Türkiye: TRT World — Roundtable

20260920 07:30 UTC · 00:30:59 · 492 transcript segments · GDELT Visual Explorer · plain-text transcript · Event Map

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Transcript

Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.

00:00:02of
00:00:09Hello, you're watching TRT World. I'm Katie Pill
00:00:11me, a reminder now of our main headlines: Iran has laid out what it
00:00:15wants from the US before the restart
00:00:17of of any
00:00:18of negotiations on
00:00:19of ending their standoff and the conflict threatening the region now. Security
00:00:23chief at Mosim Razahi says seven conditions have been delivered
00:00:27via Qatar, as Donald Trump prepares. to meet golf leaders on
00:00:31the sidelines
00:00:32of the UN General Assembly in New York next
00:00:34week. The Saudi led Coalition says
00:00:38it's intercepted a hoothy ballistic missile targeting
00:00:41Riyad and stopped
00:00:43of a wider attack on several Saudi cities as well. But the hooters say
00:00:47their missiles
00:00:47of and drones hit sensitive sights in the capital and an Aramco
00:00:51facility
00:00:52of in Yambu causing large fires there. An
00:00:56a Israeli strike against the
00:00:57of civilian of vehicle in Gaza City has killed at least one person,
00:01:01will this raise the death toll on Saturday alone to five people
00:01:05killed in other
00:01:05of attacks as well, including Jibalia, Nizarat and Gaza
00:01:09City. It is the
00:01:10in latest of Israeli violation to the cease fire that was signed with Hamas in
00:01:14a October last
00:01:15of year, more than 1,300 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli
00:01:19attack since that agreement. English
00:01:22music
00:01:23of star, Ned
00:01:24of Sheren has apologized to fans for how he's handled the
00:01:27controversy over the dropping of American. He was
00:01:31removed from the 22 stop tour
00:01:33of after stadium owners objected to
00:01:37pro-palestinian comments he made on stage in New
00:01:40of Jersey.
00:01:41of Weshiren has blamed the tour promoter for the move, all of Shirin's remaining
00:01:44support acts
00:01:45of and his backing band then pulled out in solidarity with
00:01:49Macalmore. But this week the criticism was about
00:01:53something much more important and I've had to take uh and make difficult
00:01:57decisions and I am making mistakes and I'm... so so
00:02:01sorry. The US military says it's killed
00:02:05four people
00:02:05in a strike a vessel in the Caribbean. US
00:02:08of southern command says intelligence showed the vessel was involved in drug
00:02:12trafficking. Well, the strike is the latest
00:02:15in a campaign launched last year against groups, the Trump administration
00:02:19describes as narcoterrorists. Human rights groups have
00:02:22criticized operations as extrajudicial
00:02:25killings. The news continues on TRT
00:02:29World after. Africa matters
00:02:31of for
00:02:38of you,
00:02:43in
00:02:56welcome to African matters, I'm Grace Kir.
00:03:00global leaders take the podium at the UN general assembly in New
00:03:04York from September 22nd, it comes just weeks after
00:03:08African countries secured the adoption of new
00:03:12map showing the continent's true size and recognition
00:03:16of the transatlantic slave trade as the gravest crime against
00:03:19humanity earlier this year, so what's next on their
00:03:28of of agenda? security. council
00:03:31that
00:03:32of today does not represent geographically the
00:03:39of of realities of the world, we have three european permanent members, one north american and one
00:03:42asian, no latin america, no
00:03:46of africans, is obviously security council
00:03:49that has a
00:03:50of problem of legitimacy, and that brings with it a
00:03:54problem of effectiveness, and that's why African
00:03:57nations are pushing for two. permanent sits at the UN
00:04:01security council with veto powers and five
00:04:05non-permanent sits. According to the UN office
00:04:08of the Special Advisor in Africa, they also want to tackle debt
00:04:12crisis by reinforcing their collective bargaining position in
00:04:16debt repayment negotiations and reduce borrowing costs
00:04:20by promoting their own home grown
00:04:22of credit rating
00:04:23of alternative. Despite low emissions of just about 4%
00:04:27globally, according to the international energy. agency,
00:04:30Africa faces severe climate impact, leaders are
00:04:34demanding more financial
00:04:36of support for adaptation, delivery on loss and
00:04:39of damage pledges and increased climate finance by the major
00:04:43pollutors. now the continent wants more refining of
00:04:47minerals at source so that it can create jobs, boost
00:04:50energy security and ensure greater returns from
00:04:54natural resources and with conflicts in Sudan, the
00:04:58DRC, the Sahal and horn of Africa, its leaders are
00:05:02calling for stronger backing of African led peace and
00:05:06security initiatives. Most of our of our crisis
00:05:10on the continent are fueled from
00:05:12abroad, financial
00:05:16resources, ammunitions, sometimes even fighters come
00:05:20to fight another war from other continent,
00:05:24and it is indeed very, very tough
00:05:27challenge, either in the sahel or here in the
00:05:31Sudan, in the horn of Africa or even on other crisis in
00:05:35Eastern DC, and you have watched it yourself through
00:05:39television that there are foreign fighters even fighting. in
00:05:43those areas, so it's very important that our
00:05:45position, is coordinating on on those issues
00:05:49and we will continue to advocate
00:05:53for a non-interference in those crises and in particular to
00:05:57let the African continent put the right diagnosis and the
00:06:01right solution for the African problems. right, and one such
00:06:04solution came in March when the United Nations adopted
00:06:08resolution recognizing the enslavement and trafficking of Africa.
00:06:13during the transatlantic slave trade as the gravest crime
00:06:16against humanity, descendants of enslaved Africans and
00:06:20many across the continent, now hope it will help push through the long
00:06:24running campaign to write the historic wrongs the
00:06:28slave trade and its enduring legacies, as Isaac Kalaji
00:06:32reports. Thomas Abanqua is a
00:06:35historian and guide at Gane's Cape Coast
00:06:39Castle. He helps preserve the memory.
00:06:43of one of his nation's darkest
00:06:45chapters, thousands of Africans
00:06:48passed through these dungeons before being shipped
00:06:52across the Atlantic. They were part of at
00:06:56least 12.5 million Africans taken
00:07:00and sold between the 15th and 19th
00:07:03centuries. More than 200 years
00:07:06after the transatlantic slave trade ended, its
00:07:10impact remains deeply emotional. "I would say
00:07:14most often we talk about the inslavement of
00:07:17Africans
00:07:18and as well we also talk about the impact
00:07:21and things that are actually happened in here over the years that th actually
00:07:25have taken place. Halima Baghdadi is an
00:07:29African-American tourist who believes her
00:07:32ancestors came from here. A human being would do
00:07:36something to another human being. You would even cheat an animal that
00:07:39way. For me is very emotional. you can
00:07:42see
00:07:47my answers had to do, had to go through all of this.
00:07:51in March, the UN general assembly declared the
00:07:54transatlantic slave trade the gravous crime against
00:07:58humanity. Gana let that effort and has
00:08:02since pushed for a unified African position on
00:08:06reparative justice. Along with Caribbean
00:08:09nations, they are seeking former apologies.
00:08:16of stolen cultural heritage from countries that profitted from slavery
00:08:22and the and return colonialism. for many, justice and
00:08:25reparations are essential to addressing this painful
00:08:28legacy, but despite the growing calls for accountability,
00:08:32it's still unclear how reparative justice will
00:08:36ultimately take shape. some former
00:08:39colonial powers oppose reparations. arguing that
00:08:43today's generation should not be held accountable
00:08:47for the actions the past, but abanqa
00:08:50disagrees, reparation don't just come in form of
00:08:54let's say money, where when talk about reparation, people are looking
00:08:58at restitutions are there, they took a lot of artifacts and as
00:09:02well traditional stuff from us. Ghana plans to
00:09:05highlight the actions taken since the resolution was
00:09:09passed as world leaders meet at this years. UN general
00:09:13assembly, they also hope that with international backing
00:09:17for justice and restitution, the push for
00:09:20reparation will soon become a reality.
00:09:24Isaac Kalaji, africa matters, Accra.
00:09:28So Antonio Guteres's time as UN Secretary general
00:09:32ends on December 31st this year, so there
00:09:36are eight candidates who are in the race to succeed
00:09:39him, including two from Africa. You see them right
00:09:43there, the former Senegalese President Marquisal who is arguing
00:09:47a major overhaul the UN Security Council while also
00:09:51calling for stronger support ease the debt buttons weighing
00:09:55on developing countries. We also have Ugandan
00:09:58diplomat and former UN under secretary general
00:10:01Olara Otunu who is vowing to press ahead with
00:10:05institutional reforms and place priority on
00:10:08resolving major international conflicts.
00:10:13Right, let's hear more from Dubai sino. He is the managing partner and
00:10:16chief executive of next year SPD that security
00:10:20peace and development, an international consulting firm working
00:10:24in. Nigeria and across Africa, he joins me from
00:10:28Abuja in Nigeria, thank you very much as always for making the
00:10:32time for this conversation, so African countries
00:10:35have collectively lobbied and pushed through two very
00:10:39important UN resolutions this year. The question is,
00:10:43can they do the same to finally get a permanent
00:10:47seat at the UN Security Council table? Thank
00:10:51you for inviting me, I think they can.
00:10:55why i may not give all the credit to the African
00:10:59states and government, i may maybe give them a bit of it, but i
00:11:03want to give this credit more to the African Civil
00:11:05society, the most these push you're seeing
00:11:09are coming from African civil society,
00:11:13incidentally or luckily enough we equally have civil
00:11:16society from the west helping and
00:11:20that's what the result you are seeing and more importantly you could
00:11:24see the quality. of products from Africa, I mean
00:11:28human products across most these
00:11:31international development organizations, you will see
00:11:35the quality of Africans who are there from the world bank, the UN and
00:11:39so on, it means that Africa is making a statement with the
00:11:43quality of people is producing, and this quality of people is
00:11:47rubbing on on the nature the civil society that we have in
00:11:50Africa, and this civil society are putting
00:11:54pressure. on the African states and government who are in
00:11:57turn giving the lead to what we are witnessing, so
00:12:01I still believe vividly that Africa may because the
00:12:05pressure from African Civil society as well as civil
00:12:09society across most the western state, especially the three
00:12:13permanent the five permanent seat members where you have
00:12:16their members asking them to allow a seat for Africa or
00:12:20so and that's the result we are saying. let's wait and see
00:12:24now we have some key issues here, climate, finance, debt
00:12:28relief and fairer global financial rules, what
00:12:32substantial results can African nations actually get this
00:12:36time round at this years Ungar? I mean, these
00:12:40these are issue of diplomacy, um, why I may
00:12:44not be so certain about how much we can get,
00:12:47but if you know that to to most African states
00:12:51this almost like ritual, is like jambury, so... I don't know how
00:12:55well prepared a lot them are, but if I may
00:12:59say with the civil society, um, you could see
00:13:03that most them take a lot out of what happens of
00:13:06hunger, and when they come back the next year, they
00:13:10are well prepared, I mean for Africa to get lot from
00:13:13Hunga, it could be um, the kind of
00:13:17leadership the AU, the African Union may have
00:13:20given, that I doubt, I doubt that from what we
00:13:24see. maybe the war going on in Congo, the war going on
00:13:28in Somalia, how the African Union have intervened and
00:13:31and has helped in leading that, if we cannot
00:13:35be solving our own local problem, how can we
00:13:39influence such a big issues in in in
00:13:43in the global stage, especially with the UN, I may not assure
00:13:47you of everything, but like they say um the the
00:13:50the
00:13:51the test the puding is in the eating, I believe that stating our
00:13:55case continuous pressure may, it may not be this
00:13:58year,
00:13:59but um, it may get us to where we want to be, especially with the
00:14:03rise the middle powers like Turkey, Brazil,
00:14:07helping in championing our case, uh, it might be,
00:14:11maybe not today, but maybe tomorrow, you mentioned the civil
00:14:15society organization lot, which makes me curious about our African
00:14:18leaders, are you in other words saying the let us down, at least or
00:14:22they've left the continent down, is thus far?
00:14:26mean, they they've not, they've not um done as much as we
00:14:30expected, they are no, they are no is or bts
00:14:34about that, the African state haven't tried as much as we
00:14:38expected, but that's why you could see the the civil
00:14:41society from the churches to the
00:14:44traditional to the NGOs, championing most
00:14:48the courts um the state could be doing, mean it's no
00:14:52against saying that the informal governance in Africa. is doing lot
00:14:56than the former governance, so and um, I
00:15:00believe that the pressure from the civil societies could could help um
00:15:03unlock some the things the state is unable to
00:15:07do. All right, so let's talk about another key issue,
00:15:11which is the transatlantic slave trade reparations that was brought
00:15:15by Gana in March this year, quite historic, I would
00:15:18say, what does
00:15:19that reveal about global justice and how likely it is or is
00:15:23it to translate into? concrete policy commitments, global
00:15:27diplomacy is not almost um, has never been
00:15:31a te party right, so is one
00:15:34where um things... dog eat
00:15:38dogs, let's be honest about that, I'm not sure what we're going to
00:15:42get, but for the fact that we take we've taken it to
00:15:45that height of um advocacy and
00:15:48diplomacy um is the way to go,
00:15:52probably with if we
00:15:53are able to get one of us elected as the secretary general the the
00:15:57UN, maybe that might be another pathway towards what we can
00:16:01get. I know you mentioned it, but I want to talk about it, the
00:16:04UN sector and position gutieres is... time ends on December
00:16:0831st, we have two contenders from Africa, former Senegalese president
00:16:12Makisal, Ugandan diplomat in former UN under secretary general
00:16:16or Lara Otun, what are their chances, because there's also been
00:16:20talk about getting woman to lead the global body,
00:16:24but what are the chances these two Africans? yeah, I i had wish
00:16:28that um two the Amazons that we have in two them are from
00:16:32Nigeria, um, if either them had um thrown her
00:16:36cup, you into the field, but I wish
00:16:40Africa could equally scale down to one between the
00:16:43two, I mean two them coming out to contest with my
00:16:47speed a kind of speed the vote into two,
00:16:51I'm not sure what their chances are, considering
00:16:55that we recently had two other Africans
00:16:58um who held on who who were appointed as
00:17:01secretary general, not not not more than 20 years ago,
00:17:05so I'm not a british but... and
00:17:09Kofian nan, so I'm not sure how this will play, but I
00:17:13wish we could present only one candidate, but that's that
00:17:16shows, that shows the strength the African Union, it
00:17:20shows the African Union is almost like paper tiger,
00:17:24because if he's as strong as it is, he could have find a way to for
00:17:28Africa to present just one candidate, do we see their
00:17:31managing partner and chief executive of next year
00:17:35SPD, thank you very much sir for your time. and valuable
00:17:39contribution
00:17:46to Nigeria now, where Africa's biggest refinery has
00:17:49opened its doors to investors, billionaire Alico Dangotte
00:17:53is seeking to raise 1.6 billion US dollars in the
00:17:57continent's biggest initial public offering or IPO and
00:18:01it's already drawing huge interest. Kubra akorch has
00:18:05the story. chance to own a piece
00:18:09of one of Africa's biggest businesses, shares in
00:18:12Aliko Dangode's giant oil refinery
00:18:16recently went on sale, giving Nigerians a
00:18:19stake a business that has already transformed the country's fuel
00:18:23market. Now we are owning back our Nigerian
00:18:27oil, so I believe the group, investing in that group is the
00:18:30lifetime opportunity, being imagine being a part
00:18:34owner of something that is Nigerian that will grow. The
00:18:38$1.6 billion share sale is the
00:18:41largest initial public offering in the African
00:18:44continent and in the history of Nigeria. It's also
00:18:48country's first fully digital IPO aimed at retail
00:18:52investors. Several investment apps crashed
00:18:56as people tried to buy a minimum of 10 shares
00:19:00costing around $40. By the end of day one we
00:19:04had cleared around 70% the backlog and by the start of. business on
00:19:08day two, we had cleared 100% the backlog and
00:19:11now we, are good to go, we've increased our
00:19:15capacity just by you massive orders of
00:19:18magnitude. Africa's richest man says the aim is to make
00:19:22ownership accessible to ordinary Nigerians. Now we
00:19:26are looking at what do we create, what do you want to really create? what
00:19:30you want to create is the likes of Amazon, the likes of
00:19:34Microsoft, why people bought these shares for next to? nothing
00:19:38and now those shares have become something big, the
00:19:42refinery has shaped Nigeria's fuel market since it
00:19:46began operation in 2024, helping the country that
00:19:49once relied heavily on imports to produce more of its
00:19:53own. It can process 700 thousand barrels of oil a
00:19:57day with Dangode planning to more than double that to
00:20:011.4 million barrels a day by 2029. The
00:20:05company also plans to launch a massive... refinery plant of
00:20:08Kenya's coast, linking it to the East African
00:20:12market, but despite the excitement, investing is
00:20:16still out of reach for many Nigerians, we are trying to
00:20:19survive, it's a good development, but it's
00:20:23not for for the poor, for poor people like
00:20:26us, but if you have money you can invest in it, but for
00:20:30we we are trying to survive, keep it
00:20:33going, the IPO values the refinery at around.
00:20:50can deliver on his company's share
00:20:52value. Africa
00:20:55matters. Across africa, informal
00:20:58businesses like market stoles and hairdresses provide
00:21:02work and affordable services for millions of people.
00:21:06But governments want to bring more these businesses under formal
00:21:09regulation, but how can they do that without harming the
00:21:13livelihoods they support? Elias Abgi finds
00:21:16out. Pavements, residential street.
00:21:20public spaces: in almost all cities in Africa,
00:21:24informal businesses find room wherever they can,
00:21:27clothes, stalls and food sellers often bring affordable goods
00:21:31onto streets and neighborhoods, providing a job and
00:21:34income. it's a survival economy. young
00:21:38person who has finished training but cannot find a job in the formal sector takes
00:21:42refuge in the informal sector to survive, hoping something will happen in the
00:21:46future. the international labor organization estimates
00:21:50nearly 83% of employment in Africa is
00:21:54informal. It includes street trading and employees
00:21:57working without contracts or social protection. Earning
00:22:01living doesn't necessarily generate enough money to build
00:22:04registered business. We do not
00:22:08yet have opportunities to formalize our businesses, and at the same
00:22:12time we lack the means to do so. The little we earn during the
00:22:16day goes toward feeding our families and meeting our needs.
00:22:20Consequently, we cannot save enough to hope to break out the
00:22:23situation and move to the next stage, but working
00:22:27without licenses often brings traders into conflict with
00:22:31the authorities. Governments have used all sorts of measures
00:22:35ranging from demolutions and seizures to training and
00:22:38support, but clearing public space leaves another
00:22:42question unresolved. Where should the businesses
00:22:45go? We want the state to find our shops or space.
00:22:50is where
00:22:50we can work normally since it doesn't want us to sell our goods in the
00:22:54streets. governments want more small businesses to
00:22:58pay tax, even though not all informal work flies
00:23:02under the radar. if i'm paying tax now, i'm just paying because is
00:23:06um something that is is right for me to do, but
00:23:09benefit no, we don't even have people
00:23:13coming around doing what gover supposed to do, we
00:23:17do it on our own. economists. that easier
00:23:21registration must come with access to finance and safe
00:23:24places where small businesses can operate, that would
00:23:28give traders support to grow and boost their fortunes as well
00:23:32as the formal economy, africa
00:23:36matters. to South Africa now, where closed
00:23:40mines in Johannesburg are often plended for what little gold
00:23:43remains, and as Bahar Ur reports, the damage cost
00:23:47is far more than a hole in the ground.
00:23:51These man-made piles of earth across Johannesburg are known
00:23:55locally as mine dumps. They are historical reminders
00:23:59of this mining city once known as the city of
00:24:03gold. The mines have long been abandoned after the
00:24:07last official mine in the city closed in May
00:24:101997. Since then illegal miners
00:24:14have moved in. I make over
00:24:17$600 a month and I will send some of it. to support my
00:24:20children, but their digging is making it
00:24:24unsafe for residencia and they're also accused of
00:24:28damaging electricity cables, water pipes and
00:24:31roads. today people are living in fears,
00:24:35some the people are left without anything, they don't have houses
00:24:39anymore, some the people left the area, they don't have life
00:24:43anymore, they don't know where to work to start to rebuild their
00:24:47houses because their houses have been taken over by this
00:24:50illegal mining, but the damage caused by these
00:24:54illegal mines is not limited to land and
00:24:57infrastructure, it often comes with violent
00:25:01crime. the families or residents are always in
00:25:04fear, terrorized, um, there's been rape
00:25:08cases, there's a lot of um kidnapping for ransom that is
00:25:12done by these guys and it's their activities are not only limited
00:25:16to mining, they also um target uh
00:25:20electricity cables, as you saw, they dig these trenches on the
00:25:23roads. In 2024, South Africa lost over
00:25:273 billion dollars to illegal mining, according to government
00:25:31data. A study done in May this year shows that
00:25:35nearly 6,100 mining sites have been
00:25:38abandoned, many are still unsafe and
00:25:42easily accessible. Between 5% and 30% of
00:25:46South Africa's total gold output is estimated to be.
00:25:50and traded illegally, more than 200
00:25:54soldiers have been deployed to assist police in fighting
00:25:57crime, gang violence and illegal mining until
00:26:01march next year. but for those living in the shadow these
00:26:05abandoned minds, winning the battle against criminal
00:26:08networks, can't come soon enough. Bahar Uighur,
00:26:12Africa matters. Meanwhile, more than
00:26:152,500 delegates from 44 African
00:26:18countries and Turkish business leaders gathered in Istanbul,
00:26:22build, trade and investment ties. It comes as Turkey's
00:26:26exports to Africa jumped 12% to 11
00:26:29billion dollars in the first half of 2026. with total trade
00:26:33now around $40 billion dollars. Brenda Zedda Radido has
00:26:37more from the Forum Venue. The gathering comes as
00:26:41TK and African nations seek to
00:26:44expand trade, investment and long-term business
00:26:48partnerships for African businesses. Turkey offers
00:26:52manufacturing, logistics and investment connections. This type of
00:26:56meeting are very important because it gives the opportunity to the two side to
00:26:59meet, to our business people to meet with Turkish. business operators
00:27:03in order to see how to make joint ventures together
00:27:06to build factories, industries in our African
00:27:10countries, because we have huge potentials. for Turkish companies,
00:27:14Africa represents a growing market for exports, investment
00:27:18and industrial cooperation. there are many areas that the
00:27:22turkish know-how and technology that needs to go in,
00:27:26one them would definitely be technology, so that's an
00:27:30area that needs to be supported and it's an area that everybody
00:27:33should keep focus on, I would also say
00:27:37there are areas that are in production needs to
00:27:41be brought to Africa, the Turkish expertise in car
00:27:45production for example, metallic works. Turkey's
00:27:49economic engagement with the African continent has expanded
00:27:52sharply over the past two decades. Turkey has signed
00:27:5650 trade agreements with African nations, including the free trade
00:28:00agreements with Egypt, Tunese. Morocco and
00:28:03Mauritius, while negotiations on free trade agreements continue
00:28:07with Ghana, Cameroon, Libya and the Democratic Republic the
00:28:11Congo. The total value of projects undertaken by Turkish
00:28:15contracting companies in Africa has reached nearly 100
00:28:18billion dollars. This projects spanning across the continent have
00:28:22made significant contributions to Africa's development.
00:28:26From Istanbul, the message at FX 2026 is
00:28:30clear. The future. Relations between
00:28:33Africa and Turkey will not only depend on trade, but it will
00:28:37require long-term investments and partnerships. Brenda
00:28:41Zadaradido for Africa Marters, Istanbul,
00:28:44tokia. That's our show this week on
00:28:48African matters, what can the African continent achieve
00:28:51at this year's UN general assembly? You can leave your comments on our
00:28:55YouTube page or on X. Thanks for watching and it's
00:28:59goodbye from me, Grace, Korea.
00:30:10Iran's security chief says the US has been given seven
00:30:14conditions for restarting talks as Donald Trump
00:30:17considers his next move in
00:30:19the standoff, or he is due to meet golf leaders in New
00:30:23York on the sidelines the UN general assembly a shipping disruption
00:30:27goes on in the straight of Hamos. Hello and
00:30:31welcome to TRT World. Live from Istanbul, you're with me Katie Pilbu,
00:30:35also ahead on the program for you. A refinery near Moscow is
00:30:39a blaze after hundreds of Ukrainian drones launched at the
00:30:42Russian capital on the final day of parliament elections
00:30:46there. And weeks after a far right party scored its first
00:30:50regional election victory since World War Two. German voters are
00:30:54going to the polls in
00:30:55Berlin.
Data courtesy of The GDELT Project (gdeltproject.org), from the Internet Archive TV News Archive. Film strip and transcript are GDELT's, rehosted here under their terms of use, which permit it with this citation.