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00:00:22thank you for joining us in Strasbourg in a European Parliament currently focused
00:00:26on Washington and holding its breath before the results of the
00:00:30midterm elections in the United States, which are renewing
00:00:33Congress. A majority of European leaders and parties quietly hope for a
00:00:37defeat of Donald Trump in this election and a weakening of his
00:00:40policy, which seeks to challenge international law and
00:00:44multilateralism. In recent weeks, the American president has once
00:00:47again worried Europeans by lifting sanctions against Russia and by
00:00:51concluding an agreement to import Russian diesel to the United States,
00:00:55which significantly weakens Ukraine and its allies. Yes, so
00:00:58Donald Trump hopes. to thus lower gasoline prices on the American
00:01:02market and resolve an energy crisis that he himself
00:01:05provoked by starting the war in Iran without consulting his European
00:01:09allies. He also attacks international institutions, symbols of
00:01:13multilateralism that he doesn't like. Latest
00:01:16target: the International Criminal Court. And finally, in Europe, he tries
00:01:20to boost far-right parties favorable to his anti-immigration,
00:01:24anti-woke values, interfering in electoral campaigns
00:01:27with the power of social networks and American digital platforms.
00:01:31To discuss this today, three MEPs: Chloé Ridel, hello.
00:01:34Hello, you are a French socialist MEP, author of the book
00:01:37"Gémininisme" which explores the links
00:01:40interests of all of between patriarchy and international relations, a book published by Stock editions. Facing you,
00:01:44András László, hello. Hello, you are a Hungarian MEP, member of the
00:01:48Patriots for Europe group, located on the far right of the European
00:01:52responsible today for the increase in energy Parliament, a group, we specify, founded by Marine Le Pen and Viktor Orbán,
00:01:55the former Hungarian Prime Minister, a fervent supporter of Donald Trump. And with us
00:01:59also, Željana Zovko, hello, you are a Croatian
00:02:02MEP, Vice-President of the European Parliament and member of the European People's
00:02:06Party group on the right of the Parliament. So, Chloé Ridel, does
00:02:09the European Parliament and the European Union
00:02:13in their majority hope for a clear defeat
00:02:16of Donald Trump in the midterm elections? Donald
00:02:20Trump, who has constantly sought to weaken Europe since his return to
00:02:24Washington. It would clearly be in the interest of the European Union and
00:02:27Europeans for Donald Trump to stumble
00:02:30in the midterms because Donald Trump has only gone against
00:02:33European interests. He wages war everywhere, he is still
00:02:36responsible for the fact that the price of a liter of gasoline has reached nearly €3
00:02:40in some EU countries, so he impoverishes us, he makes us
00:02:43insecure, he destroys, as you said in the introduction, international
00:02:47judicial institutions like the International Criminal Court, whose headquarters
00:02:51are located in The Hague in Europe, by sanctioning its judges and
00:02:55now by sanctioning the institution itself. So I
00:02:59hope... that this type of brutal
00:03:02power stops, takes a symbolic blow. If Donald Trump
00:03:06loses his midterms, it will be more of a symbolic blow than anything else,
00:03:09because the reality is that he can continue to
00:03:12govern with notably decrees against
00:03:16which the House and the Senate are powerless. I take
00:03:19the example of the decree that provides for sanctions against the
00:03:22International Criminal Court. Congress can do nothing against that.
00:03:26So we shouldn't hope if
00:03:29there's a victory for... that everything will change for us Europeans,
00:03:32that Trump will stop abandoning Ukrainian
00:03:35civilians who were
00:03:3798 which killed in September, plus 85% of Ukrainian
00:03:40civilians killed, 400 civilians per month. We shouldn't hope that
00:03:44all this pro-Putin policy of the United States
00:03:47will stop, like the deeply
00:03:51anti-rule of law and freedom
00:03:54policy of Donald Trump, unfortunately. What are the
00:03:57expectations of the European right regarding these midterms?
00:04:09European judges of the European
00:04:14and we have parliamentary diplomacy. I agree that the loss of
00:04:17two of
00:04:21two chambers does not mean
00:04:24a change in US
00:04:27foreign policy. We must remember
00:04:31that these elections are elections for each state
00:04:34by state, and there is division even
00:04:37within the Republicans, there is within
00:04:40the MAGA movement that is against the Iran war because
00:04:44they see what it brings to the
00:04:46United States, and also, there is a great
00:04:50division among the Republicans
00:04:53on the behavior towards Ukraine because they are also, they
00:04:57have great support for Ukraine, and
00:05:01I would not confuse these
00:05:04elections with a change, a pro or anti-Trump referendum.
00:05:08You say it's not that, it's also national and also
00:05:11regional elections.
00:05:20Would a victory for this president in the midterms, a
00:05:23victory that, according to polls,
00:05:26is nevertheless fading, be good news for Europe when we see
00:05:30that he has constantly made us a scapegoat? Ultimately, he constantly attacks
00:05:34Europeans. Well, in the last two years, what we have
00:05:38seen is that President Trump's
00:05:41administration wants a
00:05:43rebalancing of the transatlantic
00:05:45relationship. US foreign
00:05:49policy and American strategy
00:05:51demand that European allies take more
00:05:55responsibility for their security, for our security
00:05:59here in Europe. I think that expecting an American
00:06:02president, whether Democrat or Republican, to
00:06:06prioritize European interests and try to
00:06:09resolve the conflicts in Europe that affect
00:06:12us the most, that's a bit naive. Their
00:06:15strategy is very clearly, and it was published in their
00:06:18strategy, that they want a new partnership
00:06:22with Europe. They want a Europe that is more powerful,
00:06:26that is more independent, that is strong in its identity,
00:06:29and that can weigh in when necessary and that can help the
00:06:33United States, because precisely the power relations at
00:06:36the global level are changing, and the United States needs
00:06:40an ally in Europe that is strong, that is independent, that
00:06:44is responsible, that is capable, which it is
00:06:47not for now,
00:06:50independent. You say Donald Trump wants an
00:06:54independent Europe while interfering in elections when they
00:06:57happen in Europe. You say Donald Trump wants a
00:07:00strong Europe when he extorts us with customs
00:07:04duties and brutal commercial negotiations that
00:07:08subject us to permanent blackmail, that
00:07:11weakens the purchasing power of our fellow citizens by launching
00:07:14thoughtless and
00:07:16inconsiderate wars. The war in Ukraine was not
00:07:20launched by Mr. Donald Trump. He was elected in
00:07:232020. We cannot say, in fact, he was the only one to
00:07:27say that he wants to do something to restore peace in
00:07:30Ukraine. European diplomacy refuses to do anything.
00:07:34It was Mr. Orbán in 2024 who tried to
00:07:37negotiate, and this house, this parliament
00:07:40attacked Mr.
00:07:57we will talk about the relationship between
00:08:00Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and this agreement he concluded to
00:08:03import Russian diesel to the United States. He is trying to
00:08:07lower the price of gasoline on the American market and in Europe, even
00:08:11Donald Trump's allies were outraged by this lifting
00:08:14of sanctions against the Kremlin. Let's listen to the Italian leader Giorgia
00:08:18Meloni.
00:08:21We must take into account the agreement on Russian diesel announced by the President of the
00:08:24United States, Donald Trump. This is a
00:08:27choice that I consider very risky. The outcome of this
00:08:31choice is uncertain, while the risks are evident: a
00:08:35legitimization of Moscow while its bombs continue to
00:08:38fall on Ukrainian cities, new revenues allowing for...
00:08:51as you said, but also traditionally close to the United States, reacted to
00:08:55this lifting of American sanctions against
00:08:59Russia, this agreement to import Russian
00:09:01gas concluded with Vladimir Putin, while we have based
00:09:05our entire strategy on precisely an embargo on Russian
00:09:09oil. I see this as
00:09:13a bad situation for Ukraine. We
00:09:16do not approve of this lifting of
00:09:20sanctions, and we think that we
00:09:23really need to get out of this situation, which is
00:09:26really sending a strong
00:09:29message to Ukrainians who are suffering at this
00:09:32moment, and there is no solidarity
00:09:36with them. But I see this, and I
00:09:40think that this situation
00:09:43must be overcome, but we need Republicans in Congress,
00:09:47in the Senate, to apply pressure
00:09:50to
00:09:54resolve this. It doesn't seem to be working for now. Donald Trump does
00:09:57strictly what he wants. It will work, it will work
00:10:01badly if he is left alone
00:10:04without any leverage after the
00:10:07military elections. and specifies that Hungary benefits from a
00:10:11derogation within the European Union to import Russian
00:10:14oil. Do you understand this agreement between Trump and Putin
00:10:18on Russian diesel and the American
00:10:21desire to weaken the Ukrainian president Volodymyr
00:10:25Zelensky more than ever, and even claim that the current
00:10:28fault, even though there is a war in Iran triggered by the
00:10:32United States? Well, our responsibility
00:10:35is European to ensure that energy
00:10:38prices in Europe are
00:10:42such that families and businesses in Europe
00:10:45can pay, can continue their activities,
00:10:49businesses, that families can pay for heating, for diesel,
00:10:53for oil, etc. Even if we have to buy Russian
00:10:56oil and finance Vladimir Putin's war, the
00:10:59promise from President Ursula von der Leyen and Joe
00:11:03Biden in 2022 when they announced the
00:11:06first sanction, the first sanctions
00:11:09against Russia, was that the sanctions would bring
00:11:13Russia to its knees and that they would have to end this war in
00:11:17Ukraine. It's been 4 years now, more than now, not
00:11:21won, they haven't won, but the effectiveness of the
00:11:23sanctions to end the war in Ukraine is
00:11:27terrible, the effect on the European economy is enormous,
00:11:31the price and the proportionality are not
00:11:34there, that's all that's happening, why, why in
00:11:37this situation don't European
00:11:40leaders do more, don't they try
00:11:44to do something to lower prices in
00:11:46Europe? So when we listen to you, it's always the
00:11:50fault of the Europeans, it's crazy to self-flagellate to this extent, it's never Putin's
00:11:54fault, it's never Trump's
00:11:55fault.
00:11:59content, you are very happy to be able to continue to
00:12:02buy Russian oil against the
00:12:05Europe, you act on your own, but you have nothing to
00:12:09say about the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, which is the
00:12:13result of Donald Trump's policy and which is
00:12:17prices in Europe.
00:12:20Regarding Ukraine, I find that it is a terrible
00:12:24humanitarian situation, we must remember that because we don't talk
00:12:28about it, we don't talk about it anymore, we don't say anymore that people
00:12:31continue to die in Ukraine, innocent civilians, energy
00:12:35infrastructures that are constantly bombed by the
00:12:39Russians, the Americans have cut off
00:12:42intelligence and so they abandon Ukraine for the umpteenth
00:12:45time. There is only Europe left to support the Ukrainian resistance because it is
00:12:49in our interest because Putin is starting a war not only against
00:12:52Ukraine but against Europe as a whole. So we cannot
00:12:55give in to this Russia
00:12:59and we must continue to denounce it and be
00:13:03deeply supportive of Ukraine and
00:13:07and and maintain sanctions and finally
00:13:10diversify our energy supplies,
00:13:14that is why we must continue to support the Green Deal and in fact the right and
00:13:17far-right today in the European Parliament are doing the opposite,
00:13:21that is, we are not supporting Ukraine.
00:13:36We really need to be flexible, we need to tell people what we're doing here in Parliament to be flexible for the import of American
00:13:39gas. So, American gas
00:13:43to grant more American gas and always
00:13:47further delay the exit from energy. In the meantime, it's absurd. The International
00:13:50Criminal Court under sanctions. That doesn't shock you? The Criminal
00:13:54Court had problems with all American
00:13:58administrations. There was Article
00:14:02said that all American soldiers cannot be
00:14:05punished, but that's a very long story.
00:14:08I am already old enough to know the entire
00:14:12history of the International Criminal Code, and that's not something
00:14:15we're going to resolve here. András, Donald Trump
00:14:19decided on sanctions against the International Criminal Court. What do
00:14:23you think of these attacks against international justice? And
00:14:27finally, isn't it the same as when Viktor Orbán, when he led
00:14:30Hungary, also attacked
00:14:34Court of Justice? Isn't it an attack against our international law?
00:14:38The United States has never joined the International Criminal
00:14:41Court, and despite
00:14:44that, the International Criminal Court tries
00:14:47to punish Americans who are not
00:14:51under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, obviously.
00:14:55There will be measures taken by the
00:14:58United States. Same thing, the International Criminal Court tries
00:15:02to go and punish Israeli leaders who
00:15:05have also never joined
00:15:09the International Criminal Court. This is unacceptable. There
00:15:12are, there are international
00:15:14organizations that are created by certain states and then
00:15:18take on competencies or claim to have
00:15:22global, universal competencies that were never
00:15:25given to them. The International Criminal Court was created on
00:15:29the rubble of the 20th century, the worst crimes committed against
00:15:33civilians, many in Europe, and it carries an
00:15:36ideal that crimes of genocide, war crimes, crimes against
00:15:39humanity should not go unpunished. And it does not prosecute
00:15:42states, it prosecutes individuals, criminal
00:15:46individuals. I have been working for 2 years on American
00:15:50sanctions against the International Criminal Court, trying to alert the European
00:15:53Commission in Europe, public opinion, to
00:15:57push the European Commission to act by activating what is called the blocking
00:16:00regulation, which would allow to protect the International Criminal
00:16:03Court against the effect of American sanctions, and nothing has been done, nothing has been
00:16:06done. And Donald Trump started by sanctioning the judges, now he is sanctioning
00:16:10the entire institution, and it is a death threat against the court.
00:16:14So Donald Trump's intentions are clear. You say
00:16:18the American administration has always had a problem with the ICC, but
00:16:21today Donald Trump wants to dismantle the International Criminal Court,
00:16:25he says so in those terms, we cannot
00:16:28accept it. It took 50 years to build this court which is the heir to the Nuremberg
00:16:31tribunal that judged Nazi crimes, and
00:16:35here we are not only on a matter of European sovereignty but much
00:16:39broader, of a certain idea of human rights and international
00:16:42law, and that must be our task as Europeans
00:16:46and you say you are pro-European center, you must be in this
00:16:50fight. Thank you for having at least very well
00:16:53illustrated this debate, we will do specifically on the International Criminal
00:16:57Court next time. Very good continuation of programs on our
00:17:00channels.
00:29:05The jury pronounces,
00:29:58hello everyone and welcome to this edition of Actuel dedicated to the
00:30:02elections. midterms in the United States, the midterms
00:30:05are looking difficult for Donald Trump with the rising cost of living
00:30:09due to the war in Iran that he triggered in February, but
00:30:12his political record is also the methodical dismantling of
00:30:16women's rights, voluntary termination of pregnancy first and then his
00:30:20support for measures that will perhaps reduce the number of women
00:30:23who can vote in the United States, so how do
00:30:27women react to this policy, does this setback
00:30:30on their rights change their vote?
00:30:33To talk about it, I am pleased to speak today with Émilie Mitrand,
00:30:36hello, you are a historian and Americanist, professor at
00:30:39the University of Toulomb, and also with us Bris
00:30:43Lambert, you are a journalist and director, you notably signed the
00:30:46documentary "Weak Sex: America at War Against its Women" for
00:30:50which you have just received the Albert Londe Prize, congratulations to you and
00:30:54thank you both for responding to Actuel's invitation. Émilie, Donald
00:30:57Trump is directly attacking women's rights with...