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00:00:00to protect the building,
00:00:02until
00:00:04the emotions surrounding this university subside, until
00:00:08everyone acknowledges that I am a legitimate, legally
00:00:11appointed, acting rector
00:00:14commander of the Academy of Justice. Are
00:00:18you convinced that in this case there was no shortcut change in a situation
00:00:22where the rector's term, indeed according to the law,
00:00:25was 5 years, written... I wasn't interested
00:00:28in the whole procedure or
00:00:31the reasons for the dismissal, it's not like,
00:00:34I'm not a lawyer, I can't assess
00:00:38that, but I have faith that the ministry
00:00:41handled it carefully enough and legally
00:00:44enough that
00:00:47it raises no doubts, because the fact is that this procedure has been
00:00:50ongoing since March, it's not like
00:00:54someone is forcibly removing someone from
00:00:58their office, it's... an ongoing procedure that is ongoing
00:01:01and I think,
00:01:05I have the impression that Mr. Sopiński
00:01:08has mastered the evasion tactics not to receive
00:01:11correspondence, I'll put it this way,
00:01:14even in
00:01:17all the locations where
00:01:20our university, the Academy of Justice, has
00:01:24secretariats, orders were issued for those
00:01:27secretariats not to accept...
00:01:30official correspondence from the central board or from
00:01:33the Ministry
00:01:41you to Marek Czyż's program "Bez Retuszu" (Without Retouching). See you.
00:02:13Without retouching. Marek, I welcome you. This
00:02:16autumn, the Constitutional Tribunal will operate efficiently and in accordance with
00:02:19the constitution. This is what Minister Żurek promises, but for now the situation
00:02:23is such that a town of defenders of the current
00:02:25is to put this train back on form of this tribunal has set up outside its headquarters, and
00:02:27you... Where does
00:02:37this passionate
00:02:41defense of an institution that they themselves
00:02:45liquidated come from among politicians? We have
00:02:49more questions on this matter. Our guests in the studio are Mrs. Barbara Dolniak,
00:02:51Civic Coalition.
00:02:59We want
00:03:09to ask you today, because part of this quarrel is also based
00:03:13on the fact that the President has a rather particular
00:03:16attitude towards candidates chosen by the Sejm. There are considerable
00:03:20problems with the punctuality of swearing-in, the place
00:03:23of swearing-in, and the willingness to swear in. So we are asking you today
00:03:26whether, in your opinion, the President should swear in everyone. to inform
00:04:00the president, that's their responsibility, that's simply
00:04:03destroying the state, destroying the rule of law. We expect
00:04:07the president to show that he treats Poland as a common
00:04:11duty and common responsibility, not a field of constant battle. We want
00:04:14to immediately begin carrying out our duties, because that's why
00:04:18we were elected. We were there yesterday, we are here today. Until I am
00:04:21informed by the President that these individuals have taken an oath to
00:04:25the President, they will not establish
00:04:28an employment relationship.
00:05:02nothing indicates the end of this story, but
00:05:05do you, starting with the MP, can you imagine
00:05:09a situation where the police enter the Tribunal's headquarters?
00:05:12arresting Mr. Święczkowski red-handed, as we hear, because he doesn't want to hire a properly
00:05:16elected judge, the balance of power in the Constitutional
00:05:19Tribunal changes, it operates normally.
00:05:23I
00:05:26never imagined that such a situation
00:05:28could arise in a law-abiding state
00:05:32where the Tribunal cannot operate in full composition, because, ladies
00:05:36and gentlemen, the Constitutional Tribunal consists of 15
00:05:39judges, and...
00:05:43hand in hand with the president they cause this
00:05:46tribunal to actually not be able to convene even in its
00:05:49smallest full composition. I don't know what decisions
00:05:53will be made, because they don't belong to me. I'm asking
00:05:56a lawyer, do you imagine such
00:05:59an action, the police? It doesn't have to
00:06:02be a lawyer, editor, for it to be difficult for him to
00:06:06imagine a situation where organs
00:06:09like the police enter the Constitutional Tribunal.
00:06:44prevent
00:06:46compliance with the law. Mr. Bogdan Świeczkowski breaks
00:06:50the law every day. He is
00:06:53obligated according to the code, and in fact, he is now threatened
00:06:57with liability under Article 231 of the Criminal
00:07:00Code for dereliction of duty, because
00:07:04a judge elected by the Sejm
00:07:07from that moment is a judge of the Constitutional
00:07:10Tribunal, I will ask the MP.
00:07:12Is there another option then, because the situation can
00:07:16continue in this form indefinitely, we know the President's
00:07:20perspective, probably nothing will come of Mr. Berek's swearing-in,
00:07:23or it will take an infinitely long time. How long can this
00:07:27last in this form? As
00:07:29can be seen, President Karol Nawrocki, Law and Justice, Mr.
00:07:33Święczkowski, i.e. the governor of Law and Justice in the Constitutional
00:07:36Tribunal, wanted it to last forever, because the Constitutional
00:07:39Tribunal became such a machine for issuing
00:07:43political rulings on behalf of either PiS or
00:07:47Karol Nawrocki, who either refers to the tribunal, stating
00:07:50that he will not sign, and in this
00:07:53situation the Constitutional Tribunal must either rule on the unconstitutionality of some
00:07:57legal act that does not suit it, or
00:08:00that act must get stuck there. What's the point here? The point is that,
00:08:03ladies and gentlemen, let's remember who heads
00:08:07the Constitutional Tribunal. It is a man who ran
00:08:10from the list to the... provincial council and was elected
00:08:14an MP and is a colleague of Zbigniew Ziobro, who is now in
00:08:18forced exile because he fled from justice and was
00:08:21also his right-hand man in the prosecutor's office, and the deputy
00:08:25in the Constitutional Tribunal is a judge who was a PiS councilor
00:08:29in Szczecin, and in the Constitutional Tribunal, who else
00:08:32is there? There is Judge Piotrowicz, also a judge of
00:08:35Martial Law, an MP of Law and Justice. So today Law and
00:08:39Justice is not defending the Constitutional Tribunal, but... its
00:08:43people whom it sent there with a mission. I understand all
00:08:46that, but I'm asking what Minister Żurek means by saying that
00:08:49this system will be fixed in autumn, since
00:08:52the circumstances are still the same. We must restore
00:08:55the Constitutional Tribunal to the citizens, because in this political dispute
00:08:58we have forgotten that the Constitutional Tribunal rules on matters
00:09:02concerning all of us. An example of this is the
00:09:06care allowance, when the Tribunal ruled that it does not
00:09:09only concern immediate family, but anyone who cares for... a person with
00:09:13disabilities is also entitled to such a care allowance.
00:09:16Or in 2022,
00:09:19October 22nd, when the Constitutional Tribunal, on the order of
00:09:23PiS, stated that the premise that allowed for
00:09:26the performance, the performance of legal abortion, i.e., severe, irreversible
00:09:29damage to the
00:09:32fetus, the question was different, how do you imagine
00:09:35it, what do you think the minister means,
00:09:37the
00:09:40situation is, if we move on to analyzing the situation in the tribunal, in which
00:09:44if the President, who of course will not
00:09:48do so, had accepted the oath from all legally elected
00:09:51judges by the Sejm, who became judges of
00:09:55the Constitutional Tribunal at the moment of election, and he had
00:09:58accepted the oath, well, it would have happened after the election of
00:10:01Mr. Judge
00:10:04Maciej Berek, that the majority in this
00:10:08tribunal would be judges, judges who are...
00:10:36swore and pledged to defend, he defends the interests of PiS and defends this
00:10:40arrangement, this arrangement, it seems that only Minister Żurek knows
00:10:43how. Today the situation is very simple. If for
00:10:47a moment, if for a moment Mr. Święczkowski
00:10:50ceased to preside over the Constitutional
00:10:53Tribunal. As president, and any
00:10:57of his deputies, or the longest-serving
00:11:00judge, took over leadership, and it would be possible
00:11:03to convene a general assembly of all judges
00:11:07who have taken an oath to the president, and were legally elected
00:11:10by the Sejm, we could
00:11:14change the president of the Constitutional Tribunal
00:11:17and restore its operation, but that would require
00:11:21several steps, which Minister Żurek is probably
00:11:24thinking about, including revoking the immunity of the
00:11:27judge, for which the introduction of this elected four, in fact
00:11:31six, seven now is needed.
00:11:35Let's go back to that thread, but I have to activate Professor Karski. Do you
00:11:38like such a tribunal
00:11:41where nothing works, where you, editor, asked
00:11:44what can be done in this situation, I think
00:11:48the only solution is to achieve consensus among
00:11:51all parliamentary groups.
00:11:56The Constitutional Tribunal, like any state
00:11:59body, can be easily
00:12:02derailed. We have such a situation here, in
00:12:062015, we all remember, it started
00:12:09with the election of an excessive number of judges
00:12:13by the PO-PSL coalition. The Constitutional Tribunal
00:12:16deemed this unconstitutional,
00:12:18and
00:12:21it's easy, it's easy to derail such an institution,
00:12:26but then it's hard to
00:12:28rebuild it. I compare it to a train
00:12:31disaster, where the tracks, the
00:12:34wagons, the locomotive are no longer useful for anything, they can only go to
00:12:38scrap, but where do you see the scope for such a discussion? I think
00:12:41such a moment will come when we will all
00:12:45be able to reach an agreement, otherwise it cannot be done. You here speak many
00:12:49words, you say,
00:12:51you put forward theses that are not supported.
00:13:02For example, the fact that from the moment of
00:13:05election, the person elected to
00:13:08the office of judge of the Constitutional Tribunal assumes their office.
00:13:12You read only the provision stating that the Sejm
00:13:15elects judges of the Constitutional Tribunal, but you do not read
00:13:19the provisions of Article 197 of the Constitution,
00:13:22which obliges Parliament,
00:13:55let's recall, because they are quite interesting, they show
00:13:58that no, not so long ago,
00:14:01polar perspectives can change.
00:14:04Let's listen,
00:14:13the president is bound by the resolution of the Sejm, it cannot
00:14:16be that the president, for example, I don't know, accepts the judicial oath from
00:14:20someone other than the one who is elected by, or only from
00:14:24some. No, no, so here is the problem that
00:14:28this constitutional norm is still very clear. The constitution does not
00:14:32directly require that the oath from persons elected to
00:14:35the position of judge be taken by the president.
00:14:39The oath is undoubtedly essential, because it creates
00:14:42the possibility of performing the function, but the constitution
00:14:45leaves it to the legislator to decide before
00:14:48which state body it will be submitted. In
00:14:522019,
00:15:28presented here is a manipulation, I'll say it straight,
00:15:32you presented here the statement of MP Piotrowicz
00:15:35as a representative of the motion.
00:15:39of the law, where he discusses a situation that was to be introduced, he discussed
00:15:43de lege ferenda provisions, those that are to be. At that time, it was intended
00:15:47to transfer the competence
00:15:49of swearing in judges of the Constitutional Tribunal from
00:15:53the president to the Marshal of the Sejm. Here
00:15:57the then MP Piotrowicz describes a model that was to be
00:16:00adopted, not the one that is. This was to be
00:16:04a return to the model from before 1990,
00:16:08because then, before the currently binding constitution,
00:16:12under the earlier statutory provisions, an oath was also
00:16:16taken before the Marshal of the Sejm. And what model did
00:16:20the President describe? And the MP described, President
00:16:23Duda described such a model. And President Duda described
00:16:27the situation in which we are dealing with, that the president is
00:16:30obliged to swear in the people who were
00:16:34elected, as long as this obligation of his is updated.
00:16:58December 3, 2015, then operating under
00:17:02the presidency of President Andrzej
00:17:04Żpliński.
00:17:15when there are doubts about
00:17:18the formal aspects of the election, or new circumstances emerged
00:17:21after the election that cause
00:17:25that particular circumstances, Professor,
00:17:28regarding those judges whose oath the president did not
00:17:31accept, because he did not even justify it,
00:17:34he delays, he breaks the constitution and... that's the
00:17:37truth, and you too, sitting here with us today and having
00:17:41the viewers of this program before you, will not name
00:17:44a single reason, even though the president generally has no right not
00:17:48to accept an oath, but if you wanted to delve into that flawed
00:17:51interpretation, in other words to state,
00:17:55you won't name even a single reason why
00:17:58the president shouldn't or couldn't accept the oath of
00:18:01judges currently elected by the Sejm, and you know that
00:18:04well, I know it, and everyone knows it...
00:18:37what kind of world we live in, you are trying to appropriate what in democratic
00:18:40countries should always be a neutral, apolitical
00:18:44space, for at least a dozen or so years, either for
00:18:47Law and Justice, or now for the ruling option. Well,
00:18:51everyone knows perfectly well that at this moment, this appointment
00:18:54of Mr. Berek is nothing other than placing
00:18:58another politician, but from the other side. So first Law and
00:19:02Justice did nothing to also politicize, even
00:19:06the judiciary and the Constitutional Tribunal in 2015, as
00:19:09the professor himself
00:19:13just said, and for 8 years it continued and still
00:19:16continues, and now you want to, as a lifebuoy,
00:19:19choose other politicians
00:19:22to, according to your wishes, make
00:19:26decisions, and that's unfortunately how it looks. Well, Mr. Berek, editor, is no
00:19:30one else but a politician, he was responsible for the policy
00:19:33of this government, what's
00:19:52more, one about whom time has shown that he is invalid
00:19:56and unnecessary, time has shown that Poland is going on without this
00:19:59tribunal, and it has already been shown to be unnecessary,
00:20:03although I don't fully agree, because the MP also spoke about these
00:20:07simply human matters, we often have the impression that this Constitutional
00:20:11Tribunal is unnecessary, but in such cases, as the MP
00:20:14described, it is needed, there decisions should be made
00:20:17that are favorable to citizens,
00:20:21not politicians. And that's why we need to draw such a thick
00:20:24line through this justice system in general, and especially through the Constitutional Tribunal, and make
00:20:27decisions across political divides. We have been talking about a constitutional
00:20:31reset for several years as the Confederation, and we are
00:20:34speaking and appealing to
00:20:38all sides of the political scene, but there
00:20:42is no will. Yesterday, for example, in the program MP Szczepkowski
00:20:45admitted that finally
00:20:49at least they, as this new entity and splinter of Law and
00:20:52Justice, are in favor of it. From the side of Law and Justice, we do not
00:20:55hear such specifics. We invited all parliamentary
00:20:59clubs to sit down at this table in the Sejm, at such
00:21:03an independent table, and finally make decisions that some
00:21:06sometimes talk about, but there is no political
00:21:08will.
00:21:12The President's consent must be there.
00:21:16I want to ask Professor Karski, Professor, don't you think?
00:21:24Don't you think, Professor, that the President's
00:21:27actions are, however, a kind of usurpation,
00:21:31because he gave this situation such a form
00:21:34as if in Poland the president elected members of the Constitutional Tribunal, and that
00:21:38is not the case. I said, the constitution must
00:21:41be read holistically, and the provision stating
00:21:45that the Sejm
00:21:47elects judges.
00:21:58which obliges Parliament to issue a law defining the status of judges and the organization of the tribunal
00:22:02under which law there is
00:22:05the institution of oath-taking, which in the constitution, whose
00:22:08constitutionality was confirmed by the Constitutional Tribunal
00:22:11under President Żpliński, and finally the constitutional provision
00:22:15that says that the president is the guardian of the observance of
00:22:18the constitution, he makes an assessment of the situation,
00:22:22he makes decisions that are to
00:22:24ensure,
00:22:29he gave himself the right to shape this composition. The constitution gave
00:22:32him this right in Article
00:22:36197 and saying that the organization of the tribunal
00:22:39is defined by law and in the constitutional
00:22:42provision saying that the president is
00:22:45the guardian of the observance of the constitution, the implementation of its
00:22:49provisions, the constitution is broken when the Sejm elects. No,
00:22:52absolutely, the constitution is not broken. However, we are dealing
00:22:56with a situation in which the Sejm makes the election,
00:22:59and such a person at that moment becomes a judge
00:23:03elect, but at the moment of taking the oath, and this
00:23:06is defined, defined by the law, whose
00:23:10constitutionality was confirmed by the tribunal in 2015,
00:23:13this law states that the oath is taken before
00:23:16the president, and that then...
00:23:50The President should guard the Constitution, so how can
00:23:53he guard the Constitution if he directly
00:23:56violates Article 94? Excuse me, I want
00:23:59to be an appeal body from the court's decision
00:24:02in this matter, because I can't even really explain what role
00:24:06he attributes to himself. The president
00:24:09listens to the oath, this oath is taken before
00:24:12the president, who represents the nation,
00:24:15because if we look at the law concerning the status
00:24:19of judges... of the Constitutional Tribunal, it clearly
00:24:22states that judges take
00:24:25an oath before the nation, and the president
00:24:28is the representative of this nation elected in general
00:24:31elections. Therefore, it's not that he
00:24:35accepts the oath, takes the oath, nothing of the sort,
00:24:38he listens to it on behalf of the nation, and a very important
00:24:42issue, a representative of the nation, they take an oath
00:24:45according to the law before the president, just to
00:24:49correct. He takes the oath before the nation, and the president is its
00:24:53representative. If you please refer to the provisions, and it's very
00:24:56important, it's all just a matter of interpretation, that's how they interpret
00:24:59it from the roots, just so it's your
00:25:03way. In the content of the oath,
00:25:06it says in the content of the judge's oath,
00:25:09in relation to the judge, that he takes
00:25:12an oath before the nation, he swears to the nation, that's what it says in
00:25:16the judge's oath. Very important, but let me just finish.
00:25:20Editor, briefly, remember that a judge must take
00:25:23an oath within 30 days. Now imagine
00:25:27a situation where these judges did not take the oath. What would Professor
00:25:31Karski be shouting today? Well, they didn't take
00:25:34the oath. The president has no deadline for accepting this
00:25:37oath, no, because the court already in 2000, in the case of
00:25:41K34/15, stated that it should
00:25:44happen immediately, and we all know what
00:25:47immediately means, which is without.
00:26:06powers, being able to decide whether he accepts this oath or not. To be
00:26:10clear, I believe that the president should,
00:26:13should accept the oath from all
00:26:17elected judges by the Sejm, with the exception of
00:26:20Mr. Maciej
00:26:23Berek. It needs to be clarified
00:26:26whether he meets these formal conditions, but
00:26:30the others, well, if he meets them, then also. Absolutely, I also
00:26:33have no objections to the competence of Minister
00:26:36Berek, because I think all politicians,
00:26:40and also people cooperating with Mr.
00:26:43Berek, consider Mr. Berek to be a competent person. However, it's about formal
00:26:46issues, also regulations, the constitution, etc., which
00:26:50he should meet. Well, for now we have a split vote here, as
00:26:53often happens. Does Minister Berek have this experience
00:26:57as a legal advisor or not? That needs to be clarified. After clarification, I believe the
00:27:01president,
00:27:10Can the police enter the Constitutional Tribunal? I would say that in Polish
00:27:13history, this would not be an isolated act. It
00:27:17reminds me of the Partition Sejm,
00:27:21the Grodno Sejm, when
00:27:24the constitutional, well, in today's understanding of the word, organ
00:27:27of the Republic made the decision to ratify
00:27:31the third partition of Poland.
00:28:02one thing, and the other is that the MP
00:28:05asked about Mr. Maciej Berek, about that formal condition.
00:28:09Yes, it is only that I raised doubts. Well, I'm answering you,
00:28:13he is a legal advisor listed on the list of legal
00:28:16advisors, and according to the article of the law on legal advisors, he can
00:28:20practice his profession in various ways, including
00:28:23by providing legal advice under an employment contract, and this
00:28:27he did, and such experience.
00:28:31czynił i takie doświadczenie.
00:29:32then the oath was accepted a few days after it was taken. I simply want to ask.
00:29:35Good evening, Krzysztof Radowiecki, "New Generation" youth association. I have
00:29:39a question for the MP.
00:29:41As we can clearly see, the Confederation and Law and Justice strongly
00:29:45criticize the election of Maciej Berek. I have a question for you: is this their
00:29:49peculiar attempt to uphold the independence
00:29:52of the tribunal, or rather
00:29:55to maintain the political status quo
00:29:58they built over 8 years?
00:30:01in such a direction as to repair
00:30:39you see, what we see
00:30:42regarding the Constitutional Tribunal, don't you regret that
00:30:46you, as the then ruling Law and Justice,
00:30:49introduced, among others, your people into the Constitutional Tribunal
00:30:53in such a way that unfortunately most Poles lost faith in
00:30:57an institution that for many years was a bastion of independence,
00:31:01and was also a pillar for
00:31:04many Poles in their daily lives? Thank you. You are trying
00:31:08to do the same thing now, you are no different.
00:31:10Of course, I can
00:31:12answer.
00:31:23The standard is that
00:31:25the people elected to the tribunal are prominent
00:31:29lawyers, but also , well, beside them, prominent lawyers,
00:31:32also people who were
00:31:36previously politicians, this does not have to be mutually
00:31:39exclusive.
00:31:41We elected people who met the formal criteria,
00:31:45who were prominent lawyers. You sometimes
00:31:49have comments about
00:31:51Mrs.
00:31:53Krystyna Pawłowicz, who was an MP before being a judge, who is a distinguished specialist in
00:31:57public law. public law.
00:32:00economic, author of textbooks in this
00:32:03field, students highly praised her classes,
00:32:06we say the same about Maciej
00:32:23is 40 years old, he was brought to life in
00:32:261982, he began his work 4 years
00:32:30later for the first time in the history
00:32:33of this constitutional body, a constitutional
00:32:36minister was appointed to its composition, he was no
00:32:39longer a student
00:32:43resigned, well, MP. of those
00:33:21who caused this
00:33:35I think the most important thing
00:33:40track, that is, after this
00:33:43catastrophe, which was caused by... Civic Platform in
00:33:462015 we should take
00:33:50actions that will lead to
00:33:53the healing of the tribunal, however, actions
00:33:56taken now by the current rulers do
00:34:00not lead to this, they deepen disputes
00:34:04and the tribunal should be a body enjoying the trust of all
00:34:07Poles, it should also enjoy
00:34:10the trust of all of us as
00:34:13politicians as well, after all, it is the Sejm that elects the judges of the Constitutional
00:34:17Tribunal, and finally there is Mr. President, so Mr.
00:34:20President, as we have already established, as we know,
00:34:24accepts, accepts the oath taken
00:34:28before him in a situation when
00:34:30his duty arising from the Constitution of laws
00:34:34is updated, if the Sejm correctly
00:34:37elects a person who is even called
00:34:40not a judge, but a person elected to the office of judge,
00:34:44then he will take the oath and at that moment the employment relationship
00:34:47of a Constitutional Tribunal judge
00:34:50is established, this formula under Article
00:34:54197 of the Constitution was adopted in the Act on
00:34:57the status of Constitutional Tribunal judges,
00:35:01and its correctness and constitutionality were confirmed by the Constitutional
00:35:04Tribunal in
00:35:11body on the screen, this is the moment of retrieving a Russian drone.
00:35:15which fell near Jarosławiec, this is precisely the moment when Polish services
00:35:18flew across the whole of Poland, unnoticed, fell into the water,
00:35:22maybe it was washed ashore and then our brave
00:35:24services described it, there was also such
00:35:28a case near Bydgoszcz, but that was a few years ago, but how does Mr.
00:35:30Professor,
00:35:34well, but let's leave the drone, there will be time to deal with it, perhaps next
00:35:37week, I wanted to ask you and Mr. Professor also,
00:35:41do you not have the impression that it has reached such a point where it is...
00:35:45even if there is a spectacular change of
00:35:48power, and the tribunal is staffed
00:35:50earlier, then the new government will not respect it anyway, but that's
00:35:54why I say that we need to reach an agreement, MP Pejo talks about a constitutional
00:35:58reset, I'm talking about a consensus in this
00:36:01regard, that's what it's supposed to be about, this reset,
00:36:04meaning we are generally talking about the same thing at this moment, we just call
00:36:08it differently, why didn't you accept the invitation to discuss a constitutional
00:36:11reset, the answer is there, the answer is there.
00:36:42and an example of this is the fact that President Karol
00:36:46Nawrocki did not sign any ambassadorial nomination, you know, this
00:36:49is a disgrace, a disgrace, because for example, he did not sign an ambassadorial
00:36:53nomination, he did not sign it for our
00:36:56diplomat, he is at an advanced military post in
00:36:59Kyiv, who was in Afghanistan, who has the rank
00:37:02of colonel, and he did not sign this nomination for him, tell me,
00:37:06why? for the same reason that he will not accept the oath
00:37:10of judges, because it is politically convenient for him, and this
00:37:13ambassador now in bombarded Kyiv represents the Majesty of the Republic
00:37:16of Poland, and cannot wait for President Nawrocki's signature. Sir.
00:37:20You
00:37:24threw out, recalled from his post the ambassador
00:37:28who, in the first days
00:37:31of the full-scale attack on Ukraine, was the only
00:37:34member of the diplomatic corps who remained in Kyiv, it was on him
00:37:37that bombs fell, this
00:37:50it is possible
00:37:52to reach an agreement,
00:37:54if it is possible to reach an agreement throughout this program. Mr.
00:37:58Karski blamed those in power today,
00:38:01in 2015 we elected two
00:38:05additional
00:38:09in 2015
00:38:15so I can finish, this is invented
00:38:19and implemented so that the Constitutional
00:38:22Tribunal is a tool, we don't like the law, we vote
00:38:26against it. What does the President do? He either submits
00:38:30a veto that does not pass because we do not have a majority, or he refers it to
00:38:33the Constitutional Tribunal, where such a composition is selected that
00:38:37states, yes, it is inconsistent with the Constitution, you do not need the tribunal for the same
00:38:41purpose, of course, no, you don't, Mr.
00:38:44MP, no, exactly,
00:38:47but please, please let me finish, no, precisely because over these years
00:38:50we have come to such a conviction and we say your tribunal
00:38:54or our tribunal, that is the worst. before
00:39:27time, the whole point is that the Constitutional
00:39:31Tribunal must be an independent body,
00:39:35judges must be independent, the fact that
00:39:38someone was once a politician, the fact that they held
00:39:42a specific position, that's one thing, but the other is their character
00:39:46traits that are supposed to prove that even if everything falls apart
00:39:49and burns, the judge will issue a ruling that they deem
00:39:52appropriate, not one that changes the composition
00:39:56of the panel before it is issued. being
00:40:07in a crowd of hundreds of thousands of Poles to a demonstration in defense
00:40:11of the tribunal? No, I'm not going, because it will be another such political farce, you could
00:40:14say, and excellently, hundreds of thousands of Poles are not a political farce, we don't
00:40:18know if it's hundreds of thousands, of course, Law and Justice announces this,
00:40:22I don't think so, because Poles are also tired of these demonstrations. but they are also
00:40:26tired of such pushing and such political ping-pong that you are
00:40:29playing, maybe Poles don't want this tribunal at all,
00:40:33even editor, you have to explain,
00:40:36really, what it's about for politicians,
00:40:39and that's what it's about, to appropriate this constitutional tribunal, and I think that
00:40:43here, editor, your role is huge, in the sense of the media, the so-called fourth
00:40:46power, that you would concretely criticize both sides, it's not about
00:40:50whether it's PiS or Platforma, but those who act this way with
00:40:53Poles, simply make people idiots.
00:40:59we, 97% believe that the president should
00:41:02swear in all three, that no, on platform X, 52,
00:41:0552% say
00:41:08yes, 48% say no, so in both cases
00:41:12the majority of those who chose to participate in this survey believe
00:41:16that the head of state should swear in
00:41:19everyone. The most important conclusion of this meeting, Mr. President
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