Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00WILL TALK ABOUT THE TRADE WAR
00:00:02BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CANADA WITH
00:00:06CARLO DADE, FROM THE UNIVERSITY
00:00:08OF CALGARY, AND CONGRESSIONAL
00:00:11AND TRADE ED FOROLIVIA BRIDGES
00:00:13ON THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
00:00:16TEMPORARILY LIFTING BEEF TARIFFS
00:00:18IN AN EFFORT TO LOWER TARIFFS,
00:00:22LIVE, 7:00 EASTERN, SATURDAY
00:00:24MORNING ON C-SPAN, C-SPAN NOW,
00:00:28OUR FREE MOBILE APP OR ONLINE,
00:00:32C-SPAN.ORG.
00:00:32>> THE ROAD TO THE CAPITAL RUNS
00:00:36THROUGH THE BATTLEGROUND STATES, AND C-SPAN IS THERE.
00:00:39OUR CAMERAS REASON OF THE GROUND FOLLOWING THE CAMPAIGNS WHERE
00:00:43THE TOUGHEST RACES WILL DECIDE THE BALANCE IN POWER IN CONGRESS.
00:00:46WE ARE THE ONLY TELEVISION NETWORK PROVIDING THIS
00:00:50UNFILTERED ACCESS TO THE VOTERS
00:00:52AND THE ISSUES SHAPING 2026.
00:00:55NO COMMENTATORS TELLING YOU WHAT TO THINK.
00:00:58THE ROAD TO THE CAPITAL, ONLY ON C-SPAN.
00:01:01>> WE WANT TO WELCOME TO
00:01:04TABLE THIS MORNING, MAUREEN
00:01:06KLOVERS AND APRIL HARDING. LADIES, I WANT TO BEGIN WITH
00:01:10WHAT IS WE THE DOERS?
00:01:14>> GREAT, WELL, WE ARE NOW A
00:01:19PHYSICALLIRY RESPONSIBLE PROJECT. WE ARE IN THE FUND-RAISING
00:01:23PROCESS.
00:01:23BUT IT STARTED OVER A CUP OF
00:01:28COFFEE WE DIDN'T KNOW EACH OTHER, WE PARTICIPATED IN THE DEPARTURE DIALOGUE PROJECT A
00:01:30CHANCE TO GIVE CONGRESS A CHANCE
00:01:37TO GIVE CONGRESS UNFILTERED ACCESS HOW TO MAKE THE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFECTIVE.
00:01:41WE MET OVER A CUP OF COFFEE BY THE END WE DECIDED WE WOULD START OUR OWN ORGANIZATION AND IT BUILT FROM THERE.
00:01:45THAT WAS NOVEMBER AND WE HAD OUR
00:01:47FIRST WORKSHOP IN DECEMBER AND PUBLISHED OUR FIRST REPORT IN JANUARY TO MARK ONE YEAR OF DOGE
00:01:51AND WE PUBLISHED A REPORT ON
00:01:52FAST, FAIR FEDERAL FIRING.
00:01:57HOST: APRIL, WHY DID YOU THINK THIS WAS NECESSARY. GUEST: IN THE GOVERNMENT REFORM
00:02:02THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER,
00:02:06THE VOICE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DELIVERING THE GOVERNMENT TO THE
00:02:09AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE DOERS, AS
00:02:10WE WERE WHEN WE WERE CIVIL
00:02:15SERVICE, WASN'T NECESSARILY REPRESENTED. SO WE WANT TO BRING THAT GROUND TRUTH, THAT OPERATIONAL
00:02:19EXPERTISE HOW THINGS WORK TODAY, WHY THEY BREAK DOWN AND HOW WE KNOW IT CAN BE FIXED TO THE BROADER CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT
00:02:21TO DO NEXT. HOST: WHAT DID YOU DO FOR THE
00:02:24FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? GUEST: I WAS DIRECTOR OF USER
00:02:27EXPERIENCES FOR THE DIGITAL TEAM AT THE IRS.
00:02:29MY RESPONSIBILITY WAS MAKE SURE
00:02:32EVERYTHING ON IRS.GOV WORKS
00:02:34BETTER FOR PEOPLE AND
00:02:37A BIG PART OF THAT JOB IS UNDERSTANDING WHY WE WERE DELIVERING THE DIGITAL
00:02:41EXPERIENCES WE WERE DELIVERING
00:02:44WHICH BECAME A BROADER PROBLEM
00:02:47OF THE BUREAUCRATIC MACHINE AND
00:02:50PROCESSES AND TOOLS AND THE CONSTRAINTS AND THAT IS MY FOCUS
00:02:54TO THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS AND HOW WE COULD USE THOSE SYSTEMS
00:02:57TO DELIVER BETTER EXPERIENCES.
00:03:02HOST: HOW LONG DID YOU WORK THERE. >> ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS BEFORE THAT I WAS BUILDING THINGS ON THE INTERNET IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
00:03:06A BIG PART OF WHAT I WAS BRINGING TO THE IRS IS UNDERSTANDING HOW TO BUILD PRODUCTS WELL USED AND LOVED BY
00:03:09PEOPLE AND THE CONTRAST BETWEEN THE WAY I DID THAT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND THE WAY I WAS
00:03:13ABLE TO DO THAT IN GOVERNMENT WAS VERY SIGNIFICANT WHICH IS
00:03:16WHAT SENT ME DOWN THE PATH OF THINKING ABOUT WHY THINGS ARE
00:03:18DIFFERENT AND HOW WE CAN BRING THOSE BEST PRACTICES IN WITHOUT
00:03:22BREAKING THE IMPORTANT THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT DOES NEED TO CONTROL AND BE CAREFUL ABOUT.
00:03:26HOST: HOW DID YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.
00:03:28GUEST: I WAS PUSHED OUT BY THE
00:03:30DOGE PROCESS, ESSENTIALLY.
00:03:35SO I TECHNICALLY TOOK THE
00:03:39DEFERRED RESIGNATION, ROUND TWO, BUT IT WAS IN A CHOICE IN THE
00:03:42SENSE THAT I DIDN'T BELIEVE I WOULD BE BE ABLE TO STAY IF I DIDN'T.
00:03:46>> WHAT ABOUT YOU, MAUREEN?
00:03:47WHAT IS YOUR STORY?
00:03:51GUEST: I HAVE 14 YEARS INSIDE GOVERNMENT, WORKED AT FOUR DIFFERENT AGENCIES.
00:03:55IT'S EXCITING TO SEE HOW DIFFERENT THINGS ARE AGENCY TO AGENCY. I STARTED IN HAD INTELLIGENCE
00:03:58COMMUNITY, AND THEN WORKED AT COMMERCE AND TREASURY AND LASTLY
00:04:01DEPUTY CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER
00:04:05AND CHIEF ENTERPRISE OFFICER FOR USDA WORLD DEVELOPMENT WHICH
00:04:09HAS BEEN IN THE NEWS LATELY. YEAH.
00:04:12HOST: HOW DID YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.
00:04:15GUEST: IT WAS A TUESDAY AT 11:00 A.M. AND I GOT AN EMAIL THAT SAID YOU HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM YOUR POSITION.
00:04:19AND IT WAS A MASS EMAIL TO 5,000
00:04:25USDA EMPLOYEES. THE ONLY REASON WE WERE IN
00:04:29PROBATIONARY YEAR.
00:04:33AS A SENIOR EXECUTIVE.
00:04:37THEN I WAS REHIRED REINSTATED THREE WEEKS LATER BY A JUDICIAL ORDER AND I THINK A COUPLE OF WEEKS AFTER THAT, TOLD I WOULD BE MOVED TO AN UNDISCLOSED
00:04:40LOCATION, AND WE HAD TO DECIDE WHETHER TO TAKE THE DEFERRED RESIGNATION PROGRAM BEFORE
00:04:42MOVING.
00:04:45AT THE TIME MY MOTHER-IN-LAW HAD
00:04:49STAGE 4 STOMACH CANCER AND WE COULDN'T MOVE SO I TOOK THE PACKAGE.
00:04:53HOST: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
00:04:55REFORMING THE FIRING PROCESS,
00:04:59AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.
00:05:02OUR TWO GUESTS HERE STARTED A NEW GROUP AFTER THEY LOST THEIR
00:05:05FEDERAL JOBS, WE THE DOERS, THE TWO CO-FOUNDERS HERE.
00:05:09WE WANT TO YOU JOIN NEWS THE CONVERSATION.
00:05:11IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN DIAL IN
00:05:15202-748-8001, DEMOCRATS 202-748-8000, AND INDEPENDENTS
00:05:20202-748-8002. IF YOU ARE A CURRENT OR FORMER
00:05:24FEDERAL WORKER, WE WANT TO HEAR
00:05:25YOUR STORY AS WELL.
00:05:29AT 202-748-8003.
00:05:32LADIES YOU WERE ONE OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVIL SERVANTS AT
00:05:35THE GOVERNMENT THAT WERE LET GO PART OF DOGE.
00:05:39OVERALL, WHAT WAS THE PROCESS LIKE FOR FIRING THESE FEDERAL
00:05:42WORKERS?
00:05:47>> THE PROCESS WHEN THE DOGE CHANGES HAPPENED WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FORMAL
00:05:51OFFICIAL PROCESS. MOSTLY BECAUSE THOSE WERE LARGE SCALE LAYOFFS AND FIRINGS.
00:05:55THE PROCESS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN OUR REPORT IS WHAT IS
00:05:59TYPICAL IN THE CURRENT STATUTE AND REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT,
00:06:01STILL BUT ALSO BEFORE DOGE FOR FIRING AN INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYEE
00:06:05FOR CAUSE. AND SO, THE PROCESS THAT WE WENT
00:06:10THROUGH WAS MORE ABOUT
00:06:12PROBATIONARY EMPLOYEES,
00:06:16REDUCTIONS IN FORCE AND ADMIN LEAVE WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
00:06:19IN OUR REPORT. OUR FOCUS IS ON WHEN AN
00:06:22INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYEE NEEDS TO BE REMOVED BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
00:06:26PERFORMING OR THEIR CONDUCT IS INAPPROPRIATE AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE.
00:06:29IT RELATES IN A SENSE WHEN IT IS
00:06:33DIFFICULT AND TIME CONSUMING AND
00:06:41COSTLY AS IT CURRENTLY IS TO DO THAT THROUGH THE EXISTING PROCESS, WORK AROUNDS ARE SOUGHT OUT AND WHAT SEEMED TO HAPPEN IN 2025, WAS A LARGE SCALE WORK
00:06:45AROUNDS BECAUSE UNTANGLING THE COMPLEXITY OF THE RIGHT WAY TO
00:06:48THINK ABOUT WHO BELONGS IN HAD WHAT JOB WAS TOO MUCH TO DO IN
00:06:50THE TIME FRAME THEY THOUGHT.
00:06:53>> EXACTLY.
00:06:57ELON MUSK AND THE DOGE TEAM SAID THE MASS FIRING OF FEDERAL EMPLOYEES WERE AN EFFICIENT WAY TO CUT COSTS.
00:07:01WHAT'S YOUR TAKE?
00:07:08GUEST: IT HASN'T CUT COSTS. OUR DEFICIT AND DEBT HAVE BALLOONED.
00:07:10THERE'S GOOD REPORTING ABOUT HOW MANY OF THE POSITIONS NOW BEING
00:07:14ADVERTISED FOR ARE TO BACK FILL THE PEOPLE WHO LEFT. I MEAN, THE PROBLEM WITH THE WAY
00:07:18THAT DOGE DID IT, IT WASN'T EFFICIENT. FIRST OF ALL, THE WORKFORCE IS A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE FEDERAL
00:07:21BUDGET.
00:07:26AND A LOT OF THE TIMES WHEN YOU
00:07:30CUT THE WORK FORCE, YOU REPLACE
00:07:32THEM WITH HIGHER-PRICED CONTRACTORS.
00:07:34THAT IS NOT EFFICIENT. DOGE FIRED PEOPLE SAFEGUARDING
00:07:39OUR NUCLEAR STOCK PILE AND THEN
00:07:43REALIZED THEY NEEDED TO REHIRE THEM. THERE'S TALKS ABOUT HOW NEGATIVE
00:07:46THE USAID CUTS WERE FOR FARMERS
00:07:48ACCESSING SERVERS.
00:07:52THE KEY IS, THE FOUNDERS PUT THE FIRST BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT AS THE
00:07:55POWER OF THE PURSE.
00:07:58AND THEY REALLY THINK THAT CONGRESS NEEDS TO REASSERT
00:08:02ITSELF, DIRECT ITSELF IN A
00:08:10BIPARTISAN MANNER. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THESE CHANGES ARE GOING TO STICK. OTHERWISE WE'LL KEEP WHIPLASHING
00:08:14BETWEEN ONE ADMINISTRATION THAT MAYBE HAS A DOGE LIKE APPROACH AND ANOTHER WHERE IT'S VERY, VERY HARD TO REMOVE SOMEONE WHO TRULY SHOULD BE REMOVED.
00:08:18WE WANT TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON HOW DO YOU DESIGN A CIVIL SERVICE
00:08:21THAT BALANCES DUE PROCESS WITH SPEED. BEFORE THERE WAS TOO LITTLE
00:08:25SPEED AND NOW THERE'S NO DUE PROCESS.
00:08:27HOW DO YOU BRING THEM TOGETHER?
00:08:30HOST: IN YOUR NEW REPORT, THE
00:08:33TITLE IS "FAST BUT FAIR FEDERAL FIRING, BALANCING SPEED AND DUE
00:08:35PROCESS WHEN REMOVING EMPLOYEES
00:08:41FOR CAUSE." SO SOUNDS LIKE YOU AGREE THAT THE PROCESS BEFORE DOGE WAS WAY TOO SLOW. THE GOVERNMENT HAD A HARD TIME
00:08:45GETTING RID OF EMPLOYEES WHO SHOULD NOT BE IN THOSE
00:08:48POSITIONS.
00:08:50WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEFORE?
00:08:55>> WELL, WE HAVE A GIANT SPAGHETTI DIAGRAM, WE'LL SHOW IT
00:08:57IN A MINUTE AND IT'S ON YOUTUBE. YOU CAN HEAR MY VOICE WALKING
00:09:01THROUGH IT FOR 37 MINUTES IF YOU
00:09:03WANT TO UNDERSTAND IT IN DETAIL.
00:09:09BUT WHAT WE DID IS WE BROUGHT TOGETHER TEN MANAGERS FROM TEN FEDERAL AGENCIES WITH A COMBINED
00:09:13181 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE WHO HAD ACTUALLY TRIED TO REMOVE SOMEONE WITH SERIOUS CONDUCT OR
00:09:16PERFORMANCE ISSUES.
00:09:21BETWEEN THE TEN OF US, THERE
00:09:22WERE 22 SERIOUS CONDUCT AND
00:09:27PERFORMANCE ISSUES. AND THEN FOR 12 OF THOSE, THE MANAGERS WERE WILLING TO -- REALLY DETAILED RECONSTRUCTION
00:09:30WITH US AT THE TIME.
00:09:35FOR THE ONES ACTUALLY REMOVED, IT TOOK 21 MONTHS FOR THE TIME THEY IDENTIFIED THE PROBLEM TO THE TIME THE PERSON WAS REMOVED.
00:09:38JUST THE MANAGER'S TIME FOR A PERFORMANCE CASE WAS 542 HOURS
00:09:41OF THEIR TIME.
00:09:45SO ABOUT A QUARTER OF A WORK YEAR FOR A CONDUCT CASE IT WAS 292 HOURS.
00:09:48THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ALL THE
00:09:52TIME FOR HR AND LEGAL. AND IT DOESN'T INCLUDE ALL THE
00:09:54POST REMOVAL APPEALS FOR THE
00:09:58MERIT BOARD OFFICE OF SPECIAL COUNSEL AND THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYMENT COMMISSION.
00:10:03I'LL STOP THERE.
00:10:05THERE'S A LOT MORE BUT YOU CAN
00:10:08SEE IT ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL.
00:10:10>> OKAY, NEXT, SHELLY IS IN SPRINGFIELD, VIRGINIA. WELCOME TO THE CONVERSATION.
00:10:14GO AHEAD
00:10:19CALLER: SHELLY IN SPRINGFIELD,
00:10:23VIRGINIA CALLER: YEAH, CAN YOU HEAR ME?
00:10:27>> WE CAN. TALKING ABOUT THE FEDERAL WORK
00:10:30FORCE CALLER: I WAS ONE OF THE
00:10:32EMPLOYEES THAT WAS VICTIM TO THE
00:10:36DOGE CUTS LAST YEAR. I WORKED IN THE FEDERAL
00:10:40GOVERNMENT SINCE 1987 UNTIL MY
00:10:43LAST DAY, AUGUST 1, 2025.
00:10:46BUT MY LAST DAY WASN'T BECAUSE OF EFFICIENCIES OR PEOPLE WHO
00:10:50KNEED TO GO BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T DOING THEIR JOB.
00:10:54MY UNIT WAS HIGHLY RATED. WE WERE SUCCESSFUL AND
00:10:58FUNCTIONAL. THEY MADE RANDOM CUTS AND THEY
00:11:01DECIDED THEY DIDN'T NEED
00:11:05STATISTICS ANYMORE. AND I WORKED FOR THE FEDERAL AYENNSY THAT WAS GUTTED,
00:11:08ABSOLUTELY GUTTED BY 97%.
00:11:10AND THEY SLOWLY TRIED TO RETIRE SOME PEOPLE BACK.
00:11:13AND BECAUSE OF MY AGE, I'M JUST RETIRED NOW.
00:11:16I PROBABLY WON'T WORK AGAIN FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
00:11:19NOT AFTER THAT EXPERIENCE.
00:11:23BUT -- >> YOU CAN WANT WATCHING THIS PROGRAM IF YOU GO TO C-SPAN.ORG. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE YOU LIVE NOW
00:11:27TO THE U.S. MARINE CORPS
00:11:30BARRACKS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.,
00:11:32FOR THE FINAL PARADE OF THE SUMMER SEASON.
00:11:36>> THE UNITED STATES MARINE BAND.
00:11:39THE ROOTS BACK TO 1898 WHEN THEY
00:11:46ISSUED 32 DRUMMERS.
00:11:49TODAY, THERE ARE MORE THAN 140
00:11:53MEMBERS PROUDLY CARRYING OUT THE
00:11:55MISSION OF PROVIDING MUSIC FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNI