Brazil: Record News

20260915 15:00 UTC · 00:31:06 · 546 transcript segments · GDELT Visual Explorer · plain-text transcript · Event Map

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Transcript

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00:00:00because that advocation was
00:00:03banned among us since the
00:00:06constitution, there is no vocation,
00:00:10vocation among equals, your
00:00:12Excellency's robe is equal to mine, your Excellency is the president, I am
00:00:16more modern, therefore, of lower symbolic
00:00:19hierarchy, but your Excellency's robe is
00:00:21equal, why is it equal? Because this is a court of
00:00:25equals, being a court of equals, we have to
00:00:29follow the... rule that governs the relationship between
00:00:32equals, what does this rule say?
00:00:36In no court in the country, none, it's
00:00:39not just in the supreme court, a president can dismiss a
00:00:43rapporteur,
00:00:46because if he does, Mr. President, look at the responsibility of
00:00:49those who wear robes and
00:00:52I know all sides, this is not a place for those who seek
00:00:56applause, this is not a place for those who seek...
00:01:00popularity, this is not a place, my friend Nelson
00:01:03Jobin used to say, to write biographies, this is a place to do
00:01:07justice, justice due process of
00:01:10law, if we accept avocacy,
00:01:13Mr. President, we will be opening an avenue of
00:01:17authoritarianism, of despotism, of tyranny
00:01:19in the courts that no one will
00:01:23control anymore, your Excellency is an
00:01:27purpose in the honest man, I have told you this many times and...
00:01:30here your Excellency is an honorable man, an honest man, well
00:01:33intentioned,
00:01:35but well-intentioned people also make mistakes, there is a famous song by
00:01:39Chico César about this, what
00:01:42protects us, your Excellency, me and everyone, the
00:01:45imperfect beings that we are, from error, the collegiate
00:01:49body, the law, imagine, Mr. President, if your
00:01:53Excellency is an honest man, I repeat, but if
00:01:56we admit avocacy, we
00:01:59will go to... who knows at this
00:02:02point with so much corruption, in fact, I have never seen so much corruption in the Brazilian
00:02:06justice system, I mean, it is the most
00:02:08corrupt moment in the history of the judiciary
00:02:12in Brazil, and I say this with the authority of someone who has exercised
00:02:16judicature since
00:02:171994,
00:02:20unfortunately, which proves that there are
00:02:22errors, because there is so much talk about corruption in
00:02:26Brazil, corruption only increases.
00:02:30happened the it's this, that, this
00:02:33other, corruption only increases, in politics
00:02:37too, Minister Toffle worked in
00:02:41Congress, he knows what parliamentary amendments were, what they are
00:02:44today, so in this era of corruption we have
00:02:48to be firm in fighting
00:02:50dismissed, but he wasn't, it's here on the corruption, firm within the terms of the law, what happens, if
00:02:54we admit avocacy, Mr. President, your
00:02:57Excellency and this court will open an avenue of
00:03:00corruption, an avenue of trade in the
00:03:03courts, here the president of the
00:03:07OAB, I have the greatest respect for the OAB and for your
00:03:10Excellency, just as there are
00:03:13dishonest judges, dishonest politicians, there are
00:03:16dishonest lawyers,
00:03:19there is no sale of sentences without a lawyer
00:03:21buying,
00:03:24there is no passive corruption without active corruption, and look, to
00:03:28be fair, I even saw one. who was the party that bought directly, but
00:03:32usually it's a lawyer in the middle, now, if a
00:03:35president of a court can dismiss a
00:03:38rapporteur at his
00:03:41discretion,
00:03:43besides being inappropriate in light of the constitution, of the
00:03:47loman, of the code of criminal procedure and of the rules, the
00:03:51result is a disaster,
00:03:53Hobbs, Mr. President, Hobbs, war of all
00:03:57against all, the rapporteur of the... of the
00:04:01INSS drawn is Minister André
00:04:03Mendonça, I even disagree with
00:04:07his conduct, as your Excellency said at the beginning, but
00:04:10I disagree in the records, I cannot take
00:04:13his process, neither I nor your Excellency, he is the
00:04:17rapporteur, natural judge, Mr. President,
00:04:19pre-constituted, it's in the constitution,
00:04:23so we have a principled question here, it's not a
00:04:27question of opportunity.
00:04:30What do the rules say, Minister Gilmar just said I wrote to him,
00:04:33in a situation of
00:04:36conflict, Minister André told the
00:04:40PF director to leave, I
00:04:43had two operations underway, Dark Ross Congressman
00:04:46Sezinha Amadureira, and I considered
00:04:49in the
00:04:52records that these operations would be frustrated, if Minister André's
00:04:55provision were carried
00:04:58out. He made a decision. also another, your Excellency could
00:05:02have intervened, not only could, but should and did
00:05:05well, he said this in the presidency, because I don't have two faces, I only have
00:05:09one, but the situation we are
00:05:13in here is different, Mr. President, there are no conflicting
00:05:16decisions,
00:05:18there was a decision by your Excellency so broad that your
00:05:22Excellency paralyzed an administrative process in the
00:05:25Attorney General's Office,
00:05:29of external control of police activity that is up to the Public Ministry to be
00:05:33prevented,
00:05:36see the danger that this means, because your Excellency
00:05:39emanates examples of...
00:05:42jurisprudence, so let's imagine tomorrow a president
00:05:46of a court requested, let's be kind, at the
00:05:49request of a politician, a prosecutor
00:05:53from a district, initiates a proceeding, the
00:05:57president of the court cancels ex officio, without a
00:06:00request,
00:06:04I think, I am one of those who think that
00:06:07corruption does
00:06:09not justify - fighting corruption with
00:06:13corruption, and here I am not referring, I repeat, in the
00:06:17sense of improbity, but in the Aristotelian
00:06:19sense, corrupted forms of exercise of
00:06:23power, and that is the reason, Minister Gilmar, why I brought
00:06:26the
00:06:28point of order to your Excellency, with all conviction, nothing personal against your
00:06:32Excellency, your Excellency will pass, I too, your Excellency
00:06:36can be
00:06:39eh, judge for 50 years, will pass. "I can be
00:06:43judge for 60, I will pass, of course, but we have to look
00:06:47at the whole, the forest, because
00:06:49with anxieties disasters occur
00:06:52and with
00:06:55eh this principled reason why
00:06:58I emphasize this, we have a
00:07:01judgment that your Excellency grants a part of the party with the
00:07:05permission of the minister who was voting,
00:07:08Mr. President, of course, I just want to conclude my
00:07:11proposal." What is the proposal of the point of order? The proposal
00:07:15of the point of order that Minister Gilmar will address is not that
00:07:19we suspend the judgment, but that we comply with the
00:07:22rules. What do the rules say, Mr. President? The
00:07:25rules say that your Excellency, when
00:07:28supposedly invoking a case, let's call it that, has to
00:07:31redistribute, it's written in article 67 of the rules,
00:07:34it's there and the rules say that your Excellency does not
00:07:38participate in the distribution, it's written in the rules, it's written
00:07:42to exclude. and from the president,
00:07:45so there is no avocacy, there is no self-designation of
00:07:48rapporteur, there is redistribution, in fact, it's in the code of civil
00:07:52procedure that Minister Fux helped to write,
00:07:55distribution, there was no distribution, there is no published
00:07:59agenda, the rapporteur was
00:08:02agenda, rapporteur ALM, André Luís Menonsa, it's
00:08:06him, so, Mr. President, I think we
00:08:09should, eh, I will return of course, before... coming your Excellency,
00:08:13of course, eh, but I will return to Minister Gilmar, I think we have to
00:08:17consolidate these cases, because your Excellency
00:08:20said that the cases are connected, your
00:08:23Excellency said, it wasn't me, it was your Excellency, in the
00:08:27dispatch that your Excellency,
00:08:31in inverted commas, invoked, your Excellency uses as
00:08:35justification for the
00:08:37invocation, eh, the
00:08:40connection.
00:08:42And to my surprise, your Excellency applies the institute of
00:08:46connection and does not apply the institute of
00:08:48connection, in the terms of the code of criminal procedure, it's
00:08:52there, 76, 77, 78, 79, just
00:08:56look at 79, the connection implies unity of process and
00:08:59judgment, comma, except, it's
00:09:03there, so if your Excellency
00:09:06split without justification and without being the judge
00:09:09of the case, we have to... and this is the
00:09:13objective of the point of order, to consolidate the cases for the 23rd,
00:09:16your Excellency did not schedule for the 23rd to judge Minister
00:09:19André, eh, so we
00:09:22consolidate in the terms of the code of criminal procedure, in the
00:09:26rules, your Excellency redistributes, because it's in the
00:09:29rules, your Excellency redistributes the cases, applies the
00:09:32rules, redistributes and we appreciate them together, next
00:09:36week, because I repeat, if we admit these
00:09:40practices, Mr. President, it's...
00:09:42one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the judiciary in Brazil,
00:09:46the return of avocacy,
00:09:48the power of eh monocratic, I'll call it that, of the president
00:09:52to self-designate rapporteur, something that
00:09:55jurisdictionally does not exist, and this here is jurisdictional matter, it is not administrative
00:09:59matter, but I listen Mr. President and I thank your kindness
00:10:03then of course I return to Minister, thank you very much Minister Dino, let's
00:10:06debate this topic and I believe
00:10:09that we have some questions. of
00:10:12points of view that are common your Excellency who
00:10:16is much younger than me, I was a young boy in
00:10:191978
00:10:21when I attended a conference.
00:10:25at the seventh national conference of the OAB on the rule of
00:10:28law by Minister
00:10:31Evandro who argued
00:10:35precisely this, with which we agree:
00:10:38avocacy is indeed an instrument of
00:10:41authoritarian and arbitrary regimes,
00:10:44therefore eh, even because of my
00:10:48trajectory,
00:10:51I would recommend some caution in qualifying...
00:10:55an act as an avocacy, there
00:10:57is no decision whatsoever on my part
00:11:01invoking the records, the records were forwarded
00:11:04and I read in the report, your Excellency heard from the
00:11:08rapporteur minister to the presidency, and
00:11:11why did I conclude, and I may be mistaken,
00:11:15because the natural judge to judge this matter is the plenary
00:11:19and it is being charged
00:11:23and we are going to... decide this, if we can
00:11:27get there, eh, I hope we do, we are going to decide if
00:11:30what Minister André did
00:11:34by requesting that report from the police is correct or not
00:11:38correct, therefore,
00:11:41your Excellency refers it to the presidency so that the natural
00:11:45judge can report on this matter
00:11:48which obviously has in the terms of item
00:11:52one of article 5, the plenary as its...
00:11:55natural, therefore, Minister Dino, if we agree
00:11:58that it is necessary to follow the rules, as
00:12:02Stephen Holmes wrote, in a study that
00:12:05was successful at the time of the pandemic, the protocols
00:12:07save, the method saves, in this we agree,
00:12:11I just don't have the same
00:12:14perception as your Excellency of
00:12:17doing, I'm not saying your Excellency did, but doing an
00:12:20ad hoc hermeneutics, because I at
00:12:25no point designated
00:12:28any rapporteur, your Excellency assumes that I
00:12:32invoked the maximum rapporteurships of the cases, well, for us to understand this rapporteurship issue better, I'll talk now
00:12:35with the lawyer, I'll talk again, right, with the
00:12:39specialist lawyer in higher courts, Max
00:12:42Telesca, Doctor, this rapporteurship issue that
00:12:46Minister Flávio Dino just pointed out, for us to understand
00:12:50better, could it stay with the president of the court
00:12:53or not, would it have to have
00:12:55redistribution?
00:13:01In my understanding, Minister Faquim, he
00:13:03can, yes, eh, they are using a word called
00:13:07avocacy, which is an old action that was used in the Supreme Federal Court
00:13:11before the 1988 Constitution, which was considered an arbitrary
00:13:15instrument, a an
00:13:18undemocratic instrument, because
00:13:21it caused the president to interfere with the competence
00:13:25of another judge, but it is not about that, in my understanding,
00:13:29in my understanding, Minister eh Edson
00:13:32Faquin, due to the internal rules
00:13:35providing that the allegation of suspicion
00:13:38against a minister is reported by the
00:13:42president, as well as any
00:13:45unlawful act in the presidency in criminal
00:13:49matters that may have occurred,
00:13:53if there is a suspicion that the
00:13:56infringement of criminal law may have
00:14:00occurred in the Supreme Federal Court, it is also up to the
00:14:03presidency to open an inquiry
00:14:06into this matter, so
00:14:09I believe that, yes, Minister Faquim did not use
00:14:13an undemocratic
00:14:16instrument, he is within his own
00:14:19competence and he did so, now it is a question to
00:14:23be resolved, an important question that Minister Flávio Dino
00:14:27and Minister Gilmar Mendes are raising, they are important
00:14:29jurists with with a lot of knowledge,
00:14:33but I believe that Faquim is acting within his own
00:14:37competence. Doctor, at this moment, Minister André
00:14:40Mendonça speaks, let's listen for a bit, then we'll come back to analyze
00:14:43here with Doctor the quality of rapporteur, upon
00:14:46identifying that the messages among them referred
00:14:50to a minister of the court, I understood
00:14:54that neither. this moment was more at stake the court's own
00:14:58prerogative, in second place, based
00:15:02on article
00:15:0443 of the
00:15:07rules,
00:15:11because this court has understood over the last few years
00:15:14that not necessarily eventual
00:15:17practice of an illicit act that
00:15:21affects the court does not necessarily within the...
00:15:25it is not up to the president, article
00:15:2843 says: if a criminal offense occurs at the court's headquarters or
00:15:32premises, the president shall initiate an inquiry, so I understood
00:15:35that in light of the... action that had been
00:15:38taken until this moment in the
00:15:41court that other issues that directly
00:15:45impacted the court,
00:15:47could have a connotation of criminal
00:15:50offense, it would be up to the
00:15:52president, this one by himself, or
00:15:56delegating to another minister, just to clarify
00:15:59the reasons also to make here a defense in relation to
00:16:03Your Excellency. I conclude the gentle part.
00:16:07which with the acquiescence of Minister Gilmar, Minister Dino
00:16:11granted me, please, therefore,
00:16:14eh, to make this precision in terms of the
00:16:18facts, your Excellency was also loyal regarding
00:16:21the fact that
00:16:24Minister André Mendonça had decided something
00:16:28in relation to the position of the Director General of the Federal
00:16:31Police and your Excellency had decided the
00:16:35opposite. Therefore,
00:16:39in this area there were indeed conflicting decisions by
00:16:42two ministers and in the specific area that
00:16:45we are trying to start to
00:16:48examine, God knows if we will be able to
00:16:51advance, but we are trying to just examine, doctor,
00:16:55I would like your assessment now on the following, at this
00:16:58point in the championship, is it possible that the
00:17:02rapporteurship eh on the case that is being
00:17:05considered today in relation, for example.
00:17:16it will only return to Minister André Mendonça if there is the
00:17:20acceptance of the point of order, notice that Minister André
00:17:24Mendonça just commented exactly what I said
00:17:26earlier, that since there is the infringement, the
00:17:30possible infringement of criminal law, that is,
00:17:33the basis of the fake news inquiry is precisely this,
00:17:37there was an... expansion in that case so that
00:17:40there would be eh the appointment of a
00:17:42rapporteur and not the free distribution,
00:17:46in this case there is no need for an expansion
00:17:50of the norm that exists within the internal regulations, but
00:17:53the application of the norm itself, that is, there is a
00:17:57suspicion that an infringement of criminal
00:18:00law may have occurred in the Supreme Federal
00:18:04Court, therefore the competence belongs to the president of the
00:18:08Supreme Federal Court, based precisely on
00:18:11the article that gave Minister Toffle the possibility to
00:18:15appoint Minister Alexandre de Moraes as rapporteur for
00:18:18the fake news inquiry. So, doctor, for us to always translate for those who are
00:18:22watching at home, who often don't understand, right,
00:18:26these legal procedures, what is being discussed at this moment is a
00:18:30point of order from the minister raised by Minister
00:18:34Flávio Dino about today's rapporteurship, if it is appropriate.
00:18:43there are many legal concepts, we are talking here
00:18:47about competence, we are talking about jurisdiction, we
00:18:51are talking about an old action called
00:18:54avocacy that was and was eradicated, it
00:18:58no longer exists in the Brazilian legal system, but what is important for
00:19:02our eh viewer to understand is that
00:19:06the competence is being defined... who has the competence to judge
00:19:10the master bank and
00:19:12specifically, that is the point, who has the
00:19:16competence to judge the
00:19:18request for an investigation of a minister of the
00:19:22Supreme Federal Court also the allegation of
00:19:25suspicion of another minister of the Supreme Federal Court,
00:19:28that is what is being decided at this moment, a point of order, the point
00:19:32of order precedes the debate, it
00:19:35precedes, it needs to be a... preliminary, it, it, it needs to be
00:19:39decided, the point of order needs to be decided before the merits
00:19:43of the question are judged, which is the removal or not eh, of a
00:19:46minister. And who speaks at this moment is Minister Gilmar Mendes.
00:19:50Let's hear a snippet.
00:19:54Director of the Federal Police.
00:19:57Case placed at 10 am for
00:20:00judgment. Asked for a view at 10
00:20:03and 1.
00:20:07Unless I'm mistaken, at 10:04 Minister
00:20:10Castro had already voted, it was 22 pages of
00:20:13reasoning, at 10:06 Minister Fux had already
00:20:16voted,
00:20:21no problem, with the
00:20:24experience of a seasoned magistrate of so many years
00:20:28I knew something would happen
00:20:32that this could not happen, that it was even
00:20:36because any citizen who has a minimum
00:20:39notion of what the Federal
00:20:43Police means, which is an armed body, subject to
00:20:46hierarchy, would not remove
00:20:50a general director of the police, it's like removing the director, the president
00:20:54of
00:20:54NASA,
00:20:59or
00:21:01removing the commander of the army, it's not
00:21:05done, the person has to handcuff themselves
00:21:09before doing this kind of thing, when they have
00:21:12temptation, they have to ask God to intercede
00:21:15and not
00:21:16do it,
00:21:19because in... in fact to subject an institution
00:21:23that already lives all the problems it
00:21:26has,
00:21:31to this kind of shame is a lack of
00:21:35understanding of a
00:21:37seriousness that I have never seen,
00:21:40but let's proceed, let's proceed,
00:21:44regarding your Excellency, allow me a
00:21:46moment, please, I am the president of the second... of the panel,
00:21:50first to greet your Excellency, to greet your
00:21:54Excellency, our senior judge, to greet our
00:21:58senior judge, Minister Camin Luça, to greet,
00:22:01to greet the Prosecutor General of the Republic, the other
00:22:04members of the court, Mr. President
00:22:08eh the second panel
00:22:12perceived a series of deviations
00:22:15of
00:22:17actions of the director.
00:22:20of the federal police, this is even part of a very
00:22:23expressive passage of our manifestation.
00:22:27At that time, then, it was verified
00:22:31that we have the greatest admiration for the Federal Police. Your
00:22:35Honor has been a judge for 50 years. The federal justice has always worked
00:22:38in favor of the judiciary. What the federal justice cannot do, the
00:22:42federal police cannot work against the judiciary.
00:22:45To instrumentalize
00:22:48people to
00:22:50sustain positions against the judiciary,
00:22:52just this sending of this
00:22:55anonymous document
00:22:58is already an example
00:23:01significant of these deviations practiced by the federal police
00:23:05and for this reason we understood
00:23:06and if I remember correctly, your
00:23:10Excellency went to the presidential palace to say that they were
00:23:14responsible for this, because he allowed the federal police crisis
00:23:17with the supreme court to occur.
00:23:20No one ever imagined the federal police defying a minister of the Supreme Federal Court
00:23:24and that was what was happening, without prejudice
00:23:27to them instrumentalizing positions to
00:23:31degrade the court, everything started
00:23:34there and we understood that we should
00:23:38take a stand to stop this, as Minister
00:23:41Gilmar expressed himself before the
00:23:44presidential palace, your Excellency said this, it was
00:23:47your fault for not stopping this crisis. of the federal police
00:23:51against the minister, your Excellency has been a minister for more
00:23:54than 20 years, I have been a minister for
00:23:5716 years, I have never seen the federal police defy a minister of the Supreme
00:24:01Court, we understood that that represented an anomaly
00:24:04and would contaminate all judgments
00:24:08regarding serious facts reported, even
00:24:12more so, a proper agency
00:24:15was created there that would dedicate itself to
00:24:18wiretapping while minister. federal court, so what we
00:24:22did, out of our own conviction, not challengeable by any
00:24:25minister, there is no man in this world who will challenge
00:24:29my independence, I, as president of the panel, at the request of the
00:24:33rapporteur,
00:24:36I scheduled the process, what
00:24:40happened? We had this
00:24:43conviction in the panel, what happened? Who, who
00:24:46cast the first vote? I saw him asking for a... view to stop
00:24:50the judgment, if we had this objective, it was
00:24:54evidently that we should maintain the coherence of our
00:24:57decision and that is what happened,
00:25:00exactly because, recalling Minister Gilmamente's stance that he would never
00:25:03accept the federal
00:25:07police defying him and he did not admit it, I was already in the
00:25:10court when your Excellency crossed
00:25:13here the Avenue and went there to ask for the resignation
00:25:17of a director of the Federal Police.
00:25:21You remember the director there, right? Wasn't
00:25:24that what he asked for from those who had the right
00:25:26to do so? He decided in the right way, but
00:25:30wait a moment, let me just conclude then
00:25:33you don't have to tie anyone up to do this you have to have
00:25:37judicial responsibility you continue to follow
00:25:40this historic trial in the supreme federal court within
00:25:44the ora news with Pedro Salgado thank you for listening see
00:25:48you later.
00:25:55Hello, good afternoon to you who are live here with us on Record News
00:25:58following the STF session that analyzes the report
00:26:02of the federal police on the relationship between Minister
00:26:05Alexandre de Moraes and Daniel Vorcaro. Hora News will take a
00:26:08quick break and soon will return in full with this
00:26:12session. See you soon!
00:26:26On Alerta Brasil, you follow the main news to start the
00:26:30day well informed.
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Data courtesy of The GDELT Project (gdeltproject.org), from the Internet Archive TV News Archive. Film strip and transcript are GDELT's, rehosted here under their terms of use, which permit it with this citation.