Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00I'm wondering what question to start with, because so-called so much is happening social reasons, however,
00:00:03politically, and I know from experience that you are very
00:00:07conservative and
00:00:10try to answer very diplomatically, especially for a
00:00:13politician, because I guess I can call you a politician, so
00:00:17maybe after all, when
00:00:19will the Constitutional Tribunal, in your opinion, start functioning as it
00:00:22should?
00:00:25I think that awaits us in the coming
00:00:28months. That we are somewhere approaching this breakthrough, which
00:00:32is related to the election of eight judges by the Sejm
00:00:36of the Republic of Poland, and perhaps to the fact that, however,
00:00:39this moment is brewing
00:00:42of admitting to adjudicate persons
00:00:45who were elected but
00:00:49are questioned by the President, and I think that there may also be such
00:00:52a peculiar situation when some of the judges elected
00:00:55earlier, i.e., still during
00:00:59the PiS era, simply... decide that they no longer want to
00:01:02work and adjudicate in this tribunal, which is led in such a way by Bogdan
00:01:05Święczkowski. And can the chairman, the head
00:01:09of the Constitutional Tribunal, be detained? Well,
00:01:12considering that the prosecution has taken up the case
00:01:16of precisely not allowing
00:01:19reminding that our law, I remember these the judges we are talking about to work, well, the Minister
00:01:22of Justice seems to be quite desperate
00:01:25in wanting to take any actions on this matter. I don't
00:01:29know if... detention must be necessary
00:01:32immediately, however, I think that
00:01:35actions regarding the lifting of immunity in connection with the
00:01:39Pegasus case may be repeated, because
00:01:42let's recall that this motion was submitted about, well,
00:01:46almost a year ago, however, in my opinion, it
00:01:48was not properly and duly examined by the general assembly,
00:01:52I think that somewhere in the background there is also the matter of Hermes, i.e., this
00:01:56software purchased by the prosecutor.
00:02:07And finally, well, this situation of not allowing judges to adjudicate and preventing legally elected judges can also
00:02:11lead to some criminal consequences. In a moment
00:02:14it will be three years since the October elections of 2023,
00:02:18to be honest, to be honest, what about
00:02:22our rule of law and will
00:02:26this year change anything, since three years were not enough, in your opinion? I think that each subsequent
00:02:30week or month brings changes when it comes
00:02:33to actually restoring the rule of law,
00:02:36repairing the functioning of our state, I think that the way
00:02:40courts and prosecutor's offices operate
00:02:44in no way, that is,
00:02:47it is a completely different
00:02:49quality than it was in
00:02:512023, and I think that this year will be used, for example, we will start
00:02:54to feel, in my opinion, an acceleration of court proceedings, because many
00:02:57things have been achieved in this area. This is very important for citizens, that they not only have
00:03:01an independent judiciary, but also better courts,
00:03:04however, I think that regarding some issues, we will still
00:03:08be in a big dispute, I think that especially the status
00:03:11of judges, that is, what needs to be
00:03:14done with the so-called neo-judges, judges appointed
00:03:17after 2018,
00:03:21this will still be such
00:03:24an Achilles' heel of the functioning of our judiciary, with
00:03:28us today journalists who...
00:04:00the sunset clause, when it comes to assistance for people from
00:04:03Ukraine, what are its consequences, including depriving
00:04:06uninsured people from
00:04:09Ukraine of health insurance, and the second
00:04:13thing, which is somewhat related, somewhat not,
00:04:16how do you assess today the suspension of the right
00:04:20to apply for asylum, for international protection at the
00:04:23Polish-Belarusian border,
00:04:27I think that both laws... are
00:04:30a consequence of very serious political disputes that
00:04:34we have,
00:04:36it seems to me that regarding the first law, the sunset law, I think
00:04:40that we should go back and consider whether
00:04:43it actually caused more negative consequences
00:04:46than benefits, however,
00:04:49of course, the law concerning this
00:04:53temporary suspension of the right to apply for asylum, it was
00:04:56strictly related to bringing about... the cessation
00:05:00of this migration route, which was artificially created
00:05:03by Putin and Lukashenka, the Prime Minister announced
00:05:07his intention from the beginning, and I think that if we look from a certain
00:05:10perspective, then regardless of these... very serious
00:05:14consequences, also doubts from the point of view of human rights, this migration
00:05:18route, well, practically ceased to exist
00:05:21and does not have such
00:05:25consequences also for our sense
00:05:28of implementing migration policy, so if so, shouldn't
00:05:32we then return to the state before this law,
00:05:36since it fulfilled its task in your
00:05:39opinion, meaning should it be unsuspended? It basically...
00:05:42assumes that this period is to be
00:05:45extended every time, perhaps one should
00:05:49consider it, taking into account whether
00:05:53this border closure is effective.
00:05:56It seems to me that what is also important, and what may have some influence on the
00:06:00debate, is that we are waiting for the ruling of the European Court of Human
00:06:03Rights in Strasbourg, here this case
00:06:07has been pending for many years,
00:06:10recently the Chisinau Declaration was adopted within
00:06:14the framework of the Council of Europe system, and I think that what the tribunal says, because
00:06:18this does not only concern us, it also concerns other countries, Lithuania,
00:06:21Estonia, Latvia, Finland, I think it will
00:06:24also have significant importance from the point of view of shaping European
00:06:28policy, and it also seems to me that it is worth
00:06:31debates very well, it was largely modeled on Finnish solutions,
00:06:35Finland adopted such solutions
00:06:38a long time ago. Marzana Taborolszewska. As the
00:06:42Commissioner for Human Rights, well, it will be
00:06:4510, almost 11 years, since you organized round
00:06:49tables aimed at counteracting
00:06:52hate speech, what do you think now, 10
00:06:56years later, what is happening, what is being said, who
00:07:00is it affecting, what do you
00:07:02think? I think
00:07:05that in its own way, of course,
00:07:09I see how we have a lot of cases of hate speech.
00:07:13especially towards Ukrainians,
00:07:16there was even such a very interesting interview
00:07:19by editor Jacek Żakowski on Tok FM with a person who
00:07:23represents and is associated with the organization Stand With Ukraine, and
00:07:26I think that in its own way it is sad, terrifying, that this
00:07:30person said, a lawyer, that she basically has several
00:07:34reports every day of various cases of hate speech or
00:07:37violence due to hatred, what comforts me
00:07:41is that the Polish state continues to
00:07:44react, meaning if we see these various videos on the internet, if
00:07:48we report these cases, we see the activity
00:07:50of the police, I think that these
00:07:53teams of prosecutors that were appointed
00:07:56back in my time are working very well, Minister Żurek
00:08:00strengthened the impact, however, I think that in fact from a
00:08:04practical point of view, what is the greatest
00:08:07harm to this issue is the vetoing
00:08:10of the law implementing the Digital Services Act. To
00:08:19give this
00:08:23topic to corporations, because let's note that when it comes to
00:08:26big tech, it's not just about allowing
00:08:30the spread of hate speech, but also deep fakes, and I think
00:08:34it's a good thing that Rafał Brzoska started fighting so fiercely,
00:08:38which also met with a good reaction from the Polish government, well,
00:08:40somewhere I have the impression that solutions in a situation where
00:08:44unfortunately this presidential
00:08:46veto appeared.
00:08:50Senator, will you actually use
00:08:54an argument that will confirm our belief that Maciej Berek should
00:08:58be in the Constitutional Tribunal, because I think
00:09:00you will defend this candidacy, I would be surprised if
00:09:04you said something contrary, and yet
00:09:07it must be admitted that this is something completely against what
00:09:11the Civic Coalition, the ruling coalition, promised
00:09:14before the 2023 elections: depoliticization of the tribunal, depoliticization
00:09:17of all institutions of justice. I spoke about this
00:09:21recently and I think I can repeat what
00:09:24I think,
00:09:27I simply have mixed feelings, because of course I am aware of this law, which was
00:09:31passed in 2024, I am
00:09:33aware that there was a four-year
00:09:37grace period provided, but on the other
00:09:40hand, when... of the Sejm,
00:09:47I emphasize the Sejm, not the Senate, was made, and Judge Maciej
00:09:51Berek was elected to serve this function, we will probably have this
00:09:55dispute with the President now, but I think that in the end, even
00:09:57if the President blocks the taking
00:10:01of this oath, Maciej Berek will probably be in the same situation as those
00:10:05four judges
00:10:08who took this oath before the President, but
00:10:11unfortunately not in the presence of the President, so probably
00:10:14somewhere in the Sejm's Column Hall,
00:10:18by submitting an appropriate statement to the filing office, but
00:10:21coming back to Maciej Berek, I think if we look.
00:10:55justice, but I think that what connects these people
00:10:59is hard work and building this credit of trust, and I think
00:11:03that Maciej Berek, taking into account his legal competencies, absolutely
00:11:06extraordinary, I think he will serve the homeland well.
00:11:10Mikołaj Pietraszewski, Radio Z, if you had to name your greatest
00:11:13achievement and your greatest failure as Minister of Justice,
00:11:17because it cannot be denied that your mission was nevertheless stopped, well,
00:11:21you probably expected to be in that position for longer than a year and a half, so
00:11:24what? What do you truly consider
00:11:27a success, and what do you truly consider your failure in that
00:11:30position? I think that when it comes to
00:11:34successes, I did a lot
00:11:37at the very beginning to unblock funds from the National
00:11:40Recovery Plan and to convince the European Commission to
00:11:44make this decision, it was not simple and obvious at all,
00:11:48something that I think we are even feeling very
00:11:51strongly now is joining the European Prosecutor's Office.
00:11:55That is, when I see how the prosecutor's office operates, how
00:11:58consistent it is, what proceedings it conducts, and also how it shows in a certain sense what
00:12:02the independence of the European Prosecutor's Office
00:12:06can entail, I feel a great sense
00:12:09of satisfaction, especially since thanks to this
00:12:12we function quite efficiently in this
00:12:16system of European circulation and EU law. I will also say there was one
00:12:19moment where I was even quite
00:12:21moved, right after the election
00:12:25night, when Peter Magyar
00:12:27spoke,
00:12:29his great speech, before he started talking about what
00:12:33he would do with the president, the Supreme
00:12:35Court, the Constitutional Court
00:12:38and the Prosecutor
00:12:41General of Hungary, he said that he would join the European Prosecutor's
00:12:45Office, which actually happened within a few weeks, and
00:12:49I think that somewhere this is a bit of an effect of learning lessons from
00:12:52what happened in Poland, however, as for... failure,
00:12:56I think, or
00:12:58rather, I won't beat myself up, that, I don't know, accountability didn't go
00:13:02as it should, but perhaps I explained it a little poorly or
00:13:05insufficiently, perhaps
00:13:07I
00:13:10didn't manage to convince public opinion that it simply has to go
00:13:13at such a pace, because otherwise it's not possible for
00:13:17accountability to simply be in accordance with the law and procedure, and I think
00:13:20that perhaps somewhere at this level
00:13:24of... communication and telling about these
00:13:27matters, something was missing, I even remember that when the
00:13:31moment of summaries came and I presented a whole list
00:13:34of cases, where they are, at what stage, and so on, many people said, "Well, we didn't
00:13:38know about that," so perhaps somewhere that was missing. You don't have,
00:13:42excuse me for interrupting, that feeling that the entire
00:13:45government has a communication problem? I think it's a bit of blaming
00:13:49that communication failed, well yes, but I'm
00:13:53talking about myself, I know, I know.
00:13:56for which I was responsible in the ministry and the prosecutor's office, I think
00:13:59that what is missing in government communication is
00:14:03really a very hard reach
00:14:06to different social groups with the things that are
00:14:09being achieved, well, such an example from the last
00:14:12few days, the law
00:14:15implementing the Artificial Intelligence
00:14:17Act just came into force, a powerful law,
00:14:21fundamental for all of us, for the market,
00:14:24for... the economy, what's more, the Sejm
00:14:27just elected a person who will serve on this special committee, which will
00:14:31deal with supervising how these artificial intelligence
00:14:35systems work, and I have the impression that this is a topic that is of interest to a really very
00:14:39minimal group, and that there isn't some kind of extended
00:14:43campaign about what this is for our citizens, why it
00:14:47is needed, of course Minister Gawkowski, Prime Minister Gawkowski will do his part, but I have the impression that
00:14:51it is more departmental than
00:14:53general, and I think that many such topics exist where
00:14:56the government perhaps focuses too much on
00:15:00such big issues that are catchy, that are
00:15:02trending on social media, and perhaps does
00:15:06not notice many other smaller topics that
00:15:10also matter from the point of view of improving citizens' lives.
00:15:13Jakub Majmurek, Political Critique, a bit of a follow-up question to this
00:15:17thread, here it was a question to you about your biggest
00:15:20defeat, maybe I'll ask about a similar thing a bit differently, what would you do
00:15:24today, having the knowledge you have today, differently during this
00:15:27term of yours, or for example, would you seek a compromise with
00:15:31President Duda regarding addressing certain issues through legislation,
00:15:34for example related to such
00:15:38institutions as the Supreme Court, the National Council of the Judiciary, the Constitutional Tribunal,
00:15:42or would you proceed, if you were to become
00:15:46Minister of Justice again in 2023, knowing
00:15:49what you know, exactly the same? Well, each of us is of course richer in
00:15:53experience and perspective on our
00:15:57reality from the point of view of what worked, what didn't
00:16:00work
00:16:02and what could have been the consequences of our actions, right, so I
00:16:06won't say that one is wiser after the event,
00:16:09but it seems to me that what the editor said is very important
00:16:13in the context of this compromise with
00:16:15the President, there was such a moment in April-May
00:16:182024, what to do with the National Council of the Judiciary, who
00:16:22should, who could be a candidate for the National Council of the Judiciary, even in
00:16:25the Senate we introduced such a Senate amendment, somewhat guided
00:16:28by the opinion of the Venice Commission,
00:16:31however, what was very characteristic, and perhaps that was my
00:16:35mistake, maybe I should have stood my ground to... strive for it, but
00:16:38I remember the gigantic
00:16:40opposition
00:16:42of civil society, judges'
00:16:45associations, many people who generally went with the
00:16:48narrative, "we didn't demonstrate for this, so we're not going to compromise
00:16:52now," at some point a somewhat
00:16:55different approach was adopted, I also
00:16:59lived with this approach, and perhaps
00:17:01that was the mistake, that we are waiting for the presidential
00:17:05elections and that the presidential elections will give us
00:17:15laws that will weigh various goods, especially here it concerned
00:17:19either the laws on the National Council of the Judiciary, or the law
00:17:22on the Supreme Court or the status of judges, and then unfortunately
00:17:25a big flop, June 1st, lost presidential
00:17:29elections, and here returning to the editor's question, well, this is one of
00:17:32the reasons why the restoration of the rule of law is not going so
00:17:35great, well, because it's hard to do everything
00:17:39you want when you can't pass laws so that they
00:17:42are binding, because you can't even reject a presidential
00:17:46veto, or also when I don't even mention
00:17:50the Hungarian situation, when you can change the constitution, right, well, Hungarians
00:17:53are really in a very comfortable situation in this regard.
00:17:57Michał Tomasik, Polityka weekly, I would love to ask you about the Constitutional
00:18:00Tribunal and that whole Pandora's box, but I would like
00:18:03to establish who
00:18:06is speaking to us... is Adam Bodnar still
00:18:10a lawyer, a professor of law, a former
00:18:14Commissioner for Human Rights, and a former president of the Helsinki Foundation for Human
00:18:17Rights, or is he already a full-blooded politician,
00:18:21has he become a politician, because I want to understand what you will
00:18:24tell me? No, well, editor, I
00:18:26made a conscious decision in mid-
00:18:292023 to run in the parliamentary
00:18:32elections.
00:18:34to run and associate myself
00:18:37with one of the political forces,
00:18:40and I became, I was elected to
00:18:44parliament and I am associated with the parliamentary club of the Civic
00:18:47Coalition, and what's more, I served
00:18:51as minister
00:18:53in a
00:18:57government that is, by nature, political, and
00:19:01I neither deny nor am ashamed of it, and I simply
00:19:04carry out my tasks, which are political tasks. And legal knowledge
00:19:08I think helps me in solving various things and perhaps also
00:19:12drawing attention to various problems that are somewhat unnoticed. Does
00:19:15the politician Adam Bodnar still believe that, for example,
00:19:19the Constitutional Tribunal can be repaired with a scalpel, or is he already on the side
00:19:23that wants to storm it,
00:19:26just to manage to change something? I still
00:19:30believe it is possible, that it is possible
00:19:33to repair it with a scalpel, and I think that those
00:19:37people who have been elected to the tribunal are aware of this
00:19:41and will also try to act in such a way
00:19:44that this tribunal is repaired in this way. And
00:19:48I will ask again, because a guest from two
00:19:52weeks ago in this studio, Bartosz
00:19:54Rurkiewicz, although not in this program, but in another, said that
00:19:58he would like Maciej Berek to kick
00:20:00down the doors of the Constitutional Tribunal and really put
00:20:04things in order there. Does your legal heart,
00:20:08your legal foundations not resonate with that
00:20:11a little, when you hear that, do you identify with such a view?
00:20:14I believe that such statements are unfortunate,
00:20:18I believe that they hinder
00:20:21more than they help, I think that those people who
00:20:24are elected to judges' positions are well
00:20:27aware of the responsibility that rests upon them and what kind of tribunal
00:20:30they would like to work in and how this tribunal should
00:20:34serve citizens, and I think that such... what's
00:20:37more, I was also recently asked about various strategies,
00:20:41what to do with the tribunal, how to resolve it, I believe that quite the opposite, that is,
00:20:45politicians should actually limit themselves at this moment, that is, they should trust that these
00:20:49people who received a mandate,
00:20:52know perfectly well what they have to do and will create
00:20:56strategies that will actually serve to repair
00:20:58the functioning of the tribunal and regain public
00:21:02trust. Marcin Knężelok, TVP
00:21:06Info portal. Professor, I wanted to ask you as a human
00:21:10rights defender, because I think you still remain one. Do
00:21:13you feel good in a party that, at the European level, I asked
00:21:17Bartosz Rurkiewicz the same question recently. A party
00:21:20that at the European level aligns with the far-right, with people
00:21:24who have little in common with human
00:21:27rights, or does
00:21:30that suit you, because in 2027
00:21:34we have elections in almost all the most
00:21:37important countries in Europe, and they are going to, well,
00:21:40completely destroy the rule of law also in Poland,
00:21:44at the same time it is clear that the EPP is aligning
00:21:46in all possible ways, at the same time from...
00:21:56on a daily basis in the context of the functioning of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council
00:22:00of Europe, because I am
00:22:02a member of this Polish delegation from the Senate since
00:22:05basically January, but actually I started working in
00:22:09March, my experience so far regarding
00:22:12functioning within the EPP, well, it's about dealing jointly and I think
00:22:16in agreement with these topics that are important to me, and here I never had
00:22:20any sense of dissonance in the Parliamentary Assembly, and what's more,
00:22:24these are even topics that, with regret I say this,
00:22:28Polish media are not particularly interested in, for example, sanctions against
00:22:31judges of the International Criminal Court, right,
00:22:34or issues
00:22:37related
00:22:40to this ruling against Osman Kavala,
00:22:43which is a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, i.e.
00:22:47of this imprisoned.
00:23:50even at the cost of legislative compromises, or should
00:23:53it rather follow a path that
00:23:56Donald Tusk once called "fighting democracy," meaning even going
00:23:59for broke, bypassing some loopholes in the law, despite
00:24:03everything to circumvent, for example, presidential
00:24:06vetoes? I think that the
00:24:09strategy that I also implemented,
00:24:13namely, to bring about real change in the functioning
00:24:16of institutions on the basis of existing
00:24:21laws, for example, in the case of the National Prosecutor, for example, but
00:24:24also the issue of changing the presidents of courts, I think
00:24:28this was very, very important, or solving the problem
00:24:32of this disciplinary responsibility, these mass disciplinary
00:24:35proceedings against judges, we don't remember it anymore, how
00:24:39judges were harassed for their activities, and yet it was possible to
00:24:43curb this in 2024,
00:24:45and then to solve the problem of those three famous gentlemen Schab,
00:24:49Radzik. Lasota, I started it, Waldemar Żurek, Minister
00:24:52Żurek finished it, it seems to
00:24:55me that this is a strategy that should be continued, and it seems to me that what's more, this
00:24:59year there is one very big success, a very tangible,
00:25:03concrete success, accepted by, I think, the legal
00:25:06communities, political ones, it's difficult in
00:25:09conditions of polarization, but I think it will also be accepted by international
00:25:13communities, namely the repair of the functioning of the National Council
00:25:16of the Judiciary, however, please note that this happened on
00:25:19the basis of the existing law after both Duda
00:25:22and President Duda and President Nawrocki vetoed
00:25:26the laws, however, it happened in such a way that judges were given
00:25:30a voice, who would you like to see as your representatives in the National
00:25:33Council of the Judiciary, and the National Council of the Judiciary is working,
00:25:37it conducts competitions for vacant judicial positions,
00:25:41such a situation, or this type of
00:25:45institutional repair, also partly due to the passage of time, may have to
00:25:48wait.
00:25:51However, I think that what awaits us sooner or
00:25:54later, I think it will happen after
00:25:57the elections, is the issue of the status of judges, because, please
00:26:01note, we have even if
00:26:04we were to somehow avoid this problem, even if we were to
00:26:08acknowledge that, after all, we pass laws, and the president
00:26:11vetoes these laws, it is still, from the point of view of EU law and the
00:26:15standards of the Strasbourg court, possible to question the judgments in
00:26:19individual cases by judges appointed after
00:26:222018. Well, this is something that affects the stability of the legal
00:26:26system, and this will have to be resolved at some point
00:26:29in some way, perhaps through... some talks
00:26:33with the president, but I doubt whether this will happen before the presidential
00:26:37elections. I imagine that it is possible. I think
00:26:40so. And wouldn't it have been better to reach
00:26:43for a solution like transitional justice in
00:26:462023, early 2024? The whole problem would have been
00:26:50over. Transitional justice sounds
00:26:53beautiful and there are many books and textbooks
00:26:57written on this topic, but the question is what are we talking about? Are we talking
00:27:00about repairing institutions, or are we talking about the issue of responsibility
00:27:04for various violations
00:27:06of the law when we talk about the atomic version then, that we simply had to
00:27:10go in, go in hard with the support of
00:27:13renowned foreign institutions with authority
00:27:17and simply well, solve this problem,
00:27:20clean up this Augean stable with a combine harvester.
00:27:24Okay, that sounds beautiful, Mr. Editor, but somehow I don't
00:27:28remember anyone pointing out how to
00:27:31actually do it.
00:27:33at the same time, not to escalate violence in our public life, i.e., not to
00:27:36engage the apparatus
00:27:39of power and at the same time ensure that this
00:27:43change is maintained. A simple example, one thing that came
00:27:46up in the debate is the National Council of the Judiciary, right, that
00:27:50you should go in, close it, suspend it, right,
00:27:53put a padlock on it and completely ban its activities, but
00:27:56I said to that argument, well, what will stop those
00:27:59judges who sit on the National Council of the Judiciary, and other people
00:28:03from the KRS, from appearing the next day at the President's Chancellery and
00:28:07gathering there and continuing to act as the National Council of the Judiciary in
00:28:11a situation where the law is still in force? But do you think that PiS
00:28:14will be as delicate as you, if they regained power, as delicate as
00:28:18you, as your government? I don't know what PiS will do, I don't
00:28:21know what the ruling coalition will do, but I have always
00:28:25believed that this change, which concerns the rule of law, must
00:28:29be consistent, it must take place in the spirit of constitutional
00:28:34values, but it must also be carried out in such a way that it is actually
00:28:38feasible, and I will give you a concrete
00:28:40example: the first year we worked
00:28:44very intensively on this with Mr. Minister Mazur and with Judge
00:28:47Marta Koszychowska Warywoda, who was the director
00:28:51of the department of personnel and judicial organization, on changing presidents in
00:28:54courts. This was not an easy process at all, which means that we managed to change
00:28:58120 presidents and vice-presidents.
00:29:02in the courts, what was of great value to me was that in most
00:29:06cases, in over 90 percent, these changes were maintained in the courts,
00:29:10meaning that the judges accepted it and that we, as the public,
00:29:13stopped being interested in it at all, stopped discussing it,
00:29:15analyzing who is where, I don't
00:29:19know, in Rzeszów, Gdańsk or Poznań, as
00:29:22the president of the court. I believe that from the point of view of democratic values, that's what
00:29:26it should be about, that a change is made and that change simply
00:29:29holds, that there is no escalation that could...
00:29:51We are observing a rise of the far right
00:29:54virtually everywhere, I'm not saying anything new, I have a feeling that one of the defeats, one of the reasons for Rafał Trzaskowski's defeat, which was so
00:29:58painful for the ruling coalition,
00:30:00due to these
00:30:04reasons, was precisely that he stepped into those right-wing shoes, of course not the far
00:30:08right, but still towards the right wing.
00:30:12Don't you have the feeling that the Civic Coalition is still going
00:30:15in that direction, trying to
00:30:18somehow jump on that right-wing
00:30:21horse, observing the moods and observing,
00:30:25observing the polls, and isn't it the case that this is
00:30:29an absolutely unfavorable strategy for the Civic Coalition?
00:30:34"I think that certainly some themes, some
00:30:37actions may give that
00:30:41impression, however, I will
00:30:44still point out that
00:30:47at the same time there are several things that are from the entire, that are from the so-called
00:30:50leftist agenda, which are also very strongly and effectively
00:30:54implemented, what's more, abortion,
00:30:57for example, well, for example abortion,
00:31:01I believe that what we did
00:31:04together with Minister Leszczyna in
00:31:07September 2024, which means adopting
00:31:10the guidelines of the Minister of Health and the guidelines of the Prosecutor General in
00:31:14the matter of: accessibility of legal abortion in fact led
00:31:18to remedying the effects of the Constitutional Tribunal's
00:31:21ruling. According to statistics, we currently have even probably
00:31:25more legal abortions performed than before
00:31:28the ruling. I realize that this is not the fulfillment
00:31:32of electoral postulates, because they were broader both from the
00:31:35left and from the Civic
00:31:37Coalition. I am talking about abortion for
00:31:41the coalition has such
00:31:44rights, I understand, probably not much more will be achieved
00:31:47in this term, but let's take, for example,
00:31:50in my opinion, I know it was born with pain, but still,
00:31:54the execution of the judgment of the European Court of Justice in
00:31:58the case of the Mazovian Voivode, that is, the judgment of Messrs. Cupriak
00:32:01and Trojan, that is, unions, that is, recognizing
00:32:05same-sex marriages that were concluded outside the country,
00:32:09well, when I see Prime Minister Gawkowski today, who says,
00:32:12I saw such a graphic that... 328
00:32:15couples obtained transcripts, it wouldn't
00:32:18have happened if the government had not issued appropriate
00:32:21regulations, it was a green
00:32:24light, who knows if Zbigniew Ziobro didn't indirectly contribute
00:32:28to it, because there was a certain moment of temporal coincidence, when
00:32:31Zbigniew Ziobro appeared in the United States on the same day, the Prime Minister
00:32:35announced that we were still executing the judgment, but
00:32:38also, I don't know, the women on boards directive was implemented,
00:32:42we are implementing the directive concerning
00:33:02but during the time of PiS, one could not count on any discussion, so
00:33:05indeed
00:33:08this is a long way
00:33:10that we have come since when
00:33:14they were adopting
00:33:23something like that, or doesn't a citizen, looking at
00:33:26what Grzegorz Braun is doing, what the Border
00:33:29Guard movement is doing, and various other initiatives
00:33:33of Robert Bankiewicz, doesn't a citizen, looking at all this, get the feeling that
00:33:37the state is somewhat helpless in the face of all this? Well,
00:33:40we see subsequent actions by Grzegorz Braun, which, well, you don't need
00:33:44to have a doctorate in law to
00:33:47guess that they quite clearly
00:33:51break the law, sometimes we still hear about some subsequent
00:33:55votes in the European Parliament on the removal of some
00:33:58immunity from Grzegorz Braun in a specific case, and when his immunity is
00:34:02removed, he manages to break the law in four or
00:34:05several several more cases. Here I wanted to
00:34:09ask you if this is not also some problem, or how do
00:34:13you assess this problem as... a lawyer, also as a person who dealt
00:34:17with human rights, and also taking
00:34:20into account the realities of hybrid warfare, the realities of Russian
00:34:23information, does the state today have the tools
00:34:26to fight, for example, I don't know, actors who,
00:34:30instrumentally using freedom of speech, conduct Russian
00:34:34disinformation? I think
00:34:38that even this is my appeal to
00:34:41you,
00:34:44I have the impression that we lack real
00:34:47monitoring
00:34:50and close observation of the prosecutor's office, and also of
00:34:53the courts, regarding what is happening in these particular cases, because,
00:34:57indeed, such a media image that emerges is that
00:35:01in another case, some immunity was removed, right,
00:35:04but I honestly don't remember in recent
00:35:07weeks any decent
00:35:10court report in several
00:35:14media outlets, but one medium obviously
00:35:22Warsaw Praga, where Grzegorz Braun is criminally liable
00:35:26for these few acts, including the extinguishing of Hanukkah
00:35:30and other things, also
00:35:33tracking Dr. Szumowski, right, the destruction of that famous
00:35:36Christmas tree, a few acts, right, there is a chance
00:35:40that he will soon be sentenced by the court
00:35:43of first instance, he got. we managed to press charges in
00:35:47the case of the lady doctor from Oleśnica, in
00:35:50the case
00:35:52also
00:35:54of these situations related to the destruction of the LGBT exhibition in the
00:35:58Sejm, and as I understand it, the next stage will be all these cases
00:36:01concerning the Auschwitz lie. I mean,
00:36:04of course, I would like the prosecutor's office to act faster,
00:36:08I would like the courts, especially, to act very efficiently here, I realize
00:36:11that Grzegorz Braun exploits all the weaknesses
00:36:16of the legal system to achieve such an effect, but
00:36:19I cannot agree that the state here did
00:36:23nothing in these matters. And why so
00:36:27few indictments in the cases of PiS scandals eventually
00:36:30reached the courts? Of course, I expect that
00:36:33you do not have all the information on this subject, but what do you
00:36:37think, because you, as the Civic Coalition, the ruling coalition,
00:36:40announced a very strong, fast accountability, some voters supported
00:36:44you on October 15, 2023, that this accountability would be complete. At
00:36:48this moment, we have very few of these indictments, does that mean that the evidence
00:36:51was simply not strong enough to be able
00:36:54to send these cases to the courts?
00:36:57I think that if we actually look at all the cases,
00:37:01it will suddenly turn out that there are quite a lot
00:37:04of these cases. If we count all the waived
00:37:08immunities, it will be about 30
00:37:12people who were affected.
00:37:15What's more, we have people who were not covered by immunity protection, and
00:37:19have cases before the court, recently the trial of General
00:37:22Szymczyk, the former head of the Police
00:37:26Headquarters, began. For the grenade launcher case, he did not have
00:37:30immunity
00:37:31protection.
00:37:35Sir, you feel a lack, the fact is that there are too few, wait a moment,
00:37:38I think that recently, in my opinion, there was a
00:37:41very important case, which is very
00:37:44symbolic for those governments, and we generally had a very interesting coincidence,
00:37:48because there was an indictment already very
00:37:51concrete, sent three weeks ago to the court by
00:37:55the regional prosecutor's office in Warsaw, it was about... one and a half billion
00:37:58zlotys of oil, which
00:38:01was purchased, we now know, right, that it was
00:38:05purchased, not delivered in Venezuela, that is, the case of OTS,
00:38:08Switzerland. Now, please note, we returned to this case only because
00:38:12of that Financial Times article, but I remember perfectly well that when that indictment
00:38:15was sent, it lived in the media for half a day, right,
00:38:19why? Because journalists were then interested primarily in Zonda Crypto, Zonda
00:38:23Crypto was the most important, the most significant, and that case
00:38:27as...
00:38:42Let's remember that
00:38:45these matters turned out to be not so simple and obvious,
00:38:49but complicated,
00:38:52and the very case of the Justice Fund, after all, before the prosecutor's office
00:38:56formulated it, it was at least,
00:39:00I think, a year since the charges were filed,
00:39:02and Warsaw lawyers say that's quite
00:39:06fast for such normal operating standards given
00:39:09the volume of the case. So we have something like that, and
00:39:13of course, I don't hide it, and I think each of us with the naked
00:39:17eye can see that such political
00:39:20pressure, such heckling from Mr.
00:39:24Święczkowski or Ziobro, or indeed the entire right-wing, that... we won't
00:39:28forget about you, dear prosecutors, also has a chilling effect
00:39:32for some actions, however, I believe that in these difficult conditions, with
00:39:35certain limited personnel
00:39:38capabilities, in my opinion, Prosecutor Korneluk's team is doing everything
00:39:42it can to show great activity. Never in Polish history,
00:39:46after all, have we had accountability on such a scale, that is,
00:39:49if we compared it to any previous governments, we never had so many
00:39:53scandals, so many scandals at once, and just going back to
00:39:56that, we have one minute left, so a quick question, a quick
00:40:00answer, political pressure, do you really confirm such
00:40:04reports, that you and Mr. Żurek probably also
00:40:07encountered a certain blockade and a certain obstruction in
00:40:11the prosecutor's office from people who were still after Zbigniew Ziobro, people who feared
00:40:15Zbigniew Ziobro and Law and Justice, people who feared the return of PiS to
00:40:19power and revenge, that they simply slowed down some investigations, and some
00:40:22they didn't really deal with at all, don't you have the impression that there was still
00:40:26a certain kind of... a certain kind of buffer?
00:40:30I mean, I would rather
00:40:33put it this way, that prosecutors are
00:40:37very sensitive about their own professional
00:40:40status, they remember very well what
00:40:43happened in
00:40:462016 when there was a professional
00:40:50degradation
00:40:52of over 120 prosecutors, it
00:40:56was a decision
00:40:58with Święczkowski, and it seems to me that some of them
00:41:02may think in terms of, why should we now
00:41:05sacrifice our, our
00:41:08lives, our future, perhaps our retirement,
00:41:11that is, a decent pension, for
00:41:15some case whose political consequences may be such
00:41:18and such, and now if you see that there is quite
00:41:22a strong polarization in public life, especially if you see that, well,
00:41:26the presidential elections were won by Karol... Karol Nawrocki and that the right wing has
00:41:29a chance to return to power, then it seems to me that some
00:41:33prosecutors develop such cautious thinking. Of course,
00:41:36in some situations, it may also involve obstructive actions by
00:41:40people who are connected with
00:41:44Zbigniew Ziobro, but I think
00:41:47that the most important cases are not
00:41:50handled by these people. It seems to me that it's rather about the general
00:41:54atmosphere of the prosecutor's office. We have to finish, I know
00:41:57there are many questions, I haven't managed to ask
00:41:59any. No, at the end I'll ask, will you run in the
00:42:02elections? I would like to, and that is my goal for the next
00:42:05year, to deal even
00:42:09more strongly with the topic related to the rights of the Polish diaspora and the situation
00:42:12of Poles abroad, I'm even going to
00:42:15London soon for two such
00:42:19meetings, and I would like to renew my mandate, which is
00:42:22a Warsaw, senatorial mandate and the votes,
00:42:26the votes of Poles living outside the country. Adam Bodnar was with us,
00:42:29thank you very much, Mr. Minister, thank you also to you in the studio and in front of
00:42:33your televisions, have a good evening. See
00:42:35you.
00:42:59Entering another dimension, this is Santago for adrenaline
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00:44:44Violence is violence, it usually happens behind closed doors,
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