Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00anti-Semitic ideology, and
00:00:03what has been happening since October 7,
00:00:052023,
00:00:07are attempts by Israel and defenders of Israel to
00:00:11silence critics
00:00:13of Israeli politics on university
00:00:17campuses across America and Europe.
00:00:20They claim, and simply claim that such
00:00:23protests against violence are anti-Semitic. A large
00:00:26majority of them were not. And this created
00:00:30a boomerang effect and
00:00:32these protests were silenced due to
00:00:35accusations of anti-Semitism, and so they
00:00:39made space for true
00:00:41anti-Semitism, not just for accusations
00:00:45on that topic, so they somehow
00:00:4850% of that gave permission for the growth
00:00:51of anti-Semitism,
00:00:55which is now attributed
00:00:58to some people who are assumed
00:01:02to be Jewish, nobody asks who they are, what their
00:01:05actual opinion is, and currently, as a result
00:01:09of all of this, in America and
00:01:12Europe,
00:01:14there are those who traditionally have
00:01:17anti-Semitic claims regarding Jewish
00:01:20financing, dual loyalty, that
00:01:24Jews support Israel and
00:01:27more than just national interests. of the country where they
00:01:31live,
00:01:32simply, Israel's activities
00:01:36have given permission for such a rise
00:01:39in anti-Semitism. From the very beginning, the state
00:01:42of Israel claims that it is the representative
00:01:46of Jews worldwide, and if they
00:01:49behaved as they should and if they
00:01:53were considered a refuge for social
00:01:56justice and the renewal of Jewish
00:01:58identity. That would be fine, however, if
00:02:02Israel behaves as it behaves today, violently
00:02:06and racistly, precisely because
00:02:08they claim to be representatives of Jews worldwide, without
00:02:12asking for their opinion, that gives
00:02:16an excuse for anti-Semitism.
00:02:19Anti-Semitism existed even before the creation
00:02:22of the state of Israel.
00:02:26Simply, even if Israel no longer exists, anti-Semitism
00:02:30will still be there. Israel gives the best excuse today
00:02:33to anti-Semites worldwide,
00:02:36and one way to stop that is for
00:02:38reform.
00:02:41So, if I understood you correctly, uh,
00:02:44correct me if I'm wrong, according to your assessment,
00:02:48Israel actually today,
00:02:51uh, generates anti-Semitic sentiments worldwide.
00:02:55svijeta.
00:03:01Absolutely,
00:03:02yes.
00:03:05We'll return to the conversation after a short commercial break. Stay with us.
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00:05:31Omer Bartov, probably
00:05:33one of the most famous and very likely
00:05:37the most influential Holocaust
00:05:40historian, is with us... in the show "Beyond
00:05:43the Frame". Professor, you are a genocide
00:05:46historian and you choose your words very precisely.
00:05:50The term genocide has almost been normalized in the Western public
00:05:54space when talking about Gaza. However, there are
00:05:57lawyers and international law experts who
00:06:00claim that, despite the devastating
00:06:03nature and massive scale of the crimes, the legal
00:06:06criteria for genocide have not been met. Is there
00:06:10term will weaken its historical and legal weight?
00:06:26Yes, it's true that ever since
00:06:29Lemkin coined this
00:06:32term in 1944, a Polish,
00:06:35Polish-Jewish lawyer who fled from Poland to
00:06:39America, and ever since the UN
00:06:43adopted that term through the 1948
00:06:47convention,
00:06:49that concept is often used
00:06:52to express
00:06:55horror towards certain
00:06:58crimes. It is not always used precisely in accordance with
00:07:02the definition. However, there is
00:07:04a definition
00:07:07contained in the UN Convention of
00:07:091948.
00:07:12And that definition must be applied to
00:07:16different cases. In the case of Gaza, I say this in
00:07:20my
00:07:20own name.
00:07:24I have thought about this
00:07:27for a long time,
00:07:30already in November
00:07:312023.
00:07:35After 10,000 people
00:07:38had already been killed in Gaza during the first four weeks
00:07:43of violence, I said then that there was evidence of
00:07:47crimes against humanity, that if the operation was not stopped,
00:07:51it could become
00:07:52genocidal.
00:07:56Israeli political and military leaders
00:07:59had already made some statements that speak of genocidal
00:08:03intent and incitement to genocide.
00:08:06However, my warnings,
00:08:08and the warnings of others,
00:08:12Israel did not listen to them,
00:08:15nor did their main defenders, America. And by
00:08:19May of that year, I was already coming to the conclusion
00:08:23that simply, evidence of
00:08:27intent is now emerging. And the very definition
00:08:30of genocide from the UN Convention
00:08:34is that it represents activities carried out with the intent to
00:08:37destroy a specific national, ethnic, religious,
00:08:40or racial group, partially or in whole, the group
00:08:44as such.
00:08:47And when we talk about what Israel was doing in Gaza, they
00:08:51expressed their intention
00:08:53at the very beginning. The International
00:08:57Court
00:08:58of Justice
00:09:02spoke of intent
00:09:05that could be proven between October 2023 and the summer
00:09:09of 2024, because it was clear
00:09:13that Israel's goal was ethnic cleansing,
00:09:16that it would become impossible for the population to live
00:09:20in Gaza anymore. They were systematically relocating from
00:09:23north to south, and everything was being
00:09:26destroyed - houses, universities,
00:09:30mosques, schools, museums,
00:09:32parks, electricity, water
00:09:36- in order to prevent that group from
00:09:39continuing to live there after the violence ended.
00:09:44Ethnic cleansing did not succeed because Palestinians have nowhere
00:09:48to go. The border with Egypt was closed,
00:09:52and of course they were not allowed to cross into Israel. As in
00:09:56many other cases of genocide, it started as
00:10:00ethnic cleansing, which
00:10:04turned into a genocidal operation. When I
00:10:07wrote that in August
00:10:092024,
00:10:12everyone agreed with me, but many were
00:10:16still reserved. And when I wrote that
00:10:19again in the New York Times in July
00:10:222025, I think
00:10:26most lawyers, international scholars
00:10:30agreed with me, those who study genocide,
00:10:33and there is that
00:10:35consensus.
00:10:39Of course, it's hard to ascertain and we don't have all
00:10:42the facts, but I think by now, today,
00:10:46most experts consider it to be
00:10:49genocide, and we don't know
00:10:52in what direction things are now moving. So
00:10:56it's not all over.
00:10:58The population in Gaza lives in terrible conditions
00:11:01in less than half of the space in
00:11:05Gaza, because it was one of the most densely populated
00:11:09parts of the world before the war. Now they live in less than
00:11:13territory, without basic
00:11:16living conditions and for
00:11:19survival. So it's still
00:11:22not over, but I think so.
00:11:30It seems that after October 7, a kind of moral suspension
00:11:33occurred, as if Israel's trauma
00:11:37became for many an argument that
00:11:40suspends universal rules. It reminds
00:11:44me a little of the idea
00:11:48that ideology works best precisely
00:11:51when we think we are acting out of pure moral
00:11:55necessity and duty. Is
00:11:58Israel today trapped in its own trauma, perhaps?
00:12:10Yes, I wrote about it in my
00:12:13book,
00:12:16not only Israeli politicians and
00:12:19the far right and those who are currently in power,
00:12:23I would say that a large majority of Israelis, even those who are
00:12:27more inclined to the left, are now
00:12:29trapped in that idea of their own
00:12:32sacrifice. It must be
00:12:36said. The Hamas attack on October 7,
00:12:392023, was a war crime and a crime against
00:12:43humanity. Around 800 civilians were
00:12:47massacred. Women, children,
00:12:50elderly people. There were
00:12:53reported cases of rape. And that feeling
00:12:56of insecurity and rage that was created
00:13:00after that, Israeli
00:13:02media and government used to
00:13:06present it as a Nazi act similar
00:13:09to the Holocaust.
00:13:12And they talked about Hamas as Nazis, and all that created
00:13:16a feeling of sacrifice, danger, and the need
00:13:20for revenge, for endless,
00:13:23unlimited revenge.
00:13:25And with the complete destruction of Gaza, and there was
00:13:28a consensus in Israel about it, it's not just government
00:13:32policy.
00:13:34That of course means it's impossible to look at
00:13:38things rationally.
00:13:41Israel would usually not get away with
00:13:43it, because many thought that at
00:13:47some point Israel would try to ethnically cleanse
00:13:50Palestine, but it was thought that after a few
00:13:54weeks, the international community would get involved and stop
00:13:57Israel. However, that didn't
00:13:59happen now,
00:14:01and that, it simply contributed to that feeling
00:14:05of victimhood in Israel. You know well from experience in your
00:14:09region that it's the best way to justify
00:14:12violence, when you claim you're always right
00:14:16because of what was done to you in the past,
00:14:19that your violence is therefore justified.
00:14:22And
00:14:25also the international community did not
00:14:28stop Israel, not only did it not stop them, but it
00:14:32helped them, providing weapons,
00:14:34economic, diplomatic aid.
00:14:37And now we are in
00:14:40the current
00:14:43situation where the state of Israel
00:14:47can no longer rely on the memory of
00:14:49the Holocaust to justify its
00:14:52actions.
00:14:55Because simply, when you use the memory of the Holocaust to
00:14:58justify genocide, you
00:15:00undermine, you undermine your own legitimacy, and
00:15:04I think Israel will long-term have to find
00:15:08another way not
00:15:11to refer anymore to the horrors of the Holocaust
00:15:14to justify its genocidal
00:15:17activities. You grew up with the memory of
00:15:20the Holocaust, you served in the IDF, and today
00:15:24you speak of Israeli crimes, with language that many in
00:15:27Israel probably perceive as
00:15:30betrayal. How does Professor Bartov
00:15:34psychologically endure the moment when...
00:15:37he concludes, uh, he finds that the community
00:15:41he belongs to no longer represents the values he believed in?
00:15:57It's difficult, of course.
00:16:01I don't think I'm the only one who feels
00:16:04that way. I have friends, colleagues in Israel
00:16:10who are brave and
00:16:12speak loudly about this, but they are
00:16:15a minority.
00:16:18And they
00:16:19are really
00:16:22deeply disappointed by the events in
00:16:26the state they once believed in, in which they
00:16:29invested so much energy. Like me, I was
00:16:33four years in the army, seriously wounded,
00:16:36I could say that I shed blood for that
00:16:39state.
00:16:41I spent the first half of my life there, I have friends
00:16:45and family there and I truly care deeply
00:16:48about them and it is truly very
00:16:51difficult. What keeps me and many
00:16:55others going is the conviction that nothing
00:16:58is inevitable and that things can
00:17:01change,
00:17:04but first you have to face the facts,
00:17:08with what is currently happening, because if
00:17:11we don't acknowledge the facts, we cannot move
00:17:13forward. And when we acknowledge
00:17:17the facts, then we can think about how to
00:17:20fix it. We cannot bring back all those who
00:17:24died, we cannot undo the suffering,
00:17:27but if you recognize the basic
00:17:30problem, and the problem is in the relationship between
00:17:33Israel and Palestine, where we had
00:17:37a situation from Israel's side, then
00:17:40you realize that this is a problem that can be solved in order to
00:17:44improve life for both Jews and
00:17:47Palestinians. Then
00:17:51you can say what might not be popular
00:17:54now, but can help people long-term.
00:17:57So then we can face
00:18:00reality and build a better future. When
00:18:03you talk to young Americans and European students, do you
00:18:07have a feeling that
00:18:10the attitude towards Israel has irreversibly
00:18:12changed, and if so, what
00:18:16does that mean long-term for the very idea of Israel as a project that for decades
00:18:20depended on the moral support
00:18:23of the West?
00:18:30Yes,
00:18:35yes, there has been a change in Europe
00:18:39and in America, you see it among young people and generally,
00:18:42i
00:18:45and there is an interesting division
00:18:48between political, intellectual, and media
00:18:51elites,
00:18:55those largest media outlets that still
00:18:58largely protect Israel, and public
00:19:02opinion. Public opinion has
00:19:04changed.
00:19:07In my opinion, numerous surveys show this. What does
00:19:10that mean?
00:19:15I think that's a good thing in a certain
00:19:19sense.
00:19:21The main
00:19:24problem was that
00:19:28many of Israel's spheres of influence
00:19:31were defined in Washington, and
00:19:34as long as that was the case, there were no restrictions.
00:19:38Israel could decide there was no
00:19:41diplomacy or politics at all. They could choose
00:19:45a combination
00:19:46of propaganda,
00:19:49meaning that any criticism of Israel was anti-Semitic,
00:19:53and they could choose to use violence,
00:19:56bombs, and never work
00:20:00on resolving that fundamental
00:20:02issue. If the boundaries
00:20:05of Israeli authority were returned to Jerusalem where
00:20:09they belong, Israel would no longer have a choice
00:20:12but to return to politics. And when
00:20:16they do that and when they understand the limits
00:20:19of their authority, then it will be
00:20:23possible for new political
00:20:26leadership to emerge among Jews, but also among
00:20:30Palestinians. It is true, Israel has
00:20:33lost much of what it previously had and will have
00:20:37to somehow get it back. It can only get it back
00:20:41by reforming,
00:20:45redefining itself and saying that
00:20:47Zionism has now become an ideology of machismo and
00:20:51violence, that we reject that
00:20:53ideology, that we will re-form our state
00:20:57as a state of all citizens,
00:21:01based on moral, ethical, democratic
00:21:05standards. That will take a long time, but that is the only way
00:21:09for Israel to regain its place among the nations
00:21:12of the world. What is the political
00:21:15landscape in Israel today? Are there in the opposition's
00:21:20ranks, uh, political, moral
00:21:24voices that try to draw attention
00:21:28to the scale of the crimes being committed by the current
00:21:31government?
00:21:41Unfortunately, no.
00:21:45Today in Israel we have
00:21:47a coalition that belongs to the deeply
00:21:51corrupt and
00:21:53violent right wing.
00:21:56The people who want to
00:21:59replace it represent a coalition
00:22:02of parties, some of which are
00:22:05right-wing and are connected to Netanyahu's
00:22:08party. Some belong to the center
00:22:12and somewhat to the left.
00:22:16They are somewhat less corrupt.
00:22:20They could offer some solutions for Israeli
00:22:24society, among other things,
00:22:28for Palestinian
00:22:30citizens who are under enormous pressure from the current
00:22:33government. However, they have not made
00:22:37any credible plan on what to do with
00:22:40the occupation and oppression of Palestinians who are
00:22:44under Israeli military rule. They have not offered
00:22:47any ideas for Gaza.
00:22:53And some of them are just as extreme as
00:22:56members of the government itself.
00:22:59From that perspective,
00:23:01a change of government would not bring any significant
00:23:05change in Israeli policy regarding Palestine,
00:23:09but in that way it would somehow
00:23:13clear up the deep corruption we've seen in
00:23:15every corner of Israeli society during two
00:23:19decades of Netanyahu's rule. That
00:23:22would be a beginning and an opening of pathways for
00:23:26more moderate voices in Israeli
00:23:30society itself. However, the main change
00:23:33in Israeli politics can only come through
00:23:37external pressure. Because in Israeli
00:23:40society itself or Palestinian society, there is currently no
00:23:43such dynamic that would offer
00:23:47a fundamental paradigmatic political
00:23:50solution. That can only come under pressure from outside, mostly from
00:23:53the United States. I expect that to
00:23:57happen in the next day or
00:24:00two, but I believe that the new
00:24:03American administration, whether
00:24:06Republican or Democratic, will
00:24:09be much
00:24:11more critical
00:24:14regarding its wartime support
00:24:17for Israel. Opinion is changing
00:24:20in America, and when Israel is exposed
00:24:24to greater pressure in the form of sanctions due to its
00:24:26behavior - military, economic, political
00:24:30sanctions -
00:24:33that will bring the beginning of changes in Israeli
00:24:36society. So, political change
00:24:40would not necessarily imply
00:24:44the necessary moral renewal, not just
00:24:48of politics in Israel, but moral renewal of society.
00:25:01I hope that in
00:25:04October,
00:25:07the current government will be replaced. I hope this for personal reasons, because
00:25:10I would like to go to
00:25:13Israel, I don't intend to go there
00:25:17while Netanyahu is prime minister.
00:25:22And as long as we have the current Minister of National Security,
00:25:26I don't think I would personally feel safe
00:25:28there. I would like that change to happen,
00:25:32but it will not
00:25:35bring big changes in Israeli politics. That will be
00:25:38the beginning of a process. Netanyahu has been prime minister
00:25:42for so long. Most Israelis don't remember
00:25:45anyone else ever being prime minister. It
00:25:48must
00:25:50change.
00:25:55Maybe the moral and political
00:25:58pillars of Israeli society will
00:26:02begin to clear up in some way. That will be
00:26:04a big first step, but there will not be a big
00:26:08change. You must understand that
00:26:12Israeli society is currently in
00:26:16a state of denial. They are not able
00:26:18to face the crimes committed
00:26:22in Gaza, which are committed daily in the West
00:26:25Bank, with the displacement of over a million people
00:26:29and in Lebanon.
00:26:33You have a whole series of villages that have been destroyed,
00:26:36and the gasification
00:26:40of Lebanon. So, Israeli
00:26:43society is in deep denial. That will not disappear when
00:26:47the government changes. That
00:26:49must come exclusively through pain, much more
00:26:53pain, like a kind of shock
00:26:56therapy, and that can only come
00:26:58from outside. It is necessary for Israeli society
00:27:03to face the mistakes of the past in order
00:27:07to reform internally. That
00:27:10is a much longer process. It will not happen
00:27:13in October, even if the government changes.
00:27:16In
00:27:19the best case, we have a 50% chance that it
00:27:22will happen. I ask myself, can a society that has been
00:27:26organized around security for decades
00:27:30even imagine peace without an enemy?
00:27:43That is something that people in Israel have been saying
00:27:46for a long time, that enemy holds the whole
00:27:50society together. As I wrote in my
00:27:54book, there are two elements
00:27:57that have become crucial for Israeli society and
00:28:01for understanding
00:28:04itself. One is
00:28:06the Holocaust
00:28:09which began to play a large role in
00:28:12Israeli identity, not immediately after
00:28:16the Holocaust, but from the 80s
00:28:19onwards.
00:28:23And as Israel
00:28:25became militarily superior to
00:28:29its neighbors, the Holocaust began to play a
00:28:32role as a kind of social glue, which
00:28:36bound together opposing
00:28:38factions in Israeli
00:28:41society,
00:28:43Jews from different parts, young and
00:28:47old. So the Holocaust as something that
00:28:50happened in the past, but as an immediate
00:28:53threat, a threat of extermination.
00:28:56Of course, that is not true,
00:28:59it is not true. Since 1973, Israel
00:29:03has not fought any
00:29:05foreign army. There were only
00:29:09guerrilla organizations that were not capable of
00:29:12threatening Israel itself. However, it
00:29:15became the main element of Israeli
00:29:18rhetoric, both internally and externally. The Holocaust played a very
00:29:22important role in solidifying Israeli
00:29:25society in a negative way.
00:29:28And the other thing that changed Israeli society
00:29:32over time is the occupation,
00:29:35the dehumanization of others,
00:29:39because when you rule over others, you must
00:29:41dehumanize them, and while you are doing that,
00:29:44you dehumanize yourself. themselves. Decades
00:29:47of Israelis, men, women
00:29:50participated in the occupation
00:29:53and oppression of others, because that's how
00:29:56you do it, you put people in one place, you show them that you are
00:29:59the boss, so, you treat them like... people who have fewer
00:30:03rights or who have no rights at all
00:30:06it had consequences for
00:30:10society in Israel. Can Israel be
00:30:13two
00:30:15elements?
00:30:18obvious, but we must
00:30:22historical cases, for example, France
00:30:25against Algeria, when they
00:30:28smatrali da Alžir mora ostati francuski nakon tog.
00:30:32horrible war, when
00:30:35ljudi, Francuska je konačno otišla i do
00:30:39Alžira i tek tada se moglo modernizovati, postati bolje
00:30:42citizens,
00:30:46the end of the Second World
00:30:49rata, ko bi pomislio da
00:30:52Njemačka, kojom su vladali nacisti koja je
00:30:55uništila čitavu Evropu, ko bi
00:30:58pomislio da se ona može.