Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
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00:03:46Hello, an excellent evening to you, on air, News 19 hours is starting, as it
00:03:50couldn't be otherwise, very hot news. The Supreme Federal
00:03:53Court began to evaluate today whether it will investigate Minister Alexandre de
00:03:57Moraes for an alleged exchange of messages with... former banker Daniel
00:04:02political electoral bias in the way the Vorcaro, but the session, as you followed throughout our programming,
00:04:04just ended and without a conclusion. Minister Flávio Dino
00:04:08asked for an adjournment while the score was 4 to 3 to maintain the
00:04:12division of the judgments of the actions against Mendonça also
00:04:15against Moraes. We're going live to Brasília, to talk to reporter
00:04:19Paloma Carvalho, who has the information about this
00:04:21judgment. Paloma, a great night to you, what a
00:04:25Tuesday.
00:04:31Really, really an intense day here in the Federal
00:04:34District, here in Brasília, but more specifically in the Supreme Federal
00:04:37Court, with this extraordinary session called by
00:04:41Minister André Mendonça, Edson Fachin,
00:04:44in fact, who is the president of the Supreme Federal Court,
00:04:48right, Rafa? And, as you well said, Minister Flávio Dino made the
00:04:52request for an adjournment, and now he has 90 days to better analyze this
00:04:56case, and this judgment was suspended, a judgment that would
00:04:59address... this alleged close relationship
00:05:03between Minister Alexandre de Moraes and former banker Danielar. So what
00:05:06happened? When this judgment resumed at
00:05:103:30 in the afternoon, because it started at 10:30 in the morning, so
00:05:13it was a very tense atmosphere, arguing between some ministers, a
00:05:17really tense atmosphere, and when they returned to
00:05:20the judgment around 3:30 in the afternoon, Minister Flávio Dino
00:05:24argued that Moraes's case should be analyzed and
00:05:28judged together with Minister André
00:05:31Mendonça, that is, on next September 23rd. So
00:05:33it would be the analysis, the analysis of the alleged relationship between
00:05:37Minister Alexandre de Moraes and former banker Daniel Vorcaro, with that Federal
00:05:41Police report. The intelligence report that exposed those
00:05:45message exchanges, right, those 52 messages
00:05:48sent by the former banker to Minister Alexandre de Moraes,
00:05:52and also the conduct of Minister André Mendonça in relation
00:05:55to the Master case. So during the judgment, what happened? Minister
00:05:59Flávio Dino sent an official letter to Minister Gilmar
00:06:03Mendes asking him to take the necessary measures,
00:06:06because Minister and President of the Supreme Federal Court,
00:06:09Edson Fachin, was infringing the
00:06:12internal rules of the Supreme Federal Court and even the Federal
00:06:16Constitution by conducting this case irregularly.
00:06:19So he sent a
00:06:23statement, an official letter to Minister Gilmar Mendes asking
00:06:26for the postponement of this judgment to September 23rd, the
00:06:29merging of the two cases, both that of Minister André Mendonça
00:06:33and that of Minister Alexandre de Moraes. What happened
00:06:36shortly after? Minister Gilmar Mendes accepted this
00:06:39statement, accepted Minister Flávio Dino's position and...
00:06:43made a point of order, so for this
00:06:46vote on the point of order, who voted on
00:06:49this point of order? Minister Gilmar Mendes voted for the judgment to
00:06:53be postponed to the 23rd, to join the two
00:06:57cases. Gilmar Mendes was accompanied by Ministers
00:07:00Cristiano Zanin, Alexandre de Moraes, precisely to
00:07:04join the two cases and postpone the judgment to the
00:07:0723rd. The president, Minister
00:07:10Edson Fachin of the Supreme Court, he voted for
00:07:13the two cases to be separated, really, that the
00:07:17judgment be separated, both that of Minister André Mendonça,
00:07:21and that of Minister Alexandre de Moraes. The vote of
00:07:24Minister Edson Fachin was accompanied by Ministers Luiz Fux
00:07:28and Minister André Mendonça. Minister Cármen Lúcia, in
00:07:32her vote, in her speech, which was truly
00:07:35sad, Minister Cármen Lúcia apologized to the Brazilian
00:07:38people, said she was ashamed of... this
00:07:42situation that has been happening in the Supreme Federal Court, which is experiencing
00:07:46its biggest crisis in history, right, which must decide, define
00:07:50whether it will really open an investigation against Minister Alexandre
00:07:54de Moraes within these messages, these alleged
00:07:57messages exchanged with the former banker Daniel
00:08:00Vorcaro. Now, the ministers, Dias Toffoli
00:08:03said he is suspicious, did not participate
00:08:06in the vote due to privileged forum. Minister
00:08:09Cássio Nunes Marques said he could not also participate, said he did not
00:08:13feel comfortable because he presides over the Superior
00:08:17Electoral Court, and also defended himself saying that there was never an
00:08:20exchange of messages between him and former banker Daniel
00:08:24Vorcaro. So, just to conclude, what was the
00:08:27score? So, this assessment is from
00:08:30our reporter Gabriela Coelho: a 4 to
00:08:343 score to judge Moraes on the 23rd, so they voted to
00:08:38judge everything together, to combine these two
00:08:41and Alexandre de Moraes's. The ministers
00:08:45Alexandre de Moraes participated in this vote, voted to combine the
00:08:48two cases and postpone the judgment to the 23rd, Minister
00:08:51Cristiano Zanin, Gilmar Mendes and Flávio Dino, but
00:08:55the vote of Minister Flávio Dino is not
00:08:58counted, since he made the request for an adjournment and has 90 days to
00:09:02analyze the case. Now, to separate the
00:09:05judgments, the minister and president of the Supreme Court,
00:09:08Edson Fachin, Minister Cármen Lúcia, Minister André Mendonça,
00:09:12and Minister Luiz Fux voted. So, on the
00:09:1523rd, we will follow the judgment of
00:09:18Minister André Mendonça, because the ministers of the Supreme Court
00:09:22have not even entered into the merits of the issue in
00:09:25relation to the mass case, these messages, right, alleged
00:09:28messages exchanged between Minister Alexandre de Moraes, he
00:09:31suspended, right, Flávio Dino, Minister Edson Fachin
00:09:34suspended this judgment, this extraordinary session, since
00:09:38Minister Flávio Dino requested an adjournment. So
00:09:41it was really... a very tense judgment, Rafael. Ministers
00:09:45exchanged barbs, Minister André Mendonça and Minister Alexandre de
00:09:49Moraes in the morning, regarding the Federal Police's actions.
00:09:52Minister André, eh Alexandre de Moraes even
00:09:56asked André Mendonça who would be afraid of the Federal
00:09:59Police. So it really was a, a kind of,
00:10:03I don't know, we could say, open quotation marks, a washing
00:10:07of dirty laundry, you know? It really was a very tense atmosphere among the ministers,
00:10:10President Edson Fachin always there trying to conduct it in the best
00:10:14way possible, and of course we will continue following it because the score is
00:10:184 to 3. I'm back with you, Paloma, thank you for the
00:10:21information. It was one of those sessions, we had two poles
00:10:25that we cannot ignore, very strong statements coming from
00:10:29Minister Gilmar Mendes, his statements were the most tense and
00:10:32delicate moments. And already at the beginning in the morning, what we saw,
00:10:36at least Flávio Dino also being very clear,
00:10:39very incisive with President Edson Fachin
00:10:42and questioning the attitude of changing the
00:10:46rapporteurships, anyway, we, of course, continue following, this will be the central
00:10:49theme of our newspaper, any other information, just let us know, good
00:10:59bickering, as I was just talking to Paloma, Alexandre de Moraes, André
00:11:03Mendonça, they even sat
00:11:06dynamic of the Supreme Court there, they interrupted each other several
00:11:09times, on one occasion Moraes again accused Mendonça of irregularities
00:11:13in the conduct of these investigations. Mendonça reacted to the
00:11:16provocations, and as I said,
00:11:19President, it's very easy, it's very
00:11:23easy to know if what is in the intelligence
00:11:27report is true or not, just
00:11:30summon the witnesses, and why is that? all
00:11:34over the world, all over the world, intelligence
00:11:37reports are treated
00:11:40as means of obtaining evidence, just like plea
00:11:44bargains. Minister André is absolutely
00:11:47right, an intelligence report is not
00:11:50evidence, it's not a means of obtaining evidence, it's not even... just
00:11:53call, just
00:11:57call the police officers who participated
00:12:00and who several and several times
00:12:03affirmed that Minister
00:12:06André inquired and requested that I be included in the
00:12:10investigation, my goodness, and here, President, here it's
00:12:14also important to say here that the fact is
00:12:17objective, my goodness, Minister André just
00:12:21said that the Federal Police sent data...
00:12:25eh about eventually the Prosecutor General
00:12:29and from that it arose, isn't
00:12:33that right, President? There was another tense
00:12:36moment in this session, the clash between Ministers André
00:12:40Mendonça and Gilmar Mendes. It was precisely during
00:12:43this discussion, around 6 PM,
00:12:47that Minister Flávio Dino then asked for an adjournment. Nobody would like to
00:12:51be here, we are here by duty.
00:12:55And so we can even evaluate if, oh, I shouldn't have done
00:12:59that, maybe today knowing the facts, it's impressive,
00:13:02President, that a person eh of the
00:13:04stature of the stature of
00:13:07Paulo, of Paulo Guedes, suffers this kind
00:13:11of insinuation. This yes, is
00:13:14frivolous. This yes, is
00:13:16frivolous. The subject invested with a
00:13:20policing sentiment along with
00:13:23his delegates, now I have the floor.
00:13:28It's impressive,
00:13:30it's impressive the blatant dishonesty of this subject, ah,
00:13:34the blatant dishonesty of your Excellency, Minister André.
00:13:37Respect me, Minister André. It's no joke, I'm not crying
00:13:40here, Minister, no crying here, Minister Fachin,
00:13:44respect Minister Fachin. If your Excellency, with all due respect, I need
00:13:47just one minute, Minister, I'm going to
00:13:50ask for an adjournment, no, I'm going to, I just need
00:13:53to clarify
00:13:55in this way we will, Minister Fachin, Minister Fachin,
00:13:59please, so you can understand a little of the mood of what we
00:14:02followed today, there was another moment, an exchange of barbs between Gilmar Mendes
00:14:06criticizing the selective secrecy of the documents of these
00:14:09investigations, he accused a political bias in the conduct
00:14:13of the decisions of his colleague André Mendonça, a delicate
00:14:16moment. Even the stones
00:14:20know
00:14:23that there is an unequivocal
00:14:27issue was conducted in the records of this PC of
00:14:301662 50 with all
00:14:33sincerity choice of date September
00:14:377th all this
00:14:39scenario
00:14:43involving this court in an election campaign, Your Excellency is being frivolous,
00:14:46Minister, frivolous, unduly frivolous.
00:14:49Frivolous. You don't have the floor, eh, let's
00:14:53wait, I will grant Your Excellency the floor. Your Excellency does not have the floor,
00:14:57Minister Gilmar, to conclude and will listen with
00:14:58tranquility.
00:15:02Evident political-electoral
00:15:05conduct, choice of September 7th,
00:15:08even bichulecos,
00:15:13this is not done, decent people don't do
00:15:17this, don't point fingers at me, Minister
00:15:20Gilmar, don't point fingers, you're not talking to just
00:15:24anyone, respect this court, whoever doesn't respect themselves doesn't
00:15:27deserve respect. The session had several questions about
00:15:31the rites that were adopted, with these criticisms involving,
00:15:34especially at the beginning of the session, around 10:30 AM.
00:15:38All the criticisms at that time involved Minister Edson, who is presiding over the
00:15:42Court at this moment. Minister Alexandre de Moraes alleged that there was no
00:15:46request for him to be investigated. He argued that this
00:15:49session would be dedicated to an evaluation of the PGR's request
00:15:52for nullity and also the extinction of this
00:15:56petition. The president of the Court, Edson Fachin,
00:15:58responded. First of all, regarding the delimitation
00:16:02of the object that I tried to do when
00:16:06I was concluding the report this morning, I
00:16:11topic, in fact I read the integral opinion of the
00:16:14PGR, all these terms that Your Excellency referred to,
00:16:18were by me, I, I didn't want to repeat so as not to be tiresome, right, from
00:16:21the prosecutor's office, no, but feel free and
00:16:24eh, therefore, that there is a raising of nullity
00:16:27and with the acceptance of the nullity, this leads
00:16:31to extinction, therefore, this plenary
00:16:35needs to examine this matter, there is no doubt whatsoever...
00:16:38if hypothetically the plenary
00:16:41does not accept this nullity, what is
00:16:44the consequence? I understood
00:16:47that as I received a referral to
00:16:51bring to the plenary in the terms,
00:16:53considering when then
00:16:57Minister André Mendonça was the
00:17:00rapporteur, that the information
00:17:03brought by the Federal Police in the report that is here
00:17:06in question... would be able to prompt the adoption
00:17:10of a proper procedural modality given the necessary
00:17:14observance of the rule contained in Article 5, paragraph 1, therefore
00:17:17the competence of the full court for what? Here
00:17:21Article 30, 33, alias
00:17:24of the sole paragraph, which is what I
00:17:27took into account, says: when in the course of
00:17:30an investigation there are indications of the practice of a crime by a
00:17:34magistrate, police authority, civil or military, it shall refer
00:17:37the respective records to the court, the special competent body for the
00:17:41judgment, in order to proceed with the investigation, that is, the
00:17:45court, if it does not
00:17:47accept the preliminary raised by the
00:17:50PGR, will decide, in my opinion, it needs to
00:17:53decide what the consequence will be, it can be those
00:17:57that Your Excellency is indicating. In the interpretation that
00:18:01I made, if the court does not accept the preliminary,
00:18:04it would be up to the court to say: I authorize, or I do
00:18:08not authorize the continuation of the investigation, and that is why
00:18:12when I delimited the object, I made reference to these two
00:18:15circumstances, the court needs to decide on the
00:18:17preliminary and, by rejecting the
00:18:21preliminary, it eventually needs to decide what it will do. In my opinion,
00:18:24the court, the plenary in this
00:18:28case would say: the investigation proceeds, or for
00:18:31some other reason the investigation does not
00:18:34proceed. You must remember that when the
00:18:37Federal Police issued those reports that were then delivered
00:18:41to Minister André Mendonça's cabinet, two names were
00:18:44mentioned. We have something that would be a reference to the
00:18:48Prosecutor General of the Republic, and we also had the
00:18:51Director General of the Federal Police, who was even removed. The PGR
00:18:55was present at today's session, spoke a little
00:18:58more about the accusations that were made,
00:19:01lamented this assimilation that was made of his image and a
00:19:05proximity with former banker Daniel.
00:19:09"There is no, nor did I
00:19:12have a close relationship with Mr. Vorcaro. The only
00:19:16encounter I had with Mr.
00:19:19Vorcaro took place with several authorities in
00:19:22April 2024. The only
00:19:26contact mediated by a
00:19:29lawyer was very brief and
00:19:32trivial." We are now going live with images from
00:19:36Brasília, 20.4 degrees there. To tune into Record News
00:19:39when you are watching our channel
00:19:42from there, just put it on channel 46 on your open TV to watch all our
00:19:46programming for free. I'm going for a short break and I'll be back soon
00:19:50to bring more information about what happens from then on with the
00:19:53request for an adjournment by Minister Dino and what rite should be followed,
00:19:57including for next week, the 23rd, to analyze
00:20:00this moment that happens with Minister André Mendonça. Don't go away, it's right
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00:24:46News 19 hours is back to discuss the debate we had today
00:24:50in the plenary of the Supreme Federal Court regarding the judgment of Minister
00:24:53Alexandre de Moraes in the Supreme Federal Court. We are now going to talk
00:24:57with Flávio de Leão Bastos, Professor of Constitutional Law at
00:25:01Presbyterian Mackenzie University. Professor, a great
00:25:04evening, it's a pleasure to have you
00:25:06here with us.
00:25:09Good evening, thank you all for the invitation and
00:25:12greetings to the Record News viewers. Professor, I wanted to start our
00:25:16interview by explaining to those at home from this
00:25:20moment, we have a decision that initially, when we heard
00:25:23the votes that were cast, a score of 4 to 4, where
00:25:27we would have a tie, when we look at it from this perspective,
00:25:30where today's session at the Supreme Court did not analyze
00:25:34the object, but rather a point of order, it is possible at this
00:25:38moment to make an interpretation and reach a conclusion, how
00:25:41this tie-breaking vote will be carried out, whether it favors
00:25:45a possible defendant, who would be the figure of Minister Alexandre de
00:25:48Moraes, or an... administrative matter, where in this
00:25:52case, Minister Faquim would be the
00:25:55one responsible for bringing us a
00:25:58verdict in this case.
00:26:01Well, uh. First it should be noted
00:26:04that the procedure we are
00:26:07observing is largely
00:26:11regulated by articles 134,
00:26:14135 of the internal rules of the Supreme Federal
00:26:17Court. However, uh this is
00:26:20an unprecedented case, uh with
00:26:23some situations not regulated. This was much
00:26:26discussed today, uh during the heated
00:26:30debates we had. Now with the
00:26:33request for a view by Minister Flávio
00:26:36Dino, we will have to wait up to 90
00:26:40days for the minister to form his
00:26:43conviction, because in theory, uh Flávio
00:26:46Dino, uh and any minister has the right
00:26:49to request a view when they understand that
00:26:52they need to better study the process or the
00:26:55preliminary matter in today's case. So he forms his
00:26:59conviction in up to 90 days. He needs to
00:27:03present uh his
00:27:06form his conviction the debate on this
00:27:10preliminary matter and be
00:27:13reinserted in the agenda. If within
00:27:1690 days, uh the minister remains without any
00:27:20decision, which should not happen, uh the
00:27:23process, the debate, alas, is again
00:27:27reinserted in the agenda for uh discussion of this
00:27:30preliminary matter. Here another point.
00:27:33We are talking so that the population understands well that we have
00:27:37a main request and a preliminary request by
00:27:41order, as they say, that is, before
00:27:44discussing the main request, uh, the
00:27:46ministers propose, some of them, that this preliminary matter
00:27:50be decided. And what is the main request? It is whether or not to
00:27:54authorize an investigation uh about
00:27:57uh Minister Alexandre de Moraes based
00:28:00on indications, because we don't have any proof yet,
00:28:04of the indications, however, that arise uh in the report
00:28:07of the federal police in the in the inquiry, in the
00:28:10investigation into the master case. Well, uh
00:28:14today when the session began and this was
00:28:17expected, the ministers who are, let's say,
00:28:21tending, I'm being very
00:28:23very careful here, tending
00:28:27more towards Alexandre de Moraes, unfortunately the Court is
00:28:30divided.
00:28:32They, uh I say here, I mention Zanin, uh
00:28:36uh Flávio Dino himself,
00:28:40Gilmar Mendes, uh these ministers
00:28:43added to Carmen Lúcia's vote, right? who voted
00:28:47for the consolidation of processes,
00:28:50proposed a preliminary question. Before we talk
00:28:54about the main issue, let's decide a preliminary question. And
00:28:57what is it? They understand that uh the
00:29:01authorization for about Minister Alexandre de
00:29:04Moraes must be decided in
00:29:07conjunction with a possible or perhaps
00:29:10probable authorization for investigation into
00:29:14Minister Mendonça uh from
00:29:17uh the reaction of Minister Alexandre de
00:29:21Moraes as soon as that material
00:29:24published by Mendonça became public. In
00:29:27other words, what we are seeing today is
00:29:31whether the Supreme Court will determine
00:29:34or not the consolidation of the two cases, of the
00:29:38two decisions to be taken in
00:29:41the same session. And
00:29:45then, uh the decision on
00:29:48whether or not to authorize an investigation against both is
00:29:52conditioned, it cannot be decided before
00:29:55this preliminary decision presented today and
00:29:59voted on today. We had the vote of... uh for
00:30:03uh the consolidation of Zanin, of
00:30:06Gilmar Mendes, uh Carmen Lúcia
00:30:10also. Uh now Flávio, Minister Flávio
00:30:14Dino should also vote for the
00:30:16consolidation. Fux uh voted for
00:30:20maintaining the separation, right? As should
00:30:23Faquim, who should follow uh this
00:30:26voted for separation.
00:30:30Therefore, we have to wait now.
00:30:33the return of the debate after the view requested by
00:30:36Minister uh Flávio Dino. Now we can
00:30:40comment in a little while that there is a political content
00:30:44that is guiding, that is directing this
00:30:48this debate today directed, in addition to the technical-legal
00:30:52issue. Professor, I want to address that point in a moment,
00:30:55but first, so we don't change the subject, I want to bring to those who are watching us.