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00:00:00always with the community according to our slogan, our slogan
00:00:03together, which is the police together with the community, and we
00:00:07assure you that this is all purely in the form of law
00:00:11enforcement, it has nothing to do
00:00:14with competition or
00:00:17anything, but this is purely for the good
00:00:20of the police institution that we love in order
00:00:24to provide service and protection to the people of the nation,
00:00:27viewers, the alleged wiretapping by three high-ranking police officers. It's not just about individual
00:00:31criminal acts, but also concerns national security, the integrity
00:00:34of law enforcement institutions, and even the safety of the head of state. We
00:00:38will discuss this with the former deputy chief of police during the 2013-2014 period,
00:00:52the general chairman of Gibranisti, Taufiq Bil Faqih. Mas Taufiq, how
00:00:55are you?
00:00:59Alhamdulillah, I'm fine. Thank you, Mas Iqbal, and there's also constitutional law expert
00:01:02Herdian Shah Hamzah. Bang Herdi, good
00:01:13has certainly been circulating, right? Clips from Mahfud's
00:01:16MD podcast, including those linking the alleged
00:01:20wiretapping case to certain interests, one of which is Pak Mahfud
00:01:23who said the wiretapping results flowed to Solo. I want
00:01:27to ask for your response as a volunteer. What do you think, Mas Taufiq?
00:01:30if the institution
00:01:33Uh, thank you, Pak Mahfud MD. I think he also needs
00:01:36to account for his statement. But what's clear is that the
00:01:39accusations or assumptions or whatever framing
00:01:43is then addressed to Solo, in this case, Pak Jokowi,
00:01:47we strongly reject it.
00:01:50ultimately it's Solo. Someone And we appreciate what the National Police and their
00:01:52ranks are doing. And we should all have
00:01:55the same understanding and perspective that this crime
00:01:59must then be thoroughly investigated and we should leave it
00:02:02to the police, right? Not then, uh, starting
00:02:06with accusations that we think are already too far. And
00:02:09what should not be forgotten is that
00:02:12again, I want to say that actually the conflict it's too cheap if wiretapping of the president,
00:02:15of the number one person in this republic who has
00:02:19the power to make policies and certain strategies, is then
00:02:22thrown to local political figures, whether it's
00:02:26say, maybe a former president or
00:02:29maybe a user in Indonesia. For me, this
00:02:32must also be something much bigger, because it's impossible that
00:02:37what is being done by the state, what is the state administration, because this if you just tap the president and then give it to
00:02:39figures who are actually hierarchically
00:02:43no longer active, especially with the type of leadership of Pak
00:02:47two types of Wayang Beber remain Jokowi during his presidency and even after his retirement,
00:02:51we believe and also we ensure that he is not the type of person who
00:02:55interferes, whether
00:02:57is, if it's reversed, if the it's with state institutions or even his current position, it's
00:03:00very naive if he then interferes with his former
00:03:04subordinates as the Chief of Police to then take actions that
00:03:07lead to treason, especially since
00:03:10Pak LSP apparently started the wiretapping
00:03:14incident in 2025, where Pak Jokowi is
00:03:18an element or public figure who even gave support not only to
00:03:21Probogibran but also urged
00:03:24his volunteers to come on, let's not only oversee this
00:03:28government but even if necessary this period, meaning that
00:03:31in 2025, Pak Jokowi, up until now, has remained
00:03:35consistent in providing moral and spiritual support
00:03:38to this government. So I think the address
00:03:41given by Pak Mahfud is excessive and should
00:03:46then it is realized what be accounted for, I think that's it. Moreover, now it's only the president, right?
00:03:49The wiretapping is also carried out against state officials, political figures, and also businessmen,
00:03:54Is it, as I said at Mas Taufiq. Now, has it ever happened that because volunteers often interact
00:03:56with Pak Jokowi, has it ever been said that he felt like a victim of wiretapping
00:04:00or perhaps he has felt wiretapped, Mas
00:04:03Taufiq?
00:04:06If Pak Jokowi, I think, is someone who has been wiretapped since he was a governor,
00:04:10even after he became governor and president,
00:04:14he admitted to being wiretapped. It's just that his expression
00:04:17is not the same as some other state leaders and
00:04:21also elite figures. I think he remains calm and even
00:04:25solo or Pak Jokowi, but someone higher jokes sometimes because he has no problems, he's not
00:04:30of power that is driven, afraid of being wiretapped, even once, because there's nothing he hides. So I
00:04:33think, uh, most recently we also communicated with Pak Jokowi, including
00:04:37today we are at the high court uh, district court in East
00:04:41Jakarta escorting him, and we just laugh
00:04:44at the information that is circulating as if it's addressed to Pak
00:04:48Jokowi. But the question is whether Pak Jokowi is also
00:04:51a target of LSP or also
00:04:54Matuapres. I think that is something we
00:04:57should wait for the police investigation for.
00:05:00Even though, indirectly, it has been conveyed by Pak Yusril
00:05:04that the names of Mas Gibran and Pak Jokowi are also, up until now,
00:05:08not like the others who have been mentioned. So for us, whatever
00:05:12it is, whether Pak Jokowi is an object of wiretapping or not,
00:05:16basically we still support what is currently
00:05:19being investigated by the police. I think that's it, bro. Okay,
00:05:22good. Moreover, we remember that in December 2013,
00:05:26there were allegedly three units of wiretapping devices in the governor's
00:05:30house, Pak Jokowi at that time. Now, Pak Ugro, uh, this
00:05:33is, if we look at
00:05:36the authority to tap, right? Meaning, if
00:05:39it's according to procedure, there are rules,
00:05:43there's supervision, there's monitoring, so this doesn't happen,
00:05:46even targeting the head of state. Now, in 2023, we
00:05:50heard at that time that Pak Jokowi, when he was still president,
00:05:53could get intelligence information, and that was also
00:05:57obtained comprehensively, from BIN, from police intelligence,
00:06:00from TNI intelligence, from BC, and information outside of that, including survey
00:06:04data. Everything was there. Now, what are the limits
00:06:07up to this wiretapping?
00:06:11Uh, Pak Ugro?
00:06:15Yes, so the wiretapping carried
00:06:18out by uh, three high-ranking
00:06:22police officers who are now detained, three people,
00:06:26one general and two two-star generals, and it's being
00:06:29developed. Uh, I start from Article
00:06:33258 of the Criminal Code. Hmm, there it
00:06:37states in paragraph 1
00:06:40that it's not that easy to conduct wiretapping.
00:06:43So, a person, no citizen, should be wiretapped. Whoever it is, they should not
00:06:47be wiretapped. Yes, if for
00:06:50example it's disseminated, that's also prohibited, the results of the wiretap. Now, the
00:06:53third thing is, if the wiretapping is legal,
00:06:57there are rules for that too. It must be related to a criminal
00:07:00act. So there must be a police report, then after the police
00:07:04report, the case is heard, then
00:07:07a warrant is issued to start the investigation, SPDP, and
00:07:11it's followed up with a warrant for investigation. Now,
00:07:15can all cases be wiretapped? If all
00:07:18cases can be wiretapped, the rules are still unclear. For example, do
00:07:22pickpockets need to be wiretapped to find out where they are? That's difficult.
00:07:25So it should be certain criminal acts that can be wiretapped
00:07:28like that. Now, back to the incident, if
00:07:32wiretapping is carried out against the head of state and several high-ranking
00:07:35party officials, then their motives must be revealed.
00:07:38What are the motives of these wiretappers? For their own interests,
00:07:42or for their group, or for the interests of others
00:07:46there, or maybe if it's directed to something more serious,
00:07:49treason. If it's called treason, then we go back to Article
00:07:53160 of the Criminal Code, which is an attack
00:07:57that has been manifested in the form of preparations,
00:07:59actions have been manifested. Now, if this
00:08:03is linked to actions, preparations, actions manifested,
00:08:06is this wiretapping part of the preparations,
00:08:09actions manifested? But once again, what is the position of these
00:08:13wiretappers? In the police? If in the police,
00:08:17this incident happened after the person concerned was no longer the Chief of Police,
00:08:21they were already out. Then, if it's for their own interests, are they
00:08:25running for politics? Oh, pardon me, are they running for
00:08:282029? Or the third thing is, to support whoever
00:08:32sent the message for 2029? This is interesting to analyze, so it's not
00:08:35just, oh, this wiretapping was
00:08:39done without involving other people. In my opinion, we can
00:08:43speculate that there must be an interest. Once
00:08:46again, their own interest or the interest
00:08:49of one party, or there's an interest of
00:08:53another party that also needs this information. So, once
00:08:57again, for me, this is an extraordinary achievement for Pak
00:09:00Kapolri, General Suyudi, to uncover this.
00:09:03And until now, I still uh, give
00:09:06appreciation for this uncovering. In my opinion, it's an extraordinary step
00:09:10that the police have taken for 80 years. And
00:09:14during my 35 years and 2 months of service in the police,
00:09:17uh, for me, once again, uh, and
00:09:20thank you
00:09:23uh, Pak Ugro, but I read an article, right?
00:09:27Uh, you also were once wiretapped, right? According
00:09:31to the quote from this article.
00:09:34Yes, so this wiretapping can be
00:09:38used as a tool to pressure.
00:09:41So all officials are being pressured. Because I often appear in
00:09:44several, uh, events related to Pak Rawisyo or Dr.
00:09:47Tipa. So I contacted some of my juniors, "Eh, how are things
00:09:51going? What about these problems? Say hello. How is the police
00:09:54doing? Are there any security guard problems and so on?"
00:09:58No one answered. Now, coincidentally, on August 21, 2026, there was a struggle
00:10:02day. I came and met my juniors and they said
00:10:05to me, "Excuse me, General, we couldn't reply to your WhatsApp or call
00:10:09because all of our phones are monitored by
00:10:12the Chief of Police." "Eh, you're already a three-star general, why are you afraid of being monitored?"
00:10:16Right? That's all. Don't be afraid, just open it
00:10:18up, right? That's how it is. So once again, besides
00:10:22for.
00:10:27Who? Oh, yes, he was still in office on August 21,
00:10:312006. Pak LSW was still the Chief of Police
00:10:34at that time. Whereas Pak Suyudi was on October 1,
00:10:372026. Hmm, okay, so that's why
00:10:41the motive is being questioned. How do you see the momentum, because we see
00:10:45the institutional dynamics that occurred, there was a change of Chief of Police,
00:10:48then there was also a large number of officials replaced.
00:10:52Then the report was also made. How do you see
00:10:55the momentum, Pak Ugro? Yes.
00:10:59These issues, I also, we are friends, Mas. For example,
00:11:02I am friends with, uh, for example,
00:11:05the head of the KSP who used to
00:11:08have a hobby of old vehicles. For example, I
00:11:12visited him because he gave me a greeting. We chatted,
00:11:15"Eh, Mas, how is this? Information,
00:11:19information sometimes comes out quickly from
00:11:22where? Everyone is still confused why these issues
00:11:26from around the president's inner circle can come out
00:11:29like that, right?" So, uh, in my opinion,
00:11:32this incident was carried out. Yes,
00:11:35maybe if the president, when he was still the Minister of Defense, would also
00:11:39feel it. But it wasn't
00:11:43too widely circulated and exploded like it is now.
00:11:46Now, everything is being tapped, not just
00:11:49the palace circle. So, for me, if this analysis
00:11:53can be studied with
00:11:56with, uh, what, comprehensively,
00:11:59then it will be able to reveal that things
00:12:02like this, uh, related to
00:12:06wiretapping, must really be avoided and strict regulations
00:12:09must be made so that it is not easy to wiretap, whether it is related
00:12:13to ordinary criminal acts or related to political and state issues
00:12:17like that. Good, so it is strongly suspected that when Pak Prabowo Dulma was still
00:12:21the Minister of Defense, he felt he was being wiretapped.
00:12:25Yes, uh, Bang Herdi,
00:12:28there are actually several cases of wiretapping that have affected
00:12:32presidents. In 1999, conversations
00:12:35between President BJ Habibi and Attorney General Andi Muhammad
00:12:39Ghalib about the handling of President Suharto's examination, although at that time
00:12:42the perpetrator was not released. In 2013,
00:12:45President SBY was found to have been wiretapped by
00:12:49Australia, and the wiretapping occurred in 2009. The impact was very
00:12:52serious, to the point of having to question the ambassador and even withdraw at that
00:12:56time. Now, how do you see the impact of this on
00:13:01is quite serious, the head of state himself
00:13:03was targeted, Bang Herdi?
00:13:05Yes, the discussion about wiretapping, I think, must be placed within the discussion
00:13:09or constitutional discourse, right? Eh, I feel like something
00:13:13is missing from this wiretapping drama. If then
00:13:16wiretapping is carried out on President Prabowo, it's always mentioned. So my question
00:13:22civil society, activists, are wiretapped.
00:13:26What are they called? This is what I think is missing from the discussion about
00:13:29wiretapping. It must be understood that from a constitutional
00:13:33perspective, privacy is a constitutional right guaranteed
00:13:36in the constitution. I think Article 28G paragraph 1 of the
00:13:40basic law clearly states that the state guarantees the right to privacy. Even if we
00:13:43compare it with several international covenants, one of which is the International Covenant
00:13:47on Civil and Political Rights, covenants on civil and political rights
00:13:50of society, Article 17 also clearly states
00:13:53that the right to privacy is an inviolable right and
00:13:57must be fully guaranteed by the state. Now, I think in
00:14:01this wiretapping issue, we cannot only focus on political
00:14:05elites. Because if the ruling is only for political elites, I think it's not
00:14:08fair, because wiretapping is about the basic rights of citizens
00:14:12or the privacy rights of citizens. Let me give an example,
00:14:16uh, Mas Iqbal, until now, we have not found any release
00:14:19from the police regarding who exactly was explicitly wiretapped,
00:14:23besides Parabow and uh, what, the Cabinet Secretary, for example.
00:14:27We don't know that. Even though what we want is for this announcement
00:14:31to confirm that there was indeed abuse within the police,
00:14:34there were unlawful actions carried out by police
00:14:37officers who spied on their own citizens, which clearly
00:14:41violates the constitution because it is a basic right of citizens, carried out
00:14:45by the police. The second thing, I think, is that these unlawful
00:14:48actions confirm that the police, even until now,
00:14:51are still a tool
00:14:55that is used, as Pakro said, as a tool
00:14:58to pressure. Now, ultimately, if we talk about a tool
00:15:01to pressure, this actually leads to efforts to control the opposition,
00:15:05for example, uh, if we read
00:15:08the genealogy of, uh, Pak Listo Sigit, for example, because he was indeed
00:15:11appointed and had a long history with Pak Jokowi, it's hard
00:15:15to deny that genealogically there is a connection with Pak
00:15:18Jokowi. But that is a political perspective. If we
00:15:21read his gene, perhaps because of the split
00:15:25(in inverted commas) between Pak Jokowi and Pak Prabowo, for example, then the wiretapping
00:15:28issue also emerges and develops everywhere, even tending to be wild,
00:15:31like that. For me, first, if we talk about
00:15:35wiretapping, it should be placed in
00:15:37the concept of the basic rights of citizens which were actually violated
00:15:41by some high-ranking officers in the police. That's one.
00:15:43Second, these arbitrary actions prove that
00:15:47even until now, we still don't have,
00:15:51uh, law enforcement apparatus, an institution
00:15:54called the Indonesian National Police, that is professional. Instead, there is
00:15:58a tendency to be detached. If Pak Suyudi's statement says that this
00:16:02is purely a legal matter, I don't believe that, because it's hard
00:16:05to deny that this is not just a legal problem.
00:16:08There is a situation where the police are indeed
00:16:11not professional in carrying out their duties and functions, even tending to
00:16:15overlap abusively with the basic rights of citizens. So,
00:16:18actually, I feel that this is also an opportunity for
00:16:22us to carry out or encourage further reform processes within
00:16:25the police institution with the facts that
00:16:29we have obtained in various cases. Okay, we'll continue later,
00:16:32because I also quoted Pak Ugro who once
00:16:35stated that this is strongly suspected to have intellectual
00:16:39actors behind all these wiretapping cases. We will discuss this further, but we
00:16:43need to take a break first. Please stay with us on Prime Time News.
00:16:58Presented
00:16:59by,
00:17:03supported by...
00:17:38top cappuccino with Italian flavor from
00:19:03are suspected of having conducted illegal wiretapping
00:19:06or illegal tapping
00:19:09of the telephone number of the President of the Republic
00:19:12of Indonesia.
00:19:17In this modern era, there are many ears that want
00:19:19to hear
00:19:24that this is absolutely
00:19:27treason.
00:19:34We will now continue this discussion with the resource person who has
00:19:38joined Prime Time News. Uh, Mas Taufiq, if
00:19:42we look at the relationship between Pak Jokowi and Pak Listio,
00:19:45it has, uh, been going on for a long time, right? Since
00:19:49in Solo, like that. Now, this inevitably makes people
00:19:52connect the dots, like that,
00:19:55between
00:19:58Yes, okay. Now, how do you respond to that, Mas Taufiq,
00:20:02uh, because, uh, if we
00:20:05look at it, Pak Listo can be said to be Pak Jokowi's
00:20:09trusted person. He was an aide, even became Chief of Police, whose appointment
00:20:12at that time surpassed more senior officers. That shows his closeness. How do you respond
00:20:16to that, Mas Taufiq?
00:20:20Uh, it's natural if there are people who then judge and make
00:20:24connections about the relationship between Pak Jokowi and Pak LS, or
00:20:27Pak LSP. When the issue of wiretapping
00:20:30emerged, it was as if it was linked to Pak
00:20:34Jokowi. Yes, of course there could be a connection, but...
00:20:38Please, let's read it objectively, that Pak
00:20:41Kapolri, or our former Chief of Police, is a soldier who
00:20:44will naturally only serve his superiors, he will
00:20:48serve his leaders, his supreme commander.
00:20:51Meaning, this is a matter that, in my opinion, cannot
00:20:55then be viewed with a straight line,
00:20:58just because of the coincidence of the close relationship between Pak Jokowi
00:21:02and Pak, uh, Sigit, that's also important.
00:21:06Especially since their relationship is not a family relationship,
00:21:09but a professional relationship. Even if from
00:21:12the beginning of Pak Sigit's career he was with Pak Jokowi,
00:21:16we shouldn't immediately conclude that whatever
00:21:20Pak Jokowi's political interests outside the palace are, Pak
00:21:24Sigit will follow them. That's the first thing. The second thing is, please
00:21:27also understand rationally
00:21:30that, uh, the relationship
00:21:34between Pak Sigit and Pak Prabowo, I think, is also very
00:21:37emotional, both as Chief of Police, as
00:21:41KSP, and also as fellow people who
00:21:44serve this country. So I think this is a matter
00:21:47of betrayal. I think betrayal can happen even to people who have
00:21:51a very emotional relationship. So we can't just scapegoat
00:21:55it just because of the closeness of Pak Jokowi with Pak Sigit, and then
00:21:58ultimately this incident is related to Solo. And I am
00:22:01very sure, especially since we just met with Pak Jokowi, what
00:22:05we saw was that when discussing this issue, it was precisely
00:22:09our confidence that this should be thoroughly
00:22:12investigated. Let's leave it to the police,
00:22:16right? So whatever is circulating in the media, for us, that
00:22:19is... normal. However, we still remind, including Pak Mahfud
00:22:23MD earlier, be careful, don't let it then fall
00:22:26into slander, don't let excessive suspicion and prejudice
00:22:30ultimately lead to us having a tajasus (spying) nature
00:22:33that ultimately leads to Solo. And we are no longer surprised. Even for
00:22:37trivial matters, is fired, someone is corrupt,
00:22:41ultimately it's Solo. The Hajj issue, ultimately it's Solo. So it's natural
00:22:44that this wiretapping issue ultimately involves Pak Jokowi. But one
00:22:48thing, thank God, we... not only believe, but we also encourage
00:22:51the Chief of Police to go ahead and conduct
00:22:55a much deeper investigation so that we know who the user
00:22:58is, whether it's domestic or foreign, or if it's related to
00:23:01political interests in 2029, as Pak
00:23:05Ugro suspected, or what. So I think this is important
00:23:08too. Once again, we are not afraid, and we are not worried. In fact,
00:23:12we, as part of the volunteers, encourage this
00:23:15to be purely a law enforcement process. Okay, Pak
00:23:18Ugro, uh, so where does it lead? If you happened to mention in
00:23:22the interview that this is strongly suspected to have intellectual
00:23:26actors, and you are also strongly suspected to have been a victim of
00:23:29that wiretapping, and the perpetrators are also those who are currently being processed, where does
00:23:33this wiretapping product lead, Pak Ugro?
00:23:37Yes, so maybe the wiretapping against me was not
00:23:41done, uh, maybe for, uh, let's say,
00:23:44people say, so I'll be a bit quiet, don't appear
00:23:48everywhere. Well, if I'm retired and don't appear anywhere, I'll get sick.
00:23:52That's a small problem for me. So I don't need to
00:23:56worry about it. But if it's now said that wiretapping
00:23:59was known
00:24:01to be ordered and carried out by a special team, where it's clear
00:24:05that three people are now detained, one four-star general, one two-star
00:24:08general, and two others, right? So what's
00:24:12the interest now if
00:24:15wiretapping is done by that's one
00:24:18rank of inspector one or first lieutenant then two
00:24:21brigadiers, right, this is something we can
00:24:24prove very quickly for what purpose, like, if they don't admit it, just call
00:24:28them for what, they'll surely admit it. Now, if
00:24:32what's happening now is some high-ranking police officers,
00:24:36rogue elements, not all of them, then
00:24:39for what purpose? For their own interests, for what?
00:24:44the beginning, to run themselves to become
00:24:47presidential candidates or vice presidential candidates in 2029,
00:24:50right? Can they do it alone like that? Or do they not have to conspire
00:24:54with existing political parties? If all political parties can, which political
00:24:58party will support them to become presidential candidates
00:25:01in 2029? Well, if we can't
00:25:04prove this second one, then there's another interest. Who is this?
00:25:07A bigger, stronger interest, which means it's above them. We're not
00:25:11saying this has to be
00:25:15up. So now, this needs to be proven
00:25:18by Mr. Suidi and the criminal investigation unit
00:25:22what was the intention of the
00:25:25high-ranking officials who carried out this wiretapping, who ordered
00:25:29this, who controlled this, for what purpose? So that
00:25:33the public can be more open like this. So for me, in the
00:25:37future, don't let the police institution be dragged
00:25:40into things that ultimately
00:25:44lead to wiretapping, which clearly will damage
00:25:47the good name of the police organization. The police,
00:25:50which has been built for years and has reached the age
00:25:54of 80 years, something like that. So I said, okay,
00:25:57my analysis is that there must be a higher intellectual actor
00:26:01than the general,
00:26:03but I can't reveal this yet because the investigation is still ongoing
00:26:07like that. And especially if this
00:26:11didn't happen since 2025, but according to some
00:26:14former officials,
00:26:17it has even been going on long before 2025.
00:26:21Bang Herdi, actually, if
00:26:24we talk about the lawful interception management system,
00:26:27it's legal, right? It's a system
00:26:31to manage the central management of listening or monitoring communications legally. So,
00:26:34how can we prevent this legal system from being exploited to
00:26:38carry out wiretapping for
00:26:41certain interests or being misused, Bang
00:26:45Herdi?
00:26:48Yes, I think it's important for me to clarify that in the concept of a legal
00:26:51system for implementing wiretapping, I think it's also
00:26:55important to be careful, because the instrument of wiretapping is
00:26:59vulnerable to infringing on the basic
00:27:03rights of citizens, as I explained earlier, because it is the privacy of the basic
00:27:07rights of citizens guaranteed by law, then the concept of wiretapping must
00:27:10also be regulated as detailed as possible. That's why in
00:27:14various laws that adopt wiretapping, they actually
00:27:18regulate the monitoring system strictly, because the danger
00:27:21is this: if then the design of monitoring through the wiretapping
00:27:25system is carried out without certain qualifications,
00:27:28then it will tend to be abusive. Moreover,
00:27:33given the authority to conduct wiretapping does not carry out the wiretapping
00:27:36process as per its function and authority, what's happening now
00:27:39is actually like that, where there is a group, yes, I can
00:27:43say a group, of high-ranking officers who then carry out the wiretapping
00:27:46process, but if we look and read, actually, what I
00:27:50mentioned earlier about genealogy, don't forget,
00:27:54Mr. Sigit was actually still in his capacity as
00:27:57police chief when the wiretapping process was carried out if it
00:28:01really started in 2025. That's why I said earlier, this is actually
00:28:04about like or dislike, there is the influence
00:28:08of political factions that are currently estranged,
00:28:11between Prabowo and Jokowi, but
00:28:15between both internal and political factions is useless
00:28:19for the public, because until now we have not found
00:28:22a single sentence or a single situation where we
00:28:26can get an explanation of what about the basic rights of citizens. Okay,
00:28:30for example, wiretapping against the president, it's illegal. Legally, three suspects.
00:28:34The question is, wiretapping against civil society, against activists,
00:28:39being done by friends in the police, for example, there's nothing at all. So the scope
00:28:43of wiretapping, I always believe that if it is managed by
00:28:47an institution that is not capable, it is vulnerable to
00:28:50being used as a tool of power, then
00:28:54wiretapping will end up being a situation that
00:28:57causes the basic rights of citizens to be seized or an abusive action
00:29:00by the institution.
00:29:02That's the first thing. The second thing I want to say
00:29:05is this: if we read
00:29:08about the purpose of wiretapping, that's what should be used as
00:29:12the basis, right? It's hard not to say
00:29:15that if then the conversation leads to treason
00:29:19and so on, then what's important to ensure is what the purpose
00:29:22actually is. If we read about Mr. Sigit and his fellow high-ranking
00:29:25officers who have been designated as suspects in illegal
00:29:29wiretapping, they wouldn't be doing it just for fun, right?
00:29:33They certainly have a purpose. Now, this problem of purpose is what needs to be traced by
00:29:36law enforcement officials, police investigators. What is the motive, what
00:29:40is the intention? Thus, if we understand the motive and intention
00:29:44of the wiretapping, we will know who is involved. If
00:29:49was discussed, whether there were, for example, clear preliminary actions
00:29:53as mentioned by Mr. Ouro earlier in Article 160 of the Criminal Code,
00:29:56in Article 160 of the Criminal Code, it is clear that there are clear
00:30:00preliminary actions, for example, taking up arms or there is a criminal
00:30:03conspiracy related to Articles 191, 192, and
00:30:07193 of the Criminal Code. Is he, for example, planning
00:30:10to kill the president or make the president and vice president unable
00:30:14to exercise their power, or is it, for example,
00:30:17related to the separation of the sovereign territory
00:30:20of the Republic of Indonesia or perhaps there is indeed a plan to
00:30:24overthrow the legitimate government, well, how
00:30:27to understand that is only by uncovering
00:30:30the direction of the conversation, who ordered it, who was involved in the conversation,
00:30:34and what was actually discussed. Only then can we conclude that
00:30:38there is indeed a tendency towards that. But for me, this is actually about many
00:30:41political calculations that need to be confirmed in the legal realm,
00:30:45because no matter how wild political conversations are, if they are
00:30:48not legally confirmed, then issues like this, I'm
00:30:51worried that the wiretapping issue will just pass by,
00:30:55so it will just disappear like that,
00:30:58right.