENTS.
00:50:15SO WHAT CAN WE DO TO IMPLEMENT
00:50:17SORT OF NECESSARY REPORTING AND
00:50:20CYBERSECURITY REQUIREMENTS FOR
00:50:24US LABS WITHOUT NECESSARILY CREATING A PROBLEMATIC
00:50:28BOTTLENECK IN TERMS OF COMPETITION FROM CHINA?
00:50:32I, I MEAN, I WOULD SAY HERE THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY THINK THE RIGHT APPROACH IS A DIFFERENT ONE,
00:50:35WHICH IS THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE
00:50:38MOTIVATED ARE OR I GUESS THERE'S
00:50:41DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT PIECES HERE. BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE
00:50:44INTERVENING IN THE U.S. INDUSTRY
00:50:47DUE TO CONCERNS THAT WOULD ALSO
00:50:49CONCERN CHINA, I THINK THE RIGHT APPROACH IS NOT TO TRY AND JUST
00:50:53SKIP THAT AND JUST LET THINGS PROCEED, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE
00:50:56SIGNIFICANT CONCERNS ABOUT RISKS, THE COMPANIES ARE TALKING ABOUT THEMSELVES. BUT INSTEAD IS TO TRY AND BUILD
00:51:00MORE OF A SHARED UNDERSTANDING WITH THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT OF
00:51:03THIS IS IN FACT A RISK THAT SHOULD CONCERN YOU AS WELL.
00:51:06I THINK FOR A BUNCH OF REASONS, THERE IS A MUCH MORE SORT OF
00:51:10WELL-ESTABLISHED AND INFLUENTIAL COMMUNITY INSIDE THE USA AI
00:51:14INDUSTRY THAT THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT KIND OF MAJOR RISKS FROM
00:51:16HIGHLY ADVANCED AI SYSTEMS.
00:51:18AND THAT IS STARTING TO BE MORE THAT IS STARTING TO DEVELOP IN
00:51:22CHINA, BUT IT'S SORT OF STARTING FROM A LOWER BASE. SO I THINK THINGS LIKE THE KINDS
00:51:26OF DIALOG THAT ARE PLANNED BETWEEN THE LEADERS OF THE TWO
00:51:30COUNTRIES ARE TO SAY, HEY, HERE IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, HERE IS WHY.
00:51:33HERE'S WHY WE ARE CONCERNED AND NOT EXPECTING CHINA TO DO ANYTHING OUT OF LOVE FOR THE
00:51:36U.S. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY RIDICULOUS. BUT EXPECTING CHINA TO RECOGNIZE
00:51:40ITS OWN SELF-INTEREST AND THE REASONS THAT THE CHINESE
00:51:43COMMUNIST PARTY PROBABLY DOESN'T WANT IT. MANY OF THE SAME KINDS OF RISKS
00:51:46TO BE INTEREST TO EVENTUATE AS AS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DOES.
00:51:49I THINK THAT'S THAT'S REALLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE SORT OF MAJOR CATASTROPHIC AND
00:51:55ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, RISKS WHERE YOU HAVE A VERY ADVANCED AI AS A THREAT ACTOR. I THINK THAT'S THE APPROACH.
00:51:59THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER SORT OF MORE PRAGMATIC, PROSAIC, POTENTIAL REASONS THAT YOU MIGHT
00:52:02WANT TO REGULATE THE SECTOR WHERE IT DEFINITELY DOES MAKE SENSE TO BE LOOKING FOR MORE
00:52:06STREAMLINED, YOU KNOW, APPROACHES THAT THAT DON'T
00:52:08CREATE FRICTION. YEAH. I WOULD START BY PUSHING BACK ON
00:52:12THE PREMISE OF THE QUESTION, WHICH IS THAT I THINK THE PRC IS
00:52:16GOING TO DO THIS. I THINK ALL THE SIGNS ARE THAT
00:52:18THEY'RE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING AND TALKING TO OTHER FRONTIER
00:52:22LABS ABOUT IT AND THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE A STRONG RECORD
00:52:26OF REGULATING. I THINK THEY BASICALLY JUST LIKE CRUSHED THEIR COMPANION SECTOR
00:52:30DOMESTICALLY BECAUSE THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT RESEARCH. SO I DO THINK THAT THAT MAKES IT
00:52:33AN AREA THAT'S RIPE FOR HAVING AN AGREEMENT. I MEAN, IN TERMS OF INDUSTRY'S
00:52:38CONCERNS ABOUT IT, I THINK THOSE ARE LEGITIMATE, TOO. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT
00:52:40THAT EO THAT LAID OUT SORT OF A VOLUNTARY APPROACH WAS THAT A
00:52:44COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO NOW, YOU KNOW, INITIALLY IT HAD 90 DAYS
00:52:48WAS GOING TO BE THE REVIEW. AND OUR INDUSTRY HAD A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT THAT.
00:52:52AND I'M SOMEWHAT SYMPATHETIC LIKE THAT'S AN ETERNITY RIGHT, IN THIS INDUSTRY.
00:52:55AND SO I THINK IT COMES BACK TO THAT CONVERSATION WE WERE HAVING
00:52:58ABOUT REALLY ENSURING AND HAVING THE ADMINISTRATION MAKE THOSE
00:53:02INVESTMENTS AND SEND THE RIGHT SIGNALS ABOUT HAVING THE TECHNICAL TALENT IN THE FEDERAL
00:53:07GOVERNMENT THAT CAN REVIEW THINGS VERY QUICKLY SO THAT WE
00:53:11DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, 60 OR 90 DAY WINDOWS THAT, AGAIN, I
00:53:14UNDERSTAND WHY INDUSTRY DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE TO WAIT THAT LONG.
00:53:18MCKENZIE ANYTHING YOU YOU WANT TO ADD, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE
00:53:22PLENTY OF SMART COMMENTS ALREADY. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT QUESTION IS FROM MIKE
00:53:26HARRIGAN OF MITER. AND IT'S A QUESTION BASICALLY
00:53:29ABOUT SORT OF INVESTIGATIONS AND
00:53:32SORT OF REGULATORY SORT OF ISSUES.
00:53:35WE'VE SEEN IN THE WAY THAT INVESTIGATIONS HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN FEDERAL
00:53:39GOVERNMENT BEFORE. SO BASICALLY, ARE YOU CONCERNED
00:53:43THAT GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS INTO AIR SAFETY INCIDENTS MIGHT
00:53:46FALL VICTIM TO SOME OF THE PITFALLS WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER
00:53:49FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS MENTIONS
00:53:53POLITICIZING POLITICIZATION OR THE PERCEPTION THEREOF OF
00:53:57INVESTIGATION INTO PARTICULAR COMPANIES OR ACCIDENTS? I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY
00:54:00HEIGHTENED BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN THE ADMINISTRATION SORT OF TAKE
00:54:04SPECIFIC ACTIONS AGAINST SPECIFIC COMPANIES.
00:54:06BUT I'LL SORT OF ADD MY OWN TAKE, WHICH IS THERE.
00:54:09THERE'S ALSO THE ISSUE OF SORT OF REGULATORY CAPTURE.
00:54:12SO I'M CURIOUS ABOUT BOTH OF
00:54:14THOSE ISSUES AS YOU THINK ABOUT
00:54:17SORT OF THE RIGHT MECHANISM FOR BOTH THE REPORTING OF
00:54:20INFORMATION AND INVESTIGATING INCIDENTS. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
00:54:23THIS IS A REAL CONCERN.
00:54:25AND I THINK ALSO AT THE SAME TIME, IT CAN BE EASY TO
00:54:29OVERESTIMATE HOW OFTEN THIS IS TO HAPPEN BASED OFF OF THE LAST
00:54:32COUPLE OF YEARS. I THINK IF YOU ASKED THIS QUESTION FIVE YEARS AGO OR
00:54:36SOMETHING, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THE TRADE WAS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.
00:54:39I THINK THAT AT LEAST NOT TO SAY
00:54:41THAT WE WILL GRAVITATE BACK TOWARDS THE MEAN.
00:54:44BUT IT'S ALSO TO SAY MOST EXECUTIVE BRANCH POWERS CAN BE
00:54:47ABUSED IN VARIOUS WAYS. YOU CAN TRY TO MAKE IT MORE
00:54:51DIFFICULT OR MORE COSTLY TO ABUSE THEM. BUT THIS IS, IN FACT, IS A TRADE
00:54:55OFF THAT IS INHERENT TO ANY AMOUNT OF AND INVESTIGATION
00:54:59LICENSING, REVIEW, RULEMAKING,
00:55:01ETC., IN TERMS OF PREVENTING THAT ABUSE, THOUGH, I THINK WHAT
00:55:05WE'RE GOING TO END UP WITH IS SOME SORT OF TIERED SYSTEM, RIGHT?
00:55:08WHERE FOR MOST INCIDENTS, ESPECIALLY WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE
00:55:11HARM, WHERE YOU'RE ONLY GETTING AS SOME INITIAL NOTIFICATION AND
00:55:14THEN PROBABLY SOME AMOUNT OF VOLUNTARY BACK AND FORTH OF INFORMATION. RIGHT.
00:55:18IT'S ONLY AS YOU SORT OF ESCALATE UP THAT UP THAT CHAIN
00:55:22WHERE I THINK WE'LL NEED INVESTIGATIONS. AND I THINK THERE IF YOU JUST THINK CONCRETELY ABOUT WHAT IF
00:55:26YOU HAD AN INCIDENT WHERE THERE ACTUALLY WAS HARM, I THINK WE'D
00:55:29SAY, OH, WE DEFINITELY NEED INVESTIGATIVE POWERS. RIGHT.
00:55:32I THINK THIS IN SOME WAYS IT WILL RESOLVE ITSELF.
00:55:35YOU'LL HAVE SPECIFIC, COMPELLING
00:55:37INCIDENTS THAT REQUIRE THAT.
00:55:40ANYTHING, EVEN YOU WANT TO ADD.
00:55:44I THINK THERE'S ALSO THERE'S ALSO A RANGE OF WAYS THAT THIS KIND OF THING CAN WORK, LIKE CAN
00:55:48BE DESIGNED, THAT THIS KIND OF INVESTIGATION CAN BE DESIGNED.
00:55:50AND SOME OF THE MAYBE MOST SALIENT EXAMPLES OF
00:55:53INVESTIGATIONS ARE THE VERY HIGH LEVEL POLITICAL ONES.
00:55:56BUT THERE'S A LOT OF INDUSTRIES THAT HAVE JUST ONGOING KIND OF
00:55:59SAFETY INCIDENTS, INVESTIGATIONS, LEARNINGS, BEST
00:56:02PRACTICES THAT ARE HAPPENING MORE TO A TECHNICAL LEVEL. SO HERE, YOU KNOW, ONE PLACE MY
00:56:06MIND GOES IS THERE'S BEEN A RECENT DISCUSSION INITIATED BY
00:56:10THIS OFFICE OF GOOGLE OF COULD THERE BE SOME KIND OF GOVERNMENT
00:56:12SUPERVISED SELF-REGULATORY ORGANIZATION FOR FRONTIER AI
00:56:16DEVELOPMENT. THERE YOU COULD IMAGINE A PRETTY IN-DEPTH INVESTIGATION THAT
00:56:19REALLY WOULDN'T BE SORT OF BEING RUN OUT OF VERY HIGH LEVEL POLITICAL ORGANIZATION OR PARTS
00:56:23OF GOVERNMENT, BUT WOULD BE KIND OF HANDLED BY THESE TECHNICAL
00:56:27EXPERTS AT THE TECHNICAL LEVEL. SO AND I THINK OF, YOU KNOW, AVIATION INCIDENTS AS AN EXAMPLE
00:56:31OF A PLACE WHERE THIS HAS WORKED QUITE WELL. AND THERE'S A LOT OF EXISTING
00:56:34PRACTICES ABOUT HOW DO YOU LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FROM ANY
00:56:37GIVEN INCIDENT, INCLUDING BOTH ONES WHERE HARM WAS CAUSED, AS
00:56:40WELL AS AS WELL AS NEAR MISSES? YEAH. I'LL JUST PICK UP ON THAT BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY GOOD POINT
00:56:44FROM HELEN. RIGHT. THIS IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE'VE HANDLED THESE THESE RISKS
00:56:47OF ABUSE IN THE PAST IS THAT WHO
00:56:49YOU PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY IN THE HANDS OF MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?
00:56:53IS THAT PERSON VERY ARE THEY POLITICALLY APPOINTED? ARE THEY EASILY REMOVED?
00:56:56DO THEY HAVE A TECHNICAL BACKGROUND?
00:56:58DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS AN INVESTIGATOR OR A SORT OF A
00:57:02SERIOUS TECHNICAL PERSON WHO'S TRYING TO FIGURE THE QUESTION OUT?
00:57:06OR DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS SOMEONE WHO HAS ADVANCING MORE
00:57:08IDEOLOGICAL OR POLICY BASED PRIORITIES? AND YOU CAN DO THAT WITHIN
00:57:12GOVERNMENT BY PLACING THESE RESPONSIBILITIES WITHIN, SAY,
00:57:17YOU KNOW, YOU COULD FIND PLENTY OF PEOPLE WITHIN THE NSA, THE
00:57:21DOJ, WITHIN PARTS OF THE DLC,
00:57:23LIKE CASEY THAT COULD DO THIS AND WHO WOULD SEE THEMSELVES
00:57:27PRIMARILY AS EXPERTS WHO HAVE A TECHNICAL MANDATE. YOU CAN ALSO DO THIS OUTSIDE OF
00:57:31GOVERNMENT. RIGHT. IF YOU'RE RELYING ON AUDITORS OR OTHER THIRD PARTIES TO LOOK INTO
00:57:35THINGS, THIS PROVIDES SOME LAYER OF INSULATION WHERE THEY'RE NOT AS DIRECTLY CONTROLLED BY THE
00:57:38GOVERNMENT. I THINK YOU ALMOST MAYBE I MEAN,
00:57:42I HAVEN'T I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY WRITTEN A PIECE LIKE THIS, AND I
00:57:45DON'T KNOW IF I FLOYD CONCLUDED YOU ALMOST, YOU KNOW, ALMOST NEEDS TO BE PARTLY OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT, GIVEN THAT WE DON'T
00:57:50HAVE INDEPENDENT AGENCIES ANYMORE. AND THAT'S A CALL THAT THE SUPREME COURT MADE. RIGHT.
00:57:53AND SO THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS WITH A FINRA TYPE ENTITY ABOUT HOW YOU STRUCTURE IT.
00:57:57HOW DO YOU AVOID INDUSTRY CAPTURE? THERE'S A WHOLE OTHER SET OF
00:58:00PROBLEMS, BUT AT LEAST THE INDEPENDENCE ASPECT OF IT COULD
00:58:03BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
00:58:06I MEAN, MY VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT LIKE COMPARING HOW TO
00:58:10MANAGE TO LIKE A SINGLE EXAMPLE, ALL OF HOW WE'VE DONE IN THE
00:58:14PAST IS TO SIMPLISTIC AND WE NEED TO BE MORE SOPHISTICATED,
00:58:17MIX AND MATCH VARIOUS ELEMENTS TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT'S
00:58:20UNIQUELY SUITED FOR A. THE NEXT QUESTION IS ALSO FROM
00:58:24FROM THE SAME PERSON, MIKE HARRIGAN PRIMARILY FOR HELEN,
00:58:28BUT OF COURSE ANYONE WHO'S WELCOME TO JOIN IN.
00:58:31IT IS FRONTIER LAB EMPLOYEES
00:58:33SEEM TO HAVE OUTSIZED INFLUENCE
00:58:35OVER ADDRESSING ETHICAL CONCERNS.
00:58:38AND I HOW CAN WE OR SHOULD WE
00:58:42STRENGTHEN OR CODIFY THIS? AND DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS
00:58:44ABOUT LAB EMPLOYEES PLAYING SORT OF A DE FACTO REGULATORY ROLE?
00:58:48I MEAN, CONCERNS ABOUT LAB EMPLOYEES PLAYING THIS ROLE?
00:58:52I THINK IT'S JUST THE OBVIOUS ONE OF IT'S IT'S A VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE IN A VERY
00:58:56SPECIFIC CULTURE THAT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, AND IF THAT IS THE
00:59:00ONLY SET OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF PROVIDING ANY KIND OF CHECK
00:59:03OR OVERSIGHT HERE, THEN THAT'S LEAVING A LARGE NUMBER OF
00:59:05STAKEHOLDERS OUT.
00:59:08IN TERMS OF WAYS TO STRENGTHEN THE EFFECT.
00:59:10I THINK THE BIGGEST ONE WOULD BE LOOKING AT WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS, WHICH I KNOW,
00:59:14MACKENZIE, YOU AND I HAVE DONE SOME WORK ON THIS SORT OF BASIC
00:59:18PROBLEM STATEMENT HERE IS THERE ARE A LOT OF EXISTING
00:59:22WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS IN LAW. THEY ARE GENERALLY DESIGNED FOR
00:59:25IF ILLEGAL CONDUCT HAS HAPPENED. AND RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THERE IS
00:59:28SO LITTLE REGULATION OF ADVANCING AI DEVELOPMENT IN
00:59:32FRONTIER AI DEVELOPMENT, IF YOU'RE I THINK A SITUATION THAT
00:59:35A LOT OF COMPANY EMPLOYEES FEEL
00:59:37THAT THEY ARE IN OR MIGHT IN THE FUTURE FEEL THAT THEY'RE IN, IS,
00:59:40HEY, MY COMPANY IS MAKING VERY, VERY RISKY BETS IS MAKING
00:59:43DECISIONS THAT ARE NOT BASED ON STRONG EVIDENCE ABOUT THIS BEING
00:59:47A, YOU KNOW, A SAFE DECISION OR OR THEY'RE KIND OF PLOWING AHEAD
00:59:51RECKLESSLY, BUT THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL.
00:59:53AND SO I AS THE COMPANY EMPLOYEE, DON'T REALLY HAVE
00:59:56RECOURSE TO GO I DON'T KNOW WHO I WOULD TELL. I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE PROTECTION FOR BREAKING A
01:00:00NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT JUST
01:00:04BECAUSE THE YOU KNOW, I AND MY TECHNICAL JUDGMENT AS A COMPANY
01:00:07EMPLOYEE, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE COMPANY IS DOING. BUT THERE'S NO SORT OF
01:00:11REGULATION OUT THERE THAT IS BEING BROKEN. SO I THINK THERE'S BEEN VARIOUS
01:00:14PROPOSALS. ONE STRONG ONE COMES FROM SENATOR CHUCK GRASSLEY ON HOW
01:00:18YOU COULD CREATE SOME WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS FOR
01:00:23EMPLOYEES. THAT WOULD BE SORT OF THE FIRST FIRST ONE TO COME TO MIND. I'M CURIOUS, MACKENZIE, OR, YOU
01:00:26KNOW, ALSO IF THERE'S OTHERS YOU HAVE HOW LONG YOU'RE SPEAKING MY LANGUAGE.
01:00:30I THINK THE GRASSLEY BILL IS A GOOD EXAMPLE THAT INCLUDES
01:00:35NON-MOBILE NATIONS AS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN WHISTLEBLOWER ON. AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
01:00:39RIGHT. MOST WHISTLEBLOWER REGIMES JUST COVER VIOLATIONS OF LAW. IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME
01:00:43FOR THE LAW TO CATCH UP AROUND AI. SO A SIMPLER FIX IN THE SHORT
01:00:46TERM WOULD BE TO BROADEN THE EXTENT OF THE WHISTLEBLOWER
01:00:50PROTECTIONS UNTIL THE LAW CATCHES UP.
01:00:52THE NEXT QUESTION IS AIMED AT
01:00:57YOU, MACKENZIE. IT'S FROM SAVANNAH TAYLOR AND
01:00:59IT'S IN REFERENCE TO YOUR MENTION OF LIABILITY.
01:01:02SAFE HARBORS DO YOU HAVE ANY
01:01:06SENSE OF WHERE WHERE THE RIGHT PLACE TO DRAW THE LINE IS?
01:01:09YOU MENTIONED IT'S TRICKY, BUT HAS IT WORKED IN OTHER INDUSTRIES?
01:01:13ARE THERE ANY EXAMPLES YOU COULD GIVE ABOUT HOW IT COULD APPLY IN THE INDUSTRY?
01:01:17YEAH. ONE FACTOR THAT ISN'T PRESENT
01:01:20HERE THAT CAN MAKE A LIABILITY SAFE HARBOR MORE COMPELLING IS
01:01:23IF YOU HAVE REALLY CLEAR BEST PRACTICES TO IMPLEMENT. RIGHT?
01:01:27IF YOU HAVE VERY OBVIOUS THINGS, IF YOU DO X, Y, AND Z, YOU
01:01:31MITIGATE YOUR RISK CONSIDERABLY. YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AND
01:01:35IT CAN BE WORTHWHILE TO TRADE LIABLE FOR THAT. RIGHT.
01:01:38ACKNOWLEDGING THAT. RIGHT. SOME AMOUNT OF LITIGATION IS
01:01:41EITHER FRIVOLOUS OR JUST VERY COSTLY. RIGHT? LIKE GENUINE DISPUTES OVER THINGS.
01:01:45BUT IT'S GOING TO COST A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY. IF YOU HAVE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW
01:01:48ARE GOOD, MAYBE YOU CAN MAKE THAT TRADE. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S LIKELY
01:01:51TO HAPPEN HERE. AND I CONTEXT. AND SO, IN FACT, LIABILITY IS A
01:01:55REALLY GOOD FALLBACK. RIGHT? IT'S A REALLY CONTEXT DEPENDENT
01:01:58INQUIRY THAT SAYS, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU KNEW WAS
01:02:02WHAT YOU DID, REASONABLE. AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE CLEAR RULES OF THE ROAD, THAT MIGHT
01:02:06ACTUALLY BE THE CLOSEST THING TO A REASONABLE STANDARD. RIGHT?
01:02:09IF YOU THINK THAT ALSO THE MITIGATIONS ARE VERY TECHNICAL
01:02:12IN NATURE AND THAT IN FACT THERE IS A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN INDUSTRY ON WHAT IS BEST TO DO,
01:02:16THEN RELYING ON A STANDARD THAT ASKS, GIVEN WHAT THEY KNEW AND
01:02:19THEIR LEVEL OF EXPERTISE AND WHAT THE TECHNICAL STATE OF THE ART IS, RIGHT.
01:02:23ALL OF THOSE FACTORS THAT FACTOR INTO LIABILITY IN SOME WAYS
01:02:26DEFERS TO THEIR EXPERTISE AND THEN HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE TO
01:02:29THAT EXPERTISE. PEOPLE HAVE ALSO TALKED ABOUT
01:02:33EXPANDING LIABILITY. THAT'S WHERE I THINK WHEN I SAID
01:02:35IT'S COMPLICATED. THAT'S THE MORE COMPLICATED PART IN MY MIND WHERE YOU HAVE TO
01:02:39THINK ABOUT A LOT OF COMPLICATED INCENTIVES. TORT REFORM IN A POSITIVE SENSE
01:02:43IS IS RATHER RARE HISTORICALLY.
01:02:45I THINK WHAT I'M MORE CLEAR ON
01:02:47IS THAT BROAD SAFE HARBORS ARE
01:02:51ARE MORE OBVIOUSLY NEGATIVE, IN
01:02:53PART BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THEY'RE SETTING GOOD INCENTIVES THAT SAY
01:02:57THIS IS A CATCH ALL IF THE LAW ISN'T THERE.
01:03:00AND IF YOU REMOVE THAT, EVEN IF THE COMPANIES ARE NOT RESISTING
01:03:04SUPER RATIONALLY OR VERY DIRECTLY, THEY HAVE TO SAY,
01:03:07WELL, YESTERDAY MY RISK LEVEL OR
01:03:10HOW MUCH MONETARY DAMAGES MIGHT COME OUT OF OUR COMPANY ARE HERE
01:03:14TODAY. THEY'RE DOWN HERE LIKE THERE'S SOME DELTA, RIGHT?
01:03:16LIKE I CAN NOW MY RISK TOLERANCE SHOULD GO UP AND SOME SOME
01:03:20RELEVANT RESPECT. AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT WOULD BE
01:03:23A REALLY SALIENT SIGNAL IF YOU ACTUALLY PASSED IT.
01:03:26SO MUCH CLEARER ON BE CAUTIOUS AROUND LIABILITY.
01:03:29SAFE HARBORS LIKELY ONLY TRADE THEM WHERE YOU HAVE SOME OBVIOUS
01:03:31BEST PRACTICE TO IMPLEMENT AND
01:03:35IF NOT, LEAVE IT BE OKAY.
01:03:39WE HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE AND THEN WE'LL
01:03:41WE'LL MOVE TO WRAP UP.
01:03:43AND THIS IS FROM WILL TORBEN
01:03:46HIME OF NEXT PILLAR CAPITAL. IT'S FROM MATT PRIMARILY.
01:03:49SO WE'VE SEEN ADVANCES IN CYBER CAPABILITIES.
01:03:52WE'VE ALSO SEEN ADVANCES IN JUST
01:03:54SORT OF AI COACHING AERATION.
01:03:57SO THE QUESTION IS ABOUT THE
01:04:01INTERACTION BETWEEN THESE TWO. DOES A.I. GENERATED CODE TEND TO
01:04:04BE MORE ROBUST TO CYBER ATTACKS?
01:04:06AND IS IT A PROMISING SOLUTION
01:04:09HAND-IN-HAND WITH OPEN MODELS TO STRENGTHEN DEFENSES?
01:04:12SO I THINK THE ANSWER IS IT DEPENDS, RIGHT?
01:04:15I THINK THAT THERE ARE TOOLS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN RELEASED
01:04:17AND WILL BE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, FURTHER DEVELOPED IN TERMS OF
01:04:21THINGS LIKE AS SOMEONE AS A, YOU KNOW, A SOFTWARE ENGINEER IS
01:04:25WRITING THE CODE AND ACTUALLY
01:04:27HAVING THE AI DEALT IN AND AND
01:04:29DETECT CYBER VULNERABILITIES AND BUGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
01:04:33AND SO I THINK THAT THERE'S ABSOLUTELY THE POTENTIAL FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
01:04:37AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO INCENTIVIZE AND ENCOURAGE. BUT IT VERY MUCH, AS I SAID,
01:04:41DEPENDS, RIGHT? IT'S IT'S SORT OF AN INSTITUTIONAL DESIGN, AN
01:04:44INCENTIVE QUESTION RATHER THAN SOMETHING THAT I WOULD
01:04:47CHARACTERIZE AS BEING INEVITABLE.
01:04:52SO I THINK AT THIS POINT, I'D
01:04:54LOVE TO YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS, JUST LOVE
01:04:58TO GET A SENSE OF IF YOU HAVE ANY CONCLUDING REMARKS.
01:05:02I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN, MAYBE IF YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR MIND ABOUT POLICY INTERVENTIONS
01:05:05OR IF YOU HAVE THOUGHT OF NEW THINGS THAT WE COULD BE DOING AS
01:05:09A RESULT OF THIS CONVERSATION,
01:05:11BUT FEEL FREE TO TO TO CONCLUDE
01:05:14IT ANY WAY YOU WANT.
01:05:17MATT, MAYBE I CAN START WITH YOU.
01:05:19YEAH, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE AREAS THAT WE HAVEN'T
01:05:23HAD AS MUCH DISCUSSION OF, BUT I THINK THAT WE NEED TO GIVE A LOT
01:05:26MORE THOUGHT TO IS THE WAY IN
01:05:29WHICH AGENTS, YOU KNOW, UNDER
01:05:30THEIR CURRENT DESIGN ARE FRAMED
01:05:34IN TERMS OF AND INCENTIVES WISE
01:05:37TO ONLY ACHIEVE THEIR GOAL AND IS THAT SORT OF AN INEVITABLE
01:05:41RESULT OF THE WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO IMPLEMENT AI? OR ARE THERE WAYS THAT WE CAN
01:05:46TEMPER IT? RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A CONVERSATION WORTH HAVING AS
01:05:49WELL AS AS CAME UP IN THE HUGGY
01:05:52FACE INCIDENT OF THIS QUESTION OF THE WAY IN WHICH AGENTS WORK
01:05:56TOGETHER. RIGHT? BECAUSE THAT COMBINES WITH THEIR
01:05:58THEIR SORT OF DESIRE IN SOME CASES TO EVADE CONTROLS AND TO
01:06:02ACCOMPLISH A GOAL IN A WAY THAT THEY'VE BEEN TOLD NOT TO.
01:06:05AND SO SO I THINK THAT THOSE ARE WE NEED TO HAVE A SORT OF
01:06:09FURTHER DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW
01:06:10WE'RE GOING TO DESIGN AND MODELS
01:06:13IN ORDER TO ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE CHALLENGES.
01:06:16I THINK FACT THAT ONE
01:06:19OVERARCHING THOUGHT IT WOULD BE
01:06:21THAT AI POLICY IS LARGELY A
01:06:23QUESTION OF MANAGING REALLY DEEP UNCERTAINTY.
01:06:25AND OF COURSE THAT APPLIES TO ANY INDUSTRY, BUT PARTICULARLY
01:06:30HERE, RIGHT WHERE WE'RE HAVING
01:06:32FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO HOW
01:06:34DOES THIS REVEAL THAT THE MODELS HAVE SOME AMOUNT OF DIRECTION TO
01:06:38DECEIVE US. RIGHT. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT
01:06:41PRESENTED IN OTHER DOMAINS. AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A
01:06:45COUPLE IMPLICATIONS FOR POLICY. ONE IS THAT ALL OF THIS INFORMATIONAL STUFF THAT WE'RE
01:06:48TALKING ABOUT, IT CAN SOUND KIND OF BORING, BUT I THINK ACTUALLY
01:06:51THIS IS THE CORE OF ACTUALLY FIGURING THINGS OUT IN THE FUTURE.
01:06:54OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO BE COMPLETELY CONFUSED.
01:06:57THAT'S BOTH GOVERNMENT CAPACITY THING. THAT'S A GATHERING AND SHARING
01:07:00THE INFORMATION THING. IT'S MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC CAN ANALYZE THAT
01:07:05INFORMATION. ALL OF THIS IS KIND OF PREPARING US TO TRY TO MAKE MORE SENSIBLE
01:07:08POLICY IN THE FUTURE.
01:07:10AND THEN SECONDLY, I GUESS LIKE A COROLLARY OF THAT WAS
01:07:14SOMETHING HELEN SAID EARLIER ABOUT JUST THE IMPORTANCE OF
01:07:16INTERNAL USE, VISIBILITY OR NO
01:07:19LONGER TREATING DEPLOYMENT AS
01:07:21SOME, YOU KNOW, HALLOWED MOMENT AT WHICH EVERYTHING CHANGES.
01:07:25AND THAT'S WHAT YOUR YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE DEADLINE YOU'RE WORKING WITH. I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE MUCH
01:07:28MORE A MATTER OF AS THE
01:07:31TECHNOLOGY BECOMES MORE CAPABLE, THERE MAY DEVELOP A LARGER AND
01:07:35LARGER GAP BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE KNOW INSIDE OF THE COMPANIES AND
01:07:39WHAT POLICYMAKERS KNOW. THIS IS ALREADY EXISTS, BUT I'M
01:07:42TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING MUCH MORE SEVERE THAN THAT. AND IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A
01:07:46POSITION WHERE WE'RE NOT HAVING RAPID AD HOC DECISIONS MADE DUE
01:07:50TO SURPRISE AND CONCERNING THINGS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE YOU HAVE
01:07:53TO START. AND THERE ARE A LOT OF TRADEOFFS INVOLVED IN THAT.
01:07:56AND I DON'T MEAN TO TO MAKE THEM SOUND SMALL. THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO BE
01:08:00THINKING ABOUT THIS AND TRYING TO BUILD A SYSTEM WHERE YOU GET SOME AMOUNT OF VISIBILITY AND
01:08:04SORT OF MITIGATE ALL OF THE
01:08:06TRADE OFFS OR ABUSE CONCERNS THAT MIGHT COME WITH THAT.
01:08:09YEAH, WE DIDN'T COORDINATE THIS, BUT BOTH OF THOSE SET UP PERFECTLY. WHAT I WANTED TO SAY.
01:08:13SO IN TERMS OF HOW ARE WE DESIGNING THESE INCREASINGLY ADVANCED AI SYSTEMS, WHAT IS
01:08:16INEVITABLE? WHAT CAN WE CHOOSE? AND THEN THROUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF INFORMATION FOR MAKING POLICY
01:08:20HERE, A HUGE THING THAT'S ON MY MIND RIGHT NOW IS JUST WE NEED
01:08:23TO KNOW WAY MORE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THESE DIFFERENT INCIDENTS OPENING.
01:08:27AI HAS SAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO RELEASE MORE HUGGING FACE HAS BEEN GREAT IN TERMS OF RELEASING LOTS OF INFORMATION.
01:08:31UK SECURITY INSTITUTE RELEASED VERY DETAILED REPORTING, BUT
01:08:35OPENING I ANTHROPIC REALLY NEED
01:08:38TO SHARE A LOT MORE BOTH ABOUT WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY HAPPENED
01:08:41HERE AND THEN GOING FORWARD. IDEALLY DUE TO, YOU KNOW, LEGAL
01:08:46REQUIREMENTS TO RELEASE MORE INFORMATION. BUT IF NOT, THEN AT A MINIMUM ON
01:08:48A VOLUNTARY BASIS BECAUSE THEY
01:08:50ARE DOING SOME VERY CONSEQUENTIAL THINGS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS RIGHT NOW.
01:08:54WE NEED TO WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE MORE. WELL, THAT BRINGS US TO THE
01:08:58CONCLUSION OF OUR PROGRAM. SINCE A BRIEF CONCLUDING
01:09:00REMARKS, I WANT TO THANK
01:09:02REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAN, IAN,
01:09:05HELEN MACKENZIE AND MATT FOR THEIR KEEN INSIGHTS TODAY.
01:09:09I THINK WHAT I TAKE AWAY FROM IS
01:09:11THAT THESE INCIDENTS CLEARLY REQUIRE SORT OF AN URGENT
01:09:15RESPONSE AND THAT THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO. CHIEF AMONG THEM THAT WE HEARD A
01:09:19LOT ABOUT, ENHANCED INCIDENT REPORTING, CLOSING THE
01:09:21INFORMATION GAP BETWEEN WHAT THE LABS KNOW AND WHAT GOVERNMENTS KNOW.
01:09:25THINKING ABOUT EXPANDING TECHNICAL EXPERTISE IN GOVERNMENT AND THEN THINKING
01:09:29ABOUT THE INCENTIVES AND INFRASTRUCTURE TO MAKE ALL OF
01:09:32THIS REPORTING GO WELL.
01:09:36AND SO, LIKE I SAID IN THE
01:09:38INTRO, BOTH MCKENZIE AND I HAVE
01:09:41WRITTEN REPORTS ABOUT THIS.
01:09:45VISAS AND LAWFARE. THIS IS ON OUR WEBSITE. SO I ENCOURAGE YOU TO READ
01:09:49THOSE. AND JUST SOME REALLY QUICK THANKS TO THE TEAM THAT HELPED
01:09:52PUT THIS EVENT TOGETHER. SO ON MY TEAM, THAT'S CLAIRE GOLDMAN AND NICOLE PEREIRA.
01:09:57THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE ALSO HAD SUPPORT FROM ANTONIA
01:10:00RIVERA, FLYNN AND TORY BLAKENEY
01:10:02IN EVENTS, SOPHIA CHAVEZ AND EVA
01:10:05ROSE IN EXTERNAL RELATIONS ARE REALLY SUBSTANTIAL.
01:10:10STREAMING AND BROADCASTING TEAM FOR OUR NEEDS.
01:10:12AND CLAIRE KAMI AND ROB LOCK ON THE WEB TEAM.
01:10:16AND THANKS AGAIN FOR COMING OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF VACATION SEASON TO LISTEN TO US.
01:10:19AT LEAST SOME OF US WILL STICK AROUND FOR A FEW MINUTES.
01:10:22IF YOU WANT TO CATCH UP WITH US.
01:10:25THANK YOU.
01:10:43FOR.
01:10:49LIVE THIS MORNING AT NINE EASTERN ON C SPAN THREE. THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
01:10:53HEARS FROM FBI DIRECTOR KASH PATEL DURING A HEARING ON
01:10:56OVERSIGHT OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION.
01:11:00WATCH IT LIVE THIS MORNING AT NINE EASTERN ON C SPAN THREE. C-SPAN NOW OUR FREE MOBILE VIDEO
01:11:04APP OR ONLINE AT C-SPAN DOT ORG.
01:11:13DEMOCRACY IS ALWAYS AN UNFINISHED CREATION.
01:11:15DEMOCRACY IS WORTH DYING FOR.
01:11:18DEMOCRACY BELONGS TO US ALL.
01:11:20WE ARE HERE IN THE SANCTUARY OF DEMOCRACY.
01:11:23GREAT RESPONSIBILITIES FALL ONCE
01:11:25AGAIN TO THE GREAT DEMOCRACY. THIS AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS
01:11:29BIGGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON.
01:11:30FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY MUST BE
01:11:33CONSTANTLY GUARDED AND PROTECTED.
01:11:36WE ARE STILL AT OUR CORE, A DEMOCRACY.
01:11:38THIS IS ALSO A MASSIVE VICTORY
01:11:40FOR DEMOCRACY AND FOR FREEDOM.
01:11:50REPUBLICAN SENATOR DAN SULLIVAN AND HIS DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGER IN
01:11:54ALASKA'S 2026 U.S. SENATE RACE, MARY PELL TOLA FACED OFF IN A DEBATE