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00:01:52We will continue to talk about the problem with which we woke up this morning,
00:01:56we don't have water at the tap, but we do. They say Sarajevo
00:02:00is once again facing
00:02:02at the airport, there is no reductions, citizens are without basic necessities
00:02:05for days, at the same time Bosnia and Herzegovina is often described as a country rich
00:02:09in water resources, so the logical question arises, where
00:02:13is the problem? Is it in climate change, in dilapidated
00:02:17infrastructure, in water losses or in the way we manage it in
00:02:20the 21st century? The question
00:02:23consuming water that is in of water should not be a question of political promises, but of basic
00:02:26system functioning, and why haven't we solved it yet, here...
00:02:30is a question, but many more questions for my guests this morning, Professor Dalibor
00:02:34Balian, who is a member of the Academy of Sciences of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
00:02:38a corresponding member of the Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Professor Muris Pahić
00:02:41from the Faculty of Natural Sciences and Mathematics of the University of Sarajevo, good morning to you and
00:02:45welcome to a new day, good morning to you and to the viewers, good morning, how
00:02:49else can we call it, I dare say, other than a
00:02:53civilizational disgrace that we in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
00:02:56or rather in Sarajevo mostly, don't have water for
00:02:59days. That is, we have reductions without any fixed order or schedule as to when
00:03:03the water will disappear and when the water will come, Mr. Spahić, what would you call
00:03:07this that we are experiencing these past few days, it is obvious that
00:03:11Beijing, where they successfully responded to we are most likely one of the capitals in the world
00:03:15that has problems with
00:03:18water, I have a feeling that even
00:03:21those who desalinate seawater have
00:03:25a more regular water supply than
00:03:28Sarajevo. "How is that possible? It's
00:03:32possible, everything is possible, you said several things at the beginning
00:03:36that are actually all integrated into
00:03:39one whole, that whole gives the result, no
00:03:42water, uh, water
00:03:46cannot be thought of as a commodity, it is
00:03:49the most important resource, because it needs to be nurtured, lived
00:03:53with and used rationally, have we
00:03:57been doing that for years, you, Professor Balijan, warned seven
00:04:00months ago, right here you said that we would come to
00:04:04a situation where we have no water, 10 years ago you, you mentioned before
00:04:08this connection that we would come to a situation where we have no water,
00:04:11here we are, so it is a long-term process, we are
00:04:15basically living for years and years on that ecological
00:04:18debt, we consume more than nature can give, in our
00:04:22case, how much nature can filter clean water, we have
00:04:26those underground waters, the wells will go even deeper, they
00:04:29need to be... dug even deeper, deeper, deeper, but we are consuming
00:04:33that water that has been forming for thousands of years,
00:04:36aha, we cannot restore it, and why can't
00:04:39we restore it? Well, because we have devastated nature, mhm, so that is
00:04:43connected and one thing is connected to another and if I devastate
00:04:46nature, I have no water, but I want water, water means
00:04:49life to me, we are not the only ones, look last year
00:04:53Ankara had a big problem, there was a drought in Ankara,
00:04:57the city has two million inhabitants, they are without
00:05:00water, they have exhausted their lakes that were
00:05:04designated for water, so now they are building a large
00:05:06Trans-Anatolian aqueduct from the
00:05:10Euphrates to bring water for hundreds
00:05:13of kilometers to Ankara, we must also think in that way, before
00:05:17the war it was considered to build a White River
00:05:20hydro-accumulation, so it's not a hydro-accumulation for generating
00:05:23electricity, but for supplying the city with water, that was abandoned,
00:05:27after the war a project was made for the Black River, it seems
00:05:30that was abandoned, there was also a big problem because the water
00:05:34needs to be brought through the Republika Srpska entity to Sarajevo, because
00:05:38any other water intake through the Federation would be too expensive.
00:05:42expensive, so we didn't do any of that,
00:05:45there is water, Professor Spahić, you say that, there is water, where is that
00:05:49water? Of course there is water here, I must say
00:05:52something that is very important, we cannot look
00:05:56for new water sources, unless we have reserves
00:06:00until we use what we have, what is in front of us, mhm,
00:06:03we cannot in this way, you know, in the Sarajevo
00:06:06field reduce hydrological zones,
00:06:10i.e. water protection zones so that... then we have an alibi to say,
00:06:14let's now bring for example the Black River, some other rivers
00:06:18that are located in the hinterland of the Sarajevo
00:06:20field. The Sarajevo field is a huge area
00:06:24and that huge area is covered
00:06:28with gravel and sand detritus in which
00:06:32water is located, that water is called groundwater,
00:06:36mhm, it is up to the water-retaining layer, that water-retaining layer, the first
00:06:39water-retaining layer up to 25 m deep. But
00:06:43there is also a second layer which is at 120 m deep,
00:06:46water-retaining, within that layer there is
00:06:50mixed water with gravel and sands and
00:06:54it maintains the upper groundwater level which depends on
00:06:57external factors, among other things, of course it depends on
00:07:01the inflow of water, what does that mean so that citizens understand why
00:07:05we don't have water, now we will tell you, we cannot
00:07:09answer that directly, we need to have a little
00:07:13introduction for that, besides the Sarajevo
00:07:16field, which has a huge amount of water, we have two karstic
00:07:20hinterlands, that is the karstic Bjelašnica,
00:07:23Igman, however, regarding
00:07:26Bjelašnica and Igman, as my colleague just said,
00:07:29we do not pay enough attention to
00:07:32zaštitimo te te krške vode, već smo dozvolili,
00:07:36for example, urban construction on
00:07:39Bjelašnica and we have converted the fourth
00:07:42water protection zone into a hydrological zone, it cannot be done
00:07:46that way, it's not, you know, drawing a line
00:07:50with a pencil, then erasing it, the same thing is happening
00:07:53with the reduction of this mm hydrological, or rather
00:07:57water protection zone, the first water protection zone and the second, and
00:08:00proclaiming this first to second
00:08:03and so on in order to actually free up space for
00:08:07something else, that is actually construction,
00:08:10that is housing construction. These are the problems, among other things,
00:08:14the initial ones, so that is one axis of problems, the second axis
00:08:18of problems is the most important, that is that in
00:08:21previous planning not enough attention was paid
00:08:24to how to strategically
00:08:27introduce the concept
00:08:30of constant care for
00:08:33waters in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and primarily in Sarajevo for
00:08:37the reason that if we take care of those waters, then
00:08:41we will have less loss of water, mhm, we will have
00:08:44more water in the water pipes and on the other
00:08:48hand we will conduct
00:08:51new research in the Sarajevo field to connect
00:08:54several wells with each other so that we
00:08:57have a large amount of water that is
00:09:00now available, however, the piezometric
00:09:04inflow of these waters is very low, it is low because
00:09:07the Sarajevo field has not been sufficiently connected
00:09:10to get more water. And just one more
00:09:14fact, imagine that a loss of
00:09:1772.8% of the water that Sarajevo
00:09:20receives, if it had remained in the
00:09:23Sarajevo field, that would be a huge reserve of water
00:09:27that is actually being preserved, we would not have these
00:09:30restrictions, we would not have these reductions, we would not have these problems
00:09:34with the water supply network and so on, the citizen asks a logical question
00:09:37very uh, could it
00:09:40have been foreseen, professor, that this would happen? You warned, and
00:09:44you know how those who are actually in the relevant ministries and
00:09:48who manage the companies that are responsible for the regular
00:09:52supply or irregular supply of water, they act
00:09:55as if they were surprised by what happened, is this something that should have
00:09:59caught us by surprise, or is this actually a trend that repeats itself and will repeat
00:10:02itself? That's like saying in January, snow
00:10:06surprised us, that's right, so the roads were covered,
00:10:09which means we have to be prepared for it.
00:10:13So, we know climate change is coming,
00:10:16we've known for 20, 30, 50 years that
00:10:19this is being talked about, we haven't done anything, we haven't taken
00:10:23any action.
00:10:25to suppress it, we know that climate change affects forests, so
00:10:29look at the fires we had this year,
00:10:33we lost just through those fires, those are huge
00:10:36amounts,
00:10:39so we are not doing anything, and we are massively re-purposing forest
00:10:42land for construction, we are building against food, that
00:10:46is a story in itself, this is
00:10:49what's happening, I have a small estate in Posavina, I have a well
00:10:53for water 9 m. That well has been used for 100
00:10:57years, an old well, for three
00:11:00years I have no water in that well, I draw
00:11:03water from 21 m deep, at 21
00:11:06m deep I have water, on one side is the Sava River, on the other side
00:11:10the Bosna River, the level from which I draw water is lower than
00:11:13those rivers, meaning there is less and less water,
00:11:17mhm, meaning we can talk about this and that, there is
00:11:21less and less water, what colleague Spahić says that 70% of
00:11:25water is lost, what do you think, how many illegal water connections do we have,
00:11:29mhm, the biggest problem is with those connections, I think that
00:11:32surely 20 to 25% of that
00:11:35lost water are illegal water connections,
00:11:38then there, then we have constant problems, when
00:11:42you say we have water at the source, but it gets lost before reaching
00:11:45the citizens, it gets lost, it gets lost somewhere we can say
00:11:48150% due to faulty installations that
00:11:52leak, that are dilapidated in parts of the city, and installations that have been
00:11:55underground for 100 years, never done, a large
00:11:58project for the city's water supply was last done
00:12:01around the beginning of the 70s, when
00:12:04Bačevo was expanded, when those large pumps were built, large
00:12:08metal pipes were laid, I live down in Ilidža, and I remember when it was
00:12:12being dug, I was little and could enter that pipe, mhm,
00:12:15the pipes are somewhere around a meter in
00:12:19diameter, since then practically nothing
00:12:22has been done, only some maintenance, but everything
00:12:25has its lifespan, it can't last forever, investments must be made again,
00:12:29we must modernize the city's water supply and then
00:12:33we can say that even these modest amounts of water that we have will
00:12:36be enough for now, that it is already starting to affect
00:12:40the health of citizens who complain about various
00:12:44viruses, stomach problems, due to
00:12:48the pipes or remains in the pipes and sometimes reaches them after
00:12:52these reductions stop, how seriously should all this
00:12:55actually be taken, because there is silence about
00:12:58it, and if you ask doctors, they will tell you that more
00:13:02and more patients are coming precisely because of water issues,
00:13:06they asked me a long time ago about that, this, I answered
00:13:09that, so I will repeat it, constant
00:13:12water reductions uh create a problem
00:13:16of vacuum, mhm, that vacuum, you know when there's no water, then
00:13:19then a vacuum is created then it sucks
00:13:23up
00:13:25everything that is inside that pipe, however
00:13:29there are many pipes that are cracked, now
00:13:32there is reversible suction
00:13:35and that water that has leaked out before that together with
00:13:38this here we now say
00:13:42sludge, but some other elements that are very
00:13:46toxic, it can be fecal water, in this
00:13:49way there is actually a mixing of one and the other, I
00:13:53recently saw someone... published that his glass
00:13:57of water was full of mud, that is
00:13:59the problem that is happening, however, no one
00:14:03has declared themselves about it until now, you know, mhm,
00:14:06unfortunately, we don't even have a good service
00:14:09that deals with mm the epidemiological state
00:14:13of the water, for the simple reason that these waters are not only
00:14:16the waters in the Sarajevo field that are found, that are supplied,
00:14:20they are replenished by railway, you know what kind
00:14:23of railway this can be. during floods, but
00:14:27also those waters are supplied from
00:14:30Bosnia, and Bosnia at the source
00:14:33directly receives water from Bjelašnica,
00:14:37meaning there is a narrow hydrological connection,
00:14:40this through carbonates
00:14:44between Babin Dol, Veliko Polje on
00:14:47Igman, Babin Dol on Bjelašnica, Veliko
00:14:50Dol on Igman, the small
00:14:53what's its name, this. uh field that directly
00:14:57flows into Bosnia, meaning
00:15:00there is a close connection that has already
00:15:03been proven by coloring, now you can imagine that
00:15:06water, that is all the sewage from
00:15:10the Olympic Games and beyond has cracked, that it
00:15:13has actually collapsed in some
00:15:17places in several places, then the question arises, what waters
00:15:20come to the source of the Bosna, what are we drinking then? I remember when I
00:15:24took students... led them when I was an assistant in
00:15:27hydrology to the source of the Bosna, then we could
00:15:30drink this water, water
00:15:34from the spring, but now you have a sign there immediately. a board,
00:15:38water not for drinking, you know, and one more thing
00:15:40just now, when you were talking about this
00:15:43problem, we talk about a problem when it exists
00:15:47and we think no matter how it came about, this
00:15:50very quickly, as expected,
00:15:54as Professor Balijan said earlier,
00:15:58uh, we look at it as if it
00:16:01just happened and we will now with these
00:16:04broadcasts or other
00:16:07conversations solve this problem, this problem is not
00:16:11solved on the same day, at the same moment, this
00:16:15problem is not solved even in a year, nor in years, but it's
00:16:18not solved by rain, professor, because look, in recent days
00:16:22they say, we are waiting for rain, because the one that fell last
00:16:26Thursday, did not have enough capacity to solve all
00:16:29our problems, so it's like we don't have rain, what can rain actually do?
00:16:33We always look at the sky, when there are floods, we look...
00:16:37when it will stop, and when there are droughts then we look when it will start
00:16:41raining, we must not rely on it,
00:16:45but prevent these negative elements that can
00:16:48happen in the natural world.
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00:18:37The Ha9 team of the Vogošća Fire Department, handler Davorin Sekulić
00:18:41and search dog Đurđa represented Bosnia and Herzegovina at
00:18:45the World Cup of search dogs in
00:18:48a series of challenges designed according to real rescue
00:18:52operations. How does working with a dog that saves human lives look like,
00:18:56how much trust must exist between the dog handler and the dog, and what did
00:18:59one of the largest world competitions of rescue teams show?
00:19:03We talk about that next with Davorin Sekulić, and Đurđa
00:19:06has come to our... to visit us again, good morning and welcome, thank you for being with us this morning,
00:19:10good morning and thank you for inviting us, Đurđa has returned from Beijing,
00:19:13disciplined, much more disciplined than she was last
00:19:17time, it seems to me, I think she's just more tired, this
00:19:21time, but otherwise still mischievous as she
00:19:24was, well, I hope that she will remain
00:19:28as calm as she is now, she was good
00:19:31Đurđa was good anyway last time, how did it happen
00:19:35that you went to Beijing, well? Actually, the Vogošća
00:19:38Fire Department received an invitation to Beijing,
00:19:42we actually didn't even believe it when it arrived,
00:19:44I thought someone was joking with us, with colleagues
00:19:48from the Vogošća Fire Department, with other handlers, with
00:19:52the commander and everyone agreed, that
00:19:56is, they gave me and Đurđa this
00:19:59opportunity to go for the first time and that's
00:20:02how we actually went to Beijing
00:20:06after, let's say, many "especially because of the papers that had
00:20:09to be obtained, some
00:20:12tests that had to be done for entry into China, and
00:20:15which are not done in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so
00:20:19we managed to finish that, but in the end there was
00:20:22a problem with the airplanes, actually they wouldn't
00:20:26let Đurđa on the plane, not just Đurđa
00:20:29but many other dogs,
00:20:32in conversation with other
00:20:36handlers from other countries. They actually had similar
00:20:39problems, so we actually arrived at the world championship
00:20:42two and a half days late and had to
00:20:45join the whole process immediately.
00:20:49On the first day, we had three searches, which was
00:20:53very difficult after the journey, while most
00:20:56countries had, let's say, one search per
00:21:00day, yes, so right from the start you were not in
00:21:02the same position, so your starting position was not the same as
00:21:06other teams, and what results are you actually coming back with? Well, we are coming
00:21:10back with very good results, very good
00:21:13experiences first of all, m
00:21:17we didn't expect much... because we
00:21:20are, let's say, a young organization that started
00:21:24a little over two years ago to change something in Bosnia and
00:21:27Herzegovina, to actually work with search
00:21:30dogs at some, let's say, world
00:21:33level, we primarily went there to see what was happening
00:21:37and what it looked like, we didn't have, let's say, a
00:21:41result as a goal, but
00:21:44we actually wanted to show ourselves as well as possible
00:21:47so as not to embarrass ourselves or the country
00:21:50or the organization, and I think we
00:21:54did an excellent job considering the circumstances,
00:21:57that Đurđa was really
00:22:01good and up to the task, it was clear that she was very
00:22:04tired and that between these, let's say,
00:22:08short breaks, she was constantly sleeping and asking to
00:22:11rest, but she actually worked
00:22:14excellently, this was first of all a very significant
00:22:17experience for you, so there you met
00:22:21some of the best rescue teams in the world
00:22:24and what was most important for you in that exchange
00:22:28of experiences? Well, when we actually went there,
00:22:31we saw that these were handlers who were, let's say, as far as
00:22:34licenses are concerned, everything at the highest
00:22:38possible level, I mean mm these were, I don't know,
00:22:41some very large countries that invest
00:22:45continuously in rescue teams, dogs,
00:22:48I mean for decades. And actually we still can't
00:22:52compare ourselves to them and actually
00:22:56we only have one great desire to be, let's say,
00:22:59in that rank, actually it was
00:23:03a very great experience for us because
00:23:06the conditions were very realistic, so we
00:23:09first had a search, it was
00:23:12a simulation of a collapsed building, we didn't know how many people
00:23:16there were, how many people were being
00:23:20searched for and... and the judges told us
00:23:23immediately, this is a world level and know that it will be
00:23:27absolutely very difficult, we deliberately made
00:23:30it like this to see how
00:23:33dogs actually work, how much they can find, mm,
00:23:37actually for one search we have 20 minutes and after
00:23:40that it stops, now how much the dog managed to find in
00:23:4420 minutes, actually the dog and the handler, because they work
00:23:47as a team, after that we had this search in nature,
00:23:51it was a simulation that a landslide
00:23:55happened, we also didn't know how many victims
00:23:58there were and only at the end when it was over, we had of course
00:24:01a night search and a search in a kind of
00:24:04collapsed factory
00:24:07mm and after, I don't know, three days we finally
00:24:11found out, actually the judges told us
00:24:14how many victims there were and how many dogs
00:24:17found and actually when I saw those results, then I was very
00:24:21satisfied, at the beginning I must say that we
00:24:24came and immediately started the
00:24:27search process,
00:24:30somehow when other handlers were returning saying we found five, we found
00:24:33six, this, you know,
00:24:37our Đurđa found two, I was a bit disappointed,
00:24:40then at the briefing when it was for them as if
00:24:44there were only, for example, two people in the rubble,
00:24:47like that, so there were also
00:24:51some false mm
00:24:54mm traces,
00:24:57they set out food scents
00:25:00and human scents that were not actually
00:25:04there, cadaver scents, that is
00:25:07dead people, just to see if the dog would actually
00:25:11bark, that is mark a living
00:25:14person or if it would, and she did mark a living person both times,
00:25:18so she didn't fall for those false trails.
00:25:20"she didn't fall for these
00:25:23false trails, yes, she managed to
00:25:27find all of them she marked
00:25:30actually live people in some situations the guide was
00:25:34not allowed to enter the search zone, so how does that look, how much
00:25:38are you there, how much does communication with you
00:25:41mean to her, your proximity or some instructions that you give her or do you just let
00:25:45her into that search zone and simply there is communication
00:25:49it must - this must exist because the dog
00:25:52somehow expects from you which
00:25:56way you will send it and how does
00:25:59that communication actually look like, actually
00:26:02this? "The ruin was such that it was fenced off with tape.
00:26:06We were immediately told at the beginning
00:26:08that the dog could be released
00:26:12into the ruin. You as rescuers cannot
00:26:16go into the ruin because it is unsafe for you.
00:26:20M, actually, that is very difficult because we cannot
00:26:23see when the dog
00:26:27marks where it marks. For example, I had a case
00:26:31where... Djurdja marked, but I couldn't,
00:26:34since these are huge ruins, I couldn't see where
00:26:38she marked, and since I get that sticker, I mark
00:26:41where, I stuck it in front of Djurdja instead of
00:26:45behind, which is a mistake,
00:26:48but it is very, very, very important because
00:26:51with the dog, you also practice
00:26:55that directing, all of that means that on command
00:26:58by voice and hand, it can be sent from one part, from one segment,
00:27:02to another segment, that it can be recalled if
00:27:06there is danger and so on. What was the
00:27:09most challenging moment for you during the performance in Beijing? Well, actually, the
00:27:13most challenging moment for us was this journey that we had to
00:27:16make, because it was 28 hours, about 30
00:27:20hours, about 30 hours, it was even longer on the way back
00:27:24actually, because due to, let's say,
00:27:27problems with dog transport, because
00:27:31the dog needs to go to the cabin with us to the world
00:27:34competition because it is very stressful for the dog to go
00:27:38to, as they are down there in the cargo
00:27:40hold. M, we were denied
00:27:44by two airline agencies
00:27:48to fly with them, and then we had to drive to
00:27:50Budapest to travel, then by plane to
00:27:54Cairo, then 5 hours of waiting,
00:27:57then to Beijing, that is very exhausting for the dog,
00:28:01especially since... "For example, in Cairo,
00:28:05place for dogs to relieve themselves or anything like that,
00:28:08so that it is perhaps a little
00:28:12very stressful and all that, that the dog has to endure for 30 hours,
00:28:15this
00:28:17was there anyone from other
00:28:21rescue teams who traveled at least approximately that much? Yes, yes, yes,
00:28:24there were other
00:28:28ones, there were even from Argentina,
00:28:32for example, and they went via Paris, then
00:28:35mm, that's how it is,
00:28:39with the fact that, well, most airline agencies
00:28:42do not
00:28:44allow dogs to be transported
00:28:48in the cabin unless they are real service dogs,
00:28:52even though they are search dogs, so it is not easy
00:28:55to get to Beijing with a dog, and it was, it was
00:28:59certainly, how many days were you there, how long did all that last? "When did you
00:29:03return? M, we arrived, then
00:29:06we returned on Wednesday evening, so we were there for about, let's say, five
00:29:10full days, considering that
00:29:13we were late, we should have been there for a little over seven days.
00:29:17And what makes Djurdja special, what did you conclude
00:29:20and learn about Djurdja, after Beijing
00:29:23and what are her
00:29:27most important qualities that have come to light now? Well, I think
00:29:31it's perseverance. Actually,
00:29:34that she doesn't give up, that
00:29:37no matter how difficult it is, actually,
00:29:40and there, when we were looking, it was very hot, very, very
00:29:43high humidity, very hot, so that
00:29:47all of that, let's say, for her, was very, very difficult,
00:29:50she, despite all that fatigue and all that, was persistent and
00:29:54did not interrupt the search once, even though she had
00:29:58three searches in one day, so I can say
00:30:01perseverance and... "She was great on the plane, she was
00:30:04calm, even now here, so I absolutely had no
00:30:08problems, I thought, since it was our first time flying,
00:30:11that it would be a little, especially with many people,
00:30:15and she is cheerful by nature, likes to play, she was
00:30:18completely excellent.
00:30:21And how much did you learn during your stay there,
00:30:25that is, communication with other teams, that is, with other
00:30:28guides, at what level is it generally
00:30:31with us?" "What is the attitude of the state itself towards search
00:30:35dogs, guides, towards all these trainings that you
00:30:39have to go through and simply towards understanding
00:30:42the importance of having a sufficient number of search
00:30:46dogs in our country? Well, actually, I think we are still
00:30:49at some beginnings, especially, let's say, that
00:30:53attitude of the state
00:30:56and society itself towards search dogs.