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00:00:01Venezuela has a government led by Dels Rodríguez, and the
00:00:04scenario began to look somewhat different, at least in the
00:00:08political economic spheres, especially
00:00:11with the United States, whose relationship took a 180-degree turn in
00:00:14diplomatic and commercial matters. But according to the Independent International
00:00:18Fact-Finding Mission of the United
00:00:23receive Adélcy Rodríguez now Nations, the structures responsible for repression
00:00:25remain intact. This is essentially the message of the
00:00:29new report, presented this Wednesday. There are improvements, but they are limited
00:00:33in human rights. There have been releases from prison, an amnesty
00:00:36law, a slightly greater margin for protests, public meetings
00:00:40and civil society participation, and the mission recognizes a significant
00:00:43decrease in long-term detentions and enforced
00:00:47disappearances, but this is where the list of reduced
00:00:50abuses ends. According to the mission, the state
00:00:53institutions responsible for repression, for serious
00:00:57human rights violations, and for crimes against humanity, remain
00:01:00intact. Here
00:01:03different governments, not only is the crux of the matter: reducing repression is not the
00:01:06same as dismantling the apparatus that made it possible. After
00:01:11society, what January 3rd, the non-governmental organization Foro Penal reports
00:01:141,073 releases and pardons up to September
00:01:1714th. However, it still registers
00:01:20344 people deprived of liberty.
00:01:24The mission itself estimates that the figure
00:01:27give sustainability to everything could even reach 500. The
00:01:29report also speaks of complaints of torture, ill-treatment,
00:01:33and mentioned cases reported in the Maximum Security Penitentiary
00:01:36El Rodeo 1 and in Fort
00:01:39Huaikipuro, noting that after January 3rd, it
00:01:43identified a pattern of arbitrary short-term arrests
00:01:46aimed at intimidating opposition activists, journalists,
00:01:50and other members of civil society. It's an important
00:01:54difference: the number of people incarcerated for long
00:01:57periods can decrease, and at the same time, a structure capable of
00:02:01yes, it started intimidating can be maintained. In March, the mission had already warned that the
00:02:04repressive structures were mutating, they said, to stay in
00:02:08power. The mission
00:02:12the data, ready for whatever also warns about the lack of official information. There is not enough clarity about who was
00:02:15released, where some of the detained people are, or what their
00:02:19legal situation is. And that also says something about the
00:02:22unconstitutionality. When there isn't even sufficiently clear public
00:02:25information to know who is detained and under what conditions, it is
00:02:29almost impossible to verify the veracity of official data. The
00:02:33other element is that of the collectives. The mission's investigation
00:02:36describes them as a central component of the repressive apparatus
00:02:39and a broader system of social control, pointing to
00:02:43different degrees of coordination or convergence with state
00:02:46authorities and security
00:02:48important issue and what forces. The report lists three conditions that
00:02:52guarantee true change in the
00:02:55focus, system. Repressive structures must be dismantled. It is
00:02:57necessary to guarantee judicial independence, and it is
00:03:00imperative to properly sanction human rights
00:03:04violators. While this happens, for the mission, and
00:03:07I quote, any opening will remain fragile and
00:03:10reversible.
00:03:13The government of the acting president of Venezuela responded to the UN mission's report
00:03:16this very Friday. Its delegation to the United Nations in
00:03:19Geneva defended what they call improvements in the human
00:03:23rights situation in the country, such as the amnesty law or the release of
00:03:27up to 8,743 detainees, and requested that the
00:03:31allowed to record UN mission, created in 2019, not
00:03:34us. Short break and we'll be back with extend its mandate. That is to say, a change of government can be a
00:03:38political event, but
00:03:39notes of everything that is said, everything that dismantling a repressive apparatus is a radical
00:03:42unconstitutional transformation, and according to this report, that second
00:03:46part is still pending.
00:03:49But is this possible with the government of Delsi Rodríguez? We discuss
00:03:52it with my next
00:03:53guest.
00:04:00I welcome María Eloisa Quintero, a member of the Independent International Fact-Finding
00:04:03Mission on Venezuela, who joins us from Geneva.
00:04:07We especially thank her for staying up so late
00:04:10to be with us, because it's past 3 in the morning there.
00:04:14Thank you, Marisa, for being with us. The first thing
00:04:17I want to try to make clear is
00:04:21this difference between the change of government, between having
00:04:25released several political prisoners, and the structure that
00:04:28is still in force. That is, if at any
00:04:31point the current government of Venezuela wanted to return to the previous situation,
00:04:35it has all the means to do so again.
00:04:39Hello, Iván, good afternoon. Yes, what worries
00:04:42the mission, and you have described it very well, is
00:04:46that while we see changes that are very
00:04:49positive, eh, all the
00:04:51mechanisms, the modus operandi,
00:04:55the regulations, that is, all the tools
00:04:59that support
00:05:02the acts and violations that we have been
00:05:06the declarations of reporting are in force. Some authorities
00:05:09have changed, some
00:05:13responsible for certain areas have been moved or transferred to
00:05:16other areas, but that does not mean that the
00:05:19practices have ceased. So we therefore called
00:05:23for deeper change. Now, is a deeper change possible
00:05:27with the same people? Because the person who is acting president until January
00:05:313rd was vice president and even had charge of Sebin, which is one of
00:05:34the main organizations that you question, right? Yes,
00:05:37we have
00:05:41confidence that deep changes will begin to be made. They have
00:05:45put a person in charge, we are not
00:05:49political bodies to make that kind of decision, but
00:05:52we are here to show facts, which is why it's called a fact-finding
00:05:56mission. The idea is
00:05:58to bring investigation results,
00:06:02data, figures, patterns,
00:06:04modus operandi,
00:06:07perpetrators, key actors that allow and have
00:06:10allowed repression, with the hope that the authorities of the
00:06:15the international community, will also make the necessary
00:06:19decisions so that this does not perpetuate and so
00:06:22that it does not repeat itself in the
00:06:24future.
00:06:27When we talk about these human rights violations, about repression,
00:06:30specifically what are we talking about? What were you able to document?
00:06:33We were able to document, as we have been
00:06:36doing during these previous years, that the
00:06:39main human rights violations continued.
00:06:42Our report covers from September
00:06:45of last year to August of this year. We have been
00:06:49registering in recent times, we have direct contact with
00:06:52victims, with relatives, with
00:06:55witnesses, with those called insiders, that is, people who
00:06:59having belonged to the
00:07:01structure dare to converse with ex
00:07:05with members of the collectives, as you pointed out, and
00:07:08these people describe from their position
00:07:11and provide evidence, elements and so on, and we have many
00:07:15registered cases, for example, on arbitrary
00:07:18short-term detentions, as I said, there are disappearances, there are
00:07:21deaths in custody,
00:07:25eh, we also see cases of
00:07:28torture, which is what hurts the most,
00:07:30because atrocity in this
00:07:34aspect, let's say, never ceases to surprise. We have
00:07:37unfortunately found new forms of torture. We always knew
00:07:41of some cases and... we had been reporting them, but now on this
00:07:44occasion we were able to register more
00:07:48and more declarations of having been
00:07:51victims of torture. We accredited them, and although this
00:07:54number increased because people have more
00:07:58security or because they have been released and were able to come to us to
00:08:01tell their suffering,
00:08:05the truth is that in the
00:08:07period we are analyzing, although we received
00:08:1153 accredited complaints, 37
00:08:15are from the reporting period, the others
00:08:18are from previous periods. So we are concerned about
00:08:22all of this, which is the manifestation
00:08:26of a regime, a situation
00:08:29of great tension, where in the
00:08:32current context that struggle for power is adapting,
00:08:35but the practices, because there is a movement, of course, because there is a change
00:08:39of interim government, there is
00:08:42a call to economic forces for
00:08:45investments, it is a time of great
00:08:48opportunity, but these times of opportunity also readjust
00:08:52the tensions of legitimate and illegitimate powers, and in
00:08:56that readjustment what we have seen is that for now
00:09:00the constant is one, the forms and modalities of continuing with human
00:09:03rights violations. Now,
00:09:06in addition to these releases and so on, there is a political dialogue currently
00:09:10led by the president of the
00:09:12national assembly, the brother of the acting president, and press
00:09:16freedom and other issues are part of that,
00:09:20part of that dialogue. I mean, if that dialogue prospers, these situations
00:09:23should end, or in reality, what ends up
00:09:26happening is this situation that you describe, that
00:09:29well, there are releases and so on, but the apparatus is still
00:09:32in place. We, as a
00:09:36mission, understand that all dialogue
00:09:39is positive, no,
00:09:42it must be mentioned that it is a dialogue between
00:09:45the government and a sector of civil society, it is not an
00:09:49integrated composition,
00:09:52but also it is
00:09:55very important to emphasize that in the
00:09:59dialogue there are issues that have not been put on the table,
00:10:03for example, specifically the issue of human rights
00:10:06violations, that is why we call
00:10:10and urge that within this dialogue process, which
00:10:12must always be positive, it be pluralized, but at the
00:10:16same time, and by pluralized I mean, the victims must be there, the
00:10:20figures must be there, the patterns must be there, and respect
00:10:23for human rights must be a central
00:10:27issue, not the neutralization of all the
00:10:31practices that lead to this situation, and above all, the
00:10:34victims. No, that's right.
00:10:37María Luisa, we're going to take a break now and then we'll continue discussing this
00:10:40topic. We're going to delve a little deeper into the interim government of Venezuela's response
00:10:44and what can be done from here on. We'll take a break and when
00:10:47we return here on Conclusiones, I'll continue talking with María Luisa Quintero, a member of the
00:10:51Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on Venezuela.
00:14:25We continue here in Conclusiones, dialoguing with María Loisa Quintero. She is a member of the Independent International
00:14:28Fact-Finding Mission on Venezuela, and we continue
00:14:32talking about this report that they have produced. María
00:14:35Luisa, I wanted to ask you about the response that the interim government of
00:14:39Venezuela has given to this work. They have put forward
00:14:43that they are doing things and
00:14:46they have also asked that the mission not be extended. How do you take
00:14:50their response?
00:14:53The mission has been working since 2019. I am a
00:14:56member, like the other two, of
00:14:59this period, but it is a response that we have received since
00:15:02then, so it doesn't surprise
00:15:06us. It is only our
00:15:09job to emphasize that we are independent, that the elements
00:15:13are all accredited. You can see all the mission's reports during
00:15:17these years and particularly in this period. It is one report
00:15:21and two investigation documents that are available on the website and that
00:15:24contain all the evidence,
00:15:27the citations,
00:15:31the victims, etc. That is, what we provide
00:15:34are facts based on direct
00:15:37sources. And at the same time, another important thing
00:15:40is that we point out all the positive
00:15:44aspects, that is, all those enumerations
00:15:47of changes that have been occurring, like the
00:15:50amnesty law. We also point out to what extent they have
00:15:53reached and if they have been efficient and are
00:15:56transparent and what remains to be done. I also call
00:16:00to look at all the reflections
00:16:03but especially the very specific recommendations.
00:16:07Concrete ones to be able to take steps forward. That is to
00:16:10say, we focus on contributing
00:16:14for those who want to make decisions and have the political will
00:16:17to review these reports and find them
00:16:20useful. From this response given by this
00:16:24administration, do you believe that will
00:16:26exists? Not so much, and we will wait for the
00:16:30actions. There have been no changes today. Coincidentally,
00:16:34precisely at this moment
00:16:37that we are saying all these things, they gave permission for the first time in a
00:16:41very long time to
00:16:44the Red Cross to enter the prisons. So I
00:16:47think things are always slowly moving. What we need
00:16:51to do is emphasize how volatile
00:16:55some of the changes are and highlight what
00:16:59those structural modifications are that will
00:17:04we are all trying to improve.
00:17:09Part of the government's response has been to ask that you
00:17:13not extend your mission in Venezuela. You are not there to
00:17:16document this. Can anyone tell
00:17:18this?
00:17:21Civil society has a lot of history,
00:17:24that is, Venezuela has a strong and brave
00:17:27civil society, but they themselves call
00:17:30for support for the mandate of our mission. We believe
00:17:34it is still necessary and we hope for the renewal of
00:17:38the mandate that will be discussed these days
00:17:42here in Geneva, and we hope that it materializes.
00:17:45The current mandate has ended, has expired, when does it expire, let's say, how are the
00:17:48dates, sorry. It expires in September and
00:17:52it is normally renewed for 2 years, it was renewed for
00:17:55one year once, so we have the
00:17:58support of a large part of the international community that
00:18:02always waits to receive the reports, to see
00:18:05the results of them and to evaluate if it is
00:18:08necessary to continue in this
00:18:12role. We consider it vital, no, it is
00:18:16vital for the reasons you highlighted and many others. We must
00:18:19provide objective, independent support, which is our role,
00:18:23objective and independent, on very technical issues,
00:18:26yes, but always keeping society in
00:18:32yes, the victims, because what we do is investigate to
00:18:35ensure that victims have justice,
00:18:39and that conditions can be given
00:18:42to hold those who are accused
00:18:46accountable. Now, you have investigated,
00:18:49documented, produced the report, and the data
00:18:52is there. Now, who can do something with all of this? Who
00:18:56should and who can, I mean, if not the current
00:19:00government of Venezuela, can anyone else do something, can they force
00:19:04these changes that you point out to begin to happen?
00:19:08Yes, we and currently have,
00:19:11let's say, direct
00:19:14contact, for example, with the International Criminal Court
00:19:18because there has always been a cooperative relationship, and everything that
00:19:22one works on is taken into account. Also with the
00:19:25Inter-American Court, we have had the opportunity to meet with
00:19:29its authorities, and this serves as support for the cases that are
00:19:33presented one by one and need to be resolved. For example, the Inter-American Court
00:19:36currently has around 19 cases, if I remember
00:19:40correctly, that are
00:19:43awaiting sentencing. So the mapping of the
00:19:47reality, beyond the data that they are
00:19:50evaluating case by case, is also
00:19:54useful. On the other hand, civil
00:19:57society, the international community, and the
00:20:00national government itself, in each of its institutions, such as the
00:20:03prosecutor's office and so on, have this available. But if the
00:20:07local situation and justice in the nation,
00:20:11Venezuela, is delayed or
00:20:14still cannot be deepened, there is always
00:20:17an opportunity for universal justice. Yes, universal
00:20:21jurisdiction. At this moment, what does universal
00:20:24jurisdiction mean? That crimes against humanity can be, let's say,
00:20:27investigated and prosecuted in any other
00:20:31jurisdiction, because they are universal. At this moment in
00:20:34Argentina there is a very important case
00:20:38that is for an event that occurred in Venezuela
00:20:41and an extradition was requested for a person
00:20:44who is and was detained in Spain. This
00:20:47is extradition to Argentina.
00:20:50and it is by exercise of universal jurisdiction, so there are many
00:20:53ways to use this, which is
00:20:56facts, fact-finding, no.
00:20:59Finally, María, thinking a bit about this change that
00:21:03the United States has had regarding Venezuela, some economic sanctions have even been
00:21:07eliminated,
00:21:09eh, it has been confirmed that Donald Trump will
00:21:13in the framework of the United Nations General Assembly, also
00:21:17informally, but that they will meet,
00:21:20I mean, does all this complicate your work a bit, make it more
00:21:24difficult, do you end up being somewhat the dissidents of this
00:21:28new narrative that wants to be imposed on Venezuela, how does all
00:21:31that pressure from the United States operate on your
00:21:35work? Without a doubt, we can be
00:21:39an uncomfortable mission, but we can also be a useful
00:21:43mission, no. So it all depends on how the
00:21:46authorities want to see us. I think
00:21:50there's a point we haven't discussed, which is the
00:21:53report on the collectives, and I'd like to dedicate myself to this because it also has to do with
00:21:57the interests of other governments.
00:21:59The collectives are armed civilian groups that
00:22:03have been in Venezuela for a long time
00:22:07and they undergo a mutation,
00:22:10they go through different stages of historical development,
00:22:14but as armed civilian groups, they were
00:22:17born with an ideology of strong support
00:22:20for the Bolivarian revolution, but currently
00:22:23they have a very large shock
00:22:26force that at the same time we have been able
00:22:29to demonstrate with evidence, according
00:22:33to United Nations standards, that is, we have enough evidence to
00:22:37say that they have a direct link with the state
00:22:40and in that direct link with the state they exercise
00:22:43delegated functions
00:22:46of intelligence, security and everything you mentioned
00:22:50in the introduction, but also
00:22:53I invite you to read the report, but
00:22:57they also have a relationship with illicit
00:22:59activities, yes, and this is a very
00:23:03important point that we want to emphasize because
00:23:07illicit economies are always growing,
00:23:10but when there is a significant inflow
00:23:14of capital, such as the opening of a market
00:23:18or massive investment in certain sectors such as the mining sector, the
00:23:22oil sector, etc., that is a great advantage and opportunity for the
00:23:25country that attracts many
00:23:27actors, and not only legitimate actors, but
00:23:31also illicit actors, so the
00:23:34issue of collectives must be an
00:23:38we point out in our reports, because every legitimate
00:23:41actor must have information and legal
00:23:45security and not be at the disposal of
00:23:49illicit actors
00:23:51who instrumentalize civilian groups for their
00:23:55objectives. So I think we can be
00:23:58uncomfortable, as I was telling Iván just now, but we can also be very
00:24:01useful to project what the risk
00:24:05areas are that should be taken into account if we want to
00:24:08invest, if we want to move forward. María
00:24:12Luisa, we have run out of time, there is so much more to discuss. Thank you very much for being with
00:24:15us. That was María Quintero, a member of the International Independent Fact-Finding
00:24:19Mission on Venezuela. Thank you for being with
00:24:24the
00:24:24end.
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