Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:06The of anger is over an unresolved crisis in the country's
00:00:09livestock sector over restrictions on animal
00:00:13exports. Politicians should not longer be allowed
00:00:16to
00:00:17of pass, we want to block the traffic to make them come and
00:00:20of talk to us. In just two years, Romania has gone
00:00:24from being the European Union's largest exporter
00:00:27of live sheep to facing a complete. ban on exports to
00:00:31both
00:00:32of EU in member states and non EU markets. It comes
00:00:35after virus
00:00:39of of had been circulated undetected in Romania's livestock and
00:00:41in sufficient guarantees for disease control were not
00:00:44provided. That's when the culling
00:00:46began. Number one, stop killing
00:00:50of animals. They apply tests on six or seven sheep and then they kill
00:00:54thousands. Number two, reopen the
00:00:57a exports. This is very important. This government
00:00:59in should go.
00:01:07It's all taking its toll, while Romania is in discussions with the
00:01:11European commission to find a workable solution to allow
00:01:15exports to resume as soon as possible, but every day
00:01:19that goes by is another financial
00:01:21of hit to farmers. We have very high
00:01:25expenses for taking care of animals. Winter is coming,
00:01:29of they need corn. and hey, we can't sell anymore, how do we
00:01:33get earn money for living? we can no longer sell, it
00:01:37is very difficult, there is terrible drought, and we are feeding now the
00:01:40animals with the food that we should have been
00:01:43of saving over the winter. it's a disaster, there is severe
00:01:47drought
00:01:47a and we don't have
00:01:48enough food for
00:01:49the animals. things are going from bad to worse,
00:01:53this summer, the agricultural
00:01:55of sector faced huge losses from severe and prolonged drought
00:01:59due to record break.
00:02:00of heat waves, the band should be lifted by
00:02:032027, but farmers worry by then
00:02:06business will be driven to the
00:02:08of brink of bankrupcy. shout out to Edward Stashley,
00:02:11TRT
00:02:12World.
00:02:16that is it from myself and the news team here in London, our website of course has
00:02:20details on all of our top stories, that's
00:02:23TRTworld.com, or simply tune in to our later news
00:02:26programs, but do stay with us here on TRT World, round table's coming.
00:02:52the EU is pumping billions into maritime defense to counter
00:02:55increased threats to its security, but will it be
00:02:59enough? to protect Europe's
00:03:01cease.
00:03:07of
00:03:09of
00:03:17Hello and welcome to round table. I'm Enta
00:03:19of Brady. of Now
00:03:19in securing Europe's vast waters is becoming an urgent priority for the
00:03:23European Union and NATO as tensions with Russia
00:03:26escalate. The world's oceans hold complex system. of
00:03:30of of of critical infrastructure from subsea data cables to energy pipelines
00:03:34and global trade roots, all of which makes
00:03:37of them highly vulnerable to hybrid attacks and
00:03:40sabotage.
00:03:44non UK marine commando sees a Russian shadow fleet oil
00:03:47tanker. Another is intercepted in
00:03:51of Belgium. sailing under false flags, such vessels are suspected of
00:03:55smuggling oil and secretly mapping under-sea
00:03:58infrastructure. and incidents are becoming
00:04:01of more frequent. Last week, NATO allies foiled a
00:04:05Russian submarine plot
00:04:07of to damage undersea cables. The EU and
00:04:11NATO are warning of increased hybrid
00:04:14of attacks from
00:04:15of Russia. Europeans are faced with the hard
00:04:18of truth that this is the new normal.
00:04:22We must treat our everyday
00:04:24of infrastructure as frontline targets and protect them
00:04:28in accordingly. Allies are. united in their commitment
00:04:31each other, to our collective defense, and we are
00:04:35clear eyed
00:04:37of of of about how
00:04:38of important is that we work together, including with the European
00:04:42Union
00:04:42of to ensure we
00:04:44of have what we need to address the threats we
00:04:47face. 90% of Europe's trade, energy
00:04:51a and digital data moves through its seas, to protect them from
00:04:55above and below water, the EU has spent $130
00:04:59billion dollars. on maritime
00:05:01of defense over the past
00:05:03of decade. France, Germany, Italy and Spain lead the way, building new
00:05:07ships, submarines and autonomous underwater
00:05:10drones. More will be invested. as part of Brussels
00:05:13Readiness 2030, the EU's $200 billion dollar
00:05:17plan to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on the United
00:05:21States.
00:05:25The war in Ukraine has fundamentally changed European defense
00:05:29strategy, and while drones fill the skies
00:05:33there, an unseen battle is developing underwater which could
00:05:37damage, disrupt and even take down Europe's vital
00:05:41infrastructure. Well let's meet our guests from
00:05:44Dublin, we have the retired vice admiral Mark Melet. He's former
00:05:48chief of staff the Irish Defense Forces and former head the
00:05:52Navy. Mark is also author. From Brussels we have
00:05:55Jean-François Bellanger, he is assistant professor at the Institute for
00:05:59Military Operations, that's at the Royal Danish Defense College in
00:06:03Copenhagen, and I'm delighted to say here with me in the studio is Sean
00:06:07Bell. Sean is a military analyst and retired Air Vice
00:06:10Marshall. You're all very welcome. roundtable. Sean, you first of all,
00:06:14where are the threats coming from then? Yeah, I mean, one thing to
00:06:18remember is that we've got some maritime experts here, but the vast majority of global
00:06:22trade moves via the oceans and therefore you need to be able to protect
00:06:25that. The main threats are the critical national infrastructure. We've got lots of
00:06:29cables and pipelines underneath the ocean. We've also got GPS that can
00:06:33be jammed from the ocean as well, and we're also seeing certain the UK,
00:06:37lot of Russian uh oil tankers, the sanction fleets are making their way
00:06:41through, and therefore... you need to have capability against them
00:06:44critically, for the cold war, and I'm a cold war veteran, um,
00:06:48we used to be looking our main focus on his submarine warfare, we recognize that the
00:06:52subserfice threat was really dangerous, but over the years we've lost the
00:06:56ability to do that as credibly as we used to be able to, and threats like Russia
00:07:00and China, but most particularly, Russia has something like 50
00:07:03attack submarines available, we've got five, and most of
00:07:07those are actually not serviceable, they're all concurrently in being worked on, so
00:07:11we do have a... significant shortfall in our military capability in the maritime
00:07:15environment. Jean-François to you,
00:07:18I read an extraordinary statistic this week, 90% of
00:07:22Europe's trade goes via the sea. We are hugely,
00:07:26hugely dependent on our waters. Are we doing enough to protect
00:07:29them? I will, I will give the the wishy washy answer
00:07:33of yes and no. Um, I think the investment that we're seeing at the
00:07:37moment are a good uh,
00:07:40that there are good steps. what i'm a little bit unclear
00:07:44about and i think it's it's touching on on some points
00:07:47that that we're having here is that the choices that we're making at the
00:07:50moment to defend and and to be to be
00:07:53clear um my my day today is to look mostly at the
00:07:57north sea and the baltics um but when you look
00:08:01at these two environments the way the way the geography
00:08:05and and the sea works um frigates are
00:08:09not necessarily the most
00:08:13uh well prepared platform to defend for example
00:08:16the the Baltics uh, but I'm yet to see and you see it peace meal
00:08:20lefts and right, left and right, um, but I think especially in
00:08:24the EU, um, I'm yet to see
00:08:28very strong argument being made
00:08:31for uncrued vehicle maritime, especially,
00:08:35um, that could that could either be fielded in conjunction with
00:08:39frigate and submarine for example, uh, or also, as part the
00:08:43main strategy uh moving forward. Mark,
00:08:47to you, what's your assessment of how secure our European
00:08:51seas are? in some ways i think
00:08:55it's timeing the other two speakers points, it's like as
00:08:59if the ocean senook up us and we just
00:09:03realizing how much of our infrastructure is ocean
00:09:06based, our communications cables our energy
00:09:09interconnectors, our sea lines communications. in terms of
00:09:13trade, they're all converging on the oceans and I've often said that
00:09:17state security is inextricably linked with economic
00:09:20security, which is inextrictly linked with energy security, and
00:09:24our oceans are a key component of that, so I'm
00:09:28concerned that the architecture in terms of law the sea convention
00:09:32from 1982 and its subsequent amendments is no longer
00:09:36fit for purpose in the context of what we see today. Europe in
00:09:39particular is engaged a full-scale hybrid war. "and much of that
00:09:43is centered on the ocean, and just to tie into your last speaker
00:09:47there, we need a lot more situational awareness in the context
00:09:50the complexity of activities that are at sea,
00:09:53so we are quite vulnerable. Sean, to you,
00:09:57Europe is spending money on defense like never before, or not in living
00:10:01memory anyway, is enough of it going to
00:10:04see? I think a lot of it's down to priority, priorities,
00:10:08I've been off to Ukraine fairly regularly, and you go through Poland and they..."
00:10:12feel the heat the Russian invasion far more than
00:10:16we ever do over here through the lens of history, but also because obviously it's
00:10:20right on their border, and therefore they're investing heavily, but in land forces,
00:10:24in tanks and... there and they're less worried about the maritime
00:10:28environment, we traditionally in the UK have been a maritime nation, we've
00:10:32been a maritime power, so whilst lot of Europe tends to look east, we
00:10:35really need to be looking west and north, and therefore it feels
00:10:39like nationally and with some of our Nordic partners, France and
00:10:43Spain and Italy, all of which you have so key maritime
00:10:46borders, but actually that's where it's a different priority,
00:10:50and I do think you can't just sort of say NATO or Europe here, you have
00:10:54to have subset. of where our responsibility lies, because we're
00:10:58seeing in the UK when it's the antar and just off our shores where it's the Russian
00:11:02submarines and their test submarines lautering over under sea
00:11:05cables, whether it's aircraft coming over, we're feeling that heat a
00:11:09lot more than I would say Poland does
00:11:11for example. Jean Francis, is there an argument for greater
00:11:14integration then amongst European countries, European Union states in particular
00:11:18when it comes to maritime and coastal
00:11:21defense, well it it's a...
00:11:25interesting question to me because disintegration is already done and it's done through
00:11:29NATO uh and I understand that the European Union at the
00:11:32moment is interested to um
00:11:36look at alternative uh when it comes to um
00:11:40to it security especially maritime security thank you
00:11:43Mark you're in Ireland I'm Irish we are a small
00:11:47country we have a small navy we are neutral
00:11:50lot of observers see us as like achilles heel in west
00:11:55in Europe when it comes to sea defense, what do you say to that
00:11:58accusation? well, I spent most of my time in the
00:12:02Navy, I spent for 45 years and I I retired as
00:12:06chief of defense or chief of staff the defense forces, I've always made
00:12:10point, Ireland did not pay sufficient attention to the maritime,
00:12:14but that's that's changing now, we've launched our maritime security
00:12:17strategy, we're investing in air surveillance, we're investing in
00:12:21subsurface surveillance, but the bigger question is in...
00:12:25terms the security strategy, we need to move towards an integrated approach,
00:12:28and I think your last speaker raised point with regards to the NATO and
00:12:32the European Union, I see this even bigger than that, I think the
00:12:36reality is that we now need military and civilian integration,
00:12:40navy and coast guard, public and private, national and
00:12:43European, physical and cyber, so that we're actually stitching together all
00:12:47the domains, land in terms of surveillance raiders, land based
00:12:50raiders, maritime in terms of surface assets, subsurface
00:12:54assets, and space in terms of using synthetic aperture
00:12:58radar, evolving technologies, I worked with a company here in Ireland called
00:13:01Ubotica, using AI in space and of course cyber, stitching
00:13:05cyber into the architecture, so that ultimately that we
00:13:09have what we're increasingly talking about now, a whole of society
00:13:12approach to defense, security, control and enforcement in
00:13:16the maritime domain. Ireland has quite a large mountain
00:13:20to climb in terms of meeting its national responsibilities and
00:13:24equally its responsibilities to its neighbors and but it's in
00:13:28moving in the right direction, the challenge is you will something
00:13:31happen in the meantime, and we've seen the activity the
00:13:34antar, in fact it doesn't even have to be a yantar, it can be decommissioned
00:13:38troller that has the capacity to do a hybrid impact that cuts
00:13:42cable. the issue is are we a position now to have the
00:13:45situational awareness, the domain awareness to actually
00:13:49act in time to decide and to act and to prevent.
00:13:53thank you, sean, ship that keeps getting mentioned, the yantar, just spell out for us what
00:13:57it is and and what we think it might have been doing around British
00:14:00waters. yeah, mean there's a lot
00:14:02of Russian vessels, well it's air land or maritime that do lots of reconnaissance,
00:14:06and whilst in itself it looks fairly innocent, but what it's actually doing is
00:14:10hovering up lots of data intelligence, but also more crucially working
00:14:14out where our under sea cables are, but also what reaction
00:14:18NATO might do, so simply by being there, we get used to it being
00:14:22there, simply by operating aircraft that key coming to... air space, it
00:14:25tests us, makes us a bit more complacent, but I think the problem is slightly bigger than
00:14:29that, because again you go back to the cold war, we were ready for war at
00:14:33that day, the last 35 years, wars of choice in
00:14:37our navy, we've commissioned two the biggest aircraft carriers we've ever seen in
00:14:41our time, phenomenally capable, but good for power projection, wars
00:14:45of choice, not for wars of national survival, and the problem is
00:14:49is that we had to be ready 24 and seven, if you're going to be ready
00:14:5224 and seven, that's why we have four, nuclear submarines because we
00:14:56need one available at all times. you've only got two carriers, you've
00:15:00probably got
00:15:01long periods of time when one them is never going to be available. that's just not
00:15:04acceptable. if you're going to have a carrier capability, you got to be all in and
00:15:08do it 24 and se or have a shift system where the countries in
00:15:12NATO take over. so i think we're recovering from 35 years
00:15:15of understandable peace dividend. now is a wake cup call to
00:15:19work out that actually other nations, particularly Russia, particularly
00:15:23submarines have a... huge advantage over Europe, we need to get
00:15:27back into the really tricky world of anti-submarine warfare, whether it's
00:15:31air, land or maritime, to make sure that we're um detering
00:15:35that Russian aggression, and Sean, just why we have you here, "I know you're an Air Vice Marshall,
00:15:39but give me your assessment the UK Royal Navy, because lot of people feel
00:15:43that it has kind of year-on-year not being resourced to what it
00:15:46was. Yeah, I mean, I spent lot of time, I spent more time at float than many
00:15:50of my naval contemporaries, I would probably b to my guest here, but I
00:15:54spent many, many months on board aircraft carriers. One the things that Navy
00:15:58is absolutely outstanding professional, we've got some amazing people there,
00:16:02but because of this focus on the carriers, we've had to take
00:16:06risk a whole number."
00:16:07of other areas and now because the operational tempo, political
00:16:11pressure, we've got the people, there's a thousand fewer people in their all navy, it needs to
00:16:15be, those that are in there are working incredibly hard, moral is therefore difficult to
00:16:19maintain, and I think the first sealord finds himself an invidious position
00:16:23that from maritime very proud nation that's been defined by its
00:16:27maritime prowess, we find ourselves a bit of a low-eb at the moment,
00:16:31I think the future is going to be very positive, but my goodness we've got a bit of a
00:16:34mountain to climb. Thanks, Sean, Jean-François. talk to me
00:16:38about the the threat level then as you see it, is it all
00:16:42Russia or are there other actors at play that Europe needs
00:16:46to be worried about? I
00:16:49think um, one thing, I haven't spent any
00:16:53time on ship, because compared to my two panelists, uh, my initial plan
00:16:57was to become navy officer, and I realized that I have sea
00:17:00sickness, so that didn't pan
00:17:11yes, we could probably look for, and and uh, Sean,
00:17:15discuss I uh, believe, the China will be will be issue, but I
00:17:18think at the moment
00:17:19that the threat is mostly uh Russian when it comes to
00:17:23when it comes to Europe, we had report that NATO intercepted Russian operation
00:17:27near Swallbard uh, around the undersea cables that were
00:17:31here, uh, we've seen what the Shadow Fleet has been doing in
00:17:35in the
00:17:36in in recent years or..." have commercial vessel raking uh that we
00:17:40can sometimes attribute to Russia, sometime not, um, we've been
00:17:44raking their anchors at the bottom the the Baltic Sea for example, the cut
00:17:47cables there, um, so
00:17:50it it
00:17:50it is where it's located, the threat is also now, what we,
00:17:54taking NATO parliance a bit more multi domain right, like it's not strictly the
00:17:58Russian threat will take a maritime aspect, but that
00:18:01maritime aspect is going to be supported by hybrid
00:18:05effort, it's going to be supported by cyber
00:18:09space and effort and so on, and I
00:18:12think on that front, this is what NATO is moving to with its new war
00:18:16fighting concept of multi-domain operation, but to to to
00:18:20return very briefly to your question, no, for Europe, and and I mean the
00:18:24Danish assessment I think remain um remain
00:18:27sound, although when they it came out that Russia might
00:18:31initiate conflict either with Baltic border states or the
00:18:35browder of NATO within two and five years. "I think it's important
00:18:39to remember that this assessment came out year ago, so we're no longer
00:18:43two to five or one to four, so in very
00:18:47short, yes, Russia, for the moment, for the Europeans
00:18:50is the is the threat. Thank you, Mark,
00:18:54we've seen Russian vessels loitering off the coast of Ireland
00:18:58repeatedly, what were they up to, and
00:19:01how did the Irish government respond? Yeah, well, I
00:19:05think the Irish government has in recent years." strengthened its bilateral with
00:19:09the UK, it's bilateral with its nearest EU neighbor France, and
00:19:13it is actually greater, it's given greater support to, I
00:19:16suppose the multilateral framework. Ireland is
00:19:20militarily aligned, but that does not mean that it doesn't engage in
00:19:24information sharing, and we are currently have the present
00:19:28presidency the EU Council, so there is lot of
00:19:31bilateral, multilateral support in ensuring the architecture is
00:19:35right, that said, we are... concerned with regards the
00:19:38activities the Russian Federation, the Shan has mentioned the Yantar.
00:19:42Yanntar is a formidable vessel, while it may look like a civilian vessel,
00:19:46actually it's manned by Russian naval personnel, it's on the state
00:19:50register, so technically speaking under the law the sea convention is a
00:19:53warship, and you have to be careful in terms of how you operate
00:19:57around the vessel that has that status. Russian vessels
00:20:01in terms their shadow fleet have been increased in the
00:20:04jurisdiction around the Irish coast. have been evading sanctions
00:20:08and there is a real question over the seawordiness these
00:20:12vessels, the standards and certification the watchkeepers on these
00:20:16vessels, and there is a questioned in back to the
00:20:19integrity the international institutions, the law the sea
00:20:22convention to deal with vessels that are actually actively
00:20:26avoiding sanctions and at the same time playing
00:20:30fast and loose with international law. thank you mark, seaw, talk to me
00:20:34about this northern navy's initiative, so the UK
00:20:37training
00:20:38and and aligning itself closer with some the Nordic and Scandinavian countries, Norway
00:20:42in particular, seems to be lot about integrating systems
00:20:46and and sharing platforms so that if they were needed to
00:20:50together they would all be singing off the same song sheet, yeah, part
00:20:54of that is the Iceland Greenland gap,
00:20:58um, largely ignored, I think, for many, many years, probably
00:21:01decades, but it's a key geographic, it's a natural feature, where
00:21:05if Russian submarines want to make their way out from the Russian coastline
00:21:09into the Atlantic, then you've got to make your way through that,
00:21:13and there's a strategy based on, I have to look at my nose,
00:21:16Jan Bayden, it's right in the middle, and there's been a number of exercises being done.
00:21:20recently where the royal navy and some of its partner
00:21:23nations are reinforcing that island, it's strategically important for the
00:21:27gap, they're also making sure they can operate together, and of course it's worth remembering
00:21:31that anything when you as soon as you get into the arctic the weather becomes a bit more
00:21:34tricky and i wouldn't underestimate, it's easy to say well it's just a
00:21:38ship, but actually you've got to operate on the decks these ships, you got to operate
00:21:41aircraft, you got to operate helicopters and the like, and when it gets very cold,
00:21:45when the
00:21:46the sea gets very rough as well out there, which you can be in
00:21:48the winter, you need to train in that... environment and as um John said,
00:21:52I, I, I spent lot of time at sea, but I used to get seasick, it takes about three or four
00:21:56days before you get your sea legs, and it was thoroughly miserable for that
00:22:00time, but once you've got your sea legs and you're used to the operation, that's
00:22:04the huge value of training, and that's the one thing the Royal Navy is pushing hard to
00:22:07do with lots of its northern European allies at the moment, everyone thinks the
00:22:11Arctic is a big vast icy expanse, I'm guessing there is
00:22:15lot of submarine activity up there, but it's the way out for lot the Russian
00:22:19sub from their ports to get down to the Atlantic, I mean with global warming, there's
00:22:23a lot of northern roots now that are opening up, I saw in the news only earlier today, there's
00:22:27a Chinese vessel that's made its way up, and it saves a lot of time rather
00:22:31than going the southern route down through the sewis canal, you can go across the top, it
00:22:35saves a huge amount of time and therefore a huge amount of money, that'l become a strategically
00:22:39important route, and therefore we need to protect it and make sure it doesn't get closed
00:22:43down, thank you, Jean Francis, we've heard lot of talk about this Russian
00:22:47shadow fleet zipping through European. waters
00:22:50the channel between England and France in particular, how concerning
00:22:54is that then from a European perspective that they seem to be able to do what
00:22:58they want. well, what what is concerning is
00:23:02that there seems to be lack of interest
00:23:04in full-on engagement with the shadow fleet.
00:23:08mean, we've been talking about, we've been talking about this for,
00:23:11i don't know how many years, we know what they've been able to, that
00:23:15that that they've been able to help Russia uh go around sanctions and so on
00:23:19around the war.. so what worries me is, I mean,
00:23:22their movement and pattern are now well tracked and well
00:23:26situated, what is a little bit concerning to me is that
00:23:30despite knowing this, there's not an over
00:23:34over effort to actually um countd them, now I
00:23:37understand why, because we don't want to
00:23:40engage a like the Russians have threatens that an engagement there would also mean like an
00:23:44engagement with them, the they've linked it few times
00:23:46to the war in Ukraine and so on. Mark, to you, I see you have new book
00:23:50out, blue heart, war, climate, and the battle for the ocean that
00:23:54keeps us alive. how concerned are you about the kind the actual
00:23:57physical state of our seas? well, I
00:24:01am concerned, and we we tend to talk at the about the ocean as a battle space,
00:24:05but the ocean itself is part the critical infrastructure that
00:24:09is keeping us alive and that we should be trying to
00:24:12protect. the very reason we're having this conversation is the
00:24:16fact that the ocean absorb 90% the excess heat and...
00:24:2030% the excess carbon we emit, the ocean is obviously
00:24:23critical in terms of our security architecture, in terms of our
00:24:27energy, interconnectors, 80% of our
00:24:31LNG on this island comes via interconnectors at sea, and
00:24:35increasingly we can see the overwhelming dependency we
00:24:39have in terms of our tech economies on fiber optic
00:24:43cables, which are at the heart of Russian Federation in
00:24:47particular hybrid activities monitoring these cables. and in places
00:24:50interfering these cables, so I am concerned that we
00:24:54need to take a more holistic view in terms the oceans, I'm delighted to
00:24:58see that Europe is moving with an oceans act, and I think that that should be a
00:25:02chapo for other states in the European region who to have
00:25:06similar legislation so we can have that integrated
00:25:09approach to protecting this critical infrastructure that actually is
00:25:13keeping regulating our climate and as we move forward
00:25:17in initiatives such as 30% of our seas protected by
00:25:212030 that we actually begin to see the importance of
00:25:24biodiversity in our ocean spaces, which receives currently very little
00:25:28protection, biodiversity in the ocean is as valuable as
00:25:31rainforest on land, and yet we're we're not at the
00:25:35moment providing that that protection towards this vast
00:25:39amount of jurisdiction where there is critical amount of
00:25:42biodiversity currently being damaged daily. thank you, Mark. could
00:25:46i just pick up point that Mark made there, which i think we we miss
00:25:50slightly is it's all having a kit and equipment and ships and tanks and
00:25:54submarines, but actually unless you have political resolve, it
00:25:57becomes worthless, it's not a deterrent without having determination and
00:26:01resolve, and I think... what we're seeing exactly as the panelists have said is that
00:26:05Russia is just pushing the edges all the time, we're seeing them do it, but we're
00:26:08reluctant to do anything about it, and the danger is that emboldens president
00:26:12Putin, and I always refer back to the example when two Russian jets flew
00:26:16out of Syria towards Turkey, Turkey said, turn back, one them turned back, the
00:26:20other Russian jet continued, two F-16s from Turkey shot it
00:26:24down, President Putin went apoplectic, never again
00:26:27did Russian aircraft go into Turkish airspace, you have to be
00:26:31robust, I think... has to find a way, it's not going to precipitate
00:26:35a war, but unless we're more robust in the maritime domain, we are keep going to
00:26:39get pressurized. i think it's a fantastic point, and just to push this just a little
00:26:43bit further, we're a situation now in Europe where we might see
00:26:46government um that may decide then to to go a bit closer
00:26:50to um to Russia, we're seeing the uh
00:26:54everybody talks about the recent uh AFD election in Germany,
00:26:58but if this propagates through the country then we're going to end up
00:27:02a... where we might have very important state in
00:27:05Europe who might decide to cut back actions to
00:27:09counter uh Russia, the same looking at the French elections for
00:27:13example, and I agree, political will is the be
00:27:17is the number one variable that you need in order to be able to
00:27:21to do these things, and I'm I'm a bit concerned that in the next two to
00:27:24three, three, let's say two to five years um that political will is
00:27:28going to erold more than what it is now, as we we might be
00:27:32witnessing shift to governments that are more sympathetic
00:27:35to um uh to the Russians. Thank you. Sean, just
00:27:39one last point to you, with all these Russian vessels floating around, do you worry
00:27:43that it will be incident at sea that leads to something far, far
00:27:47bigger? No, is the short answer.
00:27:50I mean, having operate off her majesty's then her majesty's carriers, we had
00:27:54lots of incidents to see, we lost aeroplanes, all sorts, you just push them off the edge the ship and
00:27:58nobody's there to witness it, um, you just count them out when you leave and you count them
00:28:02back in. when you come back and there's no journalists on the ground, there's very little filming
00:28:05going on, so you can actually there's denial and all sorts of things going on
00:28:09around it. I do worry that we're not taking the sub-surface
00:28:13threat properly, because it's not just uh Russia's huge fleets
00:28:17or the tax submarines and nuclear submarines, it's also I think they've got 10
00:28:20experimental submarines that go to obscene depths that do all sorts of
00:28:24clever things on the seabed. Why are they doing that? They're all doing
00:28:28that because there's a macchievellian agenda going on here and we are going to get.
00:28:32surprised if we're not prepared, sean belle, thank you, Jean-François, and
00:28:36Mark in Ireland as well, thank you all, remember you can see more
00:28:40discussion and debate on our YouTube channel, search for roundtable TRT World,
00:28:44but for now from me and Brady and all the team here, goodbye and thank you for
00:28:47watching,
00:28:56new chapter in Afghanistan, insurrection and even an attempt in coup are
00:29:00just to overthrow an auto. You've seen the
00:29:04news, essentially Israel is apartide
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00:29:29of you have failed, all of you have failed Tunesia.
00:29:34The responsibility for dealing with that falls to the United Nations Security
00:29:38Council from every corner the globe.
00:29:41If fighting continues, what will there be left to fight
00:29:45for hundreds of thousands of not millions of people are left
00:29:49to start? The newsmakers
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00:30:13fighting escalates in Yemen as Ansara hutis and Saudi
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00:30:21the conflict is rattling oil markets as Saudi Arabia reportedly
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00:30:27port. Hello and welcome to TRT World
00:30:30live from Istanbul, I'm... also ahead on the
00:30:34program, at least six Palestinians are killed in
00:30:38Israeli attacks in Gaza despite a cease
00:30:40fire, and US senator Bernie
00:30:44Sanders and Trump Ally Steve Bannon unite over calls for tougher
00:30:47oversight of
00:30:48AI.