Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00which is to open up trade, when you open up trade, then you have
00:00:04heft, because there is no way any of us can compete with
00:00:08china, they are the biggest par, so i
00:00:11of honestly
00:00:12i would think it would be a country as big and as with so
00:00:16many decades of civilization should understand this that
00:00:20it pays to open up for trade, and if you do that then
00:00:24it will start getting somewhere, right
00:00:25in now
00:00:26of it is, it's a bit one way and some someone like say for
00:00:30example, South Africa, they are, they have huge amount of exports
00:00:34to China and
00:00:35of that they have actually export surplus, which is great for
00:00:38them, but for us it's the other way around, there's a huge deficit, so
00:00:42we need to work on that. I think it's not only the quantum of
00:00:46trade, it's also the nature of trade.
00:00:50China is a manufacturing country, it has to
00:00:53realize that it can't remain the
00:00:57only major manufacturing country. breaks
00:01:00other countries to have to
00:01:02join.
00:01:19of
00:01:33of Economic cooperation has always been at the heart of
00:01:37of breaks from trade in investment to connectivity and new development
00:01:40opportunities. What opportunities does a stronger bricks mechanism
00:01:44create for Iran over to Tehran. Thank you. Trade
00:01:48and investments are certainly key issue for brix
00:01:52of members. As Brick cooperation expands, could new economic corridors and
00:01:55partnerships
00:01:56of create fresh opportunities for the region. Something will get. into with
00:02:00our guest next. For that segment, we are now joined
00:02:04by a Paul Cookrin, independent journalist whose work has appeared in the
00:02:08middle east eye and Reuters. Paul, the question that I wanted
00:02:12to uh ask you first is, what role could a bricks
00:02:16financial institutions actually playing helping circumvent the
00:02:19US dominated financial networks? there's long been
00:02:23a move to try and uh move away from US dominance
00:02:27and from the dominance
00:02:28of the US dollar. uh the creation of bricks
00:02:31a several years ago accelerated and pushed this, we're still not
00:02:35there
00:02:36of yet, um, the US dollar
00:02:38of still dominates global transactions,
00:02:42um, it's it's on the decline, in 2000, it was around
00:02:4672% of all international transactions were
00:02:48in and reserves were in US dollars, that's dropped to
00:02:5256%, um,
00:02:55in but that's up 1% on last year, so while it's down a lot and we're seeing, we've
00:02:59been seeing... decoupling from the US dollar, it did
00:03:02increase slightly last year, however
00:03:06that is looking like it set to decline further and further over
00:03:10time, and the actions
00:03:11of the
00:03:12of the Trump administration
00:03:13in the United States over the last few years has certainly accelerated that as
00:03:17more and more countries look to the couple from the dollar and define
00:03:21alternative systems for for transferring money
00:03:24around. um, we're seeing that particularly with with
00:03:28the bricks of course,
00:03:30of bridge, there's the embridge platform for transactions, which is
00:03:34similar to swift, the swift transfer system, which has been
00:03:38the global dominant one for over 40
00:03:41of years, that's operated outside of Belgium, but the
00:03:44of US has been controlling swift as a choke point um
00:03:48to
00:03:49of try to as a form of economic warfare against countries by blocking
00:03:52access to it. Iran's block to it, Syria was until
00:03:56recently, other countries at the
00:03:58of United States doesn't like the... just block access and they hold that over
00:04:02countries like a sort of sword of democc sword that they can
00:04:06just cut any country out whenever they want, so
00:04:09bricks led particularly by China, Russia and
00:04:13of others have been pushing forward for pushing their own
00:04:17transaction system, so they have this embedge system which is being used by number of
00:04:21central banks, also including the United Arab Emirates
00:04:25and Saudi Arabia, and those transactions have
00:04:28increased. potentially in the past year, they've
00:04:31really grown huge amount, so just transferring,
00:04:35making transactions between countries in their currencies
00:04:39rather than using the US dollar, the euro or other
00:04:43leading currencies, but it
00:04:46it's while this is
00:04:49of happening, it's it's a long long road ahead for the dollar to decline and
00:04:53of also for these transactions and alternative ways
00:04:56in to increase, but us
00:04:57of actions of in recent years have really pushed that. uh forward,
00:05:01starting
00:05:01of from of
00:05:03of 2022 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the US
00:05:06putting sanctions on Russia, Russia sought other
00:05:10ways to try and get around that um... 'then of course
00:05:14the sanctions on Iran, um, countries like China, which buys
00:05:1790% of Iran's oil, has been using alternative
00:05:21payment systems and countries are also hesitant
00:05:25now to keep using as much dollars or the US
00:05:29financial system, in case that's used against them, uh, we saw just in the
00:05:33past few weeks, for instance uh, the Netherlands, Holland moving
00:05:37lot of its gold reserves out the United States, back
00:05:41to to Europe, um, which is a sign that they are also
00:05:44concerned about potential actions the United States
00:05:48and how that could impact them economically um
00:05:52like by seasing their their gold reserves and that happened
00:05:56uh of course several years ago with Venezuela uh that's
00:06:00also happened with Russia and this is undermining
00:06:04countries uh trust and reliance in in the United
00:06:08States but also
00:06:09in in Europe uh in holding reserves there that they could be
00:06:13any time if they do something that is
00:06:17in their interest, but the united states or europe considers it's not in
00:06:21their interest, so they can just block and hold that
00:06:24off, but we're not only seeing this in terms
00:06:27of alternative transaction systems
00:06:31like bricks set up, and we're also
00:06:34seeing China and Russia develop their
00:06:37economic transactions and
00:06:40financial banks around the world. to develop systems as
00:06:43well, um, so all these sort of factors
00:06:46together
00:06:48are are are chipping away at the United States dominance, we're also seeing this
00:06:51crucially in sectors like energy where the petro
00:06:55dollar dominated for so long, where oil transactions
00:06:59payments were done in dollars rather than other currencies, which
00:07:03supported and helped the United States, we're seeing a
00:07:06shift away from that to what's been called the petro one, so payments
00:07:10in China's currency. uh we're also seeing bartering
00:07:14being used and other systems, so this is all slowly
00:07:18working away against that
00:07:19and as other systems start to develop and they just sort
00:07:23of really waiting in some ways for for just a sort of bigger push and
00:07:27wider acceptance as more and more payments get get done in
00:07:31that way, but there's a clear shift foot at the
00:07:33moment. now let's take a look at this
00:07:37infographics a bricks oil producing countries is the focus
00:07:41in this. infographics cumulatively breaks oil producing countries
00:07:45account for anywhere between 30 to 40% the oil
00:07:49production in the world. some the countries that contribute to this are
00:07:53listed here, countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia,
00:07:57India, UAE, China, and Russia. This can be used as a
00:08:00pressure point against the US since it uses pressure points
00:08:04against many other countries. Paul, my second question to
00:08:08you is the US can use its position in the global financial system?
00:08:12them to restrict countries access to international finance, breaks
00:08:16initiatives around local currency settlements, alternative
00:08:20payment systems and financial cooperation could give countries
00:08:24more option outside of this system. where do you think
00:08:27things is stand at this
00:08:30moment?
00:08:34as more and more trade happens between countries, it does reduce the
00:08:37reliance on the US, particularly if that trade is being
00:08:41done um outside the US payment systems, we've
00:08:45seeing that increase, particularly in countries that are
00:08:48sanctioned, in countries that are trying to avoid the US payment
00:08:51system, but when it comes to to just
00:08:55sort of trade itself in the United States, I mean the
00:08:58United States is not a huge
00:09:02manufacturer that people are buying from, what they're buying more
00:09:05from the United States is software, entertainment
00:09:09system using the financial sector, and that...
00:09:12where uh countries can't really totally avoid
00:09:16that, and that's also area where we've seen in particularly like
00:09:19telecommunications, the internet, that the US still
00:09:22dominates globally on that and is using its
00:09:25leverage against countries and to push its own own
00:09:29agenda. um, also, I mean,
00:09:33but in terms of of trade, particularly with with
00:09:37China, I mean China is still such huge manufacturer, the world's leading
00:09:40one, and lot of countries. are buying of course from China
00:09:44um and so if
00:09:46that they're buying and have exchanges of goods uh those are going to increase
00:09:50without necessarily using the dollar, they'll be using more than one
00:09:53the Chinese currency and others as well
00:09:57um but the the global south well there is lot
00:10:01of trade with each other and into it's still skewed very
00:10:05much in terms the north buying particularly the products the goods the
00:10:09resources of the global south and this big trade.
00:10:12balances and of course lot the global south
00:10:16to the north so some of that money that interest is being used
00:10:20to service those debts because we still very much have
00:10:24economic um around being exploited for
00:10:27its resources, being exploited for its
00:10:30resources that are not developed into value added goods that are not
00:10:34developed into value added goods, those are then shipped to
00:10:38the to Europe and the United States and turned into more valuable
00:10:41goods, so as long as we still have those sort of imbalances
00:10:45in trade and that economic model is still going on, we're not going to
00:10:49see the sort of shift that some might hope
00:10:53until there sort of further economic. developents
00:10:56now, the third question that I had, Paul, is shifting
00:11:00global economic power, bricks has um become much larger in
00:11:04that sense, its members right now include China, India, Russia,
00:11:07Brazil, Iran, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia,
00:11:11Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, giving the
00:11:14group considerable demographic and economic
00:11:18weight, why haven't global institutions uh been given
00:11:22greater representation to the global south, and
00:11:25emerging economies, this issue has been a
00:11:29pressing one for for decades and has certainly taken on more importance in
00:11:33recent years and
00:11:35the global south has long been demanding a
00:11:38bigger representation and more seats
00:11:42uh at global institutions such as the world bank, international monetary
00:11:46fund um to have to have more of a say in and how global
00:11:50policy is done and directed uh but of course these
00:11:53institutions were set up by United States and Europe in the aftermath
00:11:57of World War II, and they were very much set up to
00:12:01push western interests and to and to
00:12:03keep uh to keep the economic system in their
00:12:07advantage rather than than
00:12:10listen to the the genuine concerns of others elsewhere in the
00:12:14world, so the rules, the financial
00:12:16system, it's all very much been set up in in
00:12:20favor of of the west, and they've used and abused that, and they don't want to
00:12:24see... that undermined
00:12:27um they are concerned that the bricks as it becomes larger
00:12:31uh will will chip away at that will will develop its own
00:12:35system will want
00:12:35to have more of a say um but of course the the west has also been
00:12:39trying to very much has been following a policy long use
00:12:43called the sort of divide and conquer but trying to create divisions within the bricks
00:12:47members because the bricks members of course are not all
00:12:51ideologically aligned I mean we're talking very different uh
00:12:55politics, different economies, different outlooks and
00:12:59different interests and agendas that they want to do, and
00:13:03so the west has been trying to to break that up and to divide them more so that they
00:13:07can't have a more consolidated
00:13:11and forceful position on that, and I think we've seen
00:13:15that also with the terms of of in terms of bricks trying to
00:13:18develop say its
00:13:20own own currency and own systems, why they are
00:13:23growing, there's not... being the unity that sort of really
00:13:26needed there to really challenge that that western
00:13:30dominated financial system, there's also of course
00:13:34been the sanctions against members
00:13:37of bricks and the
00:13:40use of us financial warfare against the
00:13:44economies and and the sanctions and threats of those have
00:13:48met that some countries in the bricks such as Saudi Arabia, the
00:13:52UAE for instance, long timeime allies
00:13:56as well that they've been uh more reluctant to to
00:14:00push
00:14:00this further, still being relient very much on the US on many
00:14:04fronts, but we've also seen countries like Saudi
00:14:07Arabia move away from the petrodollar for oil
00:14:11payments and and and move to and accepting others other payments
00:14:15and the UAE as well, so we're seeing a
00:14:19shift on on that front and particularly as they're such big
00:14:22economic players and particularly in the... markets, this
00:14:26this is a bigger ramifications. independent journalist,
00:14:30thank you so much for your time
00:14:31today.
00:14:37india remains one the most influential members of bricks
00:14:41and its role will be closely watched at this summit. what
00:14:44expectations does India have for the future development of bricks? let's hear
00:14:48from our colleagues in New Delhi. thank you Krash. from India's
00:14:52perspective, bricks is increasingly becoming a platform. for cooperation among
00:14:56developing countries, but beyond economics, can it contribute to
00:15:00a more balanced global governance system? let's break down the final
00:15:03nuances of this with our guests here in the studio. now ambassador
00:15:07Kaju, when we talk about the economic dimension of this
00:15:10summit, we also know that reducing dependence upon the US dollar
00:15:14is also going to feature prominently in the discussion because we have Iran, we
00:15:18have Russia, we have China, all them are a way pushing for these
00:15:22alternative financial mechanisms, but India has again made it clear it
00:15:26stance that
00:15:27it is not typically or it is not um
00:15:30you know very straight forward out there saying that we are
00:15:33anti dolar we want to challenge the western hegemony now how do
00:15:37you think India is going to balance the kind of aggressive post that we might be
00:15:41getting from within the block itself? look, India's position is
00:15:45always been clear, the dollar is the principal currency
00:15:49the world and it's likely to remain so.
00:15:53ironically the push for
00:15:55dedollarization is coming from the United States
00:15:59because of its sanctions regimes and
00:16:02here India's position again is very clear
00:16:06that if ' interests compel us to
00:16:10trade with countries which are under sanctions,
00:16:14then we'l find ways and mechanisms to finance that
00:16:17trade, and to that extent our
00:16:21interests and the interests of those who are ideologically committed
00:16:25to dedollarization coincide, but not
00:16:29beyond that, but having said that,
00:16:33now Dr. Karta, I would like to take that, I not further with you, because India views...
00:16:37as a tool to um reform the existing global mechanisms which are in
00:16:41place and this is to give the global south greater representation
00:16:45while resisting the you know temptation to make it anti-western in any of
00:16:49its manifestations but many members within the grouping they
00:16:53are facing these heavy western sanctions as ambassador was also
00:16:56mentioning they are likely to approach the global governance through a more defensive
00:17:00lens here now given the clashing visions and the
00:17:03specific reforms which India realistically can champion through the bricks
00:17:07it do you think that is going to make the international order more
00:17:10inclusive and this without compromising its ties with the United States
00:17:14the west? how will it pull that off? that's going to be
00:17:18extremely difficult in the WTO at least. mean
00:17:22again if you look at the pattern of behavior in WTO, by and large
00:17:26bricks has you
00:17:27know been on the same side, not because their interest. it's not a
00:17:31bricks thing, it is an individual countries interest. number two,
00:17:35if i can just add to what we said
00:17:36the sanctions. issue like you said is is what can you do if there are sanctions i
00:17:40still have to trade with that person
00:17:43but see these are all now in the in the in the longer
00:17:47you know view this is a temporary thing this is going to
00:17:50go so as we go forward I would prefer not to
00:17:54have dedollarized economy it doesn't suit me but in in
00:17:58in terms of for example the bricks there are things like innovation the innovation
00:18:02centers in China which I would like it to boot up innovation is good for
00:18:06everybody it's not. not anti-west
00:18:08or anything, it's just innovation by itself, so everything that you
00:18:12correctly said earlier, everything that we are
00:18:15bulleting on bricks is to do with this with
00:18:19this evolution in terms of going forward in multiple areas which
00:18:23matter on the ground, trade is one, there's no doubt, agriculture
00:18:27by the way, many of us are on different platforms, the bricks is not
00:18:31together and agriculture, but by and large, i think the
00:18:34sanctions issue is the defining problem. and that is
00:18:38uniting bricks, which is the
00:18:40irony, but having said that, we know
00:18:44that if we have to trade, if we look at this,
00:18:47mean primarily with the view of Iran here, we do that the prime
00:18:51minister during the SEO, he said that India would want to expand and
00:18:55diversify the trade basket with Iran, now we know that it has come a
00:18:59particularly difficult moment because the financial infrastructure and the trade
00:19:03restrictions, it's made it so complex to actually make it happen
00:19:06theoretically, is one thing, but of course in practice it's going to be a completely different
00:19:10challenge, but with this protectionism and this
00:19:13unilateralism that we're seeing on the rice, can bricks help defend this
00:19:17multilateral trading system and also open up the market, ambassador Kaju, according to
00:19:21you, I think it will be difficult,
00:19:24because American influence and western influence
00:19:28in general on world trade patterns are still very
00:19:32strong, the Chinese of course are the factory the
00:19:36world and everyone has to... to to deal with
00:19:39China, as you rightly mentioned, the
00:19:43American Chinese economic relationship is very strong and will remain
00:19:47so despite all their political differences, but for
00:19:50others it's difficult to navigate these
00:19:53differences, but if you permit
00:19:57me, there is one issue which will which unites
00:20:01breaks, and if I may change, if you permit me
00:20:05to change that theme, and that's climate change. Yes, we've just
00:20:09seen this disaster in Nepal,
00:20:12and except for the Americans who are climate,
00:20:16under President Trump are climate skeptics, all of
00:20:20us are united in this one issue,
00:20:24and if there is one theme which I think can really unite
00:20:27bricks, it's the need to combat
00:20:30anthropogenic climate change. What ambassador,
00:20:34doctor, would you agree that that is of course one the biggest denominators which
00:20:38has brought all these countries together, but is there anything else where we can,
00:20:42after all, despite our differences and despite our different strategic interests
00:20:46can find common ground? i would totally
00:20:50back the climate issue because if you look at the cl world report
00:20:54on these things, this is the area which is most prone to
00:20:57you climate disasters, mean they predicted this, it's nothing
00:21:01new, so
00:21:02that yes, but translating that on the ground, it's all very well at
00:21:06cop meetings to say that, oh yeah, we are all you know united, how
00:21:10do you get that to work, for example in urban development, how do you make
00:21:14sure that the cities grow a way that it's not like
00:21:18for example china's d which is become one of major
00:21:21issue, I'm not, I'm not going to comment deeply on that because I am not an
00:21:25expert, but I would assume that something on the great bend for example on
00:21:29the Brahmaputra is completely environmentally
00:21:32disastrous, so I hope that this recent
00:21:36Nepal disaster and China reacted very well to that,
00:21:40hopefully that will come out, but the second thing I want to say
00:21:42is, I mean this is something I feel strongly
00:21:46about why are we being targeted because
00:21:50the war, I mean, we are told don't import oil from Iran, don't import oil
00:21:54from Russia, I've got nothing to do with the war, I didn't start the
00:21:57war or any of us in, we didn't start this war,
00:22:01so we need Russia also to come forward, but Russia can't do it
00:22:04alone, there are two sides to the war, so one, I hope there
00:22:08is something comes out the bricks to end these wars which are
00:22:12damaging our economies hugely, that is a common interest,
00:22:16all of us have been it badly, do you also think that? Since we
00:22:20are talking about multipolarity here, we're trying to create these different points of
00:22:23influence and decentralized perhaps such
00:22:27hegemonized power that we saw in the west, but in the process it also does
00:22:31give rise to polarization and which we have
00:22:34seen play out in multiple aspects, here we are going to see iran sitting on the
00:22:38same table with Saudi and the UAE, India and China are going to
00:22:42sit at the same table, but again do you think that also risk creating
00:22:46these polarized opinions which can also perhaps become you know anti?
00:22:50to what we are trying to do with bricks or can we overcome that given the
00:22:54larger denominator that you guys just mentioned ambassador
00:22:57look national interests of all countries
00:23:01member states of bricks included do not necessarily
00:23:04coincide and it is the test
00:23:08of diplomacy and leadership to
00:23:12find methods of reconciling different
00:23:15differences so that you can come to common a common
00:23:19ground. and this involves difficult process
00:23:22of give it take, and it is here that I
00:23:26think our prime minister is
00:23:30well placed, he is always advocated dialogue and
00:23:34diplomacy and now he can push for it
00:23:37in this present
00:23:41bricks summit, because this the world
00:23:45is a very dangerous situation and all of us are suffering,
00:23:49there's no... which is unaffected by it, so
00:23:52therefore wisdom would lie in
00:23:55Iran and hopefully in Saudi
00:23:59Arabia and in the UAE to find common
00:24:03ground when there is advocacy
00:24:07from for it from other member states.
00:24:11Having said that ambassador, then what kind of an international order do you think
00:24:15that you
00:24:16know India hopes that bricks would be able to build?
00:24:20"I think an order which is not dominated
00:24:23by two major
00:24:27countries, but an order where the
00:24:30interests the other parts, including India and
00:24:34the global south are taken into account,
00:24:38the voices the global south have to be heard, because the
00:24:42challenges and we mentioned climate change, the challenges from climate
00:24:45change are being felt acutely in the
00:24:49glob'. global south and
00:24:52unless we find
00:24:55some ways to reconcile differences on these issues which
00:24:58divide us, we will all suffer, we all,
00:25:02i've always believed we all on the same planet, there's no way of
00:25:06getting out of it, and that is the message that
00:25:10resonated quite well with lot of people when prime minister during the SEO
00:25:13said that we need to move away from these endless wars to the end of
00:25:17war, and having said that, that is als become the basis of India stunce
00:25:21which it has reiterated multiple times over and over again and this
00:25:25diplomacy we hope that it can bring about a positive change but having said that doctor I
00:25:29would also like to get your take on this what kind of international order what
00:25:33kind of emergal emerging structure and architecture for the world that we're building do
00:25:37you think that India would want to come out the brings? well
00:25:41I would say then you have to stop
00:25:43this was which based themselves on
00:25:47civilian casualties and look at the immense. amount of civilian
00:25:50casualties, you go fight, armies fight each other all the time, that's why they are
00:25:54there, but this kind of wars which we're seeing now
00:25:58where defenseless people and children are being targeted, this has to stop.
00:26:02and that is where when we say, and that's not just moral
00:26:06principle, it's a principle on which if you have
00:26:09to have an order,
00:26:11like you said, then that means something, there is meaning to the word order, you can't just
00:26:15do whatever you like and say, there's an international order, there isn't,
00:26:19so if there is vacuum now which, so if there is vacuum
00:26:23now which there is, perhaps bricks can fill that with
00:26:27some value based international order which is also practical in terms
00:26:31of. during your economic objective, thank you so much both for joining us and
00:26:35sharing your perspective with us, thank you, thank you, thank
00:26:38you,
00:26:57as India hosts the brick summit in New Delhi, the gathering goes beyond a
00:27:00meeting of emerging economies. from trade and finance to
00:27:04technology, regional tensions, climate action and sustainable
00:27:07development. The summit offers an opportunity to turn shared
00:27:11challenges into practical cooperation, and for New Delhi,
00:27:15a more inclusive, balanced and multipolar global order will
00:27:19ultimately depend not only on dialogue, but on the ability to
00:27:23translate common aspirations into common action. And
00:27:27as we look beyond the summit itself, the bigger question is what
00:27:31comes next. can bricks turn growing political momentum into
00:27:35concrete cooperation and can it become a stronger voice for the
00:27:38global south and west Asia? let's hand over to
00:27:42Tehran. yes, thanks for your valuable insight from
00:27:46New Delhi's a studio. what you have mentioned will ultimately be the test of this
00:27:50summit, not simply what is discussed, but what can be
00:27:53delivered. thank you to our colleagues in New Delhi and thank you to all our
00:27:57panelists for joining this Tehron New Delhi's discussion.
00:28:01this year's break some that comes a critical moment for both the organization
00:28:05and a wider international system. bricks is not simply
00:28:09economic grouping, but increasingly important platform for
00:28:13cooperation. for Iranda summit also presents an
00:28:16opportunity to deepen economic, technological and financial
00:28:20cooperation, while using multilateral cooperation to
00:28:24translate its growing political weight into concrete cooperation is
00:28:28stronger global governance and tangible development
00:28:31benefits. Thanks again to our colleagues in New Delhi and guests in the
00:28:35Tehran studio that will wrap up this special edition on brick
00:28:39summit. I'm Krash Punemati in Tehran. See you next
00:28:42time.
00:29:15Crisis devastating wars,
00:29:18terrorism, the Israeli
00:29:21lobby,
00:29:25crackdown,
00:29:29diplomacy.
00:29:33Global economy suffering hormos closure.
00:29:36The
00:30:01headline. Iran's IiaA NY slams the
00:30:05International Atomic Energy Agency for referring Iran's nuclear file to the
00:30:09Security Council saying the move has no legal basis.
00:30:13The Yemany Armed forces say they have conducted a law