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00:00:00by Sophie Vingadasalom and Kessy Wishoptai to be seen on France
00:00:03other Member States of 24. France 24 and RFI present.
00:00:15legislative acts of
00:00:22Hello everyone, welcome to Europe on France 24 and Radio
00:00:26France Internationale. With a disruptive American president like
00:00:30Donald Trump who challenges international law, an expansionist
00:00:33Vladimir Putin and an ambushed China, we will
00:00:37talk about the rule of law in Europe, and for that we
00:00:40welcome the president of the European Union Court of Justice,
00:00:44year, your European Union hello, this European institution,
00:00:47I should specify, is based in Luxembourg and interprets
00:00:50European law, settles disputes between states and EU
00:00:54institutions, but also sometimes those between individuals, businesses,
00:00:58NGOs and an institution that
00:01:00may have violated their rights. The Court of Justice is composed of 27
00:01:05prohibited any mention of judges, 11 advocates general and has been presided over by you for 11 years, a Belgian, Conne Lennart,
00:01:09hello, do you generally
00:01:12consider that the rule of law
00:01:15the press. So precisely in Europe is weakened and
00:01:18attacked at the moment? I believe that the rule of law
00:01:21in Europe is still very strong and very
00:01:24respected. In reality, the European Union
00:01:28itself is an expression of
00:01:30the rule of law. These are sovereign states
00:01:34in Europe that have concluded treaties
00:01:37President of the European Union among themselves to jointly
00:01:40exercise parts of their own
00:01:43sovereignty, because they can do it
00:01:46more effectively and more efficiently,
00:01:50by that, I am already paraphrasing
00:01:53the deep meaning of the principle of
00:01:56subsidiarity, that is to say what can be dealt with at the local level.
00:02:00It must be dealt with at the local level, what can be dealt with at the national level, at the
00:02:03national level and at the European level, well, there
00:02:07we have we deal
00:02:10with it exactly, what can only be dealt with at this
00:02:14level to be effective, that means at the lowest cost and
00:02:18with the greatest result, as every week, I suggest
00:02:21you news from our union, it's right now Europe in
00:02:25brief with Florine
00:02:26Hosphater.
00:02:31It's a historic victory celebrated by thousands of Serbs in the
00:02:34streets. The list of students from civil society won
00:02:38the legislative elections with 140 seats out of
00:02:41250 against the party of nationalist leader Alexander
00:02:44Vučić. Serbia had applied for European Union membership
00:02:48in 2009, but negotiations stalled over Vutric's authoritarianism
00:02:51and pro-Kremlin stance. European Commissioner
00:02:54for Enlargement Martas reacted. After nearly 2 years
00:02:58of demonstrations in favor of democracy, the rule of law and the fight
00:03:02against corruption, Serbs mobilized in unprecedented
00:03:05numbers, a new chapter can open for Serbia, the EU
00:03:08door is open and we are ready to move forward
00:03:11together. Canada is also continuing its negotiations
00:03:16delay in implementing the court's with the EU. While some member states like France contest the
00:03:18status of associate member which does not exist
00:03:20law is the opposite of in European texts, all support this rapprochement. A
00:03:24summit was held on Thursday and Friday in Montreal to define the outlines of this
00:03:28new strategic partnership, conceived by both parties as an
00:03:31alternative to increasingly unstable relations with the
00:03:34United States. The European Commission has proposed a reform of the Frontex
00:03:38agency that would further tighten European migration policy. At stake
00:03:42is an increase in Frontex's budget and staff, but also the
00:03:46possibility of intervening outside the Union's borders to send people
00:03:49from third countries even before they reach it. This proposal
00:03:53raises serious concerns from human rights organizations. As a
00:03:56reminder, the European Union Court of Justice ruled in December
00:04:00Frontex responsible for guaranteeing the fundamental rights
00:04:03of individuals and the existence of written return decisions
00:04:07during joint return operations.
00:04:10Coun des arts has indeed received
00:04:14referrals against certain countries, this has often been the case against Hungary and Poland
00:04:17accused of authoritarian drifts. Poland
00:04:20now has the pro-European government of Donald Tusk and Hungary
00:04:24has also changed government, this has not escaped you with Peter
00:04:27Maguiard, do you have fewer referrals concerning them and above all, do you
00:04:31believe them capable of restoring a good rule of
00:04:34law? The good news here is
00:04:37indeed, we have fewer referrals, but
00:04:40above all we have even already had a case
00:04:44where the European Commission withdrew an
00:04:47infringement action it had brought before the European
00:04:51Union Court of Justice against Hungary
00:04:55because of the law on national
00:04:57what the primacy of Union sovereignty which had been
00:05:01during the mandate of the previous government, the
00:05:04current government
00:05:06did
00:05:09so approved by parliament.
00:05:12law, a law that withdraws this old
00:05:16legislation, after which the European Commission withdrew
00:05:19its action, it was really a case of
00:05:22constitutional scope at the level of the entire
00:05:26European Union, and so it proves
00:05:29that ultimately the rule of law, the court
00:05:33can set the boundaries of what
00:05:36the rule of law entails, but like any judicial decision,
00:05:40and this applies in all countries of the world, the
00:05:44implementation of judicial decisions is a
00:05:47task of the political, legislative
00:05:51and executive authorities. Let's take a concrete example, Mr. President, this
00:05:56Court of Justice ruled on the 2021 law, designed
00:06:00to introduce severe measures against pedophiles and protect
00:06:04minors, but which de facto in Hungary would restrict access to
00:06:07LGBT content in media, bookstores, the
00:06:11parliament with this new pro-European majority
00:06:14repealed this law which
00:06:18homosexuality, so case law is shifting the lines,
00:06:21exactly, it's another example and I'm grateful
00:06:25that you cite it, where Hungary has therefore
00:06:28adapted its legislation after our judgment,
00:06:32that is to say, to implement our judgment,
00:06:35all this proves that the rule
00:06:38of law works in Europe and that is why also
00:06:42I did not speak of the rule of law in
00:06:46terms of fighting or in terms of conflict
00:06:49with our member states, no, the member
00:06:52states have all committed to respecting
00:06:55these common values that I have cited, when a member
00:06:59state crosses the red lines, that is to say the
00:07:03essential content of these values, the court must
00:07:06acknowledge it in its case law, and the
00:07:09member states and the two Hungarian examples
00:07:12show, implement the judgment of the Court of Justice. You are
00:07:16also seized by the European Commission for failure to respect the rule of law in the case of Slovakia
00:07:20of Robert Fico, who is therefore a populist who is accused of
00:07:23dismantling anti-corruption mechanisms and of not providing
00:07:26access for defendants to a lawyer, and
00:07:30if this state, since the government has not changed, does
00:07:34not comply with your binding opinions, what happens? In such
00:07:37a case, when the court finds the infringement, it is
00:07:41incumbent, in line with what I have just said, on the political
00:07:45power both at European level and at national
00:07:48level, to implement the judgment. At European
00:07:51level, it is the European Commission, the executive, if you
00:07:54will, which controls the implementation
00:07:57of our judgment by the member state. If
00:08:00the member state were to remain in default
00:08:04of doing so, the Commission can launch a second
00:08:08infringement procedure before the Court of Justice with
00:08:11fines. exactly, financial
00:08:15penalties. These financial penalties can be
00:08:18either a fine, technically called a lump
00:08:22sum, accompanied by a
00:08:25penalty per day of
00:08:28judgment, and these financial penalties
00:08:32really work
00:08:35because they are collected
00:08:38afterwards by a withholding tax on funds
00:08:42due by the European Union to the member state concerned,
00:08:46and so normally this is enough for the
00:08:49member state to comply with the rule of law. Here, what
00:08:53happened in Hungary, there was a "yes but" wait, these financial
00:08:56penalties, it was the member states
00:08:59themselves who provided for this
00:09:03through successive amendments to the initial
00:09:06treaties in which such fines were not found,
00:09:09so precisely
00:09:12to ensure that all member states implement the
00:09:16judgments of the Court of Justice, because otherwise equality
00:09:19between member states and their citizens before the
00:09:23law of the Union would no longer be ensured, that's what we're
00:09:27talking about when we talk about the rule of law. Let's also talk about some hot
00:09:30issues like frozen Russian assets,
00:09:34especially in Belgium, they are through the Euroclear
00:09:38clearing system, Belgium which fears legal
00:09:41proceedings for its
00:09:44country by the Russians, does it seem to
00:09:47you, since you are a good jurist, a serious
00:09:51legal threat? In reality, the legal threats we
00:09:55are talking about are not directly played out before the
00:09:59Court of Justice of the European Union, that being said, all
00:10:02decisions taken at European
00:10:05level can be challenged before the
00:10:08Court of Justice of the European Union, so it is not excluded that
00:10:12a case, whatever the decision taken, will reach
00:10:16us anyway, so that's why on the specific case I cannot
00:10:19comment, but the questions we have on the
00:10:23Russian sanctions are important because they are
00:10:26generally Russian oligarchs who have
00:10:30been listed as we say, so that is
00:10:34included on a list of people against
00:10:37whom sanctions are in force
00:10:41and these people obviously contest the legality of
00:10:45that, an example that actually affects
00:10:48France, it was Russia Today France which
00:10:52had already been placed in
00:10:552022 on the European Union's sanctions list and
00:10:58which attacked this decision before
00:11:01the Court of Justice of the European Union and so
00:11:05there Russia Today said, "Ah, I cannot be
00:11:08put on this list because I claim freedom of
00:11:11the press." So the Tribunal decided
00:11:14that freedom of the press has its limits when the media
00:11:18outlet is financed by a third country and is therefore an
00:11:22instrument of propaganda that incites hatred between
00:11:26peoples and war, so there you see again
00:11:29these values on which the European Union is
00:11:33founded, also frames
00:11:35the implementation of fundamental rights, here freedom of
00:11:40since we're talking about freedom, we're going to talk about another
00:11:44court, but this will interest you, the Sakharov Prize for
00:11:47Freedom of Thought has been awarded to the International Criminal Court,
00:11:51when you see that a Trump administration that is angered
00:11:55by Benjamin Netanyahu's passion concerning Gaza brandishes sanctions
00:11:58and plans an asset freeze in the United States and a ban
00:12:02on entry to the United States for all personnel of the International
00:12:06Criminal Court, does this will to blow up the guarantors
00:12:09of international law, the judges first and foremost, frighten
00:12:13you? Fear is perhaps a little exaggerated
00:12:16but it's a huge
00:12:18concern because
00:12:22since the Second World War, since Robert
00:12:25Schuman's declaration on
00:12:27then the community Europe as he saw
00:12:31it, concrete achievements that create a de facto
00:12:34solidarity, so in fact relations between
00:12:38states in Europe have been based on
00:12:42rules, rules of law that have been
00:12:45agreed upon between states that respect
00:12:49each other mutually and are in solidarity. The International
00:12:52Criminal Court is an expression of the same idea but
00:12:56at the global level for what
00:12:59is the prosecution of the most
00:13:02heinous crimes which are crimes
00:13:05against humanity and
00:13:08so I told you human dignity is the primary
00:13:11value of the European Union, so yes
00:13:14the judges of the International Criminal Court are our
00:13:17brothers and sisters just like the judges of the European
00:13:21Court of Human Rights, so all these courts that
00:13:25strive to uphold the law, the rule
00:13:28of law, to protect citizens against
00:13:32the arbitrariness of power, of an authoritarian power, of
00:13:36an oligarchic power, those
00:13:38in power who make citizens believe
00:13:42that the rule of
00:13:45democracy, it is in reality
00:13:49in view of the judges' inability
00:13:53to limit arbitrariness in the exercise of their
00:13:57power, but if you look at the great
00:14:00powers in the world, the leaders in
00:14:03power are in reality much
00:14:07more exercising personal
00:14:10power, in a way, personal
00:14:13power where the press is neutralized, judges
00:14:17are neutralized, political opposition is
00:14:20discredited, that is to say, all pluralistic
00:14:23democracy, making it inclusive in reality,
00:14:27isn't it? And so in fact neutralizing the European
00:14:30states that founded the European Union have therefore
00:14:34committed to this and have even
00:14:37committed, it is Article 3 paragraph 5 of the Treaty on European
00:14:41Union, to spread
00:14:44through their international relations
00:14:47with the rest of the world the same
00:14:50values as those on which the European Union
00:14:53itself is founded. In France, you can see that we are on the eve of a
00:14:57presidential election, where the party that is leading in the polls, the
00:15:00National Rally, defends the primacy of national law over European
00:15:04law, and therefore that
00:15:07a state can decide alone on the rules
00:15:11without European supervision, indeed, what
00:15:13does that inspire in you? I take your
00:15:17question as an opportunity to express
00:15:22law is and in reality... It's very
00:15:25simple, when you make a
00:15:28contract,
00:15:30and that's what the Member States have done with the 26 other
00:15:34Member States, each Member State, France has concluded a
00:15:37contract with the 26
00:15:41the European Union and we call this contract the
00:15:44Treaties and all the rules made by the European
00:15:48Parliament and the Council of the European Union in co-decision, the
00:15:53the Union, the primacy is simply the expression
00:15:57of the principle known since
00:16:00time immemorial in international law,
00:16:03pacta sunt servanda, we must
00:16:06respect our word, and that applies to
00:16:10France, to Germany, to Belgium, to Poland, to
00:16:13Hungary, to all 27 Member States, and
00:16:17the reason for this is very clear, if
00:16:20a Member State could say afterwards
00:16:23unilaterally, no, I didn't understand it that
00:16:26way, I have to do what
00:16:30I choose now, in reality, that
00:16:34state breaks the contract to which it
00:16:37committed, just like private individuals, as you know, we can't
00:16:41do that either, this primacy is the
00:16:44ultimate guarantee, once again,
00:16:47of equality of Member States and their
00:16:50citizens before the Treaty,
00:16:54national elections are also European elections, because
00:16:57they will determine how that Member
00:17:00State will assert its point of view in
00:17:04the common exercise of its
00:17:07national sovereignty that has been entrusted
00:30:16Hello everyone and welcome to this edition of Actuel dedicated to
00:30:20the midterm elections in the United States. The
00:30:23midterms are looking difficult for Donald Trump with the rising
00:30:27cost of living due to the war in Iran that he started in February,
00:30:30but his political record is also the methodical dismantling
00:30:34of women's rights, voluntary termination of pregnancy first, and then his
00:30:38support for measures that may reduce the number of women
00:30:42who can vote in the United States. So, how are women
00:30:45reacting to this policy, does this rollback on their
00:30:49rights change their vote? To talk about it, I am pleased
00:30:52to speak today with Emilie Mitrand, hello.