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00:00:15Arrests of top police chiefs, leaders of state
00:00:18institutions, businessmen close to the former government, controversial
00:00:22pardons, and finally wiretapping and surveillance
00:00:25of journalists, prosecutors. This is what Serbia looks like ten days
00:00:28after the elections. the defeat of the progressives, what we
00:00:32lived through for the last 14 years, is all this just the tip
00:00:35of the iceberg, why are we only now witnessing the reactions
00:00:39of the prosecutor's office and the police, and how to get to institutions that will
00:00:43work regardless of who is at Andrić's Wreath, i.e., in
00:00:46the presidency, who is in the government of Serbia, i.e., in
00:00:50Nemanjina. I am Ivan Momčilović Odobašić, N1
00:00:53direct begins.
00:01:01"Judge Miodrag Majić, prosecutor Vukašin Vujčić, former
00:01:04head of the department for secret surveillance and monitoring, and now lawyer Milenko
00:01:08Zarić, they are guests of N1, good evening and thank
00:01:12you all for being here. Mr. Zarić, I would start with
00:01:15you, so you were
00:01:18at one time the head of the department for
00:01:21secret monitoring and surveillance, uh,
00:01:24these documents were published two days ago by Radar, which
00:01:27document..." the extent
00:01:31of wiretapping, probably just the tip
00:01:34of the iceberg, but we learn that
00:01:37they not only wiretapped, but physically followed journalists, that they
00:01:41bugged their apartments, uh, the prosecutor for
00:01:45organized crime in the case of canopies, how did we
00:01:49get into a situation where journalists, investigative
00:01:52journalists, prosecutors who should defend the public
00:01:56interest, became enemies of the state, i.e...
00:02:00uh spies who should be wiretapped and
00:02:04followed in that way, well, I simply think that the political power
00:02:08at one point really wanted to use all
00:02:12the resources of the security sector and the police
00:02:15in order to still maintain
00:02:19power and help
00:02:22themselves, first of all, in that sense, for me, it's only
00:02:25surprising that it was so massive, considering that it
00:02:29is a sensitive measure that is quite
00:02:33invasive, but that it was used
00:02:36so massively, and that is a surprise for
00:02:38me. And the state
00:02:42of crime in society and what we have now speaks for itself, that there was no room
00:02:46or resources for anyone to deal with
00:02:49what is the main activity,
00:02:52as we say, of the security service in terms of combating organized crime
00:02:56and also of the police in suppressing crime. So, in
00:03:00particular, when the student
00:03:04protest started and that movement and so on, of course, they
00:03:08were the first to be targeted, and thus journalists
00:03:11were targeted, journalists as someone who is in a way
00:03:14a control of power who should
00:03:18by asking questions and investigating what is not
00:03:21talked about, inform the public, they found
00:03:24themselves under the attack of these measures of secret
00:03:27surveillance, communication and tracking. What is characteristic
00:03:30here is that,
00:03:33specifically in Radar, the full scope
00:03:37of measures, the full scope of measures, was applied. Please explain that to us, how many people participate, so you
00:03:40worked for about ten years, you were the
00:03:43head of the department for secret surveillance and
00:03:47tracking, please explain to us how that looks in practice, how many people
00:03:51are needed for that, how did they get into their apartments
00:03:55to install listening devices
00:03:58there. So, how does that look in practice,
00:04:01it's probably even more, I worked until
00:04:042013, so that job, after that I was a lawyer,
00:04:08but I believe that now technology has gone much further,
00:04:12very easy, yes, it's very easy to
00:04:15get to that, but it's interesting here that it requires
00:04:19quite serious engagement of both personnel and
00:04:22technology, analytics, processing,
00:04:25uh uh, so you had surveillance, communication, phone,
00:04:30all other, all other communications, by all other technical
00:04:33means, what is interesting is that you had surveillance of
00:04:37open spaces, closed rooms where access is
00:04:40restricted, you had physical surveillance,
00:04:43physical surveillance is precisely undertaken so that you can further
00:04:46apply technical means in open or closed spaces,
00:04:50so they were certainly not wiretapped only in
00:04:54Radar or students in the amphitheater, which is an
00:04:57incredible exception that...
00:05:00It didn't happen that an amphitheater
00:05:02of a university was bugged
00:05:06for reasons that these uh those
00:05:09children are the greatest butchers of the Second World War,
00:05:13they call them Ustaše, for that reason as the greatest state
00:05:16enemies, devices are installed there that massively
00:05:20control, this controls access, what
00:05:23they talk about, who comes, where they meet, when they meet and so
00:05:27on, so here in Radar it's interesting that, uh,
00:05:31you know, when you want to uh specifically follow
00:05:34someone, you want to know everything about them, you can do that, but the problem
00:05:38is that here you learn all that
00:05:41about others. who are not covered absolutely
00:05:45by that uh measure of surveillance or court order, how the court order
00:05:48was given, possibly, I believe, the director said that
00:05:52they had a legal one, so they had an order,
00:05:56the question is who initiated it, for what reason, with what
00:05:59facts, who approved it further
00:06:03in the service, who in the end, did the court have full
00:06:06information about what was being done, is it true that, for example,
00:06:09the phone numbers were precisely the phone numbers they used, or are there some
00:06:13numbers of people who have nothing to do with that case, what does
00:06:17that mean, is it possible that something was planted, is it certain that there is a possibility
00:06:20you see, it's impossible if you have, let's say,
00:06:24malicious approach, there was certainly a lot
00:06:28of abuse here, certainly the most
00:06:31here the law was formally needed only to cover the proceedings, everything else
00:06:35probably exceeded the limits of authority or
00:06:38what should be done and here we had
00:06:41Radar, so... there is uh an editor, two
00:06:44journalists, but I believe that the whole editorial staff
00:06:47absolutely everything was followed, when the
00:06:50journalists left, they had to go to some uh, let's
00:06:53say to the one who gives them information, uh,
00:06:57all that was followed in their daily lives, that's right, working, so
00:07:01their job, working their job of, let's say, journalistic
00:07:04work, the service considered that as
00:07:07jeopardizing national security, state
00:07:11security, so it was necessary to monitor journalists, as
00:07:15it is necessary, let's ask Mr. Majić, I mean, you are in
00:07:18the appellate court, not in the one that would approve such cases,
00:07:22but you have judicial experience for so many
00:07:25years, uh, how can a judge
00:07:29approve such a
00:07:32request, right?
00:07:35Now, as it was said earlier, it would be necessary to see what those
00:07:39requests looked like, what was written
00:07:42in them, of course, one should not exclude the possibility that something
00:07:46was misrepresented, but on the other hand,
00:07:50one should not uh be too
00:07:53naive, we lived in a society where at all key positions
00:07:57loyalists of the previous government were brought in,
00:08:00so in the judiciary, so in the courts,
00:08:04prosecutor's office, there was absolutely no
00:08:07chance that at the position of court president, at the position
00:08:10of prosecutor, at the position of someone who would decide, especially in such
00:08:13measures, anyone would appear who was not thoroughly vetted by
00:08:17that government, for whom it was not said there, yes,
00:08:21that one is ours, he is guaranteed, so, I'm not saying this for the
00:08:25first time today, we've been saying it for the previous 14
00:08:28years, that's why it's not surprising this, at least not to me, I believe not to others
00:08:32exactly what we talked about in those previous 14 years,
00:08:35we few who said something about it, here, as you
00:08:39saw, as soon as the government changes, suddenly now...
00:08:42"it becomes clear who the suspects are and
00:08:45scandals surface, as if nothing was known about it, of course it
00:08:49was known, those same people who served to approve
00:08:52such measures, to persecute people in the prosecutor's office who were
00:08:56on the opposite side, those were, well, they were
00:09:00there to hold back these cases that today
00:09:04we see, so that nothing of that comes out to the public, that
00:09:07it doesn't appear in the procedure and so on, of course
00:09:11with..." Every day there will be more and more of those
00:09:14who will claim that all those years they knew they
00:09:18had no opportunity to work because of this, this, this and that,
00:09:22this one who, well, woke up, which is the best
00:09:26proof of what we claimed, that we were absolutely
00:09:29a captured state, a state captured by
00:09:33an organized criminal group that, well,
00:09:36ruled in this area, all the elements, I was on
00:09:40Friday, in the impression of the week, two days before... Bore said that we really,
00:09:43in the mildest judicial terms, have
00:09:46a reasonable suspicion that an organized criminal group is leading
00:09:50us. I would now, of course, not bother
00:09:54the viewers with theoretical and practical aspects of what that
00:09:57means, but we see this in the first 10 days, what we see,
00:10:01I'm afraid that what we will see in the coming period will
00:10:04fully confirm that thesis and even
00:10:08that level of suspicion, as we say, in the judiciary,
00:10:12will go to a much, much higher level. We
00:10:15really lived instead of in a state, in a regulated, legally
00:10:19regulated system, in a system of organized criminal
00:10:22organization that in... that
00:10:25included most institutions, placed
00:10:29people who were its accomplices to a greater or lesser
00:10:32extent, that will show,
00:10:36time will show, as we see, from day to
00:10:39day everything is being revealed, secret monitoring and I just
00:10:43want to say that what you started the show with, in my opinion, justifiably,
00:10:46and its illegality
00:10:49are absolutely not exclusively a specific
00:10:53feature of this government, but judging by all accounts, this government
00:10:57brought it, as well as many other illegalities, to perfection, in what sense?
00:11:00In terms of scope, in terms of the number of people who were involved
00:11:04in those illegalities, in the end, in terms of
00:11:08us passive people who were watched, followed,
00:11:11wiretapped every step of the way, that I am completely,
00:11:14of course, sure, I even had information and so on,
00:11:18but I want to tell you, as my predecessor just
00:11:21said, who understands it much better.
00:11:25Obviously, the number of people who were followed, even through those who were allegedly
00:11:28primarily followed, was incredibly large. You
00:11:31therefore had a state that followed uh uh
00:11:35the majority of that part of its population that, according to its
00:11:39criteria, disagreed with it, which
00:11:42is of course an additional question and why more and more, and I have long
00:11:46advocated for it, the question of our security
00:11:50service, the way it was formed, uh
00:11:53its tasks, the way those tasks were turned into what
00:11:57we have today, that we actually have a security service that instead of
00:12:01protecting us from external attacks from terrorism, from dangers to this
00:12:04society, it actually deals with since 1945
00:12:08to today with a part of the population that I consider
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