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00:00:00The people of Sudan,
00:00:01Professor Osman Merghani, for Egypt, through Come to prayer.
00:00:07in the halls of this have interests from its strategic position, continued to call for the unity of Sudan, and Egypt continued to work for the unity and legitimacy
00:00:11Come to prayer. of Egypt in of Sudanese institutions, and did not open any field of dealing
00:00:15or cooperation or communication with
00:00:17And, I mean, this is a day that cannot the rapid support militia in any
00:00:22the last witness, and with me were other major bulwark for way, shape or form. This was of course
00:00:23colleagues working at the declared position.
00:00:24Come to Perhaps there are positions that are not suitable for publication in
00:00:27the context of supporting the Sudanese state.
00:00:31Also, at the strategic level, Egypt
00:00:34opened its borders to Sudanese people, both
00:00:38by land and air,
00:00:43on interests, not in the millions.
00:00:44on friendships. That's why I This has not happened and does not happen from any other country.
00:00:47Even what we call smuggling, by the way, and I traveled by that land route
00:00:51many times. Even what we call smuggling is actually an entry
00:00:54into Egypt under
00:00:562020, six years ago,
00:00:56of the world believed at one the eyes of or the army and its supporting the Egyptian authorities. If they
00:01:00had achieved a complete victory in wanted to block and prevent Sudanese people, they would have done so. For example, it's not very difficult.
00:01:04But they opened
00:01:05catastrophe was about to befall all their borders to Sudanese people in
00:01:08these large numbers. Sudanese people in Egypt did not go to
00:01:11camps or remote areas. Sudanese people went to
00:01:15Welcome, brother Talal. It's not really what Cairo, they went to the capital very directly and are present
00:01:18in different neighborhoods of the Egyptian capital,
00:01:22and in neighborhoods that even have a Sudanese character. When you
00:01:26went to a city like Faisal,
00:01:28people. It will take place in for example, the number of Sudanese people
00:01:30in some neighborhoods and buildings
00:01:34exceeds the number of Egyptians. This is clear
00:01:38and I am one and obvious. The general treatment is very good. There are some anomalies
00:01:42here and there, and I think this happens under these circumstances. The difference
00:01:46in nationalities, cultures, customs, and traditions, and the clash of interests
00:01:49sometimes creates a kind of
00:01:53tension, a kind of clashes, but it does not
00:01:56affect the strategic positions now. Let's return.
00:02:00I was close Sudanese people are also returning in large quantities from
00:02:04for example, the relationship between religion and the state in the Arab Republic of Egypt, and we see
00:02:07the extent to which our brothers in Egypt are affected
00:02:10by this return. So I want to say that the Egyptian position
00:02:13is also that Egypt in the political aspect has worked to
00:02:17open forums in Sharm El Sheikh more than once
00:02:21to try to find a solution to the Sudanese issue, even before
00:02:24the war. I mean, since the repercussions of the change in
00:02:272019. So Egypt is present in the Sudanese
00:02:31file positively and very significantly. It is true that some
00:02:34Sudanese people had higher expectations than this. They assumed they would make
00:02:38comparisons. They thought that their brothers in Egypt should come
00:02:42and fight with them, as they did in October in the seventies, and as
00:02:46they fought in Cairo to protect Cairo in the sixties.
00:02:50But policies
00:02:52have changed. The movement of the Egyptian forces is now
00:02:55restricted by the laws
00:02:57with four of the Egyptian parliament. The Egyptian forces do not fight outside
00:03:00Egypt. But that does not prevent it from
00:03:03perhaps, perhaps, I say, a military
00:03:06I was indeed among file that we get involved in and political analysts in statements about. We don't
00:03:09know the extent to which they can be accurate. But I feel
00:03:12that our brothers in Egypt at all levels are standing by Sudan.
00:03:16As for the second part of the news, the American
00:03:20role, I think this American
00:03:22doesn't meet with the role is a role
00:03:25Bolis has many that has many question marks about it. Frankly, the United
00:03:28States of America and various institutions, media
00:03:31institutions, brought up the fabrication of the Sudanese
00:03:35army using chemical weapons.
00:03:37forces affiliated with The speaker is now talking about the Sudanese army using
00:03:40chemical weapons without any
00:03:42will please the largest number of evidence or proof. And you know that the United States destroyed
00:03:45all of Iraq upside
00:03:48and the evil of what ascends to down because of the issue harms us from of chemical weapons, and now it is destroying
00:03:51Iran. You know that this is a fabrication that has no basis
00:03:54in reality. The United
00:03:57States, and at the level
00:04:00of the American President's advisor, Mr. Bolis, I think he is now
00:04:03pursuing a policy that is closer to being dual. They talk
00:04:06about de-escalation, they talk about a truce
00:04:09at times when they ignore the militia's
00:04:12transgressions very clearly. They
00:04:16know the reports, the reports of large American
00:04:19universities and institutions like Harvard that talk about very serious transgressions
00:04:23that have taken place, especially in Al-Fashir. They ignore them and talk
00:04:28their rights or to demand justice from about a truce, and they talk about de-escalation, and they talk about humanitarian corridors,
00:04:31and they talk about chemical weapons for the Sudanese
00:04:34army. The American position is actually a position
00:04:38with a big question mark. So, I mean, can Egypt, with this
00:04:41contact, alleviate, as you said earlier,
00:04:44can it alleviate these
00:04:47conspiracies or the intensity of the conspiracies that are being plotted
00:04:50against Sudan? Necessarily, of course.
00:04:54Sudan has been targeted and is being
00:04:57targeted by countries at the level of Sudan's
00:05:00neighbors, yes, Ethiopia and Chad and others,
00:05:03and at the regional level, a country like the United
00:05:06Arab Emirates has tremendous capabilities and has
00:05:11in this great very strong relations with Egypt. These are also countries that
00:05:16the loose situation in Sudan, such as the United States of America, Britain, and others. I
00:05:20think that if it weren't for the presence
00:05:23this file, the situation in Sudan could have been much worse than this.
00:05:26So Egypt has played a major role and has been a
00:05:31Sudan in different stages of this crisis, and it still
00:05:35is. Yes, there are those who say that the victories
00:05:39of the armed forces are the biggest incentive for security,
00:05:43stability, and peace, in a way that preserves
00:05:46and serves the interests of the Sudanese people. How
00:05:49do you comment on this statement? And look, as I mentioned to you, these international
00:05:53relations are based
00:05:56believe that the big confusion
00:06:00that occurred in this file happened
00:06:03because some neighboring countries, regional
00:06:06countries, and countries
00:06:09point that this militia
00:06:12Sudan and was on the verge of taking control of the Sudanese state.
00:06:16So they quickly tried to build relations with the militia,
00:06:19considering it the alternative or upcoming authority.
00:06:23Yes, this hypothesis is based on them wanting
00:06:27to build relations with it based on interests, whether in the field of mining or
00:06:30other fields. So here, the international
00:06:34and regional position, and the position of some very strange neighboring countries,
00:06:38is because it is not based on principles or on
00:06:43friendships. Now the tide has turned,
00:06:47let me answer your question directly. The tide has now
00:06:49turned in favor of the Sudanese Armed Forces and the supporting
00:06:53forces. Yes, I believe that after this position,
00:06:56the international and regional position will immediately begin
00:07:00to change, even gradually. This is truly the only
00:07:03way to achieve the interests of the Sudanese people. The world only respects the strong.
00:07:07If we want to achieve our interests, restore
00:07:10our state, and achieve
00:07:12a just peace for Sudan, our forces must continue their advance
00:07:16from Kordofan to the Um Dafuq area in
00:07:20West Darfur. This peace must be imposed by force. Even if people
00:07:24sit down with this militia at the negotiating table,
00:07:27we must negotiate from a position of strength, and we must make our highest demand
00:07:31in negotiations the dismantling of this militia. This is the only
00:07:35thing that will achieve our interests as Sudanese citizens, and the only thing that
00:07:38will make the world respect us. But I hope people don't forget.
00:07:42Any illusions of principles
00:07:45and friendships for humanitarian
00:07:49files. The world only respects the strong. After years
00:07:52of war, the United States signed an agreement with the United
00:07:56States from inside the American White House. Ahmad al-Sharaa,
00:07:59whom they described as a terrorist and had a $10
00:08:02million bounty on his head for anyone who caught him
00:08:06or led the United States to him, imposed himself in
00:08:09Syria by force through his leadership of the Syrian
00:08:14army, and now he is a friend of the United
00:08:17States of America. So, my dear sister, the world does not respect
00:08:21anyone but the strong. Does Counselor
00:08:25Bolis's positions need proof or evidence and proof that he is not
00:08:28seeking the interests of the citizen,
00:08:31and that he is biased towards the parties
00:08:35supporting the militia? Of course,
00:08:38question marks about his history and his
00:08:40present, because he
00:08:43represents, at the present time, the policy of the United
00:08:46States, or the policy of the American administration,
00:08:49which is greatly intertwined
00:08:52with the interests of the United Arab
00:08:55Emirates. I mean, his last statement probably confirms that
00:08:59there is a need for a truce
00:09:02lasting 90 days in Sudan. So what
00:09:06will people achieve from a truce? We think
00:09:09that the demand of the Sudanese government, or the legitimate
00:09:12authority in Sudan, which is calling for
00:09:16lasting peace, is what can achieve peace. I mean, people tell them that we don't
00:09:19need truces, we need arrangements
00:09:23that achieve lasting peace. These arrangements assume that the militia's
00:09:26forces will be gathered in specific areas, heavy weapons
00:09:30will be disarmed, and weapons appropriate for militias will be seized. After that,
00:09:34security arrangements will be entered into. And this, of course, does not
00:09:37negate people's right to demand
00:09:40the militia. The position of the Sudanese government here is a very authentic
00:09:44and very clear position. But Mas'ad Bolis tried to play both sides, and we all
00:09:48believe that it is a failed policy and will fail, God willing, through
00:09:52our great openness, especially at this time, the military
00:09:55openness. Yes, we move on to the fifth file. Member
00:09:59of the Sudanese Dialogue Committee, Osman Mirghani, three
00:10:02paths for the Sudanese dialogue and continuous
00:10:05contacts with community forces, and our movements
00:10:08receive international and regional support.
00:10:12Has the committee for preparing the Sudanese-Sudanese
00:10:15dialogue succeeded in promoting its expected role
00:10:18and the nature of
00:10:19its initiative?
00:10:22I salute my colleague,
00:10:26his great effort in the dialogue preparation
00:10:30committee, but it is still too early to judge this
00:10:33committee. I believe that there is a great
00:10:36deal of confusion among Sudanese people, and that is why the dialogue
00:10:40preparation committee is important, and why Professor Osman Merghani's
00:10:43pen is important. Specifically, there is great confusion among a large
00:10:47segment of Sudanese people between dialogue
00:10:50and negotiation. Some people confuse
00:10:53these two files. Some people believe that
00:10:57this dialogue should not take place
00:10:59in isolation from others, and they mean the militia
00:11:03and its supporters. I believe that this is a separate forum.
00:11:06I mean, if there is a political dialogue
00:11:10for security arrangements with the militia, that is called negotiation.
00:11:13That is a negotiation that takes place between
00:11:16the military leadership,
00:11:20forces, or the legitimate authority in Sudan and the leadership
00:11:23of this militia. And we have already sat in Jeddah,
00:11:27both openly and secretly, in other locations. This is called
00:11:30negotiation. And negotiation takes place. I mean,
00:11:34people say, "Oh, you want to negotiate and leave Darfur?"
00:11:36This is the confusion that is happening. Darfur
00:11:40is being promoted as being in Sudan, and it is part of
00:11:43the Sudanese center, and with its leaders and its citizens, it is part of
00:11:47the Sudanese-Sudanese dialogue, and this is a separate issue. This dialogue will not take place in Darfur.
00:11:51The dialogue is for all Sudanese Khartoum. What is needed
00:11:55with the militia is negotiation, and that is a completely separate file and has nothing to do with the dialogue.
00:11:59I mean, with the dialogue and has nothing to do with the dialogue. This dialogue,
00:12:03of those who were honored in the past few days to sit with the President
00:12:06of the Sovereign Council after we
00:12:09discussed in the media forum and he gave a very comprehensive explanation.
00:12:13I think this explanation needs to be publicized and needs the committee of Professor Osman
00:12:16Merghani. People should separate the Sudanese-Sudanese dialogue.
00:12:20This is supposed to discuss the issues
00:12:23of Sudan and Sudanese people after the war. Issues like
00:12:29Sudan, whether the state will be secular or a religious
00:12:32state. What will be the shape of this state?
00:12:35Will it be states or regions? When will the elections
00:12:38take place? These electoral rounds,
00:12:41these are issues of the Sudanese dialogue that have no direct relationship with the ongoing
00:12:45war, except through the circumstances of time
00:12:48and place and climate, and they have no direct relationship
00:12:51also with the current authority, except for
00:12:55the sake of guarantee. Yes, well, I mean, in less than a minute, the acceptance that
00:12:59the political and community forces met this committee
00:13:03with has become one of the encouraging factors to support
00:13:07this committee and to make it succeed. I mean, in less than a minute, in less
00:13:11than a minute, I still don't feel that there is great acceptance, and there is a kind
00:13:14of ambiguity, and that is what makes the degree of challenge
00:13:18required from Professor Osman Merghani and his team very great. I mean, even now,
00:13:21a lot is required of him. Yes, well, we
00:13:25have reached with this fifth axis
00:13:28to a concluding dialogue of the events axis for this day.
00:13:31Thank you very much to the journalist and political analyst, Professor
00:13:35Bakri El Madani. Thank you and greetings through you
00:13:38to our colleagues. Thank you very much, dear
00:13:41viewers. Thus, our episode for today from the axis of events
00:13:45is complete. Greetings from the working team. Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:13:48اللقاء.
00:23:11Dear viewers, peace and mercy of God be upon you. May God make your times
00:23:15good. Each party has
00:23:18a lot to say about the mistakes
00:23:22of others, but a war with such
00:23:25a heavy price imposes a central
00:23:28question that everyone must answer: Where
00:23:32did we go wrong? And can
00:23:34we build a different future without
00:23:38reviewing the path that led us to where we are
00:23:42now? These questions and others I will present tonight
00:23:47prominent journalists
00:23:52Sudan, media professionals.
00:23:55I welcome my guests to this episode,
00:23:58Professor, journalist,
00:24:01and political analyst, former Minister of Information, Professor
00:24:05Hassan Ismail. Welcome, Professor Hassan. Welcome, Professor. Welcome to you and welcome
00:24:08to the distinguished guests and our teachers. We are happy to see you today
00:24:12and your presence at the Political Forum platform after a long absence. Welcome.
00:24:16Welcome. The welcome also extends to our teacher, Professor
00:24:21Mustafa. Welcome, and peace and mercy of God be upon you. And welcome to the distinguished
00:24:25viewers and welcome to our colleagues in this
00:24:28episode, which we hope
00:24:32those who are watching it, God willing. May it please everyone.
00:24:35Your tears were certainly precious when you entered the TV
00:24:39building and witnessed the destruction that befell the radio. Oh, by God,
00:24:42it was a sad thing,
00:24:45and you remember I told you that these people did not come to rule, they came to destroy the state.
00:24:54We also welcome Professor Bukhari Bashir. Welcome, Professor
00:24:58Bukhari. Welcome, Professor Talal Al-Muddassir,
00:25:02an old friend and colleague, and welcome
00:25:05to the distinguished guests who are participating with me in this
00:25:08episode. And I am truly happy,
00:25:12I mean, to return once again to Khartoum and appear
00:25:16on national television. I think that this is
00:25:20I mean, one of the important features that
00:25:23we treasure in our memory, God willing. An audience that you used to see on Al-Zarqa
00:25:26channel, and today you appear on Sudan TV. Well, welcome
00:25:30to the audience of Sudan TV, I mean, the national TV.
00:25:33And welcome
00:25:36to others on other channels, and they all, I mean, draw from the same
00:25:39lamp, as they say. Welcome to you. A welcome also extends
00:25:43to Dr. Hassan Muhammad Saleh, the well-known journalist.
00:25:46Welcome, Doctor. Welcome, welcome.
00:25:50I am extremely happy to be at
00:25:53Sudan TV after an absence,
00:25:55and
00:25:58the last night I spent
00:26:01institution was the night
00:26:05of April 15,
00:26:072023. I was television
00:26:11and we left, and in the morning, the war had
00:26:15started.
00:26:19be forgotten. I was the last witness. Yes, I was
00:26:26the television. So we are happy,
00:26:29the second happiness, to be with our distinguished colleagues. I mean,
00:26:33brother Hassan, brother
00:26:36Mustafa, brother Bukhari, Professor
00:26:39Talal. Happiness, I mean, boundless
00:26:42happiness. Thank you very much. Welcome, Doctor. Well,
00:26:46Professor Hassan Ismail,
00:26:49the man who left Sudan in
00:26:512026, meaning six years ago,
00:26:55and when he was asked in 20
00:26:58and when people asked him at the time why
00:27:05he felt a looming
00:27:08Sudan, what do you think
00:27:11Hassan Ismail saw that day that others
00:27:14الاخرون
00:27:18we saw, but what we knew.
00:27:21I mean, we were part of
00:27:25this party club for a long time,
00:27:28and part of its institutions, and we know people best,
00:27:31and we know people best by their words, their actions, and their claims.
00:27:35Honestly,
00:27:38in 2013 or 2014,
00:27:42when the disagreement began
00:27:44between us and the party opposition,
00:27:47this disagreement did not come out of nowhere.
00:27:51I mean, it resulted from experiences and observations. At that
00:27:54time, there were meetings of the consensus forces
00:27:57that organized the 2013 demonstrations, and
00:28:02to this issue and close to the committees for these movements.
00:28:06But I also saw the tendencies
00:28:09of people within the consensus forces, so I told them, if this government
00:28:13falls and you write about it in the newspaper,
00:28:17and you enter the Republican Palace, you will not be able to maintain the electricity
00:28:20of the Republican Palace for a single day. This was
00:28:23in 2013. This was in 2013, and I wrote it, I mean,
00:28:25or 2014. And this is not because of what we saw, but because
00:28:29the opposition did not
00:28:33prepare even half a word
00:28:36regarding the governance of Sudan and the administration of Sudan. I mean, all its energy
00:28:40was for opposition. I mean, it did
00:28:44not leave any room for its mind to
00:28:46develop plans or visions for governance.
00:28:50How did they react to your words at the time? No, that's the second disaster.
00:28:53That any words you say, your opponent
00:28:57doesn't deal with them as a matter of give
00:29:00and take. They take it as
00:29:03belittling it. That's why our dialogue
00:29:07is always between adversaries. It's always
00:29:10a dialogue of the deaf. I don't care what you're saying,
00:29:13and you don't care what I'm saying.
00:29:16That's the disaster, that there are no points of agreement. I'm an opponent,
00:29:20that's it. I'm an opponent. That's a line that
00:29:24side I'm rivaling since Sudan's independence until now. Yes.
00:29:28Yes. And when they meet, for example, let me tell you one of
00:29:32the things that made me form this idea in my mind. The consensus
00:29:35forces included
00:29:39modern currents,
00:29:42which are the leftists, Ba'athists, and so on, as is customary
00:29:45in classification. So they used to invite people to meetings to
00:29:49coordinate and collect reports
00:29:52on demonstrations. When the demonstrations intensified,
00:29:56a group of them would go to the meeting place and
00:29:59not find the meeting. They discovered
00:30:02that the meeting place had been changed because
00:30:05the communists, Ba'athists, and the Sudanese
00:30:09Congress Party were leading the meeting. The leadership changed. Our people, the Umma
00:30:13Party and the Unionist Party, would go and not find the meeting. So when
00:30:16they blamed each other, one of the leaders,
00:30:19may God have mercy on him, said to them, "Honestly,
00:30:23the financier of this movement stipulated
00:30:27that no Islamic force of an Islamic nature
00:30:30should continue with us to the stage after the fall of the Salvation."
00:30:33This is where the exclusion began. Yes, it actually started. This story
00:30:36of the 1969 coup failed to exclude, and
00:30:39in 1958, the handover failed to exclude.
00:30:42I mean, this story of the party club
00:30:45and the political flag being handed down from generation to generation. No, there is no handover.
00:30:49Sadiq al-Mahdi once held a forum
00:30:51called the generational crisis. This was in 2000,
00:30:55as soon as he returned, I mean, 2002. It was called the generational crisis
00:30:59in the Umma Party.