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00:00:41Good evening, Aleksandra Pawlicka, I invite you to the question of the day. Our guest is already
00:00:44in the studio, MP Aleksandra Leo,
00:00:48Center Union, spokeswoman for this party. Good evening, Ms.
00:00:51Editor. Today is the party convention and the presentation
00:00:54of the program, and we will certainly talk about that, but I would like to start with
00:00:58the topic of the day, which is... the so-called
00:01:01price list of President Nawrocki. The private
00:01:05Foundation for Development Strategy Center, according to reports from Radio Z and
00:01:08Newsweek, was supposed to offer paid meetings with the
00:01:12President. When you heard about it, did it outrage
00:01:15you, surprise you, or
00:01:18surprise you? Unfortunately, less and less. Outrage you? Of course it does. Well,
00:01:22I must admit, I have never encountered a situation where a meeting with the
00:01:25president or the president's entourage, the president's close entourage,
00:01:28well, there was basically
00:01:31a price list, a price list like a menu in a restaurant, because
00:01:35that's what it looks like from what was circulating
00:01:38in the media today. The question is what will happen in a day
00:01:42or two? Will we find out how much a presidential veto costs? Will we find out how much
00:01:46a pardon costs?
00:01:49The price list. We are talking, we are talking about 2,500, 50, and
00:01:521,000 dollars according to journalists, it
00:01:55depends on whether it was a one-on-one meeting
00:01:59or... a wider group. Journalists explain, because there was already
00:02:03a statement from the president's spokesman, Mr.
00:02:06Leśkiewicz, that the chancellery did not organize it. However,
00:02:09a chancellery employee sent such invitations, and as journalists
00:02:12write, the foundation was created by people who worked in state
00:02:16treasury companies during the rule of Law and Justice and
00:02:20sit on councils that President Karol Nawrocki appointed.
00:02:23It's hard for me to imagine that
00:02:26and only Law and Justice did not the chancellery doesn't know that someone is organizing a paid meeting with the president, even if it
00:02:30wasn't directly organized by the chancellery, although we are finding out that a chancellery
00:02:34employee sent it from his email, you can see the name,
00:02:37surname,
00:02:40well, in the email, despite that, I can't
00:02:43imagine a situation in which the chancellery, even if it didn't organize
00:02:47it, doesn't know that someone is organizing a meeting with the president. Well, that sounds
00:02:50completely unserious. There is
00:02:53a price list, there are meetings, not cheap, I admit, but I understand that this
00:02:57face-to-face meeting was
00:03:01the most expensive option. Well, it sounds
00:03:04completely unserious, in fact, it's a disgrace.
00:03:07For the rest of this conversation, I invite you to TVP
00:03:10info.
00:03:16Let's also say that this whole matter arose
00:03:20at a time when the president is in the United States, he is there for
00:03:24the occasion of the UN General Assembly, he is to
00:03:27deliver a speech and at the same time he is to take part in such an
00:03:31event, the Polish American Economic Summit, organized
00:03:34precisely by the aforementioned foundation. Is
00:03:38combining such meetings, I ask you, because you were
00:03:41the deputy head of President Komorowski's cabinet, is
00:03:45combining such meetings organized by
00:03:48private foundations and a trip to represent the country at
00:03:52the UN forum standard? I have not encountered
00:03:55anything like this, to monetize contact with the president in this way. I
00:04:00know that former presidents
00:04:03often give, they go on
00:04:07lectures abroad, and these are paid lectures, it's like that all over
00:04:10the world. There are also charity events and auctions where
00:04:13you can bid on a meeting or dinner, for example, with
00:04:17the prime minister, with the president, there is nothing strange about that. However,
00:04:21a situation in which you can buy a meeting with
00:04:24the president, I understand, to discuss any topic, for example, issues of
00:04:27pardon or vetoing... a specific law that is, for
00:04:31example, inconvenient for a given group, well, that
00:04:34already sounds truly alarming. Madam
00:04:37MP, let's move on now to what happened
00:04:40in the party, namely the convention.
00:04:43You presented at the conference, it was a program conference.
00:04:47Yes, a program conference. We basically presented a manifesto, not
00:04:50a program, because by November 7th we will have a congress where
00:04:54we will present the exact program, so it was a kind of, you could say,
00:04:58a preview, but yes, we lifted the veil... of secrecy and some of our
00:05:01postulates, our offer for our voters was presented
00:05:05today. And what do you think will be the hook that will attract
00:05:08voters to a party that, let's face it, does not enjoy
00:05:11such support in the polls? The latest CBOS poll is only
00:05:150.1%.
00:05:17We are a new, new and old group, because we merged with
00:05:21one of the oldest political parties in Poland. We have
00:05:24proposals for young people, we have proposals for pensioners, for entrepreneurs,
00:05:28but of the interesting ones, which
00:05:31proposals and such safeguards, there
00:05:35are two. For me, it is a veto for the veto. This is an answer to the situation
00:05:38we now have in the country. President Nawrocki blocked
00:05:41and vetoed over 40 laws. This burdens
00:05:45the state budget, it costs us a lot, but above all, it
00:05:48costs citizens who, as in the case of the status of the closest
00:05:51person, simply still do not have
00:05:55their fundamental rights.
00:05:59We created such a veto for the veto. Of course, this requires
00:06:02a constitutional change, but we want to talk about
00:06:05it. A veto should be a kind of
00:06:08safeguard, not an exaggerated ego of the president, like what
00:06:12we have now. A president who spitefully
00:06:16vetoes the government, simply vetoing one law after another,
00:06:19really harms citizens.
00:06:21We want to prevent this, so that
00:06:25no one, even in the constitution, this is a truly great challenge and
00:06:29a need.
00:06:34in parliament, so it's a bit of wishful thinking, but
00:06:38important and needs to be discussed, because such a situation as it is
00:06:40now, where one uses it for one's own
00:06:44political ends, practicing veto politics
00:06:47is very harmful. The second issue, and the second is related to
00:06:51the discussion about two-term limits, because we talked about
00:06:54whether we are for or against maintaining two terms. The
00:06:58Civic Coalition wants to abandon it. The idea came up,
00:07:02yes, that after all, since we are talking about local government officials, why
00:07:06shouldn't we also talk about parliamentarians? Besides,
00:07:09I'll be honest, when I read comments even on social
00:07:12media, the argument very often appeared: start with
00:07:16yourselves. Well, we want to start. I see absolutely nothing wrong with
00:07:20term limits in parliament. It's not
00:07:23a lifelong profession. I think that letting
00:07:26fresh air into parliament is good. These three terms
00:07:30follow one after another, meaning these 12
00:07:33years, where such a member of parliament will already have experience, will be able to
00:07:36use it, and on the other hand, will be able to continue
00:07:40and complete specific projects during these 12
00:07:44years. This is a really good solution. Now, let's
00:07:47go back to the events in the Sejm last
00:07:50week. Your former boss, Szymon
00:07:54Hołownia, because your party originated
00:07:57from Polska 2050, which broke
00:08:00up after a new leader
00:08:03was elected, became the head of the
00:08:06parliamentary club, meaning he has a cumulation, he holds the position
00:08:10of deputy marshal and head of the club.
00:08:14Precisely, how do you assess it, why does he need that position?
00:08:18I don't know, I don't know that. That's
00:08:22a question for Marshal Szymon Hołownia. I don't know what
00:08:25his political plans are either, because I can
00:08:29only guess based on media
00:08:31reports, but also well, I must say that over the last few years
00:08:34Marshal Hołownia has often changed his mind, one might
00:08:38say he changed his mind at the speed of light sometimes, so...
00:08:42I don't know and I'm not up to date, I don't know what his current idea is, whether
00:08:46it's to go abroad, probably not, probably he wants to stay and
00:08:49build,
00:08:51well, to remain head of the club, that's one question, but also of the
00:08:54party? And does he want to, could this be a prelude
00:08:58to him joining the government, because there was talk that perhaps
00:09:01in recent weeks, I mean, it was talked about earlier too, but the last few weeks were the conversation
00:09:05about Marshal Hołownia potentially joining
00:09:08the government, first of all, such
00:09:11a proposal. After he ceased to be marshal, it was there, and the
00:09:15marshal did not
00:09:18take advantage of it. I understand that now he might have changed his mind and be
00:09:21interested, I don't know, one should ask Marshal directly.
00:09:25Is it good, well, it depends really on
00:09:29what ministry he would represent, because simply
00:09:33joining the government for the sake of the
00:09:35deputy prime minister's seat, well, we've already had such a saga
00:09:38and soap opera with the deputy prime minister for Ms. Katarzyna Pełczyńska.
00:09:43We were tired, most of all the citizens, we wouldn't want to repeat that.
00:09:47I understand that if there were such an idea at all, then Marshal Hołownia would have
00:09:51some plan, some idea,
00:09:54he would represent one of the ministries, and if he were to become
00:09:57deputy prime minister, it would be for
00:10:00specific matters, not just for the seat itself. However, I won't
00:10:03arrange the government for the Prime Minister, I leave that
00:10:07entirely in his hands. Well, but it was precisely about Marshal
00:10:10Hołownia pulling in people from his
00:10:13club, and perhaps also from your club, from
00:10:17the center, to show, "I have such an army behind me from both
00:10:21sides." He's trying to gather that. That's what's in...
00:11:34In any case, I see nothing wrong with discussing different
00:11:37scenarios, just as in 2023 we decided on a coalition with
00:11:41PSL, creating a third way. It ended in success. The project
00:11:44ran its course. Will we go with someone, or
00:11:48will we go in a coalition with several, with one
00:11:51group? It's too early to talk about it yet.
00:11:55We simply haven't had such discussions yet, but we are prepared, and every
00:11:58party should do this, regardless of whether it has 1% or
00:12:0240%, to work in such a way,
00:12:05assuming that it will run independently in the elections, and we are
00:12:08acting that way. Here's another new situation from the Sejm last
00:12:12week: the new Deputy Marshal Marcin
00:12:15Horała, meaning Mateusz Morawiecki got his way; he has
00:12:18his own deputy marshal. He doesn't have him, he has him
00:12:22thanks to the fact that the coalition supported, the ruling coalition
00:12:25supported this candidacy. Is this
00:12:28a defeat for Jarosław Kaczyński, and what exactly
00:12:31is Donald Tusk playing at by supporting his political
00:12:35opponent? Well, definitely a defeat, because
00:12:38this position of deputy marshal for Law and
00:12:40Justice lay dormant for the last three years.
00:12:43It lay dormant, it was a vacancy that awaited a candidate
00:12:47from the opposition,
00:12:51decide on it, because they stubbornly proposed... Mrs. Witek every
00:12:55time. In turn, the October 15 coalition
00:12:59did not agree to this. We said
00:13:03openly, we will vote for a deputy marshal from Law and
00:13:06Justice on condition that it is not Mrs. Witek, because Mrs.
00:13:10Witek, as marshal, broke the law, broke
00:13:14the Sejm rules, there is no consent for such a
00:13:17deputy marshal. But at the last minute, Jarosław Kaczyński changed
00:13:20the candidate, but it was at the last minute, knowing that in
00:13:23a moment, well, the Development
00:13:26Plus party would put forward its candidate. Three years ago, no one
00:13:30could have predicted that there would be a split in PiS,
00:13:33but now there is. We decided, I'm talking about
00:13:36our parliamentary club, the Center, to vote for Marcin
00:13:39Horała, for several reasons, also because
00:13:43it was Law and Justice and Chairman Kaczyński who in 2015
00:13:47blocked the deputy marshal for the full-fledged parliamentary
00:13:50club, which was PSL, having over
00:13:5315 deputies, yet they did not receive
00:13:56a deputy marshal. So, these are such
00:14:00unparliamentary behaviors, which, well, not only once,
00:14:03by the way,
00:14:05PiS acted that way many times, and now, well,
00:14:09they were late. That position waited for three years, now it has been
00:14:13taken by the opposition, but still
00:14:16not a candidate from Law and Justice. You mentioned the president's
00:14:19vetoes. The Sejm failed to overturn the president's
00:14:22veto regarding the law on the status of the closest
00:14:26person. Will there still be a return to civil partnerships in this
00:14:29Sejm term in any form? I deeply
00:14:32regret that. Two million couples living in
00:14:36informal relationships have been waiting for their rights for
00:14:40years, and unfortunately, they haven't gotten those rights. And let me just remind
00:14:43you, this draft law was already a very truncated draft
00:14:47law. For me, it's just the beginning, but I'm glad it
00:14:50came out of the Sejm, I was glad, perhaps, that it came out of
00:14:53the Sejm, because that was... that was the minimum
00:14:56guaranteed rights for these couples. Here, I must
00:15:00say, the PSL deputies,
00:15:03the most conservative group in the coalition,
00:15:06sat with us on this extraordinary committee that
00:15:09was formed precisely for
00:15:12this law. We talked, we managed to work out some common
00:15:16solution, so it's clear that discussion does make sense and
00:15:19brings results. Unfortunately, the president misled
00:15:23everyone, because during the campaign he said: that he would support such a project
00:15:27on the status of the closest person, if it did not equate this institution with
00:15:30marriage. This did not equate it, yet the president vetoed the law,
00:15:34a great pity, because he said during the campaign after
00:16:07this Friday we voted through changes in
00:16:11the committees, in the composition of the committees. I will be on this committee, I feel
00:16:15that we owe this to our female voters who went to the polls in such large numbers in
00:16:192023 and we promised
00:16:22changes to this law. I am glad that I will be on this committee and I will really
00:16:26talk to everyone who is on this committee and I will do everything
00:16:30in my power to persuade colleagues
00:16:33to pass this law. The laws that are...
00:16:37came out of the Sejm, certainly the necessary
00:16:40minimum. This necessary minimum is little, but it's always the first
00:16:44step. This is a law that repairs, restores
00:16:48what was there before this disgraceful court ruling,
00:16:52but also decriminalizes
00:16:54aid in abortion. Madam
00:16:58MP, one last question. Today, a march on the streets of
00:17:01Warsaw, supporting Grzegorz Braun. The European Parliament last
00:17:05week lifted.
00:17:45actually, from the public space, from the media space, because he not
00:17:48only harms, he is simply dangerous. Thank you very much.
00:17:51Today's guest on Question of the Day was
00:17:55MP Aleksandra Leo, Center Union. I
00:17:59invite you now to the special report by Bianka
00:18:02Mikołajewska.